Multi-Pitch Rappelling- Potentially Fatal Errors to Avoid
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- čas přidán 7. 01. 2019
- Learn more at: expeditiontraining.org/
This video was reviewed by 3 or more IFMGA/AMGA Certified Guides and/or SIET Instructors and produced by industry professionals. However, this video may contain misinformation, may lack important details, may assume a certain knowledge base by the viewer, and is not intended for novices. SIET and it's employees and affiliates, recommend professional training for anyone taking part in mountaineering/climbing/skiing activities and attempting to implement skills demonstrated in these videos. Videos produced by SIET should not be used as a substitute for professional instruction!
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these are consistently the best instructional climbing videos on CZcams.
Thanks! We do our best to provide quality instruction for our community. Glad you're enjoying them!
Nice demo, but what are the potentially fatal multipitch rappel errors to avoid?
not tying knots in the ends of the rope, not physically checking when changing systems.
Also, not having a third hand or a firefighter’s belay.
Basically all the stuff they didn’t show and decided to write 😂
Thank for taking the time to put these up. I've found them incredibly helpful - the stats and examples are very helpful.
Marisol, this was the most fascinating instructional climbing vid that I have seen. All about committment & back up plans.
Similar to many scuba diving accidents. So many different pieces of equipment and safety procedures that it end up creating a safety hazard.
Good video. One improvement i could see for teaching would be to have your rope and tethers be significantly different colors; with the rope being red/pinkish, and the tethers being rope of the same diameter but more orange-ish, and with the video being at "Red" Rock, it did get a little bit visually confusing/blurry
I fully agree, that was my oversight, I didn't realize that issue until we got the crag and we only had 2 ropes to choose from. Next time...
Great video.. clear, short, precise...
Thanks a lot for sharing this with us. By far the best climbing related content on YT!
Thanks D K, much appreciated!
Excellent instruction, I send people links to these SIET videos when needed
Nicely explained!
Very well done. Thank you.
Excellent.... Thank you...
Like many have said these are some of the best instructional videos out there. One thing you could have added, and might be showing in another video, is for both climbers to rig / set up their rappel together so they can both double check each others system before they separate from each other. It takes a very long pas to lower onto your new rappel system, but if possible it allows both climbers to inspect each other as they both transfer from one system to another. Great videos - keep posting.
That's a great point Oliver! Unfortunatly we can't cover every useful technique in one vid.
Nice video, from Colombia we are learning. Thanks a lot
Wow, wished I would of found these before I paid someone to teach me this. Actually I take that back. It was a lot better to have an instructor in person making sure I don’t kill my self or others. Proper instructions is just that proper. Thank you for being a proper instructor.
You guys are doing a great public service putting this stuff out in such high quality for people to learn from. Just this weekend at the crag I found myself teaching some basic lowering and rappelling techniques to some climbers who didn't realize the danger they were putting themselves in. Being able to link newer climbers to material like yours goes a long way towards education and keeping people alive. Thanks for the excellent videos.
That's great that you're helping spread the word on how to be safer out there, thanks!
Great content! Thank you for the clear, concise instruction in a sea of misinformation.... Always reliable. What size Petzl slings and carabiners are you using for this quad anchor?
Indiesicle Thanks for the feedback! The quad was made out of a 180cm dyneema sling- Petzl’s PUR’ANNEAU, 48 grams.
Great vid
Finally subbed due to consistently great content.
Thanks, glad you've joined us!
same
BITD we never backed up a rap (and never wore helmets) even on El Cap wall routes. I think we were lucky to have survived. These days we mostly all wear helmets (still working on one of our friends) and now I'm rappelling with an extended device and a third-hand back-up, though I use a prussik knot. Great video, once again.
This is a must see for anyone thinking about rappelling someday.
You are not only looking after your own safety but also your partner's !
Always keep an eye on each other don't just assume they are good enough to to it perfectly.
best way to learn is to get lessons from a pro, this person can look what you do an correct you right away. Then, set up at your home 2 bolts and repeat the technic many times, then think about doing it for real, for sure not in multi pitch as showed in this video.
RIP Brad Gobright
Pretty much textbook, well done guys,
Amazing and lovely to see a clear instructional video on this. Great to see. Are you able to please let me know what your setup is regarding the equipment at around 6:14 in, you both have what appear to be Prusik slings but there's a device at the carabiner end which is then hooked into the quad anchor. What is this device, why is this needed please? I ask because at the moment I am just learning and I use prusik knots made with double fisherman knots for my daughters, and am thinking about getting on of these instead of a "Quickdraw" style link between me and the belay device. Again thanks for your instruction on this, very helpful!!
In case you never found an answer, the PAS they're using is a petzl dual connect adjust.
One side operates exclusively as the personal anchor and the other as exclusively a rappel extension.
Hi,
I really like the video and the beautiful location.
Can you share where was it filmed and the name of the route?
Many thanks
That wall is Cougar Cliffs in St. George, Utah. Not sure exactly which route, but that wall doesn't have too many routes and they're all just as beautiful!
I usually start to feed one strand trough the chains as soon as I'm secured to the quad. This way, leaving the third hand knot on I can still help my friend if it's a difficult to reach anchor. When they are on the anchor, we take the free end of the rope (remember the other one is already through the chains), remove the stopper knot and feed it through the chains up to the middle mark... From then is almost the same as in your vid, but in medium-short rappel this way you save a lot of time (because you the more extra rope, the more time you save each time right?). On jointed double rope you just need to remember the right strand to start the manoeuvre as usual...
Note that this way you remove the need for tying the rope to the anchor with the overhand knot... And possibly getting stuck
That works great and that's how I often do it. And sometimes I teach it that way as well. Seems that the problem is that climbers are clipping into the anchor, then taking apart their ENTIRE rappel set-up and then losing the rope end(s). I've seen this almost happen to a number of my students while practicing. So I've been teaching this method, along with a number of other guides/schools. This is also what Petzl recommends in their online tutorials. I do like that what you described skips a step that can be reasonably skipped, thanks for sharing.
All good if you have a visible middle mark and in the middle - not all ropes are new shiny and the original length
@@unwinlodge3785 right! To be honest I do refresh the middle mark as soon as I have the slightest doubt about being able to see it in a nigh rappel with a headlamp.
Great video! One thing I've noticed is that you take out your ATC from HMS when clipping/unclipping a rope. I was learned that is a bad habit. And I saw ATC falling down a multi-pitch route. If you can't rappel with e.g. munter hitch, you have to wait for rescue.
If only there were a dozen ways to *rappel safety without a purpose built atc.😁
What purpose does the obwrhand knot have? What do you mean by "securing the rope"? It's right there with you!
Thanks for making these detailed videos. One question: Instead of securing the ropes with an overhand to the anchor as in 3:00, couldn’t the same be achieved faster by the first climber simply leaving her third hand in place to ensure control over the rope?
Senior Krug, good to hear from you! I hope you've been steering clear of the 'schrund gnomes! To answer your question, yes, that's totally acceptable, but many people forget to do that (or do it securely) so we decided to emphasize tying off the ropes to secure them so they don't blow/swing away. Hope all is well on your side of the pond! -JB
Thanks for the instructive answer Josh. Those gnomes were hard on my heels a couple of times, but I managed to shake them as I learned from the best. All is going well here, the mountains keep calling...
I think tiredness can play a huge role here, not just incompetence or lack of skill. We all know this but maybe don't want to admit to it. Plus too much talking and getting distracted etc all lead to stupid and sometimes fatal mistakes. Great video. Personally, I would have waited until the first person down (the girl in the first example) had fully prepared herself before her partner followed. Reason being if there was some sort of problem from whatever, they would have both hands free and totally concentrating on the descent of their partner, ready for action if need be. I've tried to climb and those of other with me so that there is never any need for crazy speed -ok unless inclement weather threatens oneself and the party/group etc. However, I duly note your text re the fireman's belay could have been done. personally i would have done this.
8:12 Again, the whole process of engaging, testing, & inspecting the rap could be done first by the student/client(male), then the instructor below him, as they presumably did for the first pitch.
Good quality video,
One thing, 3:40, on recommending a firefighter's belay. This requires the belayer to be paying absolute attention to the climber descending, otherwise it is ineffective (at least one study I ready heavily indicated this), they theoretically won't be able to catch them. Also firefighter's belay is more difficult to arrest an uncontrolled fall with dynamic rope as it requires the belayer to pull further as the rope stretches to achieve the same force, especially hard to do while hanging in your harness on a multipitch climb. Surely it is better for both climbers to back themselves up, so that the climber at the bottom can immediately focus on being efficient and setting up the rope ready for the pull and the next abseil while the second climber descends?
Thanks for the input, Luke. Yeah, it's certainly best to use the firefighters' belay on short raps and only when you can maintain visual contact and pay attention. Can you site the study, I'd be psyched to check that out!
@@sietschoolforinternational5234
caves.org/section/vertical/nh/49/bottblay.html results at the bottom. Failure to catch, even at lengths common in climbing, belayer not hanging in their harness or in an awkward position (like so many climbing situations), and probably with ropes which are less dynamic than climbing ropes. It would have been good if they had specified the rope they were using.
@@sietschoolforinternational5234
And yes totally agree for short raps with clear line of sight they can work fine. Personally I only use them now in situations where I would be comfortable doing the rap without a backup anyway and treat it as such (an extra unknown level of safety which has almost no cost in time or effort, so why not use it).
It would be interesting for someone to replicate their experiment in situations more applicable to climbing/canyoning/caving with different kinds of ropes, and different belayer situations.
@@LukeFrisken Awesome, thanks again!
What is the purpose of securing the rope with the overhand on a bite? Thanks for the video.
Is that a clove or an overhand on Josh's biner for his atc?
I used a clove on the connect adjust, it comes out easier after a rap and it's adjustable and takes up less material.
Good instructional video. I am curious, however, why stacking the rappellers (i.e. putting both extended rappel devices on the rope at the top of the rappel) is not demonstrated as described in Marc Chauvin's "The Mountain Guide Manual". This has the following benefits: 1. provides another set of eyes to double check the 2nd rappeller's rigging - even though it should be tested when in a rush or tired, people get sloppy; 2. allows the 2nd rappeller to remove the quad while the first rappeller is descending; 3. requires only one knot to be put at the end of the rope since the rope is trapped by the 2nd rappeller's device. At the 2nd rappel anchor, the first rappeller can then pull up the end with the knot and thread it through the anchor while the first rappeller is descending. The risk of losing the end of the rope with a knot is eliminated without need for a catastrophe knot.
Thanks for those thoughts, Jeff. In the guiding world we usually call that technique 'pre-rigging,' though 'stacking' is fairly common terminology as well. And it's a great thing to do in most scenarios, even when not guiding. So why didn't we include it in this video? Well, the short answer is that it's hard to include everything we want to include in these videos and still keep the video length at the desirable length. And part of that is because the producer of these vids isn't cheap (despite the fact that he gave us a HUGE break on this contract) and we don't have a bottomless budget. But...if you know anyone that's willing to contribute monetarily, I'd be happy to work with them ;-)
Yeah, in Italy I learned that way, you save time and remove a possible point of failure. Also we usually leave the third hand knot on until it's time to pull the ropes from above, so really no risk of losing the rope...
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 such consistently good responses.
Youre definitely right, cant include everything in youtube (even if you had unlimited hours worth!). That is what taking courses on a mountain is for :) nothing replaces the real thing. We are still very grateful for the extra help online, especially when its good quality stuff like this!
@@REVOLUTIONS51 Stacking rappels wastes a lot of time in my experience. Fine if you doing 1-2 rappels, but it could add over a hour if your doing 12.
Thanks for the video. What’s the point of the quad as opposed to just clipping your safety to the bolts directly.
Is that an overhand joining the ends of your prusik? I’ve seen this before and I’m curious on the modern school of thought by the amga. Is it sufficient to replace the fisherman bend? Would you use it for your prusik in a weigh bearing scenario ie a load transfer for a rescue? Would you use it in an anchor? Thanks for all the great content.
Tyler Kersey I’m not a guide and can’t speak for rescue situations. But to my knowledge the EDK (overhand) is the AMGA standard, versus the double or triple fisherman.
Tyler, the flat overhand is a great knot for the friction hitch because it allows you to pull the tails to loosen it for certain applications, such as fixed-line ascension. I also use it for my cordalette because I can untie it to use it for other applications such as crevasse rescue (for my friction hitch/foot-loop combo), for tying around a tree or bolder, making a v-thread, etc. Hope that helps!
I love the video, at minute 5, there are too many cooks in that kitchen, I think she even caught herself double checking the double check. You and your climbing partner always have duties that are specific, I have never combined those duties in a collective mindset, again, it removes the mental flow chart and creates a dangerous potential hazard
Great video. Question about the rappel extension device you used. It looked like a rope of some sort? Can you let us know what it was?
www.decathlon.co.uk/double-adjustable-lanyard-id_8324696.html?iv_=__iv_p_1_g_63787291140_c_316418792539_w_pla-295628810540_n_g_d_c_v__l__t__r_1o2x_pla_y_15177021_f_online_o_521893_z_GB_i_en_j_295628810540_s__e__h_1006826_ii__vi__&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvO6Kof7V4wIVQbTtCh2UGAqGEAQYAiABEgKdMfD_BwE
See the link below - I think Beal also make something similar
@@andyhanzler6371 that’s definitely not quite the same thing. Their loops had canning devices so they could adjust the lengths once attached.
The one they are using is the Petzl Connect
She’s using the dual version of it which has a separate string for extending the rappel device
He’s using the single version with a clove hitch and a carabiner to extend his
What is the personal anchor system you are using? Those look nice and easy to adjust. I am trying to find them on google but I'm not able to.
We used the Petzl Connect Adjust, one of my personal favorite pieces! Here's the link: www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Lanyards/CONNECT-ADJUST
correct me if im wrong but back up or no i dont think they should be letting go of the rope to clean the rest of the set up. i never let go of mine!
You are correct
Always put a stopper nut under my backup when before you changing over
I hear you, but I think it's each climbers decision. I do feel very comfortable letting go if it's a tested friction hitch and it's on a locker and the ends have knots. In my 25 years of climbing I've never had a problem with it, but I'm pretty anal about tying well dressed, tested friction hitches.
It an ok practice to use Petzl Connect Adjust (the simple one) make a knot and put a carabiner to rappel? see 5:28 the guy with green helmet use this setup. Thanks
answer, yes, it's safe.
non-climber here, this noodle management scares the shit out of me
Consistent practice in a climbing gym is what helps you decipher what ropes are doing. Safe rope management is key when you are hundreds of feet up on a face with other climbers.
It's good that it scares you, because fear keeps you double checking everything; making sure your redundant safeguards are in place. It is complacency and relaxing on your checks that ends up being fatal.
whats the gear they've got hooked to the quad anchor? is it an all-in-one system? I like the adjustable and multipurpose aspects of it but can't seem to find it just through google.
petzl dual connect is what the woman is using. It's fantastic. The guy's is the single strand version.
It's the Petzl Connect Adjust. Though my opinion is admittedly biased since Petzl helps support our videos, I think the Petzl Connect Adjust is pretty rad! It's dynamic, adjustable and is foolproof compared to a daisy chain, which shouldn't be used as a PAS. Here's the link for the Connect Adjust: www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Lanyards/DUAL-CONNECT-ADJUST
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 Would it be possible to have it accidentally release when you were tethered in -- i.e. like roll it over a rock or something? Otherwise, it does look super convenient to adjust your tether length from the anchor
@@cbrass6 I can't imagine that happening and I've certainly never heard/read of any accounts of this happening. If it did happen, it probably wouldn't be catastrophic anyhow.
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 Why should a daisy chain not be used for a PAS?
You should put some videos out where you safely deal with sub-optimal equipment. For instance, in this video you can weight the rap while you're still tethered because you've got the quick adjust, but what if you had a regular PAS? What if you were climbing with 1 quad? What if your rope doesn't have a middle marker (or you've cut an end so it's not exactly the middle anymore? Most green climbers don't seem to be going out with the extensive gear setup your instructional videos show. A "minimum gear to ___________ safely" would be great.
That sounds like some fun material to work with. Next month we'll be putting together drafts for future vids and I'll consider those, thanks!
You can still weight the rappel with a regular PAS, you just need to awkwardly pull yourself up with one hand while taking both ropes through the ATC to essentially reverse repel until it holds your weight and your PAS is loose.
If there's a better way, I'd love to know!
Don’t climb with sub-optimal gear. This is highly dangerous, so buy great gear that’s new and never loan it out.
This is a good suggestion. I've noticed that these videos usually include use of specialty gear that I'm not likely to have. They are still good videos, but there is some translation required to make it work with what I've got.
Two questions:
1. In this method, I guess you need to have 2 quad anchor's available? (one goes down with the first to rap and sets up the next rap station; the second gets cleaned and brought down with the second partner). is that right?
2. I've always learned and practiced to PAS directly in twice (once to each anchor bolt). Is that better, worse or equal to using the quad anchor rig ups?
Thanks!
1. Yes, with this method. 2. Its a good practice to add redundancy whenever you can. However there are always single points of failure in climbing/rappelling. Most notably, the rope and belay loop of the harness. In this video, they aren't trusting a solo bolt, hanger, or chain link that preexisted on the wall. But they are trusting that the quad anchor sling can handle the *static* body weight of the climbers
I could like to ask a question. Climbers are attached to a sling which is linked to the wall with non locking carabiners; considering that their safety depends exclusively on that anchoring system, shouldn't they use locking carabiners to avoid its opening due to rotation?
It really depends on the situation, but with 2 bolts at a rap station, like in the video, most competent parties feel good with non-lockers directly on the bolts and lockers on the tether. If it's an un-monitored anchor, like a TR anchor, then I might put lockers on the bolts, or at least one, especially while guiding.
Isn't the Quad typically made with lockers? They are a little heavier so maybe in multi-pitch big routes it makes more sense to save weight?
Great question. It really depends on the application, but my general rule of thumb is that I use non-lockers on my quad when I'm in simple situations and I can monitor the anchor because it's right in my face. I'll use lockers on my quad when I set up TR's, especially if clients/kids are going to potentially do weird things at that anchor and it's out of my line of site. Hope that helps!
Good video, but with this method you need a lot of pre-made quad-ankers, if you have to rappell several pitches...
The one that puts in the quad at an anker-point should rappall last from that anker-point. if he or she rappells first, she doesn't have her quad-anker anymore.
But then the other person wouldn’t have an anchor either?
The point is, you don’t need “a lot of pre-made quads”, only two. The leader can retrieve one from the follower’s harness when they meet at the anchor.
@@tc0504 unless someone cuts the rope and their worries are over.
What material is that quad made out of? Looks like nylon. I would like to replace my accessory cord quad with that material. Looks a little more lightweight and compact.
It’s the Petzl PUR’ANNEAU, 180cm. And yes, it’s WAY lighter and less bulky than a cordalette.
So in summary of the steps to do when multi-pitch abseiling (someone correct me if I'm wrong, I've done single pitch abseiling and trad multi-pitch climbing but I haven't yet done multi-pitch abseiling; also, I'm British, hence "Abseil" instead of "Rappel"):
1. First abseiler reaches the anchor, secures themself to the anchor, and checks the anchor is safe
2. First abseiler puts slack into the ropes from above, and shouts up to the second abseiler, telling them they can come down
3. While second abseiler comes down, the first abseiler puts an overhand knot into a bite on both strands and secures it to the anchor
4. First abseiler cleans their abseil system
5. First abseiler pulls up one end of the rope, unties the stopper knot, feeds it through the chains, reties the stopper knot, and pulls that strand of the rope through the chain (lowering the newly tied stopper knot down towards the next anchor/the ground)
6. Second abseiler (after reaching the current anchor, securing themselves to the anchor, checking that they're safe, and cleaning their abseil system) pulls the other strand of the rope up (the one that will be pulled through the upper anchor) and unties the stopper knot
7. Overhand knot (in the bite of the rope that is securing the rope to the current anchor) is untied
8. Second abseiler pulls the strand of rope through the upper anchor while the first abseiler pulls the rope through the current anchor until the middle of the rope is reached
9. Second abseiler pulls up the end of the rope that was just pulled through the upper anchor, puts a stopper knot in the end (now both ends have a stopper knot), shouts "Rope!", and drops the newly tied stopper knot down towards the next anchor/the ground
10. First abseiler sets up abseil system (including prussik auto-lock), checks their abseiling system, unclips from the anchor, and starts to abseil towards the next anchor/the ground
Great video! At 5:58 when green helmet is rappelling. It looks like he has a Petzl connect adjust with his belay device carabiner tied into it. How is this tied in? I tried a few ways but it didn't look as tight or neat.
JOSHUA BRAINERD Glad you liked it! I used a clove hitch, it’s my favorite way to extend my device with the Connect Adjust. Thanks for watching!
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 I think I will like that better than having the dedicated strand that might be in the way on a multipitch (with the other model).
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 You're the only person I've ever seen use the Connect Adjust to extend a rappel! I use an alpine butterfly instead of a clove hitch, so the carabiner isn't weighed when attaching the rope to the device. You can see the difficulty at 7:44 in the video. Give it a shot! i.imgur.com/ldYN3sw.jpg
SIET, School for International Expedition Training Any tips on managing the (non-extending) second arm?
I’m considering cutting the fixed arm off since it adds clutter to my setup. I initially clipped it under my leg to a gear loop and ran into minor shenanigans when I clipped and weighted the extending arm, since this tensioned the fixed arm and made it difficult to move my leg - oops.
Clove hitch OTOH feels like it shortens the arm quite a bit - I do love the range.
@@jacobstr Cutting the fixed arm off would just make the device a plain Connect Adjust, instead of the Dual Connect Adjust.
Tether equipment listed with the video would be nice and a zoom into the setup extra nice.
I'm pretty sure the tether is a petzl dual connect adjust and the anchor is a pur'anneau 180cm sling
On the male climber's petzl connect, is that a clove hitch attaching the atc to the rope? Is there enough room in the rope for a overhand on a bight?
Great question! The overhand takes up too much rope, the clove much less, so I prefer the clove.
I have a question about one thing in the video. It appears both climbers have their "teathers" attached to the belay loop and not the hard points on the harness. As far as I am aware I always have metal on the belay loop and rope on the hard points. Am I wrong in doing this?
That's not so important, the division metal-rope is nice to keep it organized during manoeuvre and can make a slight difference in falls, but here you can go all on the belay loop without consequences...
Andrew, you are absolutely correct in a climbing situation. Since rappelling doesn't involve huge quick forces commonly seen in climbing (big falls), it is probably okay to clip into a belay loop when rappelling. I personally clip into my climbing loops/hard points even then though, due to habit and safety redundancy.
This is exactly how the manufacturer recommends attaching the Connect Adjust. See the link here for more details: www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Lanyards/CONNECT-ADJUST
I'll also say that the belay loop is the strongest part of your harness and there's no reason not to attach a tether there, it definitely rides more comfortably!
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 Thanks for the info. I have to agree it is nice to wear it there but I also like best practice. Good to know that they line up in this case.
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 "rides more comfortably" = "Does not crush your balls" =^)
Hello, I would like to know what carabiners you use for the reverse, the dual Connect, machard knot, thanks!
What is the tether system she is using? Is that a pre-made tether set up or various components purchased separately and then assembled later?
I believe it could be a PETZL PROGRESS ADJUST.....!
I think it’s a Petzl Connect Adjust
Whats that device on the tether?
Sorry for such a newb question, but can anyone tell me what she’s got on her personal tether that allows her to adjust the length of her tether in order to smoothly weight the rap system?
I’m having trouble seeing what it is. Thanks so much!
It's a Petzl Dual Connect Adjust, take a look on Google
Are you using a tibloc on your tether to make it adjustable?
it's a Petzl Connect Adjust, a tibloc would feel sketchy to me.
2 Kong Slydes and a piece of rope are a good alternative IMO...not an expert so no responsibilities taken :D.
Question - In the case of a more experienced and less experienced climber, would you recommend sending the less experienced climber down the rappel first in order to be sure its done correctly?
I'd definitely go first and have the less experienced climber do second. That way I can rig the next anchor and manage the rope while they rap.
She didn’t take down the Quad she set up once she rappelled down the second time (since the guy was still attached to it), the guy in the green helmet took it off before he rappelled. So when she went down, she no longer had a quad to anchor with. Would she then have two quads with her?
Yes, a second quad is usually the best way to go, but if you're short on quads you could possibly (situationally dependent, of course) use of the anchors that we demo in our 'Alpine Anchors' video: czcams.com/video/XpwY4vLEKYo/video.html
I noticed one possible error. When she sets up the "quad" she should be using at least one locking biner at the anchor bolts. I can see only two non-locking. I was taught in Alpine school here in Europe.
Two non lockers is fine. If you like one locker that’s fine. But similar to a trad anchor or a sport anchor multiple non lockers are adequate at the anchor points.
Yeah, I'd repeat what Michael Moynaihan said, 2 non-lockers is fine as long as the anchor is monitored, which it should be in this context.
Lockers are not needed for an anchor that you are right next too and can easily monitor. If it is being weighted there is not way those biners will come unclipped from the bolts.
Does this technique require two quads then? The first rappeller leaves the quad with her second which means she won't have a quad when she reaches the next anchor. I didn't seem them trade any gear throughout the video is the reason I ask.
Kramer Johnson yes. Multi pitch climbing requires two sets of anchors as well.
@@zonlymachine If they trade off, each cleans their own personal anchor before following down the rap.
How does josh get dismantle the anchor
Can you tell me the brand and style of the climbing rope you use? Dynamic or Static, etc? I want to make sure I get rope that is not cheap crap that could send me to my death.
Only climb with a dynamic rope. Buy a single size rope from a reputable company such as Mammut, Black Diamond, Edelweiss, Beal, etc.
@@gnarlivin89 what if I'm doing mostly rapelling? Should I use dynamic for that too or static?
@@LongMileGamer Are you doing something like canyoneering? Dynamic rope is always used for climbing because you risk a fall and a rope needs to absorb that fall. A static rope is not meant to take any significant fall and runs the risk of breaking. In scenarios where you aren't risking a fall, i.e. only rappelling or only ascending the rope, a static rope would be just fine. Just make sure if there is ever a risk of falling even a few feet that you use a dynamic rope.
@@gnarlivin89 might be possible climbing but not in the plans. The plans are to strictly rappel down mine shafts and then climb back up with a rope ladder every time. Might need to be able to hang so I can cut up some poles in partial frames so we can pull them up and out of the shaft. So dynamic is most likely the way to go then?
What self adjusting device is she using on her PAS?
Looks like the Petzl connect adjust, which is one of my favourite pieces of gear in my multipitch basic setup.
Yup, that's the Petal Connect Adjust.
As a non climber, I am astonished that you would have two people supported on two rawlbolts, Is there no back up to relying on these, I find this scary!
what is the thing on the end of her tether called
That's the Petzl Connect Adjust: www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Lanyards/CONNECT-ADJUST
ok thanks
I didn’t really understand the warning at the 5 minute mark? Can someone explain plz 😅
Hopefully videos like these will help save lives .... and they all could have been easily prevented .... Don't do it .... Like a true story ....e a guy jumped out of an airplane and forgot to check his chute .... he forgot to put it on ....
They didn’t use the Magic X on the self-balancing anchor. In case one bolt fails - they aren’t attached to the second anymore. Or am I missunderstanding anything?
www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Installing-an-equalized-belay-station?ActivityName=Multi-pitch-climbing
We used a Quad anchor system, it's fully redundant and far superior to the 'magic x' systems. We demo how to tie the Quad in our Alpine Anchors vid: czcams.com/video/XpwY4vLEKYo/video.html
SIET, School for International Expedition Training got it. Makes sense. Wasn’t familiar with a quad anchor. Thanks!
I imagine physical and mental fatigue play a big role in rap accidents. Add in complacency and distractions... tough sport for mistakes. Do it for yourself, not the camera.
I didn't know Tim Blake Nelson climbed
Is learning to rock climbing to master a feat of heights a bad idea?
No just do it ...
What is the next repel is at the end of your rope so you can’t tie it off to the repel
What type of PAS is the woman climber using ?
Petzl Dual Connect Adjust.
Tie a knot in the end of or just before the end of the rope. Make sure you are attached to the anchor right up to the point where you load the abseil device.Do not abseil on the same rope at the same time as your partner.Leave expensive gear in place if it means that will protect your abseil better.Protect your partner while they are setting up for abseil.Attach a prusik knot so that if you fall unconscious,or injure the abseil controlling hand the prusik will stop you sliding off the rope.
2:00 transitioning to another rappel station
re.5:10 Consider: tie each end to your harness & center the line in the anchor. This gives you 2 chances to recover the line before the rap & no chance to pull a knot up to the anchor of a completed rap, because you must untie the 'stopper' to pull it up.
Great comment, thanks. Just keep in mind that you can get some bad twists in the rope if you're not careful with this style.
Cougar cliffs?
surely quickdraw carabiners are not meant for anchoring and especially this thin wired ones from petzl.
This is a widely used industry practice, it's rare to see a certified guide NOT doing this.
May need to exchange those premade quad anchors so she has one before she goes down
👏👏👏✍️
why didn't the climber in red helmet on first rappel clip into both chains with the bight of orange rope?
Because it's only clipped in to prevent any possibility of dropping the rope and its not loaded with any weight or anything. Would kinda suck to lose your rope, so you always want to make sure it's at least clipped in somewhere when setting up a rappel. So, at all times either: have stopper knots on both ends of the rope (when it's threaded through the bolts), have it tied to a climbers harness, or just make a temporary bight and clip it to the anchor (what they did here).
And actually they did it wrong here, they removed the bight (5:19) but they didn't have a stopper knot in one end of the rope yet (5:56)... So they still could have dropped the rope...
Why build a quad and not just clip the bolts?
Good question. In short, it can get messy and hard to thread the ropes through the anchor if everyone clips into the bolts. The quad might seem like more work but it's WAY faster in the long run...and safer because you don't have tethers clipped to tethers, it's more organized and easy to visually inspect, etc.
It isn't bolts, it is spits. the spits isn't solid anchors so we need use a cordelette for equalazing anchor with a knot for avoid a shock-load potential.
From 2:00 very safe but so many knots and pre-made sets! It means many gestures and additional material to carry. It all weighs! Old simple techniques with slings and carabiners are sufficient, one has simply to be attentive.
Jean, I agree, these techniques do require more knots but not any extra gear than what I'd normally carry. Also, what you said about attentiveness, "one has simply to be attentive" is true, but I like to remember that we are human and therefor make mistakes from time to time. I've had too many friends that were usually very attentive but they still died or had serious accidents because they made a simple 'beginners mistake.' It's okay to cut corners when you know you're being very attentive, there's someone double checking your system, etc, but as a habit I think it's good to have backup systems in place in case you make a mistake. Kind of like wearing a seatbelt even when you're being an attentive driver- it doesn't cost you much to put on a seatbelt, or, in our case, to put knots in the end of your rope. That just my 2 cents.
Not well explained is the positioning lanyard setup.
You position it where it is most comfortable and/or allows you to test the next system. Hope that helps!
Green helmet guys first time or something?
be careful for kicking loose rocks and parties below you
when they say "the knot" it introduces confusion into what knot they are talking about. could not figure out which "knot" was remove and then put back in on the the partner side. an illustration would have made it clear where use of nonspecific terms "the knot" should not be allowed in any climbing situation this should have carried over to their video.
this video sucks.
The big fallacy is she either needs two quad anchors or he needs to give her the quad he cleaned.
2:58 whats that bfk for??
So we don't lose control of the ropes, i.e. so the wind doesn't pull them out of reach, which could be a MAJOR issue if there was still a knot in the end and you can't reach it to untie it.
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 It seems like an unnecessary added step tho. Why not just pull one end through the new rap rings/chains, clip the end to your harness for backup, and then pull out the slack? That way you still never risk losing the rope and you combine the steps into one action.
@@jacobkantor3886 That works if you do it in that order. Seems like the problem is that people forget how to sequence the steps and lose the rope. I've had a number of students that that would've happened to if an instructor wasn't checking their work.
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 I think the BFK becomes in particular useful when the path from the above anchor to the next anchor has some diagonal or overhanging fraction - which might even make it necessary to employ quickdraws that need to be removed from the second climber.
The bfk is completely unnecessary since she has a friction hitch already attached to the rope.
Bieners are facing each other? They don’t seem to be locking
Multiple pitch anchors and rappel anchors are not the same as a top rope anchor. They constantly have someone "inspecting" them so they are never left unattended.
I love your video for the technical aspects, but why no gloves?!?
I’m no pro, but all this rope work + rappelling w\o gloves just makes me think of hamburger hands, regardless of how many double checks are made folks :(
Gloves make it more comfortable but I've never had any issues with burned hands while rappelling with a friction hitch.
Great video, although I'd use locking carabiners for the quad anchor, that's a personal choice, but it's definitely safer
Plus two people hanging off two bolts, one bolt per person, ok not much chance of a shock load on this rappel, what about a friend in that crack? How we trust bolts with our lives.
I trust them %100, I wouldn't climb if I didn't. I'm assuming you're worried that they might shock load the bolts and one of them could break, but you've always got a second bolt to save your life. Plus they've always got something dynamic between them and the bolt so there wouldn't be such a high shock load as something static.
@@TUFF93ryley Yeah I know, I was just saying but yeah I wouldn't climb either if I didn't trust the bolt placement. I put in loads of bolts, either electric drill or by hand the slow way, sometimes even had to bolt to get off things that had wobbly hangers LOL. If they are bombproof that's good enough for me. Though I always like to have three anchors if possible. We (3) were climbing in Arapiles on a three pitch climb, I was belaying from the second pitch, the lead fell and three of his 5 bits of prop popped like no tomorrow- he was tired and it was irresponsible to be climbing that morning so late (it gets way hot there in summer). I pulled him up about ten ft below the ledge me and the other guy were on. I had three friends with bomber placements however, with all that instant excitement one friend had "walked" to about about 3 inches of the lip of the crack (it was a horizontal break) the other two still bombproof deep placements. Yeah he got injured and hospitalized, we went back to climbing the next day but it made me think extra careful about making sure things are done right and not to hurry. My mate who got injured was back climbing with us after 3 months and physio and a Ti pin in his ankle LOL. It never stopped us. But yeah for me on non bolted climbs, 3 is my number LOL, bolts OK 2 is good enough.
I trust my inspection of any anchor(s) I decide to use.
2 thing
if you don't use prusik why you extend the belay device
the second think is how you Identifies which rope you need to pull ? if you have two rope with the same color?
I connect my short cowtail to the rope that I need to pull if I have the same color of ropes - or just use differentiate colors and always know that thecolor is the pull rope -
They DO use a prusik...
why do all surfers, rock climbers, base jumpers look the same? is someone cloning these dudes?
Hmmm...abseiling accidents that happen on multi pitch routes end up with fatalities....duh....