How to Release a Weighted Self-Braking Device- Potentially Fatal Errors to Avoid
Vložit
- čas přidán 21. 08. 2024
- Learn more at: expeditiontrai...
This video was reviewed by 2 or more IFMGA/AMGA Certified Guides and/or SIET Instructors and produced by industry professionals. However, this video may contain misinformation, may lack important details, may assume a certain knowledge base by the viewer, and is not intended for novices. SIET and it's employees and affiliates, recommend professional training for anyone taking part in mountaineering/climbing/skiing activities and attempting to implement skills demonstrated in these videos. Videos produced by SIET should not be used as a substitute for professional instruction!
Music Info: SIET holds a License Certificate for the song featured in this video. Licensor's Author Name: Vizion-Studios. Title: Inspiring Motivational Theme. Item ID # 20566134. Questions? Contact Envato Support at help.author.en...
the sound of rope speeding up suddenly is terrifying as hell
Yeah, I've actually seen it happen in real life...not so cool.
It ought to be terrifying. There Can Be serious consequences if you don't understand the situation. You are not Always going to be in the gym.
The last few seconds were all I needed to make sure to have all my backups in place, that made me jump!
I am really glad you are uploading these, hope you save many lives!
It saved me before I do my first multi, I didn't even know this was a potential problem.
From the Petzl Reverso Manual:
7g. Releasing the REVERSO to lower one or both seconds. Use a carabiner like a handle in the release hole to tilt the REVERSO upward, which releases the rope.
Warning: release can be alarming; keep a firm grip on the brake-side rope during the entire operation. To stop the descent, grip the brake-side rope tightly and ease off on the carabiner/handle.
Never use a different release method, for example with a cord, a sling...
In the Black Diamond ATC Guide manual, they show the use of a cord to release the tension, but secure the break rope with a Munter hitch.
Yeah, I remember seeing that before we created the video. In reality, using a carabiner ofter does NOT work because there's not enough leverage to overcome the load. Try it sometime.
Yeah, I’m a ways away from actually multi-pitching anything, so just gathering info in advance & practicing on the ground at home - the Petzl training vid also uses just the carabiner-lever method, but good to know a proper, safe system using redirects properly, in case you can’t release on the carabiner-lever method.
@@Will-kt5jk I've been using the reverso since they came out 20 years ago, I now use the DMM Pivot both are good devices. I've tried other years ago like the Trango B52 it had smoother edges; this was before Petzl added teeth to the device in the 2nd generation version. I also have the 8 to 7mm version. It's important to learn how to use a Muniter Hitch and lock it off especially if you have to tie off the follower or escape the belay. I've used the carabiner method and redirect with a biner. Mostly to let out slack as needed. I always keep my hand on the break line regardless and if I have to use both hands for some reason, I'll redirect with the Muniter Hitch and lock it off and release it once I'm done. I trust auto breaking devices as long the person using them knows how it works, in most cases I typically lead so I don't worry too much about those issues. It's important to learn how to escape the belay in case of a fatality and the Muniter Hitch is the most valuable Knot to do that, regardless of the device you're using. I prefer belaying off the anchor for the second unless it's low angle terrain. It gets to a point that you can't worry about everything otherwise you'll take too much time which is also a danger on big routes. It's best to practice at home and go with experienced climbers or guides where you can learn a lot. Years ago, we didn't have anything but books to follow now with CZcams it's easier to get instructions but still the basic are something that need to be practiced and not taken for granted. Climbing can be complicated find out what works the best and has the fastest and safest setup. Nothing is perfect only semi perfect and sometimes you have to just work with what you got.
Great demonstration.
I got into an argument last night with an instructor at my climbing club about the need for the disaster knot before setting things up. She espoused relying the lock on the device to hold the climber and letting go of the brake hand to set up the prussik and re-direct.
Also, they way they went about releasing the device, they essentially took it out of the system, so the full weight of the climber was on the prussik.
One alternative I have seen on this is to utilize a Munter hitch on your harness instead of the prussik so that you could control the climber from the munter.
OMG.
Seems like using a Loaded Strand technique might be better than fiddling with this method.
All-in-all, I think that using belay devices in guide mode are more trouble and error-prone than they are worth.
Your comments?
What is your alternative to using a belay device in guide mode when multipitching?
As we were taught we basically temporarily disabled the guide plate and lowered from a munter. Almost like this video, except that this video relies on the belay plate still providing the majority of the friction.
When belaying with a single rope, I use a gri gri instead. When belaying with two ropes I do use a guide plate.
We were practicing this at a training at a course and my partner unlocked the belay device without a third hand or in our course we were supposed to use a munter. I fell onto the backup knot. I was surprised, they were surprised. At least we were basically on the ground so it wasn't a fall as much as it was a brisk surprise walk.
Do practice in a safe setting
Please keep up uploading these things! Great explanation and I'm just about to try this right now in my "in-house-training-environment" aka. roof :D
So glad you guys are uploading more!!! So many helpful tips!
Noah Robert Thanks! Glad you’re getting a lot out of them. We’re pretty stoked as well!
I'm glad I watched this, but I didn't know that it was so difficult to lower with that devise configured that way.
I find your videos well done and very informative Josh, thanks for taking the time!
Hi. Thanks for the vídeo. No excuses for we all to train that since we are in Quarantine! Thanks, again! Sergio/Rio
My pleasure!
Would love to see some more videos from you guys. Quite sadden to see only a handful of ones posted.
Thank you for a very well presented, instructive video!
I have one question. Why use the carabiner hole on the reverso?
I've seen videos show that connection made to the breaking biner.
When the belayer puts their weight on the sling the effect will be very similar,
but it is easier to clip a sling to the breaking biner than to feed a sling through
the carabiner hole, particularly if you don't have a thin enough sling to hand.
I think it is still important to have the cat knot, 3rd hand and redirect, in any case.
Thanks again!
Can you point to those videos? I was wondering the same as the hole on newer Reverso is quite small and you cannot feed a sling through it.
I just post arborist video's but you guys are (or were?) waaay more technical! Thanks for sharing all these vids!
Thanks for the explanation. Btw at min 2:43 the rope was rubbing against one of the white slings... I don't think that was ideal
You didn't loose the person. They can be found still connected to the rope. Perhaps not breathing, but found.
Very clear explanation! Thanks, SIET. I'm wondering about the transition from lowering back to belay mode. Any information or recommended video would be great.
Simply reverse the order of operations. Make sense?
What if you tie the brake strand to your harness with a munter hitch, release the belay device as show in the video and use munter brake hand to control the lowering?
The method you mention is the method I've seen in self-rescue books
That’s an acceptable method as well. I like the method we demonstrated a little better because it’s a hand free system, meaning you can let go at any time (provided its set up correctly) and you won’t drop your partner.
Will give it a try and see how it goes
@@georgefor28 I'll be happy to hear what you think!
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 after a few tries must say that I think the method shown in this video is better that the one I presented. Took me a while to understand how to propertly redirect the brake strand to keep everything organized and use the belay device propertly in this mode. Autolocking hitch as a third hand is always useful. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for sharing! Another excellent video!
This is one of the best presentations that I have seen on CZcams. The sound of the rope leaves a mark..
The whole setup seems convoluted to me though. And it depends heavily on the position of the anchor. I always used the munter hitch for belaying from above. One carabiner and maybe a prussic. Easy to comprehend in first glance.
I think that rope is feeding too close to sling used to lift the reverso. It's visible at 2:42 It looks like there might be some friction there. Perhaps clipping small biner to reverso would be better?
It's pretty good explained and informative, but this looks so overly complicated, just to lower some one and I really don't want to put my belay device out of the system. So please correct me if I am wrong or misunderstood the situation you are using this
Should have put an alpine hitch into the brake rope redirect. Extra safety without consequences other than needing a HMS
Seems like it'd be a better idea to use a munter where you have the prusik, what do you'all think?
I like both, but the friction hitch allows you to be hands free if needed, so a little more secure.
nice video. just noticed - quite much loops....looks like rope is cutting white sling (2:36)
Is this essentially a case of an uncontrollable gain in momentum? The prussik and overhand knot allow you to release the 'break' on the ATC with no movement in the rope then one can lower in a controlled manner?
I have a question, why would you even plan to fully release the device by loading it with your own body weight? I think the way Petzl describes it in their manual allows for lowering and braking by tilting the device like you would a ClickUp for example. You lose that breaking option in this setup, no? Still with the third hand, there is extra security.
Thank you! Can you please provide a bit more detail about the purpose of the redirect?
It's mainly so you can pull down from a comfortable spot, instead of awkwardly up above you. You are pulling down while the redirect is tilting/pulling the device up, towards the redirect.
What Ma Ja said is correct, plus it adds more friction to the system and allows you to execute a smoother lower.
Redirecting the belay strand is crucial. If you don't, when you open up the Reverso, it can't provide any braking force and basically acts like a pulley, as was demonstrated at the end of the video. The only thing holding the second up is the belayer's hand and the third hand (if installed), which is why drops often happen.
Thanks all!
@@barryomahony4983 Yup, that too, thanks for the input Barry.
Given that the manufacturer instruction (petzl in this case) for releasing are quite different and involve fewer steps, what's the benefit of doing it the way you demonstrate?
Control. That’s the benefit. If you have to lower someone more than a meter or so, this system takes less than 2 minutes to set up and allows you to give your partner a smooth ride back to the ground/ledge/wall. I’ve also seen climbers that aren’t strong enough to lever the Reverso open with a carabiner in the release hole and one hand prying at it, especially when there’s a big load on the line. If they can pull it off, it’s only for a jerky meter at a time.
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 Thanks for the clarification.
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 That makes sense if you need to lower someone a whole pitch, but more often you'll just need to lower them a couple meters off a hard move, or give your second a few meters so they can traverse a section. In which case wouldn't you agree that using a carabiner as Petzl and DMM advise is easier and safer? Safer in that it's simple (less to fuck up), and it's so awkward/hard to pull the carabiner you're not going to accidentally drop someone. Also if your second is really struggling and frustrated and you shout "hang on! I'm just going to reorganise to lower you!" and then proceed to faff for a couple minutes with them hanging there, they're probably just going to be even more frustrated, especially with newbies that don't understand all the systems.
@@SirCharcoal Great points Charlie. If it's a simple lower as you described, I'd also use the carabiner solution. However, I've seen some people do such a poor job of it (a very jerky lower or they couldn't even 'pry' it open) that they'd be better off in the long run with the system we demonstrated. Thanks for the thoughtful advice!
@@SirCharcoal Just using a biker clipped in is risky, especially if your 2nd is fully weighting the rope. The device can and will unexpectedly pop free while you're trying hard (hard enough sometimes to lose control/focus of your brake hand) resulting in catastrophe
These are so helpful!!
Thanks, glad you dig them!
The catastrophe knot and the third hand make a lot of sense but why the redirect? Is it so the ATC wont mind the prissuk if a climber starts falling?
Mostly to add more friction and therefore more control while lowering. It also allows the braking plane to be in a downward direction which makes it easier to control.
Great video! What are your thoughts on using the lower strand direct (LSD) method?
I've seen a munter added in and the brake put in somewhere else I think.
Question: Is there a reason for placing the prusik on the brake/belayer strand rather than the climber strand? I figured that on the belayer strand there is a possibility for the third hand to get jammed into the belay device if the lowering is sudden and jolts the belayer towards it. However, placing the prusik on the climber strand (which would pull the belayer downwards in the event of it cinching up) would prevent this, and would actually create slack in the system where the belay device to fail, allowing for an easier fix if there's an issue. Only problem I see with this is that the belayer would have to be anchored close enough to the device so that in the event of a fall they wouldnt be pulled out of reach of their working station.
I like your thinking. Also the "catastrophe" knot as they call it, is still implemented if decided. But, the prusik needs to be attached directly to the anchor so you're still free to move about when/if loaded.
If you put the third hand on the climber side of the rope it would end up holding 100% of the climber's weight and would be hard to release. On the brake side it will only hold a few pounds and the guide device and anchors are holding the bulk of the weight.
It feels so much easier just to use a munter hitch in the first place instead of a plate.
A person I've climbed with a few times before uses a munter most times and it is fairly safe if done correctly. But like most things has its drawbacks. The cons of a munter is that it twists up the rope quite a bit which could make it difficult to deal with on the next pitch up. It can also cause more wear on the rope shortening its life if done often.
@@MJ720 I agree and guide mode like this is also more favorable than a Munter when using 1/2 ropes.
Twisted up rope sucks though.
Hi. Nice video bro)
Everyone talks about a catastrophe knot, but if you mess up and have to use it good luck getting the weight off of it so that you can continue belaying… lmao.
Italian Hitch. Tried and tested for safe controlled descent. Prusik not correct for this task
Fantastic instruction! I would ask in the future that you let us know there isn't a person on the sharp end before dropping the like like that :)
عالی چنتا وسیله صخره نوردی بفرست
Why is a redirect of the climbing rope required?
What happens if you keep a hand on the brake end but release the device without the redirect?
Rope burn and dropped partner or is it maintainable?
Less control, potentially total loss of control. Redirecting gives the climber a much smoother lower, it’s worth the extra 30 second step.
I also wondered about the need for the redirect. Will have to try out both and feel t difference mentioned.
What size sling do you prefer to use for the Quad anchor?
kribinsky The 180cm slings work the best, though you can use a 120cm for some anchors (i. e. bolts close together) as well.
Yes thank you
Can t believe you keep opening the anchor biner instead of using another biner to clip into the anchor biner
He explicitly mentioned it's on a shelf, and you can also see neither biner is an anchor point.
It seems that the redirect carabineer is playing against the device, avoiding an emergency lock
I feel so too. If you skip the redirect and use the manufacturer method, the system should just auto lock once you let go off everything, no?
Felipe Porto Yes, the redirect system (carabiner and sling) do make it so the device doesn’t self-break (or “lock”, as you put it) but the third hand friction hitch takes its place. If you try to open the device without this system, it’s extremely difficult and doesn’t give you much control.
How do you make the third hand? What mm rope and how long should the rope be?
2m of 6 or 7mm climbing cord. get someone to show you how to do a fishermans knot to connect the rope ends, making a loop . This is then used as a "prussik'... several ways of wrapping. avoid using thin cord to avoid jamming on the rope.
MrAussieJules. Thank you so much!
I use a 5mm x 1m perlon cord, it works better than many other friction hitches sold these days. However, 5mm cord doesn't last long so you have to replace it often, but at about $2 per meter, it doesn't cost much to do so.
I am old, out of shape, out of touch. And while I appreciate the video, in the old days, I would belay with an ATC to a redirect above. Then I don't need to do all that stuff. KISS. Is the reverse thought you be do far superior due to its locking ability? I really don't recall accidents due to my Simple method. Please educate an old guy. Because I have a hard time making a simple thing that's safe an effective more difficult.
According to David Fusalo in self recue p 63-64 the redirected belay is a good method to belay a second but it is easier to loose control of a falling second (witch is according to me not an issue) but this belay method is genering more force on the belay because the redirect act as a pulley that is why it is less desirable. Have a nice day :)
Many climbers are moving to always using assisted braking devices or choosing that method as often as possible. An ATC is guide mode is the ultimate assisted braking device. We could argue how much extra utility is provided, but that's where things are heading. And yes, lowering is a pain in the ass, however it's not something you have to do often. Hopefully.
Your method is valid if your second has good climbing skills and wont be stopping, sitting on the rope to rest, spending too much time climbing the pitch, doing this gets the belayer tired of holding the brake. Usually happens with clients and when climbing with friends or relatives that don't climb very often.
@@RickyHarline Thanks. I definitely see the benefit of the "guide mode"; however the video indicates that people have been dropped and compared to the old ways in the old days the mechanism of lowering someone looked like a PITA.
@@georgefor28 FWIW "my method" isn't mine but the one in use 20 years ago before a "reverso" design came out.
I honestly understood none of this. Are you lowering somebody from a higher pitch down to a lower pitch? It would be great if you did some "prerequisite" videos or something to help noobs understand the stuff that's assumed knowledge in a tutorial.
or you can just belay from above with a gri gri so these steps are unnecessary right? which i guess the only benefit to using guide mode over at gri gri is the ability to belay 2 people, but most of us don't want to or need to do this.
@Jo Jones well if i'm belaying from above with a gri gri i would still be belaying off the anchor.. so i could still easily put a munter overhand on the grigir to lock the system off same as a atc guide.
But yes for a half rope system it is necessary and I have a alpine atc guide for that occasion
No wonder so many climbers fall, this is nuts. There is no way an average person can be proficient at all these connections without mistakes. I actually am really good at geometry and hardware (engineer) but this is a hillbilly circus. Someone needs to invent you guys out of the Stone Age…….pun intended……yikes.
This is overcomplicating something that can be quite simple.
Even then, this is quite simple, I'd avoid looking up how to set up a multipitch anchor with a portaledge, you'll give yourself a heart attack lol
How would you like it, in reach? out of reach? sliding x with or without limiter knots? quad? with the rope? BFK? bowline tie in, double? figure 8? abseiling off, retrievable?
Engineers are good on paper, but shite in practice, just ask a mechanic lol
Good tutorial. But a prime example of why guide mode is trash. Better off giving a belay with a standard tuber, munter or gri-gri type device. No shenanigans required to lower someone...
That's what I was thinking.
VS munter or tube, what do you spend most of your time doing on your climbs? I feel that if the lowering is unlikely to happen on your chosen route, then the guide mode is good because it is optimised for the scenario where your partner is making upward progress. Munter would be my second pick in this situation I guess.
I just answered a similar question, so I'll paste it here. I think there's pro's and cons to each system. But this is why I usually choose the Reverso: The 'self-breaking' or 'guide mode' allows me to do a few things- 1) eat, drink, add layers, etc. while belaying my follower. I still usually keep a hand on break but with the self breaking function I don't have to worry about letting go while distracted. 2- I can simply rig a raise (3:1, 5:1, etc) way easier than I could with an ATC redirected. 3) this should NOT be a problem in most cases, but a redirect creates a 2:1 pulley on your anchor. I think we've all seen people belaying off anchors that seem like they wouldn't hold a wet kitten and the redirect might tip the scale toward catastrophe. 4) you can belay 2 at once. 5) if the second is hanging their way up the route, it's not on my waist. Hope that helps!
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 Guide Mode is for guides.
try doing a 15 hr alpine route with 2 climbers under you without guide mode.... a lot more stressful and potential for letting go.
Ive never seen so many double actions in a single video