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This video was reviewed by 2 or more AMGA/IFMGA Certified Guides, SIET Instructors and produced by industry professionals. However, this video may contain misinformation, may lack important details, may assume a certain knowledge base by the viewer, and is not intended for novices. SIET and it's employees and affiliates, recommend professional training for anyone taking part in mountaineering/climbing/skiing activities and attempting to implement skills demonstrated in these videos. Videos produced by SIET should not be used as a substitute for professional instruction!
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I’ve yet to see an anchor build instructional video on CZcams where everyone agrees in the comment section about what the instructor is doing or saying. One of the many things I like about climbers :)
Cheers to that! I guess that's what makes us such an interesting bunch- we've all got some interesting opinions...and some of them are VERY interesting ;-)
It IS good to be a member of a community where the "rules" are NOT set in stone (sorry) but leave room for individual preference/taste.
Love that you guys point out the 'pro's and con's', so many pick a tech and believe there is nothing better than their one way. Not knowing your con's is want causes failures.
Great vid with good info, timing and language.
Couldn't agree more! And thanks for the compliments :-)
The Equalette is certainly my go to anchor, especially when guiding or belaying a second. I can tie into the MP with a clove hitch using the rope, and then set up my ATC-Guide on a second carabiner using the other strands of the MP. Since I am on separate strands I can stand to the side and belay while both I and the belay are separately equalized.
Excellent video, IMHO! Very clear instruction, great demo, love the Pros/Cons lists. Adding these options to my virtual toolbox. I learn from the comments as well - some great questions and discussions and replies, folks! Remember - STRADS or any acronym is a guide, not Commandments. Guides help to remember key points to evaluate anchors for each specific situation. Each point may be more or less important depending on the terrain, the clients' skills, the environment, the application, the anchors (bolts, pro or natural) and your available gear. Thanks to SIET and to all who contribute below!
Thanks for taking the time to make this video. Great job.
Really great video! i love the pros and cons since they aren't always obvious when people show you these things.
Excellent video Josh! well done.
Really appreciate this info.. Needed a refresher after years off climbing. Subscribed.
This is an excellent video that covers all the core functions in a concise manner. Well some folks might disagree with a few minor points, overall it's solid. Note that this only covers making two-piece anchors, not three-piece or more.
Thanks for noting that, johngo6283. I hope to make a vid on 3 piece anchors soon...
I love 2piece anchors...If I find a place where I can do 3,somebody is usually bivvying there.
I,unfortunately for the gear makers,belong to the "absolute minimum" mindset.If I get 1 good anchor,that'll do.I'm not going to spend time and effort finding another...unless it's right there.
In front of me,staring me straight in the face.
And I always work with a long sling with 2 x fig8's at the ends.Its still a long ordinary sling but becomes a super belay very quickly if I find a double set-up.
Don't know whodunit first,but well done.
Thanks for the video and for trying to clarify the advantages and disadvantages of any decision, both in the video and the comments. It helps people who were only taught one school of thought to understand that it's more about making good decisions for each scenario.
Love this channel. I've watched and re-watched your videos, and appreciate the care taken in creating this content. If i wouldn't have watched your videos several times, i wouldn't have noticed that at minute mark 3:14-3:15 the hanger on the right is loose. Check your every bolt, friends :)
More up to date, the girth hitch with a half twist in one of the clipping loops has been shown to be far stronger, while holding if a side strand fails, than an eight knot in the Dyneema type sling. The G hitch is adjustable, easily untied, and the locking biner it is tied into becomes the master point, rather than a webbing loop. It seems to be about the best option currently used in slippery static slings, and should be learned as a safer, stronger replacement for any anchor slings where knots dramatically reduce strength. While most anchors will never experience severe loads, every occasion just might become that rare instance where such loads can be generated, and a complacent, "good enough" attitude, when a better option is available, could turn into an entry in annual In Memoriam essays.
I always used the rope for my anchors, however the cons is that it uses some of the rope for the anchor (obviously). I like that its very easy to equalize, then again I have mostly done single pitches or trad multipitch routes. Also when you top out, if you tighten the rope real hard you can actually sit on the ledge and see what the climber is doing, very useful.
I dont know how that would work in an alpine enviroment, as it probably takes to long to set up. I can see why dynama slings is very good here :)
This is an exceptionally good video!
Regarding Magic X you have a dilemma. If the pieces are so bad that you need perfect equalization, the Magic X is not the best solution because of shock load, and if the pieces are bomber you don't need the perfect equalization and you lack redundancy in the sling. You can mitigate this a bit with limiter knots.
Edit: I saw the part adressing the knots later
Nice review of anchor fundamentals
Great video, really clear and simple.
Thank you, simple and clear.
I like the style of the presentation of this tutorial, quite easy to follow.
Thank you for doing this to help everyone
Thanks!
This is really helpful for a novice alpinist :) Thanks! I literally took notes and made drawings in my notebook!
Lexi, you're awesome! I looove when people take notes for these important concepts, there's no doubt that it results in better memory recall further down the road...only if I could get all my students to do that.
CONGRATS Master!!!! VERY Interesting!!! Chapeau!!!!!! Thank You!!!
Best Wishes.
Once all the complications, shortcomings, and difficulties with tying, untying, reconfiguring all the nicey sling anchor systems are taken into account, the most glaring omission here and in most "modern" methods is the fact that using the climbing rope itself provides greater strength, with dynamic properties, adjustability, and flexibility none of these fancy slingfests come close to - and it is always with you, leaving slings for protection points. One figure eight into the primary/ best piece, with clove hitches or butterfly knots to additional anchors can be adjusted fast, oriented to minimize shock loads if one piece fails, with more versatility, hence better most of the time. The evolution of overdependence on static slings for anchoring is on guides more interested in moving clients from below asap, then switching them out to the focal point when swinging leads is not in the equation. The obfuscations about magic x, y, z, etc. will fall apart when anyone takes a factor two fall on these messes.
I've often wondered about this, but don't consider myself experienced enough to freestyle things for myself. But I am also aware this opens the possibility of "monkey see" type behaviour - no offence at all meant, to the OP of this content. I enjoyed watching this video, and learned from it.
I am a sport, not trad climber (at present...)
1) lead the pitch to the anchor/stance
2) get safe on the anchor bolt(s) with a simple sling/biner (it's static, keep it taut)
3) build a belay with the climbing rope
4) bring your buddy up, they get safe on the anchor
5) transfer belay back to your harness
6) he/she leads through
What happens if they fall before the first clip on the next pitch?
@@nathantaylor4538 The leader falling before the first clip is always a difficult situation, isn't it? Most belay devices will quit working if both strands go in the same direction and that problem isn't exactly dependent on your anchor layout.
There are some workarounds, but they don't depend on how you build your anchor:
1. Climb above the belay and clip the first bolt (!) of the next pitch before you climb back down and set up your anchor. Then belay your second like in toprope. As your partner climbs past you, the first bolt is already clipped and he can't fall directly into the anchor. This is the most elegant way if you have bolts everywhere, but won't work if you can't 100% trust the first piece of gear of the next pitch.
2. When belaying from the body, place a redirect carabiner in the anchor (or in one of the bolts) and place yourself 1.5-2m below (so you won't hit the anchor if the climber falls). In this case, it is useful to connect yourself to the anchor using your rope, as most slings and lanyards aren't long enough.
3. When belaying directly from the anchor with a tube (ATC), put a redirect for the brake strand in the anchor. www.bergundsteigen.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Vorschaltkari-scaled-1-700x1060.jpg
4. When belaying directly from the anchor with a tube on a belay with two vertically spaced bolts with enough distance between them, connect the tube directly to the lower bolt and put a redirect carabiner in the upper bolt. Make sure that the tube cannot reach the redirect. If the two bolts are too close, use 3.
The munter hitch will work regardless of pull direction and can be used to belay directly from the anchor without any tricks.
I feel like 2 overhands for near each anchor and then a magic x on q sling that has 4 strands per side is super good enough.
Thank You! for the anchor tips.
Great video
by b
I recently learned an anchor with a single clove hitch in the center of a sling. Similar to the SWAMP but much easier to undo and faster.
I also wonder about all the acronyms. I like the STRADS concept but it is harder to remember. What is a STRAD? Have you considered changing this to STRAND? Strong, Timely, Redundant, Angle, NoExtension, Distribution. The N is the same as the other acronyms and a strand is highly relatable to rope work.
The single clove makes a non-redundant system, though sometimes that's okay.
Regarding the acronym, I'm not so into the 'no extension' part of other acronyms. Hence the new one. In fact, there's many times when extension is best. For example, the 'quad' is one of the most useful anchors systems out there and if you went with the other acronyms it would lead you to believe that the quad is inappropriate.
You can check out the paper we published on extension on the SIET website, see the link in the vid description above and let me know if you have more questions.
Did not emphasized on the benefits of SELF-EQUALIZATION from the Magic-X, Magic-X w. stopper knots, and QUAD... I would have expected to see this characteristic listed as PROs on those anchors. Nonetheless, excellent instructional video! Keep 'em coming.
Great video! Question, comment and concern: Question: What do you think about tying knots in dyneema? All of your videos have knots in dyneema. Comment: I love the Swamp! Where did the name come from? Also, what about figure 8 in the swamp instead of overhand? Concern: Your "equalette" anchor is the quad. Your "magic x with load limiters" is the equalette. Reference: "rock climbing anchors" by John Long and Bob Gaines. No big deal, just a naming issue (unless I am mistaken)- but the IFMGA guides should have caught that I would have thought... Great vid, looking forward to your response!
Thanks for the comments, Aron. See the reply I just wrote to Allen Hart above regarding knots in Dyneema. Regarding the names, it seems that it varies depending on what part of the country you're from, who you've worked with, etc. Anyhow, some of the guides that looked this over mentioned that, but didn't think it was something to correct. A figure eight in the SWAMP would be great, provided you have the room and it doesn't make your angles too big. The SWAMP was coined by IFMGA Guide Jed Porter www.jediahporter.com/ Thanks for the input!
Dear Josh, Thank you for the excellent video. Could you please explain the appropriate use of locking carabiners in an anchor set-up? Specifically, I am a curious if they are unnecessary for the attachment points to bolts or other pro. Using non-lockers certainly saves time, but I've always used lockers for bolt attachments, for no real reason other than it sounds safe to me, and if it's just as good to use non-lockers I would be stoked to know and save some time on building and taking down belay anchors. I'm assuming there are some trade-offs as with any anchor variation, and I'm curious as to what those are and what possibly could happen to cause a non-locker to fail at the bolt/pro attachment point. Thank you, Aaron Formella
Generally speaking, it's okay to use non-lockers at anchors that will be monitored, such as on a multipitch climb, not on a TR set up. Also see other replies to comments in this thread, I've hit on this one in a few places. Let me know if that doesn't answer your question adequately. Cheers!
Que video tan chingon saludos desde México 🇲🇽
Obviously no one plans for an anchor failure if you suspect it might then it isn't really an anchor point. So with that in mind if you have a choice why use a magic x? How much time does it really take to put an overhand or 8 in a Sling compared with the 120m pitch?
One other note I would make is that bfk type knots have been shown to fail on a shock load but you can't really take a shock load with that set up. It would be nice to space those bolts a bit more too I'm getting picky
Hey guys! Great video. I've never seen the SWAMP before, that's pretty handy. Quick question: I notice sometimes you clip your carabiner into the bolt hanger, and sometimes into the rap ring. I've heard heated debates on which is more appropriate to clip into. In my mind I can't really figure out why it would matter if you're not planning on using the station to rappel immediately afterward. I was wondering if you'd share your thoughts on the topic. Thanks!
Someone else might show up and want to use the station to rappel
Thanks for this..!!
great video! would be good noting that the equilet with opposing carabiners is great for toproping.
I wish this video covered 3 or 4 piece trad anchors, they require much more thought. I'm not an experienced alpine climber, but how often do you actually run into bolted belays in the alpine?
We recently made a vid covering this, check it out on our channel. Also, I use 2 piece anchors in the alpine a lot: 2 screws, pickets, pitons, cams etc. And sometimes 2 bolts, just depends on where you are.
You find bolts in some strange places nowadays...right next to perfect pro cracks for instance.
Better batteries, smaller powerful drills have all added to this.
Some people just like to think they're doing a public service, gives them a feeling of superiority.
Great Video to some learning like me
Thank you
Top class....
Where is the shelf located on the equalette (quad) anchor? By clipping two strands instead of three on the master point does this create another master point or a shelf?
The quad is shelfless, instead by clipping only two of the strands you have twin master points. I often will use one set to anchor myself, and the other to belay the second so I'm removed from the belay system.
Hey a question from someone who has never iceclimbed:
Is there any possibility to cut the rope with those hooks in your hands or on your shoes? Because everytime I see one of you use those, it stresses me out!
Well, yea. When I started I made some holes in my pants with crampons, because of me not being used to it. But with more practice it should be alright. You should always look where you are going to move your hand/foot, and always move one at a time. This shouldnt be new to you, this is a basic technique of climbing. By doing this, the chance to cut anything should be almost non-existatnt.
I liked the different point of view. One thing, shock loading and dynema. Sling,+magic X+1 piece fails under a Factor 2 fall...that sling is cutting itself resulting in catostopic factor...after watching DMM's testing of shock loading on slings it's seems it's a 100% failure rate
Very true, a 100% failure rate...but with a factor 2 with a steel weight. Those DMM tests are not realistic. We are not made out of steel. If you look at those same tests with test dummies, you'll see very different results. As far as I know, no one has ever had a sling fail in the field, in the scenarios that I demonstrate in the SIET videos.
I'm sure the human body will reduce the total kilo newton the gear would experience, but the higher the fall and weight, the higher the impact. If suddenly you are working with a particularly heavy climber, or the distance ends up being more than expected, one could easily mess up without the proper precautions. After watching the video (link below for those who haven't seen it), I don't see a good enough case to not just use a rope instead of either a nylon or a dyneema sling. Given the choice though, a dyneema with a knot just seems to be especially bad, and I would chose the nylon sling instead.
But a short 6 foot rope would be the best in terms of anchoring, although more heavy and cumbersome.
I did thoroughly enjoy your video though, some excellent points and your pro's vs. cons of each one really gave me some insight into the tradeoffs.
Here's a link to the video being discussed above, with a detailed chart as well:
dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/how-to-break-nylon-dyneema-slings/
SIET, School for International Expedition Training , I would add that not only do they use a steel weight in the DMM test, its also a completely static fall with no dynamic rope. Hence its not even fall factor 2. Fall factors can ONLY be used to describe falls using dynamic rope. In static falls, the amount of material does not matter, only the length of the fall matters.
I was taught in alpine school not to use dyneema for anchor building but nylon, and to use at least one screw-lock biner. Also all the anchors shown apply to movable "questionable" protection (nuts, cams, pitons, sometimes ice screws) to distribute the load. When making anchors on solid "bombproof" bolts, it should be consecutively. All of the load on one anchor point, as the other anchor point serves as a backup if the first fails. Also the "magic X" shouldn't be used due to great shock loading forces, that may cause catastrophic failure. Just my 2 cents.
BAK87, it sounds like the alpine school that you'v been working with have some different techniques than what is considered 'best practice' in North America. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that what you've been taught is inappropriate, but there are other ways of doing it that are fully acceptable and that's what show in the video. Regarding dyneema, I'd encourage you to look at the Petzl illustrations that clearly show that dyneema is acceptable for anchor building. Thanks for your two cents! Here's the Petzl link: www.petzl.com/US/EN/Sport/Packs-and-accessories/FIN-ANNEAU#.WC9bfqIrJE5
Thank you for reply. It indeed looks like there are different practices of technique. I'm from central Europe, so that may also be the cause. In the end all that matters is Safety. I have checked the Petzl documentation, and it seems that you are correct, although I will stick to nylon. Be safe. Cheers!
BAK87 Maybe because of the fact that dyneema weakens really bad when the load isn't static (like most situations When accidents happen)?
Agree Airb 19, mainly it's due to the low melting point (dynamic/friction) of dyneema, another factor could be the weakening of material when using knots.
What a load of crap... There's just as much evidence that bringing nylon into the alpine will result in soaking wet material that fails, at most, around 60% anyways. There are trade-offs as with anything in climbing and in life, but neither a wet nylon sling, nor a knotted dyneema sling is going to fail anywhere near the loads placed on them in any belay anchor scenario.
What model Rab jacket is that? I can't find it on their website. Thanks.
Looks to me like it's the RAB Nexus Jacket.
www.campsaver.com/rab-nexus-jacket-mens.html
If timely belay rigging is what you're after, I don't see how anything is faster than a pre-rigged quad. Is there some reason you wouldn't want to pre-rig a quad?
Good question Danny. I pretty much always have one or two prerigged quads when climbing ice or using bolted belays. Sometimes in a rock environ, the pieces are too disparate and a regular cordalette or 120cm sling is faster.
Good point. I suppose I've been spoiled by the proliferation of bolted anchors in the Wasatch. Now that I'm in the UK I suppose I'll have to break out the cordalette more often. ;) Haven't been able to get out yet, but plan to soon.
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 The Mammut 120cm Contact Sling is my goto for the quad.
Does anybody do the magic x times 2 or double up the magic x to allow for travel and also give the redundency?
Yes, that's a great way to go if both of your pieces are bomber.
Would a swamp knot doubled up be safe too?
what width are those slings? i have 18mm wide nylon slings and i find hard to do knots on them
10mm
You should also show theREAL equalette that had 2 main and important advantages: it doesnt take much materieal and it is perfect when protection are far from each other
The quad (equalette) is by far my favorite anchor! Gotta have a long enough sling though...
LIKE certo 👍🇧🇷
Really nice video from a climbing perspective.
But as the angle increases it is either exponential or you multiply, it can't be both.
It's trigonometric!
Interesting & modern but did not explain "shelf". Is that a loop to hang gear on?
Tony, the shelf should be a full strength and roughly equalized part of the anchor that you can generally clip live loads to, though some exceptions apply. Many guides use the shelf as a higher and more convenient place to hang their Reverso.
very very interesting, thank you very much
Hi, what do you mean by shelf not user-friendly ?
I'm referring to any shelf that is hard to clip in to, hard to figure out which strands to clip to make it redundant, and a shelf that when clipped, it changed the anchors ability to self equalize (like with the equalette, AKA quad).
What would be the point of tying a figure 8 anchor instead of a double loop overhand?
Easier to untie after loading
What makes the shelf on the equalette (quad) not user friendly?
You generally only weight part of the anchor or it's hard to clip into the 2 shelves.
Nice video, but at 2:52 you say that the load on each piece "increases exponentially". Doesn't it increase as 1 divided by the cosine of the angle?
I think an exponential form would involve imaginary numbers, which seems unhelpful to me in this situation.
@@brianclimbs1509 As I understand it, and I'm not a physicist, the increase is actually more than exponential, it's 'without bound', that's what a physicist explained to me. Those concepts are beyond my paygrade and I think it's more important to just understand that the load gets WAY bigger once you get past 120 degrees.
@@brianclimbs1509 mathematically, an exponential increase would be thus:
For angle X and some constant N, the force ratio F is equal to N raised to the X power (F=N^x). As X increases, F increases, but F is finite for any finite X and N.
The actual increase is much more dramatic; F=(1/2)*sec(x/2) [secant, or 1/cosine]. This means that as the angle of the sling approaches 180 degrees, the force approaches infinity. At 120 degrees, the force on each piece is equal to the force on the master point, even with perfect equalization. At 166 degrees, the force is quadrupled.
No knot on dyneema. You can loose more than 50% of the strenght. If there is a schock load, you can have a very high impact force . On a FF1, 60cm fall you can obtain an impact force more than 16Kn.
That's actually not true. Dyneema slings are actually better at absorbing loads than nylon webbing, partially do to the knot's ability to slip and absorb some of the impact. DMM did an amazing series of experiments looking at various anchor-building materials and their breaking points under worse-case scenarios. It was very enlightening.
czcams.com/video/Vrgadjo9niY/video.html
What is shelf ?
So how does the Magic X pass redundancy? If you cut one strand of the sling, you're screwed.
It isn't! It's clearly stated at 9:42
why not use the rope from harness to bolt and the sling to the second bolt ???
That system does not give you a master point to belay from.
I don't like the sliding x because there's no redundancy in your sling
Usually the anchors are the main concern, when good tapes are used. He explains appropriate use.
I'm somewhat surprised that you show no anchors built with just the rope to stick with the light and fast approach to alpine climbing. Something like a super 8 or a bowline on a bight are fast and use no extra material (particularly when at a bolted station).
Bunny ears!
I got taught screw gates at the connection to the bolts/gear.
Please see the discussion on this further down this thread...essentially, if you're monitoring your anchor, like you generally do multipitch climbing, then non-lockers are usually appropriate. And of course there's other considerations...
why do not you attach carabiners to ring of anchors?
I don't teach either one, both are fine as long as the rings are in good condition and full strength.
What alpine routes have two bolt anchors on em?!
Consider the bolts to be 2 ice screws, pickets, pitons, cams, etc. then I hope it will make more sense.
Nerd alert: Why is 90 degrees the limit for the anchor? high school physics tells me that the force on each piece is Weight/2/cos(angle/2). so, for an angle of 120 degrees, the weight on each piece is weight/2/cos(60 deg) = weight /2 /.5 = weight. With the 120 angle setup, each piece is only holding a force equivalent to the original load, and the system is more redundant. Isn't that good? As the angle goes to 180 the load on each piece obviously goes to infinity, but it seems like 120 is the break even, not 90 degrees.
I'm glad I was able to bring out the Inner Nerd in you! :-) I understand that the correct phrase to describe this type of vector loading is an 'increase without bound', which is technically more severe than just 'exponential'. With that being said, I find that most people can relate to 'exponential' much better and that's why I usually teach it that way (on my more advanced SIET courses, I teach both concepts). Regarding the 120 angle in the anchor, you're right on that as well- "120 is the break even", yes, but it's nice to do better than that if resources (length of slings/cord) allow. I feel it's best to try and aim for less than 90 degrees, but in a pinch, I would feel okay with 120 considering its redundancy, as you stated. How does that sound to you? Sounds like you've put some real thought into this- thanks for dorking out!
indeed, "diverges" or "increase without bound" are correct, haha. this part of the video just touched on a pet peeve of mine. I hope your advanced students appreciate some of that mathematical rigor. Thanks for the videos, by the way.
Not sure what you mean by more redundant, but you're right that an anchor approaching 120 degrees with bomber pro is better than a 30 degree one made of Christmas decorations
60 or less is ideal. Load sharing is key, but diverted away from the anchor. You're correct that with angle increase there a greater load on each piece, but this is not where you want the weight. While climbing you want the weight NOT on your anchor pieces, but directed on your master point with all its strength, redundancies (limiting knots), and at least two 20+kn locking carabiners in opposite opposing configuration.
Actually it's the tan of the angle you should be considering. If you bisect the load in the middle you form 2 right angle triangles, If you split 180 degrees (ie anchors are horizontally opposed) the tan of half of that is infinity. Yep you canwrench the bolts out!!
I like that acronym the most too. One thing about the magic x I've always thought: if I snip one strand of that sling, the whole thing fails. Doesn't this break the redundancy? I'm always scared of using those.
I beg pardon Sir . Wouldn't it be easier to just tie a triple bowline ? It's self equalizing , simple , strong and easy to untie after being loaded . I may be the odd guy out but it's my favorite for almost 40 years .
STRADS =
SOLID,
TIMELY,
REDUNDANCY,
ANGLE, about 30-45 degrees between the two bolts and master point.
DISTRIBUTION (of weight), equalize the weight.
SHOCKLOAD.
Why use non-lockers instead of lockers? Isn't it safer to use lockers, or doesn't this add any security?
Because of the redundancy. If, somehow, one of those carabiners opened, the other one would still be attaching the anchor.
Because of speed (whichever letter in your acronym that might be).
Lockers are heavier (hard to climb at your limit with a heavy rack), and slower to put in and take out. This was mostly about alpine anchors, ie, anchors where the belayer is right there. The belayer can watch to make sure the biner doesn’t open and unhook.
In a top rope anchor, where speed and weight don’t matter, and you can’t see what is happening to them, I do use lockers a lot more.
What about Grivel and Camp?
What about them?
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 Sorry...C.G.C. accidentally ate the T.H.C. gummy bears and not the C.B.D. ones...
OK so there are some interesting ways of anchoring but according to my info (f.e. from dmm testing) using dyneema to build an anchor point is strongly disadvised, so as making any knots on your anchoring systems, sytems shown above are simple and efficient in terms of lightweight climbing when every piece of equipment is strictly counted, yet still I would personally recommend NYLON slings over dyneema for anchors (they CAN absorb some shock) and definitely NO KNOTTING (can reduce sling strength significantly). Personaly I use nylon for anchoring and dyneema for alpine draws.
The DMM tests were not real-world applicable, 80kg steel weight on the end of a static line. Dyneema is THE way to go with slings in an alpine environment. Nylon has this real bad habit of freezing.
Instead of overhand knots that are hard to take out when loaded, why don't you make a figure 8?
Probably because it takes more material? I do use figure 8 personally, for that reason, if I have a long enough sling.
So your S in your STRANDS acronym should be double checked, look closely at the right anchor exactly at 3:14 cause it is so loose, the weight of the ring moves it.
Please explain how a slightly loose hanger makes that piece structurally unsound in this situation.
why tie a quad with a doubled over sling? Surely a non-doubled over sling can have just as much safety. simply clip one instead of two middle strands. sure you could say that you shouldn't rely on one strand. But this is the common practice when using a PAS is it not? If one lower link on your PAS fails, even if it is clipped into both bolts, the whole system fails.
The doubling of the sling is what makes it a quad...four strands to clip into when it's all said and done. And clipping into only one strand is not redundant. I don't use PAS for a reason, waste of weight and space on my harness.
You should clip the rings not the hanger for the ring.
3:05 right spit moves
Usually that's not a big issue (if it's only slightly moving and not coming out).
Its called addition of vectors.
The sliding/magic X doesn't pass your own redundancy requirements
as stated.
He mentioned this in the video. It does become redundant if you tie a limiter knot in each arm.
I've never seen someone try to make a magic x anchor without the limiting knots but that's just me...
Quite right, it isn't redundant. But sometimes you don't need redundancy and the magic x works well in situations where the sling won't get cut, the loads will be minimal, speed and efficiency is a priority, etc.
Yes, definitely a good practice to have that redundancy just in case. Honestly though, when have you ever seen a leg of an anchor get flat-out severed or even close to it? I'd imagine you've spent many, many days in the field and have never seen anything even come close.
Why not just build an anchor system using the dynamic rope your climbing with?, through two carabiners clipped into bolts and clove hitches at the harness end so you can set the length.
You can certainly do that and it's very efficient in many scenarios. However, it's good to understand the drawbacks, which include: not being able to switch the belay over for the same person to lead multiple pitches in a row, and not being able to easily escape the system in the case of a rescue.
+SIET, School for Interna
tional Expedition Trainxterm zee ft ing
Swapping leads, it's the way to go I think.
I debate the escaping the system question. If you can rig a bunny ears on your main cord, you can definitely hook in either direct or make another anchor using slings and transfer over. As far as leading the bunny ears is best for swinging leads. Great video though and has given us a lot of good quality info.
Not including use of the rope to build the anchor seemed to be the one shortcoming in an otherwise excellent video.
Does anyone see like me ? The SWAMP is not redundant (sling wise). Therefore better to use a sliding X : stronger, simpler. CON: the sliding X will have an extension in case of 1 anchor failing.
Actually if you look a little closer the SWAMP is redundant. By putting the knot in the middle you are essentially linking two independent loops together, attach carabiner to both loops and if either of the loops fail, the other will still be intact. The only part of that anchor that isn't redundant is the knot. If for some reason the knot fails then you lose redundancy, which is why he was very clear about the importance of the knot being on the side away from the wall.
Eagle we need @hownottohighline to test this: if one side gets cut, the overhand knot will roll like butter and you loose the climber. It looks redundant but I do not believe it truly is... The knot should not hold with dyneema or spectra...
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Agreed that testing should be done, it'd be interesting to see the results. I'm wondering if there would be enough extension to create the force needed to roll (or break) the knot. As an aside, how would you feel if it was a fig-8 instead of an overhand knot in the middle?
Eagle not any better: it rolls MORE I believe!!
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing The data that I've seen suggests that it takes upwards of 18kN for the EDK to roll (which is what the sling would become if one loop broke. Granted, this was in cordelette and not webbing. Again...more reason to have it tested systematically.
why did he say " two bomber bolts" at 1:30, they look fine ?
in climbing terms, when something is bomber it's perfect. so those 2 bolts are bomber or perfect
@@Saemidem but as far as i remember we say bombergear for the gear that is %100 is goinng to explode,no ? if not what do we call for tihs kind of gear ? isnt it bomber gear ?
@@Saemidem when i write bombergear on instagram or google , if what i see is the safer version of placement ,i dont know the dangerous version ,either people love to live close to edge or it is mockery of placement of gear and i dont get the jokes because of poor english
@@sinankalayc1518 What does bomber mean in slang?
(climbing, slang) Completely solid and secure, usually referring to some form of protective gear (n.b. the forms "more bomber" or "most bomber" are unusual). - there you go ;)
@@sinankalayc1518 you seem to be confused because "bomber" = "bombproof" = "really solid/strong" but sometimes people use it sarcastically if something is especially unsafe.
you miss the one I was taught in the German Alpine association... but I can't describe it here in English.
the german alpine club teaches on belays with at least one bomber piece the so called "reihenschaltung". see this picture: 2.bp.blogspot.com/_1dusc2Ou0Hs/S91i8mo4r6I/AAAAAAAAAAs/OqW3BKehKS8/s1600/09_1_schlingen_und_stand-5.jpg
The left one is not recommended any more. The knot of the central piont is a double bowline.
'reihenschaltung'? I still dont understand how they can advocate that one. in a clean, dry, secure setting that may be ok. like, all the old quarrys that are well maintained by volunteers from the DAV. in any setting where you cant be that sure(and any Mountain Range is far too less climbed) thats just dangerous. The alps aint Yosemite.
blindly trusting Bolts in the Alps and risking a shock load? no thanks.
and anyone who builds 'reihenschaltung' on his own Protection is better off not falling at all
Not sure if troll...
buuut:
Reihenschaltung is absolutely not recommended for belays on gear.
It's also not recommended on bolts which are not bomber. So don't trust blindly. Inox glue-ins are very easy to inspect, Bolts... not so much.
My guess why they teach the Reihenschaltung:
* it's very easy and fast to set up
* it's very easy to inspect
* if you do a fixed belay and the leading climber whips, it's not extending above the bolts.
* it's unidirectional
That being said, i usually don't use it, but clip the top of my beal dynaconexxion in the top bold and one strand in the second bolt and belay with the tie-in point of my harness
And as a sidenode: Sure the alps are not Yosemite.
But in that area 60 times bigger as Yosemite NP we do have areas where all Bolts are fanatically banned (e.g. South-Tyrol (Bring Hammer and Pitons) or Val di Mello (bring a double rack)), areas with mixed protection and areas and routes with very, very good protection.
What a crap system. Shock load one and you're toast due to zipper effect.
Those slings are as thick as a shoe lace... why not make them much thicker?
The equalette you are showing is not the equalette but the Quad
In STRADS the 'R' is Redundancy, the 'magic x' has no redundancy, its downright dangerous.
It's downright dangerous in *some* situations. However, there's many situations where it's the best tool for the job. Thanks for your thoughts.
9:33 never say impossible.. and glad i haven’t crossed a climber who had that word in their repertoire
Ryan Smith there are situations where there are impossibilities in climbing. My 60 meter rope reaching the ground on rap when I’m 300 feet up for example, I think it may be a good word to have in your vocabulary so in certain situations so you know when something is actually impossible. Obviously don’t use it recklessly.
As a Professional tree climber it amazes me how climbers put theirs lives in single action biners.
Us tree climbers always use triple action biners because of security rules and you guys go wayy higher then us.
What you should keep in mind is that climbers are typically setting up anchors from much more physically taxing stances; rock climbers are usually more interested in "how hard" than "how high", so by the time they set up an anchor, they are often exhausted. Locking carabiners take more time and focus to clip, and offer limited benefit in many climbing situations, especially at bolted anchors, where there is very little potential for movement that might cause unintended gate opening (when used properly).
@@nikolaihedler8883 well that was interesting thank you.
That's because OSHA haha! Once you get passed a certain height it doesn't matter anymore. Death is certain just as much at 100 ft than it is at 3000 feet. Not sure how some people have survived falls near that threshold but some have.
Thanks for contributing Nikolai! Love that answer!
Your master point knot weakens the anchor by 50%!!! Best is the CLOVE HITCH !!!
Magic X, Sliding X, The Swamp... all these made-up names will make impossibile to communicate efficiently with an alpinist that was trained in a different location.
I had never heard of the SWAMP before either. However, it is perfectly explain in the video.
Magic/Sliding X is pretty easy to translate from one to the other, and SWAMP is just a mnemonic for "Shelf Without A Master Point".
according to your setup/explanation you secure/attach yourself to the anchor at the end of whole process. So basically during whole time of building anchor you are not secured. If some beginner takes it seriously God help us.
In the situation we were in (a 10 meter wide ledge with no overhead hazard of falling rock/ice/etc) this was appropriate. But in many situations, this wouldn't be appropriate. Everyone needs to apply some judgement.
The magic-x is controversial because of STRADS. I don't think its a good anchor to use ever.
I'd say the magic x is controversial because people often use it incorrectly and that gives it a bad name. It's a great tool in certain situations though!
I really don't like the knot on Dyneema sling. I never do that. Check the videos about dyneema slings under dynamic load. Bad idea!
Keep in mind that this is an anchor that he is setting up so he can belay the follower, so the only fall that the anchor would take would be absorbed by the stretch of the rope and limit the load on the anchor. Similarly, when belaying the leader from this anchor, it is important that the belayer direct into the anchor using his end of the rope with a clove hitch leaving a good length of rope between himself and the anchor. if the leader were to take a fall, rope stretch would limit the load on the anchor, and the belayer's attachment to the anchor would be dynamic (being his dynamic climbing rope), further limiting the forces put of the anchor. All of these factors make using knotted dyneema slings perfectly acceptable, or else they wouldn't teach such a practice. Keep in mind that this is assuming that the belayer maintains good belay technique, which is what allows these anchors to be safe. If too much slack is in the rope when belaying a follower, it can dangerously shock load the dyneema.
You're right. Happy climbing!
+Owen Powell Although, there will be no shock loading of the anchor without a dynamic rope in between in this set-up, knotting Dyneema really is a bad idea. The sling can fail at around 10 kN even though rated 22 kN!! You would never use a 10 kN rated biner in such a system, so don't use a sling weakened down by over 50%. When a Nylon sling is used instead, the anchor system is perfectly fine. The knot even reduces the force applied to the anchor points by absorbing energy.
Source: dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/how-to-break-nylon-dyneema-slings/
Personally, i would'nt tie any knots on dyneema if there's no dynamic rope to absorbe the shock. I never do that, I never put any dynamic shock on any sling. It's bad for anchor (especially when you trad climb with pitons and cams) and it's bad for your spine in case of a fall. Thanks OMIKRONPSY for backing me up on this.
I know nothing compared to these guys but I don't understand why people uses KNOTS! No matter what it reduces strength! I use TWO runners and locking carabiners!
😱😱😱 no fix anchor and nooo carabiner without screw
It's widely accepted in the professional guiding community to use non-lockers in this context, especially if youre monitoring the anchor. Toprope anchors are where you might want the lockers.
@@sietschoolforinternational5234 I'm a professional UIAGM-IFGMA Mountain Guide 🧐
In Scotland and France there are often no lovely bolts to practice this textbook stuff.
Textbook stuff ... LOL
AMGA recommends no more than 60 degrees of angle on an anchor. At 90 (in his own graph) each anchor is now at 100% of load.
Incorrect. At 90 each takes 70% at 120 each takes 100% the Petzl chart shows this clearly.
I agree with MrPacobolo's comments below. And the AMGA hasn't taken a stance on this as an organization, maybe individual instructors have? I don't know. I know I teach AMGA courses and I teach what I taught in this video- 90 is legit when you have strong pieces.
13:35
saya ingin tahu, tapi sya tidak mengerti bahasa mu, andai saja kmu bisa bahasa indonesia, aku akan pahamm
I can not confirm or deny your comment ;-)