Using a Cordelette Climbing Belay in 2021, Is There Any Point?
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- čas přidán 24. 07. 2024
- We don't use them here in the UK very much, but should we?
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Started climbing 18 months ago. As a novice climber your videos have been and still are an invaluable resource for quickly and progressively getting to grips with equipment, skills and techniques with confidence.. Well and truly hooked.
Great to hear!
The quad is my go to for setting up a quick top rope on bolts. Super cheap and super easy to set up. I can tie the anchor on the ground and just clip it in at the top of the route
Cordellete is great to have around my way in the US. You may have to leave behind something behind to back up or replace some aging slings for rap rings. Being the less expensive option than most slings. Also bolted belay stations as mentioned.
So stoked I came across your videos, keep up the awesome work. One of the best things I think you’ve said a while back about the importance of knowing the advantages and disadvantages of as many different things is so useful. Such as the KN stress of falling on a ATC guide vs a Gri Gri on a fixed belay.
Glad you've enjoyed them!
Thank you for the videos!
I really like the flexibility of the cordelette. There are a number of climbs where I live where the pro at the belays is really far apart and the extra length from the cordelette is really handy. Like you said, there are so many options for how you rig it that you can deal with most situations.
Much prefer cord over slings. Usually dynamic compared to the spectra/dynema slings that are so popular, Doesn't hold knots as bad after weighting, easier to adjust for strange placements, more uses
agree
Thanks for the videos, I have learnt a lot from them! Maybe one thing worth to mention is that the angle between the anchor points influences the forces, meaning the wider it is, the overall pulling forces are bigger.
I always carry two pieces a short one (prusik for abseiling) and a long one which has multiple uses but usually used as a long prusik to get passed edges (ascending) 😁
Great content. Cords are especially helpful if you are using gloves or are in cold weather where knots may get wet and freeze. Dynema Slings are a nightmare to untie in that situation.
Good point!
Great video. Thanks for the setups.
No problem 👍
love my quad self equalising anchor, especially when the direction of pull for climber and me as belayer are different, especially when not on a ledge and you shuffle your feet a little, and all of a sudden the anchor is al lopsided when using a normal sling setup
They are definitely really good in the right situation :)
I as an american much prefer a cordolette. I use a flat overhand, if I need more legenth I can untie and use it as needed. I like that after its weighted it's easier to un tie. I have and do use slings but I always go for a cordolette. It just seems to be a regional thing as cord is much more popular in the states.
Canadian Rockies climber
with the cord run as a single strand using a figure eight on each end of the cord: clip one of the figure eight ends into your WORST piece (small, weak rock, poor surface contact) and the other end Into your BEST and strongest piece. Next, clip the loop that will provide 2 strands into your second best piece giving you so far 1 stand to your worst, 1 stand to your best, and 2 strands to the second best. Lastly clip another loop from the middle into your best piece providing it with 3 strands. Even all the strands toward direction of pull and tie your overhand or figure of eight leaving you with 3 strands to your best piece, 2 strands to your second best, and a single strand to your worst. This anchor will give you the added redundancy, AS WELL as distribute the largest loads to your best piece and the least loads to your worst piece.
Thanks for sharing :)
Great video! gotta love that bit of dangly string.
Hahaha!
I noticed you dropped your sling, always a problem if using a sling or cordelette is your only choice of building a belay, and it disapears down the mountain or into the sea. What you always have is your rope, and that's why I teach using the rope as the main way of building a belay, indirect belays too, sitting down on the ledge, it just doesn't get any stronger at protecting poor anchor points. Using slings and cordelettes are also extremely inefficient on large belay ledges where the anchors are a ways back, communication! Using your rope will adjust to any length of belay ledge, as log as you have not run out on a full length rope pitch. All said, good video, and congrats on your send. Saludos!
Cheers Mark!
What I teach depends a bit on where I am and who the clients are, but on a learn to lead trad course they'll definitely leave knowing how to build rope anchors, hard to beat a lot of the time!
@12:45 Cutting up a cordalette for cheap rappel anchors or prussik loops always seemed to be the only thing a sling couldn't be used for, everything else could be improvised with the rope or dyneema slings. Cordalettes are nice for sappy tree anchors as well.
That's definitely one good advantage!
I am from the northeastern US and we have lots of trees around when climbing (rock and ice). Cordalette comes in handy with trees because you really aren't sure what size trunk you are going to find and being able to carry something that you know could go around 90% of the trees you encounter and cheap enough to leave for a rappel if you need is really nice as well. Niche as you said though
Love the Quad anchor so easy to tie with this much cord
But only able to deal with two placements.
love my cordelette. so versatile and so quick to deploy
2:46 For a long time I thought one strand of the sling is rated 22kN. In fact the 22kN is always tested on two strands (things you can learn when you are blocked in a hut by weather).
11kn is pretty good, well over 10× my body weight. I've been held by a 6mm prussik and on another time on 1 strand of 8mm acc. Cord. That stuff is insanely strong
That's right, good info!
@@Xtreme_Airgun_Slugs Until it isn't tho. The day it snaps is the day you regret going lower mm on everything.
Not saying you are not being safe. Just be smart too :) Is a few grams worth potential death or paralysis?
@@SonnyKnutson It's all relative, not climbing at all is safer than 22kN, climbing free solo is more dangerous than being held by a 6mm prussik. If your life's drive is all about safety, maybe don't choose climbing. If your life's drive is all about the thrill of controlled risk, don't judge other people by their control of risk vs fun ratio.
maybe go watch how not 2
most falls are 2-3kn and
u will never generate more than 6kn
Never seen the two figure eight at the ends of the cordelette, nice to learn new set ups 🙂
Thanks for watching!
The nice thing is you can clip both 8s into one piece and you essentially have it in a loop config again. I'm pretty partial to this setup. In addition to 8s you can also just leave the ends with not knots and just use cloves to clip both ends of the cord into pieces. You get alot of flexiblity with this but you defintely want to make sure you leave enough tag for the cloves to not slip off (and of course set them well).
being able to cut them down for abseils on rock/ice/alpine routes is crucial... I also feel like they'll hold up to more abuse, especially w/ sharp edges than a bit of sling
Good points :)
The more I think about it, the less I see the use for cordelettes. If you really need length for your anchor (many/far away pieces), then using the rope is probably going to be a better option (more flexibility). If it's a bolted anchor, then a quad with 240cm dyneema sling is just lighter/smaller and provides the same benefits (better behaviors while moving around at belay, lots of clipin points). To bail, I likely still have a few long slings or alpine draws I can use to wrap horns. Or just leave a few nuts.
I keep 10m lengths of Goldberg G Standard mil-c-5040 750 type 4 cord for wrapping anchors. Stuff is hella strong.
Great video! I use the version with the two figure off eights, you can just clip both ends to one carabiner and its the same as the Fishermans version, but more flexible.
How would you go about making a belay station when there is no ledge to stand on? clip in to one piece or something, do you have any effective advice? Thanks
Commercial sewn slings - at least 22Kn as a loop.
6mm cord - 8kN single strand, approx 12kN as a loop (so clipping 2 strands = clipping 2 loops = 24kN)
7mm cord - 12kN, approx 18kN as a loop (so clipping 2 loops = 36kN)
But typically all you need for full strength is around 22kN. (Overall anchor system.)
(Exact numbers vary by make, model and age/use)
Do you have a link to this info? I'm trying to find a manufacturer's chart with this info, but can't find a solid one
Nothing is ever equalized like that, almost all the load is on one string regardless how many you clipped. I still think cord is safer than slings.
Great tutorial,thx.
Greetings from Germany
You are welcome!
Would “pre fig 8-ing” the cord but clipping the two fig 8 ends to the same piece of gear be acceptable in order to get rid of the excess cord…?
What are the advantages of using a cord vs a sling when block leading
Dyneema slings have shown quite a degradation due to UV exposure. Nylon was quite robust. Therefore the dav recomends nylon for belays.
There's pro's and con's to it all. The UV degradation is much more of an issue for in situ stuff.
excellent video, well explained, easy to follow! Question though, and please forgive my ignorance: how does leading in blocks vs swapping leads factor in? You mentioned this a reason you might use cordelette, but my thick head doesn’t see the connection. Either way, the material at the belay stays there until the follower leaves and cleans, regardless who’s following. What am I missing? Thanks again sir!
Good question!
If you use the rope to make anchors, rather than cordelette or slings then it takes a bit longer to get the second safe and fixed in if you're going to block lead, as opposed to just clipping. It's just an efficiency thing :)
I've been climbing for almost 40 years, even spent a few years instructing. NEVER even heard of a cordelette until now! I've carried one, and used one, but never heard it referred to as a cordelette! Just shows that you can ALWAYS learn something!
Cordelette simply mean "thin or small rope in french".
@@Mayalecabot Makes sense! Thanks.
I can't see what you are doing to make the bunny ears thing to make 4 from two. Can you do that closer up?
Great summary
Cheers!
Loving all your stuff but I chose this place to ask if you rack your harness clips in or clips out? As you are filming you return stuff to your harness clips in but your opening sequence shows a harness with a full rack "clips in". What would you say appart from personal choice?
Absolutely down to personal choice. Clips in for me :)
Perfekt video thank you !:)
Hope this hasnt already been asked; If Im bringing 2 people up using guide mode and one climber falls (or rests) wouldnt that lock up the belay biner? And wouldnt this essentialy jam up the system for other climber?
I always liked the cordelette. I learnt it way back in the 90s from none other than Nigel Shepherd. For that reason I found the statement "We don't use them here in the UK very much, but should we?" slightly strange. Nice tutorial BTW.
I think it's a pretty valid statement, they very rarely get used in the UK.
You said it, Schalk, way back in the 90s. As a guide told me and I find to be true for myself, what I do this year is different from last year, and I may do something else next year. Not saying anyone HAS to change, you only have to be safe, and do what works for you.
Hey man sick video, what length roughly is the cord in the video? also how do you recommend to rack it as well? Thank you!
Glad you liked it! I’d recommend 7m of 7mm cord 👊
Racking, I tend to do mini coils and tie an overhand in the middle.
Is it as safe to set up a “quad anchor” with 2 double nylon slings (instead of 1 quad cordelette)?
If it's all set up correctly and ticks the usual boxes it will be.
Hello!
I don't know if this is already discussed but I don't remember it from the old videos. The gates of the two carabiners above must be looking inside or outside? Reasons? I have seen both options
If you're talking about the crabs on the nuts, the important thing is that they're not likely to get forced open by rubbing/pressing on the rock. In this case they are screwgates and are hanging freely in space away from the rock so it doesn't matter.
What Jamie said!
Gravity loading is something I'd normally try and achieve along with making sure gates are away from the rock. Normally "Clip & Flip"!
Good stuff! Not sure I understood, did you explain how a cordelette can help with block leading? Is it b/c it can be pre-tied as a quad and used over and over? But so can a 240cm sling, no?
Can't remember if I talk about it much.
A 240cm sling deffo can, it's just not as flexible due to being a lot shorter. That said I nearly always carry a 240, I rarely personally carry a cordelette.
I think Jez means that it helps with block leading by not incorporating the rope into the anchor (other than if used for personal safety using a clove hitch on the master point). Don't see how that's any better than building with slings though, unless length of sling is the issue.
what's the watch on left wrist?
I use my 240 as a quad. Just no need for cordelette unless you climb where your placements are really far apart.
I'm thinking about incorporating a cordelette on my rack, but I'm still debating if I should get 7mm or 8mm cord. Any thoughts on this?
I think 7 is the ideal compromise between strong enough and light enough / not too bulky
Good job showing these popular cordelette anchor-building-possibilities.
However, I did miss the Equalette here. Pretty similar to the Quad, although, you don't double the sling, to get four strands. Otherwise it's pretty much the same. Two limiter knots in the middle, overhands or figure eights will do fine here. Leaves you with two strands in the middle that you should clip as a sliding x should you use only one carabiner as a master point. Should you work with two, clip both strands indivdually. Works equally (no pun intented) well and can extend further than the quad can in length, while still being SERENE. I would personally use the quad only in situations where you have two very good bolts (great for TR or belaying from two points), as you already mentioned in the video.
The Equalette works great when you have to distribute the load between multiple anchor points (read: trad) as it works in a self-equalizing fashion.
Cheers!
Yeah, that's potentially a good one, my videos are often too long as it is so have to draw the line somewhere!
@@JBMountainSkills Yeah, I can totally understand. Keep up the fantastic work you're doing. Really enjoy your content :)
I only know the cord anchors... what’s the sling set up?!
Have a look through some of our other videos, I have done a few on sling set ups :)
So you would use cordlette in block leading so that you still have your 240 sling for the next anchor ?
That’s what I do
In the case of block leading I'd often have one cordlette and so would my partner. They'd pass me theirs before I set off on the next pitch so we always have one for each belay.
What makes the cordalette more appropriate for block leading as opposed to alternate leads?
For alternate leads you can just use the rope
Cordelette all the way :) Merci beaucoup
JB what sound track/song are you using for your intro?
It is: Come 2gether by Ooy, I use Epidemic Sounds for tracks :)
Thanks
Thanks so much!
Something I've always wondered about with cordelette is whether it's okay to rig abseil anchors with it and not include a maillon or krab, so that the rope is just sitting on a loop or section of the cord. My instinct is that when you pull the rope through the friction on the cordelette could cause it to fail, or at least affect its integrity, but I have come across quite a few of these in-situ where there's no metal component but the anchor otherwise seems pretty well-constructed. Is it a case of people rigging an anchor for themselves and pulling it through, not worrying about anyone else who might come along and using it or is there something I'm missing? Amazing videos man, probably the best climbing instruction I've seen online!
I remember reading a long time ago that even pulling an unweighted rope through this type of setup can compromise its strength significantly. One of the reasons to always bring your own bail slings/cords and cut off/haul out old rappel anchors you find on alpine routes.
Wouldn't recommend it. Saw a guy (years ago) deck from 50 feet (25 Meters?) or so rapping directly from a nylon sling on a tree. Given, he was rappelling (abseil as you say), on 2 different diameter ropes. Since then, I'll sacrifice a biner or rap ring - need some metal involved. Nylon melts under friction.
It's one of those things that's a bit anti social because it's normally safe for the person using it, but after that first rope pull it could be knackered (depending on friction / diameter etc).
Glad you've enjoyed the videos!
I'd say it really depends on its purpose. If it's just an escape for you and your team the just the cord will be fine. If it's for the "community" then a ring is a must.
You should doa video showing the equalette
They're handy in snow & ice, crevasse rescue a biggie, handling baskets, not so much for climbing like u instead of pre-made spectra flyweight.
Cheers 🍺
I'm not positive the downside of the quad in a trad anchor is all that important. I mean yes, you'd get some extension if a piece blows, but the limiter knots (provided reasonably closed like what you had there) would mean what, maybe ~10-15 centimeters of extension really? The energy you'd gather and would have to be absorbed by the remaining pieces would be much less than say the sliding X. That, and yes if a piece blows you have that issue, but actual equalisation would make it much less likely than and "equalized" figure 8, as it does spread the load a little better... just my 2 cents.
You could be right and I don't think there's a hard and fast answer, as is often the case I think it's very situation dependent.
@@JBMountainSkills There's been an interesting discussion with some actual test data here: www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/120916881/the-quad-is-the-bestworst
Turns out I was rather wrong - the benefits of "equalization" tend not to be that great, but potential for significant shock load is real. So on a trad anchor, seems the quad yields little actual benefits (in terms of strength), but has actual downsides in case of a piece failing.
Would the 5mm bluewater titan be okay to use for a cordalette? It has an mbs of 13.7 kn since the core is made from dyneema. It's intriguing because it packs down so small!
So it should be strong enough, but that's pretty skinny... I also did a bit of googling of Bluewater and decided I probably would avoid it.
@@JBMountainSkills okay thank you!
The dyneema cords have some rumors of not liking repeated bending. Apparently, dyneema and its cousins can crack during repeated bending. Actually, I think the blue water and Sterling UHMW cords are actually Spectra core, not dyneema. Regardless, when I bought one and researched it, there was some concern out there about how durable they would be over repeated bending. To me, it wasn’t worth the tiny weight and bulk savings. When you can buy 7mm nylon cord that’s rated to 10-12kN, for a third the price, and it’s known to be super durable, it doesn’t make sense to go with something unproven. I have a cordellette of spectra core stuff that I keep on my SHTF (shit hit the fan) rack that stays on my haul loop on big routes deep in the backcountry. I have it, an ultralight locker, one of those ultralight Petzl ascender blocks, and a couple other things.
@@alphazuluz thank you, I appreciate the reply!
@@TonySpinach A nice compromise is the 6mm Sterling Powercord . Still quite strong (like 19kn) and I think it takes bending alot better. The only downside I can really speak to is they are a pain to cut so they might not be quite as handy in a retreat scenario. It also starts off a bit on the stiff side but does eventually break in nicely.
At 6:45 wouldn't a self equalizing triple bowline be better ?
Sounds like it'd work, not really sure it's any better though realistically.
The "50% strength loss" with a knot -- isn't that figure for slow continuous pull tests rather than a dynamic drop test?
I believe the DMM drop test showed a benefit of knots in the systems as energy absorbers.
Nice video.
Thanks!
Them if the cordellete is 12kn and we used for the self equalise anchor in bolt. With the two overhang knots how much can be the static strength in the system? Around 6kn? Will you recommend it for setup bottom ropes in a sport climbing venue? thanks :)
When I forgot my harness ice climbing the other day- I used my cord for a backup harness!
Hope you didn't fall..!
Were you using a shotgun or lav mic in this video?
Rode wireless, but I messed the sound up in post and only noticed after I'd rendered by which time I didn't have the patience to go back to the editing!
You know, I never even realised that cordelette was...well...cord! I have a 'cordelette', but it's an absolutely fuck-off huge DMM sling (seriously, it's like 400mm). Strength wise it's the same as any other sling, just absolutely honking big. So yeah, that was new for me, I was expecting you to pull out a big sling, not actual cord!
400mm is .4 metres.
A lot of people like the monster stings, I just find they tangle too easily for me to bother with them though!
dees nuts