Are rFactor 2's Physics Broken?
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- čas přidán 4. 06. 2024
- rF2 is quite dated now. When we compare its physics engine to other modern simulators such as Assetto Corsa Competizione - is it found lacking? We dive into an eSports-inspired setup for the brand new Chevrolet Corvette C8.R, and see what sort of unreal shortcuts are used to improve lap times in rFactor 2.
0:00 Start
2:35 Default Setup Hotlap
5:00 '"Hacked" Setup Hotlap
7:30 "Hacked" Setup in Detail
9:21 "Hacked" Setup + Extra Hotlap
11:43 Summary
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Good video, refreshing to hear an rf2 fan demonstrate perceived issues with rf2... not often done... 👍🏼
Gets invited to an official ACC event and days later a negative video on rF2. Hmm. These exploits are well known. As are the ACC exploits. Why not just get Marcel back on another call and ask him about these? I guess the ACC fan base is so huge and appealing you have to make them feel better about their lap times. 👏🏻
I've never been invited to an official ACC event.
@@Ermz OK not an official ACC event, but you've gone from "ACC feels lifeless" to a far more accepting position. It should be noted you only partly answered the comment. Why not just get Marcel back on? Why the provocative video title? It's OK if you are trying to expand your subscriber base by being kinder on ACC and less forgiving of S397/Luminis.
@@spellcaster39ify Not sure how changing ones opinion from "ACC feels lifeless to a more accepting position" is a problem. All these games evolve over time so it's quite natural for opinions to change over time.
@@gross4784 I am naturally suspicious of CZcamsr motives. If you have a critical (negative) view of ACC, you alienate a huge % of the potential "sim racing" subscriber base. Suddenly racing competitively in ACC, making a video about it, posting a gushing video all about the C8R and quickly following that up with a negative video about rF2 is no accident. EH has been repeatedly criticized as a fanboy of rF2 and ACC die-hards do not like these kinds of content creators. He's far more likely to get to that elusive 100k sub goal by embracing ACC and the YT algo knows which ACC fans respond well to videos that knock rF2 off its pedestal. The balanced thing to do would have been to offer Marcel a chance to respond to the criticisms, rather than just post the exploits that forum-goers have long known about. Why did he ignore that part of my question? We know why.
I rate this video c8r out of c8r
i c8r what u did there
Despite the flaws... rf2 is still my sim of choice. I just wish the tracks loaded faster.
Yeah it's a JOKE
@@Cagefighter you cant wait 1 min for something to load?
turn replays off. it helps.
@@ricardomascorro509 The newer tracks take longer to load also because there is tons more details to load up.
Thank you for doing this. I see the level of frustration from the alien level esports guys about all these quirks for months and months and nothing ever happens. It's good to being more attention to the fact that the rf2 physics are LONG overdue for some attention.
What pisses me off is that certain organizers of esport events in my country still use this sim with open setups and their argument is that rf2 has the most realistic physics and open setups allow people to adjust their cars like real life to the different circuits. But all this makes is to encourage people to do exploit setups and drive irrationally and the guy who wins is essentially the one who can exploit the setup the most by working in teams on their esport team making it impossible for teamless people to even be remotely competitive. The fact that their so elitist and ridicule every other sim as they view it as inferior and unrealistic just adds salt to the wound
Man, thats is a simracing...
Welcome to sim racing eSports. One of many reasons it's just not popular.
Best comment. And to you guys, just swallowing it with: 'Well, it's simracing'. Consider races with fixed setups. Where the best driver wins. I don't get why fixed setups are not way more popular. If you're slow in such a race, you know you have to improve your skill. Full stop. You are not left head scratching where in the vast net you could possibly find some witch-craft setup work.
Happens on all the platforms. Welcome to racing sim or not. The aim is to always game the rules to get the best advantage be it tech regs, bop regs, setup tweaks to take advantage of sim platform nuances etc etc etc
@@MikiLaggard Yep, I much prefer fixed setups, I have no intention/desire to spend hours working on setups, especially if the fastest ones are basically hacks, dissapointing and affects all sims
It's funny, i actually started noticing some of these "hacks" on my own, such as the camber and the downforce feeling way better the lower they are set, but never realised it was an actual physics engine problem. If you use motec for telemetry, like i do when i'm driving formula one cars, you can see the camber values mid corner being much closer to 0 the lower the camber value is, no matter the track, no matter the conditions. I always found it really weird but never thought much of it
Downforce on any car? Rear downforce? Thanks
there are some mods which the lower the camber the more grip it has, but none of the official content is like that from what i know. certainly not the S397 paid cntent, that I assure you. go to low, and after 3 or 4 laps the outside of the ire will overheat and you will either lose time or the car
Can argue about the details of your conclusions, but ingeneral thanks for being a critic and shining the public spotlight on this area, please never stop.
true now I know wy you and Erhan are so fast :P:P:P
@@roydemuinck5001 we got caught, oh no
🤣🤣🤣
@@fener488 We all know you're a cheat anyway. #shadowplay. ;)
Oh wow. Detached sway bars are something my buddies and I do in FWD oval racing because you want the car to essentially fall over and load up the right front. If you do it right it literally picks up the left rear off the ground. Really bizarre that rF2 allows this to work and be fast in a mid-engine GTE car.
It works on EVERY CAR in rf2 these days. Every GT3, GTE and even the prototypes are similar.
I've seen people do essentially the same thing over ACC to GT3s and getting better results.
Thanks for keeping the devs on their toes). As the market becomes more discerning , the devs will continually strive to raise the bar even more. Oh, you carry on like this youll have to drop the "least knowledgeable sim racing channel" - or maybe thats not negotiable)
Mid way through the video: did you put real road evolution out of the equation?
If the managing director wants rf2 to be the most realistic sim; they should focus on getting the realistic outcomes, not getting them in a realistic way.
And I don't believe the physics are fixable, game is 7 years old and it seems like they haven't touched these stuff after the release.
I agree with you. the only fix is start developing rfactor 3
Great video Ermin! Rf2 is one of my favorite sims and I believe it is great for its development to have such contructive feedback. Hopefully s397 will give the right attention to this matter in order to crown rf2 as the most realistic and enjoyable sim racing title availabe in the market!
Thanks for this! It supports what I've long suspected 👍🏽
have you ever tried Raceroom? Ive been messing around with it for about a week now, and its pretty great. You can tell they use an older engine for the physics as it doesnt feel quite as "complex" as RF2 or AC, but its very good and feels very organic, very connected (something that ACC doesnt feel at all to me personally). I recommend anyone to try out Raceroom. Its free to download and in the main menu if you go to "Store" you can click on any car and test drive them as much as you want, before you start buying content. And heres a quick tip: if you choose to buy content from them, buy it using the "in game credit" system called "vRp", cuz it will come out much cheaper. For example the full content payed up front will cost me about 90 euros, but if i buy vRps first and then the full content it comes out at about 60 euros. Cheers guys and happy new year! Stay safe
Absolutley rigt mate.
The new R8 GT3 is a blast!
@@memoNo1719 sure is, the GT2 and GT4 variants also feel very authentic and super fun to drive
@@Driftuner Indeed.
I also have all of them.
But the GT3 is my favourite of the new releases.
Best stuff is the Group4😎😁👍👊
czcams.com/video/1OyJKQLaaFg/video.html
@@memoNo1719 wow that is one impressive video! You nailed the mix reality! And Bilsterberg is just one of the coolest tracks ever
Unfortunately every sim has it's setup exploits, RF2 is the best driving sim out there IMO because it's the one that feels closest to the race cars I have personally driven. RF2 is also the sim I have driven least as it's just to pain to navigate, I will always support the development on the sim and buy the DLC's, with that when I encounter bugs I report it on their discord. I get fed up of people just moaning about bugs and cars sliding which you can do in ACC with the new tyre model by the way, if you don't report it they can't fix it. Always enjoy your content, and have a great new year.
Great vid again Ermin, better than the last one for sure :P I would love for you to give raceroom some airtime, it has dramatically changed over the last 12 months in every department.
While i love rF2 i find i gravitate towards raceroom and ACC more than anything recently while also some AMS2 with fingers crossed they lose that bouncyness that ruins an otherwise great sim , but ill ask again some raceroom please Ermin, the new tire model and physics are phenomenal.
Absolutley 100% true mate.
Ayy Raceroom chads rise up!
Good video. Got to keep our favourite sim honest. A good thing you’ll come to realize is that most sims have these hacks and weirdly they have similar hacks (like colder tires better than hotter). Rotating the car with throttle through corners is also very common in sims.
Ermin, please keep pushing this issue and make sure the developers know about it. Thanks!
Very good point Ermin, with rFactor going down a more structured competitive route it needs to ensure that there are as little exploits as possible.
Pls, do more vids with others Sims show this "things" as well. Will be amazing.
Great video, thanks Ermin!
While the idea of the video is good, there's quite a few problems with this video.
Without going too much into detail of exactly what works in setup, yours is hit and miss. The biggest problem in comparing laptimes is that you took a race setup on lower fuel and compared it to a qualifying setup made for a specific track.
The part I'm most disappointed with are the comments on ABS. In your video you say that GT3 have his abs but that is simply not true. The aid abs is completely diffrent from gt3 abs which is attempted to be modeled realistically. The aid abs should never be used as it is not realistic and is only really used whenever real drivers participate in events, not to say I think it is a good idea.
Let me categorically assuage your concerns:
My 'hacked' setup is as much a qualifying setup as the default setup is a race setup. The hacked setup will actually give you better performance in both race and qualification applications, and across the majority of tracks. The neutralized tyre camber and toe actually provides better long-term race performance vs the more maximized toe and camber of the default, so in fact my setup is a superior race setup as well. Those tweaks were not specific just to Sebring. If I were to make it Sebring specific, I would've spent a far longer time tweaking the car's height, rake and dampers.
The carl-level ABS on the GT3 cars is in no way realistic. Most eSports-grade setups have it maxed because, as with game-level ABS, it gives you all the positives without any negatives. You simply stomp your foot on the brake and your braking zone shrinks.
I agree the game-level ABS should never be used in competitions, but it was allowed at the last invitational I took part in.
@@Ermz 'but it was allowed at the last invitational I took part in.' Isn't this the fault of the organisers though? It does seem like fixed setup competitions are the way to go, as there will always be exploits. Seems like fixed setups will get more interest from people who actually like driving, rather than just 'gamers'. That world's fastest gamer guy in your recent video stated the time taken to find all the setup quirks was a big negative, and he can't be the only one. Maybe many more are just put off completely from getting into the scene.
@@Ermz especially the neutralized camber "hack" is a thing, that only works on midrear and rearengined cars like Ferrari, Vette or Porsche, because you´re going to prevent the rear tyres from overheating permanently, starting from the inner edge. Fast setups on a BMW or Bentley, are always using "normal" camber for slicks
Great vid
Thank's for the tip on the abs. i'd stopped driving GTE cars due to brakes locking up. I had purchased this car before xmas and got a refund after driving it due to the brakes. but have now repurchased it again and am lovin it Thank's
How do you set the UI to what looks like a "dark/grey" theme, instead of white ? At 7:32
great video, i'm struggling to get my dd1 to function well with rf2, if you could share your wheel setup ingame and via fanalabs this would be very helpful as this is stopping me from using this sim title.
Good to see a fan of rf2 to positively criticize the game. I just would like to comment that there will ALWAYS be exploits, in ANY of them. Let me explain:
Actual vehicle dynamics engineering require a lot of parameters and a computer aided engineering simulation that can take hours to generate seconds of good simulated results, still to a very specific condition with a very specific purpose. And still require some level of validation on a real probed vehicle.
What these cosumer and real-time simulators do are already magical, realtime complete vehicle dynamics simulation for lots of cars, lots of tracks, lots of countour conditions, lots of atention to graphics, together with netcode and other simplified bot-driven cars of different models. Therefore, these are inherently simplified simulations.
My humble suggestion to avoid exploits is to organize events with semi-fixed setups (only allowing changes to fuel, tire pressure, brake bias/pressure, radiator opening, for example). Games would need to be made with this semi-fixed setup feature. Organization can choose what parameters are fixed, and would need to test and balance the fixed part of the setups to minimize exploits.
Meanwhile, keep up the good work !
That Fallout 2 soundtrack like a champ.
Thanks for another thoughtful video.
Similar stuff used to be possible with Papyrus's Grand Prix Legends (lower the ride heights and make the car sit on the bump rubbers) back in the day, only that you could drive about 5 seconds faster than the in game 1967 cars.
However, that said, I don't think any of us is expert enough to pull the "unrealistic physics" card just yet. Rather one might safely draw the "approximate physics" one instead in the case of the video above, especially if ACC has an empirical tyre model that you verified against RF2 in your Nurburgring comparison and, it behaves significantly differently at this track.
If you try Rieza's excellent Formula Vee on the Silverstone circuit, RF2 seems to have extremely sound mechanical grip (the rear sway bar is again fixed/detached in the default setup) as it behaves very like the real machine.
Therefore, I might be inclined to hazard a guess, that it is the aerodynamics model in RF2 that could need work - the ground effect or rake aspect for example. By adding grill tape and taking off wing the car may destabilise aerodynamically by design - whereas RF2 might be simply approximating that effect correctly when higher wing is in use.
If you look at the setup aero page, there is no way in real life the only available aero adjustment on a car that complex is grill tape and rear wing. So it may be that the aero model is basic and works well only over a range of the setup parameters.
Given that RF2 has a creme-dela-creme tyre and FF model suggests it prioritises mechanical grip over aero grip modelling : however beyond a certain speed the latter is crucial and very specific to each car.
They simply might not have had time to develop everything as well possible yet...
this is the first video of yours i have seen and it's very well made
I always pick up something from a good video like this, thanks Ermin. I have enough trouble against the AI.
Finally someone pointing this out. rF2's aero and dampers setup has always been counterintuitive for me since I begin to participate in local community races with Endurance DLC and official tracks last year.
You can be diving into the final corner of Sebring a lot faster with a lot harder damper setup and getaway any side effect like bouncing off track or lose traction due to poor road compliance.
And getting snap oversteer on the final corner of road atlanta in an LMP2 car at 200~250kph is also wired. (where are all those downforce?)
Plus poor electronic system simulation. I was shocked when I first got the GTE/LMP2 DLC and found out the tire lock/slip indicator doesn't work and s397 treated as rev indicator while AC had it for so long. rF2 DLCs actually cost me more money than all other racing games I bought on steam combined, yet even though its fun to drive and race with community members, it's just not the goto "SIM" for me.
I would love to see Polyphony Digital take the training wheels off there physics engine and let it rip. We all know its a simcade that still offers a pretty great driving experience that almost pushes it into the sim realm in terms of physics but with a Dev Team that large I would love to see them Release a Hardcore version of GT. Perhaps just making a "hardcore" mode in GT7 when it release so us die hards can get more of a realistic sim experience with all the amazing things GT Sport has to offer. So it could appeal to everyone. We all know if PD wanted to make the most realistic sim possible, they easily could with their knowledge, resources, and team size. Someday I could see this happening with the growth of sim racing already doubling within the last couple years. Before, the market for "sim" racing was probably less than a 5% compared to casual racing games but its steadily growing nicely.
GT? really? LOL. ummm no
Thanks. Very informative.
When i started watching you i I thought you have like 1m subs because of quality of your videos. I wish you all the best and hope to see 100k on your channel soon
thanks for this vid, really needed
They need to fix the new UI first, it is abysmal.
You didin't even mention the most obvious one: Driving cars fast should be about managing corner loads instead of scrubbing your front wheels enough on mid-corner. It just looks and feels so silly.
I thought it would be self-evident, but you're right, I probably should've reflected on the absurdity of how I was taking some of the corners.
Tell that to Alonso and the others. They've been doing the same things in F1. Pulsing with brakes, throttle, or inducing oversteer with hard flicks at the steeringwheel just before midcorner to open up the limit and vector the car just right for a slightly faster corner exit.. Yes it's outright terrible style and dangerous but when you have the feel for the car it's really rewarding and gives you great results. Doing everything by the books only takes you so far. That being said it shouldn't be possible to do so on each and every car... I will try the technique in ACC to see if it's possible there too.
EDIT: Just tried ACC with the 2019 488 gt3. No ABS, No TC, Aggressive setup. It does the same damn thing. Just like in RF2. Only it's a bit harder to gauge the weight transfer and feeling less means easier to overshoot and harder to catch uncontrolled slides. Apart from that it's a perfectly valid technique if executed correctly.
@ And there is the Senna stuff with digital throotle control (meaning 0->1->0->1...) mid-corner... They all use exploits in car behavior 😁😁😁 (oops, Dávid just comment on this)
@ Alonso did that on corner entry and for creating understeer. It is very different from turning more for better grip. Actually it's exactly the opposite. You can see how much more rotation you get by turning way beyond realistic slip angles.
ACC on a track like Silverstone is the worst at this. Understeering scrub city.
Well; I've been building setups for some of top teams on rf2 and what I can say is that the detached front anti-roll bare doesn't work for every car and every track; even for the same car it depends on the track, so be mindful about it. also, I build setups for iracing and I can confirm that the same approach works better on iracing; detached front antiroll barre + stiffer front springs.
I'm not sure if "hacks" is an appropriate word :D and I can not also say if this setup approach is realistic or not because IRL teams will never share their setups. But still, I join you in saying that I doubt that a detached antiroll barre would work in a real car.
Regarding the anti-lock aide, it is always off on every championship I've ever participated in. I've never participated in a one-off event so I have to believe you.
@Da-zed Stiffer anti-roll barre helps springs and outside tires to handle the weight transfer better especially at high-speed corners. for Spa for example stiffer antiroll barres are better :)
@Da-zed I think there is a small confusion; the main topic here is about rfactor 2 so the real engineering doesn't apply at 100%; what I'm talking about is antiroll bar impact on rf2 cars handling. in rf2 you can use the lowest static camber (less negative values) + softest antiroll bares without any issues. and the impact on the body roll is not as you expect. soft antiroll bare generates higher initial body roll (tun in) but generates less body roll on exist (understeering); this is about rfactor 2 and not real-life physics. When dealing with sims I personally spend 90% of my time on the track and 10% on the setup and telemetry, because even the basic law of tire physiques can not be verified on those videogames
@Da-zed I have only tried the recent Dallara P2 at Daytona (high speed track) and ended up with detached front anti roll barre and soft rear antiroll bare, and softest springs possible; so for me it is not different; the FFB and tire model do but the rest is very close.
@Da-zed for me they are just video games and I enjoy the competition. I don't think technically Graphics engines and hardware support advanced physics.
@Da-zed Happy new year Zed; my personal view and my favorite sim is rfactor 2; it has a realtime tire deflection model, engine, brake and water temp; more sensitive aéro dynamics
Command & Conquer Red Alert? That's a unexpected choice of background music
I just added rFactor 2 to my library... I like it! Sebring is a lot of fun, it’s a work out!
Great video! Thanks for the set up. I still wonder why you ignore R3E as a sim? Your kind of emersive driving. It just keeps getting better.
I agree here with Jeff. I was going to ask this same question. Try the Audi 2020 DTM model and compare! Great graphics, realistic handling and sounds.
What track had the sand in it plz. Thanks 4 the knowledge in this vid, glad I sub'ed :)
bridgehampton
Can you do a rFactor2 setting guide for the DD1? Trying to get into the sim.
What's the ambient music used at the end of the video?
@@michasmarzewski3670 Thank you.
I noticed the editing in this video is really High Quality.
hey what about low fps when you add over 20 ai, for me is a deal braking, dont know why but even in acc i am able to get over 110 fps vs 30 ai
Have you ever tried Raceroom, I would like to know your take on that, it's kind of in between Assetto Corsa SRS and iRacing when it comes to online races, it has a cheaper than iRacing pay per mod model and uses rFactor 1 physics.
In the past, they started with rf1 physics, but it has been massively developed.
@@ThePape78 True, I don't think it's on par with rFactor 2 but it's far better than rF1 ever was, simracing hardware has also come a long way.
@@fastfolky What raceroom lacks is a weather system. But otherwise it's my favorite. The new DTM 2020 are the best I've driven so far in simracing. With Rfactor2 everything takes just too long. The terrible new Ui for which they need years again as an example.
My concern with RR would be which content to pay for. There's so much of it that you need to be selective or miss out on a lot of events.
Cpuld you try and test one of these days LFS or Richard Burns Rally?
It’s tricky because the reason I love rf2 over ac etc is because of that feeling of control and connection to the car that is probably a tad exaggerated and then exploitable through the setups. I would be bitterly disappointed if they “fix” that and lose that feel of fun on the limit
Why some real cars are extraordinary, and the same brand never did a car like that again? Because they got the formula right in that one, by chance, and never did it again. Same thing in games. There will be always "exploits" in real and simulated worlds.
Tbh they should aim for realism not fun because that's what they've been advertising themselves for which I always felt was a bit misleading
What do you think of the new Ligier Lmp2? Its a lot of fun, feels like the best Lmp2 car in rf2 to me (I'm including Reiza's Metalmoro, & the Cadillac Dpi-VR in this comparison too)
All sims at this level are like this. Hell, the other day, I build a similar setup to yours for Spa independently. Iracing also has those kinds of "exploits" too. I knew about most of these setup hacks dating back to 2018.
Nothing I've competed in is as insane as RF2, running rear wing at minimum with no roll bar to be competitive.
Hi Ermin, loved the video! Are you from Bosnia? Love from eastern Europe 💙
As a rF2 drive since day 1, i can safely say it has nothing to do with limitations of the physics engine. It is capable of everything with the best FFB. The issue is S397 has 1 physics guy who in the past got fired from a modding group because of bad physics. Go and drive the ISI cars like the Nissan GTR GT1 or GT500 which uses the "old" tyre model. S397 also introduced some tyre physics "improvements" some years ago which made the drifting of cars even more important as the overall surface temp of the tyres were reduced alot.
@Wrap Wiggle Potential is one of those words that don't mean anything. Potential is nothing more than a rose tinted hope of the future. A hope that through a miracle something bad turns into something good. Like a broken coffee maker that randomly fixes itself. Sure it could be the best coffee maker if it just worked. But it doesn't.
I always wonder how this statements can be made. Who has every information needed to understand and sum up which physics engine among the sims out there is the best?
I think even Heusinkveld is claiming he can't give any serious answer on this, but parts of the community can? Interesting...
@@patrickfireball5188 just listen to some interview, dennis lind for example who is a big rf2 player (high level) and also gt3 driver, he just say it like this "ffb is good, car handling and setup are complete nonsense"
@Patrick Fireball I think in the end it is also a question of what you like. Some people just like certain kind of feel and then just interpret that feeling of liking it as it being the most realistic. We also like things we are good at so if we play one sim all the time we are going to learn to drive like it drives.
So then when you go from one sim to other you have those same habits and expectations which may not be realistic or could be just your own behaviours you have learned over the time. So when you then drive a different sim (or even a different kind of car) it can be difficult to interpret if the sim is the issue or yourself.
But at the same time some things are easier to spot. Niels made some good observations about the engine and throttle modelling of acc. Similarly other people have noticed the unrealistic bouncyness of ams2. Easy to spot without doing a ton of telemetry analysis and interpretation. So there are definitely things that are easy to spot as obvious flaws.
Not to mention a flaw can be many things. It can be a bug where a wrong is inserted in a text file. It can be bad math or just missing physics component. It can be bad data creating bad outcomes in certain situations, too much pitch sensitivity on aero or too much drop of grip at higher slip angles. Or the physics engine not having high enough frequency to calculate some stuff in extreme cases. Or it can be just a different opinion. For example, are cars driven faster or slower in sim compared to real life? Some people say there is no difference, other say there is. Who is right?
Overall we as end users can rarely tell which of those is happening even if we can spot an issue.
And then there are things that are much harder to interpret because it is a complex combination of many parameters. How quickly should a car get into a tankslapper? Ac-acc-rf2-raceroom-rf2-ams2-ams1 you already get a ton of variety. Those are really complex issues and I'm sure even real life engineers don't necessarily share the same opinion which would be the best simply because they might value different things differently. Just like a simracer x could value more the feeling from neutral to the peak slip angle more than he values the over the limit behaviour.
Then after all that add the average sim racer into the discussion who thinks everybody else in the community has the same level of understanding and likes as himself. When someone says x is wrong he might just think nobody can not know this because he can't. Or you have people who think they know more than they do. And people who just have a flawed expectation of how a sim car should drive without being too vocal about it. Then you have people with huge variety of skill levels. Some person may be basing his opinions on driving 10 seconds off the pace while someone else is right at the top.
I think discussion is always good but if there is a rejection of opinions simply because of opinions then the discussion is going to be fruitless. After all people do not just drive the sim they like the most but they also hang around people they feel like they belong to. So sometimes a flaw can only be accepcted once it has been fixed by a dev.
@@thomassiefert2682 And the GT3 driver Wolfgang Reib said, its the most realistic sim for him. So whats the truth?
There’s a certain speed at which the momentum you built up produces a greater directional force than the grip your tires have, there are many forces at play that will affect at what speed you will experience this; like downforce, car weight, tire dimensions, tire compound and tire behavior. Once you reach that magic number your car won’t want to change direction so easily, different games reach this number at different speeds depending on the physics engine. The flaw with RF2 physics engine is that the rate at which the tires start loosing grip compared to the momentum of the car is too slow resulting in having to much grip at certain speeds allowing the tires to simply counteract the momentum of the car at a much greater rate than in real life. that’s a recipe for insane lap times. They probably know this but haven’t changed it perhaps because with such a complex tightly knit physics engine changing one thing will surely mean changing everything around it! 😄
Also set the tyre pressure to the lowest. The first time i learned this i thought it makes sense as lower pressures mean higher contact patch. Im facepalming right now knowing it might've been a hack as well. In ACC you dont get to do that. There's an optimum tyre pressure. However in RF2 easy copout is set them to lowest.
The tire pressure thing is probably the most well-known. Surprised he didn't mention it. The game gives ZERO penalties for underinflated tires and it only increases grip. Most be some kind of quirk with their physics models.
@@opmike343 im now like a kid who just known santa doesn't exist 😭
Lower pressures always give better grip. The only downside is higher risk of blown out tires, but this doesn't happen in the sim. Still, IRL there's a minimum tires pressure to avoid accidents.
@@berarma yeah but however in rf2 you set this to the lowest and you have optimum grip. However in ACC there's a threshold. If you go lower or higher than that you don't get the best lap times
@@farmboyfanGaming That's unrealistic. Lower pressure should provide better grip.
Not related to physics, but do you have to own all the content to take part in the GTE Winter Series?
Ermin, why didn't you already made a video about new competition system? I had to see another YT channel to better understand it and it seems like a good way to go, putting you on a stint compatible with your performance. That makes competition not a fustrating moment (like been on same track with people making 2-3s less than you in Portland, a 60ish second per lap :) ).
I've been there a while ago, when I tought eveyone was cheating just because I'm way to slow... (and I tought I was fast :)... )
Do these tricks work for open wheelers?
What is the studio's official view on this? Are they planning any fixes?
The constant refresh rate of the screen makes the RF2 very pleasant to fly.
ACC and AMS2 for the GTX960 are very uncomfortable.
Haha, Best time in C8.R at Spa prior using this setup 2:19.1. Beat that time in the first lap and after doing four laps I'm down to 2:17.1 and I think a low 2:16 is easily possible without any mistakes. Crazy stuff! But good to know :)
Yeah, FWIW with the 488 as non-aliens we were doing 2:14s. In the faster BOPed cars I believe some of the quali laps were down in the 2:11s. Sucks, but that's the power of these exploits when combined with exploitative driving styles and lots of time to refine them.
@@Ermz I know I'm not the best but I always thought I was just rubbish at this sim driving thing :) Still rubbish just not as rubbish as I thought.
Why did you neutralize toe in?
All very well comparing Sims but only if you compare all Sims. rF2 drives well enough and feels great but as you've pointed out, it has its flaws and rather major ones for competition, not to mention the UI fiasco. I also shared the same initial feelings of ACC (in its later variant) but that shine has worn off, I don't like the feel of this Sim at all, really numb and lifeless, a knack Kunos seem to have, as I found the original AC, dull and boring also. Kudos, Kunos for the consistency. I kinda understand why you may stay clear of iRansom, it also has some niggling handling quirks and the cost is preposterous, love the fact the Yanks thing their stuff is better, when it's clearly not, by a long way. You seem to have some hang up with Raceroom, admittedly on an old engine (that didn't stop you revisiting AC with some joy) and if you read the Steam comments, which I strongly advise you not to do with any piece of software, then things become even clearer. Although RR also had some of their own handling issues recently, this largely seems to be resolved with their latest update. I only mention RR to you as I feel you are missing out on the most accessible Sim on the market, with a massive amount of quality content, 95% of which drives sublimely, a couple older cars on older tyre models that could do with some love but just a couple, the rest, in mho drive as well or better than all Sims. Dialled in, this Sim will give all the rest a run for their money, and some. Now I feel I can make these comments, as I have tried all the major Sims, please refrain from making the grandiose statement that this or that is the best, until you've tried them all. I promise you will not be disappointed. I fully understand the subjectiveness of my comments and we can all read what we will, into what we want but one should never cut ones nose off to spite ones face. You never know, you may then be able to shake off the moniker "least knowledgeable Sim racing channel". Honest reporting is what it's all about and this video portrays just that, so well done!
Great vid, I’m in the process of finally leaving console play and building a Pc / rig. And do need to play this game regardless. As I just love driving games overall. Just not project cars 3 or gran turismo. But turismo 2021 may change that. Ha. But love this games internal navigation areas on adjusting car components, along with keeping the hud while driving not so in your face. As I HATE how over large and in ones face acc has with their hud, not everyone can buy multi screens to move stuff to, so hoping acc listens and allows for rescaling the sizing of the things on screen, and or make them a little opaque, even project cars has a great option, where I can see the massive version view, a smaller responsive size and the completely turning it off while driving until I want to see it, and while on console for now, I don’t know of where or how to turn my hud off until I want to see it when putting etc... but hoping these companies start listening to the hud and internal flow of setting up cars,,, coming from someone like myself as a specialist in user interfaces for applications... it makes a users journey a world of difference overall.. as always. Keep the content coming. Great vids.
There is very good VR mod for Automobilista 1
so to be fair. i can see that there are some flaws in the physics engine - more complex doesnt mean its allways better if youre not able to rule the complexity. but do such setup flaws exist in sims like acc? i wonder what would happen if you adopt such setup to acc / ac and compare it on a track which both sims have (spa)? i dont want to defend rf2 in this case. but if you going to explore such things in one sim it should be explored in others too, just to see if its an outstanding property of one certain sim or affects all of them in one way or another.
Pretty much all sims have setup flaws of some sort. Steer clear of eSports unless you want these games ruined for you.
"you may think I was scrubbing the tyres too much" now I don't want to be a party popper but have you seen gran turismo sport mate? 👁️👁️
I was wondering if these issues and maybe more have been fixed?
I strongly hope they don't ask players whether their physics are realistic or not when they work on it.
It may satisfy customers, but I believe if they did it in that way, physics, which makes its fans stick with the sim, would be deteriorated.
A few professional drivers' opinions must be million times better than the ones of people who have never driven cars of major categories.
I totally agree with you, the problem is that the hack described is to be able to drive the car in an unrealistic way. A real race would try to race the car as realistic as possible and could argue that the simulation is realistic... A gamer or esport driver takes what the game gives to extremes and gain time when the engine can not handle those extremes values correctly, is not that the game does not had a realistic way of handling or driving is that the game behaves wrong when using extremes values and people exploit those things to have an advantage that is not realistic.
@@michasmarzewski3670 of course... If you only drive gt3 or gt4 series, your know there's a lot more to motors sports that gt 3 ...
@@michasmarzewski3670 unfortunately is know that the engine can be taken to unrealistic level via tuning and each car has it own physics defined... you could have some realistic experience keeping a tune inside realistic values and using a good modeled car... or blow the whole simulation sending the tune to unrealistic values like extreme low psi or decoupling the front bar. unfortunately if you want to play competitive online you have no option but the last to be competitive. I use rfactor 2 for the pure enjoyment of driving and going fast using real config values... not to compete because I know people exploit the engine to the point that is not a simulation any more; and for MY end and use case is the best Sim out there.
Just for reference... here a Master Thesis where the wheel aspect of the simulation is analyzed deeply and technically:
Optimisation of the tyre model in rFactor2:
www.politesi.polimi.it/bitstream/10589/153184/1/Optimisation%20of%20the%20tyre%20model%20in%20rFactor2%20environment%20for%20AVEHIL%20professional%20simulator.pdf
if you read, and understand what is discussed in the thesis, you know the level/lack of realism, and the shortcomings that rfactor2 has (in it wheel simulation).
As conclusion... the level of simulation depends directly in the quality of it mods created (vehicles), a good mod return a near real life result, a bad mod diverge severely from real life.
I realized couple things as well sometime ago, I have to say I enjoy it like no other sim, but this flaws make me scratch my nose...it is said as well that lowering to the minimum ride heights gives you better lap times, which is some tracks it shouldn't work that way, as well as the known fact of lowering tyre pressure to minimum always works better. I do hope that now they got the new UI working pretty well and the competition system doing its job, they focus onto the physics to achieve the level of dynamism and realisme we want to enjoy! Maybe we need more patience to see it working that way
Adjust those mirrors, man. You have a great view of any UFO activity. No idea why the default position for them is all jacked up.
There was some serious problems with the new ui, i only had 1 car, but i will say it looks a lot better. C8r is very good
Latest update broke everything. I was resetting things for two days, just for simplest of graphics and fighting with strong FFB. I believe that they had to do this, but everything is upside down
I would love to see more Assetto Corsa original content. There is something quite suberb about that sim imo
Then you probably need to watch something other than RF2 TV ;)
@untitled. Google how to make a custom FFB profile on AC. You downloaded a couple of apps that test your own wheel and produce a profile.
Are those issues still present in current version?
I'm unsure. The game will no longer boot into the main menu for me.
@@Ermz lol
When you first raised these issues with rF2 on the channel, I was shocked and disappointed - naive on my part, as I too believed rF2 to be realistic in the setup area.
Now, I'm in two minds. Do I use these "hacks" or do I just setup my cars realistically. On the one hand, it is unlikely in the extreme that I will compete at any level approaching eSports in rF2, but at the same time, I would like to know how I compare to other people, and I will never know if they are using these dodgy methods or not, so now that I know what they are, I feel like I now have no choice but to use them.
Having said all of that, most of the time I just want to jump in and drive, and I have to wait so long for rF2 to load, then wait longer for Nordschliefe to load, I will probably just jump in and drive anyway.
Thanks for this video Ermz. I know the Studio 397 guys know that your criticism is intended to be constructive, and that it comes from a passion for their title, so I hope they take it on board.
I really like the new interface compared to the old. Makes it feel much more like a modern title, where the old UI really was dated.
Raising issues with the rf2 team is an interesting experience. I pushed hard enough (by tying one of the team into a few logical knots from which he could not squirm) to have him lose his temper. The reason I no longer use the xplane series is the attitude of the developer; I'm close to the same situation with rf2. Although I still use rf2 for some specific events, I'm actively planning to drop it from all events from around June. The main reason is I believe they are offering too little too late. There has been a flurry of activity from S397 of late, but they have not taken advantage of the current interest in sim-racing in the way Reiza, Kunos, iRacing (kinda) and (I can't believe I am going to say this) R3E.
@@bertram-raven I think S397 have been in a tricky position. They basically took on a project (rF2) which already had significant issues, and they've been trying to fix what they can while adding content to finance the whole adventure as they go. Maybe they weren't in a position to be able to take advantage of the situation like other studios were - is what it is I guess.
As an aside, manoeuvring anyone into a trap of any sort is not a pleasant experience for the person being trapped, and can feel like a hostile act to the person being targeted, so your machinations and manipulations are more than likely going to end in your contact being cut off rather than having progress made in the directions you are striving for. As you've now tried the same tactic twice and not received the desired result, may I suggest (in the friendliest way possible) that you try a different strategy next time? Couldn't hurt.
@@RubberStig Logical knots are only possible when the person on the receiving end is being passive-aggressive or deliberately trying to cause confusion. In my case, the particular S397 bod was treating me as a moron - he had it coming!
Im searching some good inwheel settings for fanatec, dont know what is good 🤔
How about starting with the recommended settings directly from Fanatec???
@@opmike343 hmm i tried, i wanna test also some others, i feel not happy with them 😄 but thanks 😊
Darn... i think Ams2 is going in the right direction. Yes i like rFactor 2. But a revisit to Ams2 would be nice.
I refunded Rf2 as it wouldn't load into VR. Bought AMS2 instead, runs great, lovely UI and enjoying it so far. Plus the devs seem to be constantly improving it.
Honestly, just by looking at it the physics look awesome! If only they could fix everything else though.
Oh man....I've been collecting DLC for a few years and got excited when I heard about the competition and UI updates. This is a bit disappointing, if true.
This issue kills the online multiplayer and competition aspect of the sim, any race that allows setups will be open to exploits, people end up driving in a unrealistic way and the whole idea of sim racing get thrown trough the window.
@@balamacab Asked about it in the rF2 forum and people explained in a convincing way that the video was a bit one-sided and mis-informing.
@@michasmarzewski3670 OK, where's the study?
I come from AC1 and I really like RF2. Too bad its unplayable in VR, due to a 7 year old bug (no horizon lock) but I absolutely love the FFB and how fun RF2 is.
Why cant the devs get their thumbs out of their asses?
Hate to say it but this is why I only do fixed set up races because setups always seem off compared to what you would do in real life and I don’t feel like tinkering with such hacks to find extra time. But then again I just race for fun and don’t take it too seriously. These are still games despite what people may think
Thank you for putting a spotlight on this.
For many years rF2 has just been praised by the FFB and the supposed king of the industry-physics.
Hopefully more content like this will light a fire under S397's a*** to re-think the state they release, new content, in.
Try some of the reiza cars people, you will see how more unforgiving slides are.
13:57 yeah, yeah, yeah - all that may be true but the ffb is utterly abysmal which makes driving in ACC like cooking in Cook, Serve, Delicious
Will you please make a video about the missing core elements in ACC on Xbox? :
No seat adjustment.
No fov adjustment.
No keyboard/buttonbox support.
No UDP.
I just got the game (Series x) for my simrig and it is really unsatisfying and it feels like a complete scam to collect money and give the console customers the middlefinger. Me and other have adressed these things on the official forum, but no one answers and you have the power to spread it out, so more people can see what they are doing here. I Hope you'll help.
I do like rfactor but I think they are too far behind to catch up in all other areas with the small team they have. By the time they manage to get anywhere near to the quality of other sims the bar would have been raised once more. Maybe they should focus on collaborating with somebody else to create a better next gen sim instead of trying to improve their current one.
I think the focus with s397 is to create great content and sell it. From memory ISI never put much focus on the content and just worked on the simulation, theres your problem right there. I dont blame s397 for what they are doing, in the short term it is probably good business. However rFactor was never about short term profitability.
I agree that when dialled in, rf2 is about as good a driving experience as can be had in a sim at present. Unfortunately, dialling the game in is often such an extraordinary pain in the ass that I'll end up throwing my hands up in defeat and switching over to a more polished and intuitive sim that works more properly out of the box.
I'd say rf2 is easily some of the most frustrating software I've ever used. It seems like I spend exponentially more time fiddling with settings and options menus in rf2 than in any other sim, to a point that it can feel like the game is actively trying to prevent me from just getting out on a track and enjoying myself. And now with the breathtakingly bad new UI that has inserted several entirely extraneous additional steps to accomplish very basic things, that feeling has increased for me. Not sure I've ever witnessed a dev team de-streamlining their UI in such a way; it just seems like an enormous leap backwards in every aspect.
I'd liken rf2 to a love interest playing hard-to-get with you. When you finally succeed in getting down to business, it's some mighty fine lovin'. However, just about every other moment spent with it is hair-tearing frustration.
What is the outro song
fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Vault_Archives
'Dream Town'
@@Ermz your a hero XD i knew this sounded familar
I don't know what to think about this. I've heard you mention this before in the past, and I've always felt like it should be addressed by leagues, not the developers. You can do all manner of crazy things to real cars as well, but rules address the exploits. The leagues should be aware of how the game works, and create a formula that removes the exploit.
These are not game engine limitations. They are limitations of the guy that's making the car's physics models.
www.unitedracingdesign.net/product-page/rf2-detroit-egt-2018
ASM has finally got the permission from URD to adapt my favorite car to the BOP of the S397 GTE. It is offtopic but still great!
I mean, I'm sure you remember, I have been adamant about about ACC being better in the past on your channel. Amd I still think the GT3's are better, and the 4's. Especially after re purchasing rf2 to give it one more try, got my wheel working this time. But the imsa style racing with gt3, gte,and lmp is cool. I haven't done it multiplayer yet but I see why you like it. Acc still my Bae though. Not to mention I think the gte 's are better on rf2 than iracing. As far as multiplayer acc multiplayer is great, amd prefer it when it comes to gt3's, but for all else iracing is fun for a few races.
my driving coach has hated rF2 for years because of this. in the end, he stopped making setups with it, and had me switch to iRacing.
Well, we now know that these hacks exist.
It's one thing to use or not.
You say yourself, apart from these hacks, it's the most realistic sim.
I am also convinced of that, even if I never sat in a racing car myself.
I just don't use these shitty hacks to not spoil the immersive experience that rF2 offers!
nevertheless I hope that S397 will eliminate these errors very soon.
All Sims have bugs and errors.
You don't have to specifically exploit them.
Not to discredit your video, but from the colour of the rubber line it does look like the track developed between the hotlaps, which is helped by the AI in the private session who put down rubber.
Isn't it crazy how far you turn the steering wheel for relatively fast corners to get the most grip?
The issue here is that with that setup the car should be undrivable to begin with
Yes. The tyres are ridiculously bad, their construction is way too soft and the drop off is completely unrealistic. It is possible to make excellent tyres and cars on RF2 but unfortunately studio 397s employing of Marek Lesniak and Borda in the physics area, combined with an extremely incompetent manager in Chris E running the Beta programme with people who have no idea how to drive or what cars should behave like. They cover up these problems with a list of excuses from 'we aren't trying to simulate a specific tyres" to' we used real data to make this car'. The setups we run and the driving styles we employ are just stupid. It's an issue which is really close to the heart of all who have played this game for a few years because we know what it was like before the studio started releasing their content and know that things on the physics side have not changed for the better.
Fortunately, physics specialists such as you are here to enlighten us...
@@oxymore4190 you don't have to be a physics expert to figure out how bad these cars are. The optimum slip angle of the tyres are far far far too high and the drop off after the peak is almost flat, meaning you have to drift and slide in and out of every single corner to be fast. The setups we can run are completely dumb and the way the cars react to the to dirty air and many other things are also very very poor.
@@bamy546 of course and as you are a professional driver you know how a GTE behaves...lol
Just wish ACC ran better in vr
Yep.
The bad VR Support is the reason why i dont use it.
Very sad!
@@willyraypaul6617 Me too.
@@willyraypaul6617 well rF2 and also rrre work fine in vr for me or good enough.
rF2 in rain need optimization.
@@willyraypaul6617 Yes ACC can work. But only with a little SS with max. 15 cars and it's very blurry, at least for me. KartKraft also has the UnrealEngine as an example. It works there too. Hopefully the developers decide to support VR more.
Automobilista 2 is great in VR and I am enjoying the game. I bought it after refunding Rf2 which crashed constantly. Didn't bother trying ACC due to comments on performance.
I'm ok these hacks shouldn't be possible. And creates disadvantages on competition. But what's makes a sim realistic is how cars behaves, according to technical specs and especially on the grip limit. And rfactor2 still does it really good and maybe better than any other sim. So not a big deal here, but surely something to fix
No no, no physics update, first we need a really buggy, slow, and absolutely unintuitive User interface for you to select car/track. Even when I'm REALLY in the mood to run some laps on rF2, I usually crash after spending almost 10 minutes trying to find the car and track combination I want and I just give up.
If i could manage to adjust my Drivers side wing Mirror i would be much happier.
It is possible. Use Ctrl+ Seat forwar/backward/Up/Down shortcuts for driver seat mirror. Shift and Alt for main and right mirror.
How about having mirrors that work properly. The actual camera position used for the mirrors is atrociously bad and your own car is never present. iRacing in comparison has mirrors that actually work.