We appreciate you taking the time to do a product comparison. With proper maintenance, our tools have been time-tested and are proven to give accurate and repeatable results the first time and every time.
Hi, I would like to invite you to come by the shop and do a video with me on proper maintenance of measuring tools, what do you think? We could also do something else if you would like. Here a link to video I just did with SECO tools czcams.com/video/mmrrsfdVvW4/video.html
What I would have relaid to your viewers and to me is what`s most important is that Starrett tools are made here in America(but I hear they have been outsourcing to china ??) and the extra money you spend keeps Americans working. Yes the chinese are great if you break one but if you`re paying attention to what you`re doing that rarely happens at least with me it does..If you go on feeBay you can find good used Starrett tools for not much more then the new chinese tools...Most all my measuring tools are used Starrett and some new Starrett and I feel great about supporting American made products ! I would wait and save up to by American before I buy chinese but that`s just me..Sorry, just my 2 cents..... Still think you channel is tops Dale !!
RAIDER69 - I don't know you personally so I wouldn't dare to question your sincerity about buying American. But I have to say that most people don't share your philosophy. Oh, sure... most people SAY they'd prefer to buy locally made products and support American workers but that's hypocritical B.S. I'm aware of staunch trade union loyalists slipping in and out of Walmart to buy a $15.00 toaster instead of buying an American made one for $100.000. Everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, ultimately cares about themselves and their loved ones first... friends and co-workers second. I've travelled throughout China and I know from my experiences that there are no unions or similar factors driving up the cost of production. Of course, there also aren't the freedoms and security that we enjoy in North America (and most of the civilized world). Corruption is rampant and a small group of autocrats controls the population. There are enough Chinese people happy with their system and their way of life or we'd see b;oozy revolution and civil war. Would I rather live and work there? Hell no. But it's useful to understand that their society is vastly different from ours. And since control over Hong Kong returned to the Chinese there have been major changes, politically and socially, within that country. As their standard of living rises, so too will their costs of production. But for the immediate future the Chinese government, their leaders, their billionaires and most of the people are content to continue being the world's supplier of everything. They don't worry themselves with trivial matters like copyright and trademark or the intellectual property rights of anyone outside of China. So they continue building mega factories, copying and stealing technology but all the while improving their product quality. And the world happily beats a path to their door... or should I say store! K... my rant's over.
+RAIDERS69 Not everyone works in a clean environment! You obviously never made Parts from raw materials. That Starrett you hold so dear is now made in China as well. Personally I care less if it is made here or not if the difference in price is a 150 bucks. The Cheap indicators do the same thing. I accidentally bent the stem before, straightened it and went again with no problem. What more can one ask from a $15 Indicator. I have to agree with "taurus dragon" on that one
Starrett tools are an investment for the professional. I purchased all of my precision tools, mostly Starrett, in the 1970s and they never failed me during my 40+ year career manufacturing. I also had a tool box draw of loaner tools for my co-workers who either could not afford or were too cheap to purchase their own tools.
I think your statement " Know the strengths and weaknesses of your tools " is absolutely spot on.. Cheaper tools can be as appropriate as expensive precise ones depending on what the user is working on and whether professional or hobbyist.
Thanks for your videos. I wish I could buy you a beer and chat with you. I just "threw" a chinese dial indicator on the floor and reordered another Chinese one of eBay. I just couldn't justify buying an expensive indicator given my low skill level and budget. I was feeling bad that I couldn't get something better, but now after your video I don't feel so bad! Thanks for making me feel better! Cheers!
That was really excellent information. The real trick is knowing what to use when, and where the questions of reliability are the most important. Thanks for doing this one. I think it going to save alot of us new to the shop a ton of money while we build out our inventory of tools.
I have a Brown and Sharpe dial made by Kaefer Germany I believe and it has a spring designed specifically for consistent pressure. It feels like you are pushing against a weight not a spring fighting back so it sort of floats in and out smooth as butter. Black face with orange concentric hands, it's beautiful. I love it so much I rarely use it because I don't want to damage it.
The difference is Starrett has quality and consistency. The only way to know if the HF is measuring right is having a Starrett to compare it to when you start to use it the first time out of the box.
I am a hobbyist and I must pay for all my own tools. I cannot write them off as a business expense. It may take longer to build up a collection of tools. I would rather pay more for the USA made tool simply based on the fact it helps keep Americans working. I certainly will not pay multiple times for the Starrett name if it is made in China. I need to download a current Starrett electronic catalogue to see if each item lists the place of manufacture. A good friend gave me a Starrett dial caliper. He told me it was 30+ years old. It feels and looks like brand new. The quality of this one item sold me on Made in the USA Starrett tools.
Nice shop. I would have never thought about the spring pressure on a dial indicator. I usually check aircraft crankshaft runout so it doesn't matter there but will in other projects.
Yup! you nailed it. Also, I used to use strictly Starrett, I found them to be pretty fragile compared to Mitutoyo... Mitutoyo is not cheap either!,,, a few years later I went the Harbor freight ones due to replacing them is much cheaper than dial indicator repair... they work perfectly for use on my job, running a 24 inch (swing) lathe and some Bridgeports.. I actually buy these indicators by the half dozen... one each for 3 different contact point styles...saves time changing out the points.,, then a couple for "magnetic back" travel indicators. Keep up the great videos.
I appreciate you for making this content...as a novice to machine work, that subtle secondary quality of "push back" onto the part ...I would have completely overlooked if not for watching this video, thank you
A very interesting comparison. Any dial indicator is a rack-and-pinion arrangement plus a bunch of clockwork (gears and pinions, probably cut CNC in both cases) to translate the movement of the rack to the movement of the hand on the dial. Geared way up, obviously. But there is the spring. The Starret obviously has a better spring. But only at the extreme end of its travel. I would be astounded if it was uniform all the way. Moral is, for limited range of spring compression, both indicators are the same. Another moral: adjust things so that spring travel is "sweet," say midrange. And do watch Stefan Gotteswinter's (Danke Stefan!) video on the deflection of your DTI holder. Not even Noga can beat the laws of physics.
dial indicators will move if rotated or inverted because the gearing backlash changes, Warner Swazey factory tech showedme this over 40 years ago, that's why they only use a micrometer head to check alignment of spindles to the turret on screw machines, as a Millwright used to indicating couplings we realized even if we indicated no outage it was still off a bit but most couplings can tolerate that.
As usual you gave me something to think about that I had never considered: specifically, the fact that spring pressure can affect accuracy, not in itself but by affecting the ability of the holder to maintain rigidity. I really appreciate your video's, they always leave me questioning my methods and generally improve my skills. Thank you and please keep it up. I had a friend who was not a trained machinist, but was pretty good at it: He said that the biggest advantage to not being a trained machinist is you don't know what won't work: unfortunately that is also the biggest disadvantage to not being a trained machinist. Take care. Tom
I found this interesting and useful. I will add an observation of my own. The outer rim in my Asian dial indicators seem to have a tighter fit so when I move the rim to set 0 the indicator normally want to move as well. Takes a bit of fiddling. In videos with the likes of Starrett indicators, the indicator does not seem to move when setting 0.
Great video but over time the cheap ones should be replaced just to be safe .If they last that long as I use mine in tough spots. Whereas a quality indicator can be refurbished and calibrated again.So after a while it's wise to invest in quality stuff.Chances are you can also find some quality used gear and get them rebuilt too if you're on a budget. I personally would buy a used Starret made here before a new one made in China ;)
Great Video. There building a new Harbor Freight down the St. from where I live. I've been in dozens of H.F. yet I can't wait for this to open. I'm making a list.
I own ezcnc routers. We do a lot of field work and repair just about every brand of machines out there. In the shop, most of my hand tools are snap on and indicating tools are starrett or mito. In the field, tools are snap on and indicating tools are harbor freight. The starrett is like a Rolex watch. Absolutely perfect from factory and repairable and tough as nails. Harbor freight is “good enough” but don’t last very long and there is no consistent quality from one to another. That said, for twenty bucks you can’t go wrong. A main reason better indicating tools are worth it is all the rotating surfaces are jeweled where as cheep ones are sleeved. Other difference is the steel. Sterrett steel is very hard around rc62, they get better with age, once worn in, they are amazing. Similar to a old snap on tool box. A ten year old box that has been heavily used generally have slides that move like butter if they have been taken care of. Sometimes, the old saying is true; you get what you pay for.
Then too, knowing the pressure induced by the stronger spring you could gauge how much to compensate for the deflection in your part. For half the cost of a Starrett, you could even afford 2 gauges front and back for perfect compensation. :-)
Thank you for illustrating the difference between a quality instrument and a low quality instrument. I work as a machinist and I to have "A" tools and "B" tools. I refer to the b tools as sacrificial. Some of the guys I work with do not recognize the difference between the two , even though I have pointed out the quality aspects of both. Especially the very low quality of the tools they purchase. Time and again they have asked to use my tools and I refuse. Don't want them ruining my high end tools. They are expensive and I see that they will not be treated in such a manner. Michael
I really enjoyed this quick video. I have looked at the hf guage and wondered if it would work for a novice like myself. I respect your opinion so now I don't fear it. Thanks.
Nice explanation, but dial calipers like that are rarely used at the upper end of their range, and at the low end they only differ by half an ounce or so.
Thanks Dale for showing the actual difference that your money buys, subtle but very important for something critical, especially if you have the indicator on a Noga extended to the max. Having twice the plunger loading potentially could tweak the reading hanging way out on the end of a long arm.
Thanks. Having recently purchased my first dial indicator from Harbor Freight, I found your comparison informative and helpful. (I didn't know my DI was actually that good ;) ) My hobbies don't require that much accuracy, so it would appear that even the HF DI is overkill for my work.
So there is also another way to look at the spring pressure debate, when I use my dial indicator to measure the ejection rod on a cylinder if it's running true more pressure may give me a more accurate measurement of trueness so the tip stays in better contact with the rod. I agree, know the in's & out's of the tools you use but I am a tool guy so I would rather the Starrett if I can afford it.
One of the best product comparisons I have seen. You got down to the heart of the matter without a bunch of BS. Thanks for the info. B-U-T, why do you, like all the other web video makers, have to have the intro music about 5 times louder than the rest of the audio? There are precision instruments for measuring audio levels too. Hint: VU meter.
I had a couple TTC indicators that screwed me over on a lathe job. When new and clean they were fine; the needle showed the correct drop on in and out strokes. When drenched in coolant though, they began to stick on the return stroke. In a situation like this I lightly assist the plunger to be sure the tip was in contact as it should be, and observed the needle was out of position by a couple of thou. This was after I made my cut. That was all it took to scrap a bore. I've never seen another brand of indicator do this. The needles always represent and follow the exact indicator drop.
Thanks that gave me the confidence to make the purchase, I'm not a professional machinist and I struggle with justifying the cost of some of these tools.
Like the way you compared them. One thing you didn't look at and might be mentioned earlier in the comments, the force to push the plunger transfers to the holder. I think that particular HF might move even the smaller NOGA's. Probably not the bigger ones, but the smaller, and off brands.
just an observation from me, I own about five of those cheap Chinese dials(so they can stay stationary for me drifting from one machine/station to the next) and the springs inside them rust and break. I just replace them with a new spring and recalibrate if I think its worth my time. Mostly, I just scrap it and buy another. I agree 100% with the theory of using these cheap ones because, I at least, will break them somehow someway and not even get mad at myself for doing so. My "A" dial gages rarely come out of their dust covered boxes anymore.
Great video. You confirm my suspicions that the import tools are often more than adequate for most applications. I believe that some of the more expensive, or "mid tier" import brands (grizzly, shars, etc...) are possibly even closer to the starret, ames, mitutoyo, etc... in some circumstances, though in many cases they are probably all about the same.
I found a couple of other problems with some cheap gauges were, how hard it was to rotate the besel, and some also were sloppy enough when turned or locked to affect the concentricity of the scale leading to a potentialy significant error when clamped, i usualy leave unclamped an dont move on use to help avoid this; particularly watch the ones with side screw clamping or a screw deforming soft tube to lock
it's not only the spring. every part of it is better. the starrett just like an expensive watch has jewels where the HF just has brass brushes. the HF will wear and loose it's accuracy quickly where the starrett will last 10yrs+
I've got just like you the A and B tools, 95% of the time B tools are doing just as fine as the A ones, and, the best way I found to get A tools at decent prices is to check the still perfect condition used market... ;) That was an interesting video, on something we don't always see as obvious.
The main difference is Starrett is made in America. You have the choice to support local hard working Americans like yourself or you can send your money overseas to pay companies who provide poor working conditions and take advantage of people with bad labor practices.
One factor that I have to consider when buying tools is the possibility that the cheaper tool isn't consistently as good from sample to sample. Maybe your HF indicator is fine, but mine might not be. Starrett may be doing a lot more quality control from piece to piece than the Chinese, so it's safer to recommend the Starrett for critical work. But it's hard to buy Starrett all the time, no doubt. I try to buy the best for a few items which help me gauge the accuracy of everything else, but that's a difficult idea to carry out consistently.
It really looks like there's a place for both. If you're working on larger parts and just using it for center indicating and such where the travel is minimal, you might as well use the HF one. I think you touched on something important though. The mounting arm for the indicator is as important as the indicator. Just get something from Noga. THey aren't very expensive and I've never heard anyone complain about them.
Great vid Dale! Thanks for showing the difference in the spring pressures. I've had to fight with that before......now I have a reason/excuse to buy a high quality one! :) Mike
sprcial projects..what kind are those :-) Good report. I just bought one of the inexpensive indicators and it seems fine. As long as repeatability is there I don't really care about the quantitative values. It's the delta I'm after..the difference hi/lo as it were. Thanks again.
With all due respect Dale, it does not matter what make you use as long as you use the same instrument from start to finish, blimey, when I am doing woodworking jobs a length of wood with a pencil mark on it does the trick......but as you rightly say, who is going to miss $15.00? as opposed to $150.
hi Dale, i'm in a state of looking for "dial indicator".. might be Starret.. i'm just confused about so many models of it.. i just need one or two for motor alignment and at the same time for lathe works.. newbie here, from Philippines..by the way thanks for the videos... helps me a lot!
I understand the spring pressure. But with lower pressure, you cannot use it sideways or from under. That's the reason Mitutoyo offers another spring for up moving indicator use. Now, if a 6oz pressure will not make any difference, why not? But then your holder would have to be extra rigid. Oh my! That's life, I suppose. 😁
F=-kx, spring force is a function of displacement multiplied by spring constant. I.e. Force ("pressure") will always change. The difference between the indicators is the spring constant, and probably some fit and finish.
"If they actually exist"? What else would they do? Jump away when you try to look at them? Where would significant non-linearitys even come from in a simple spring? The Youngs modulus is linear here...?
Leo Curious Springs will always have some degree of nonlinearity, because their geometry changes as they're deformed. If the deformation is very small (proportionally), the nonlinearity will be very small, but if you take it to the extreme, a spring stretched out into a straight wire will not have the same spring constant as when it was coiled.
Nikolai Hedler but at that extreme (straight line) you will have exceeded the plastic deformation point on the stress strain curve and the spring will be useless
Spencer Clayton True, but even if that weren't the case, the fact remains that as the geometry changes, the spring constant will change. Coils with a very low pitch angle will have a very consistent K, but as the coils stretch out, the K will change.
Dale, I own that Starrett dial indicator. I bought it to do differential gear setup for my Jeep. I will be using it during my first engine rebuild, too. Great tool! Thanks for the information regarding the HF indicator. I do not intend to buy one, but that does not mean that I won't. (I own a lot of the better HF stuff.) This video also informed me about the Starrett I already own. I also learned about the Ames indicators, which I may start shopping around for. Any model suggestions for engine work? Thanks for all the information. Liked and subbed. I look forward to viewing your other videos. Take care!
Well, same as caliper: if you have a problem with 15N of force, use optical method. Actually, you normally use indicator to compare similar values, so pressure will be the same every time. So my conclusion is, the same: you don't need expensive indicator, you need other tool.
i have always found my harbor freight indicators and calipers to be quite accurate when new. i haven't retested after long usage though. something to think about.
I have both those indicators. the HF is more consistent on returning to exact "0" Everytime. hate to say it. hf is my " go to indicator for motor work. sickens me to!
harbor freight makes good tools for the man who is starting out if you loose a 9 dollar wrench that's not too bad but if you loose 200 dollar tool that is not so easy to take, and if it was stolen by a fellow coworker that even worse
I just wish I would have. but I did get the tool back the dumb ass left it setting out at lunch time he was one of six working at that station. but I displayed it proudly every time I did maintained in that area made me happy to see them whispering after I finished / retired now still have that Snap-On ratchet
I loved using Starrett tools over the some40 years working on machines. I am now disabled and need to sell my machine tools. I don't know where to go or how to get started. Any help is very appreciated.
The sliding plunger shank on a drop indicator should not be touched, your body oils are enough to cause the plunger to stick and hang up. A rag dampened with windex to clean both ends of the plunger will work wonders. Never use oil.
I use the cheap imports for general duty. Pretty quickly they get rough and don't return well. You have to be careful with them when using them to tram in a mill or center part, you can get fooled really easily by them when they get some use on them.
my cheap dial indicator measures 14-14.5 thou for a 12 shim. i checked it with a 150$ micrometer and it measured 0.0121 .My cheap calipers measures it at 13.5 thou
+Randy Richard I know its kind of a boring video if I don't find a lot of fault in a product. I guess I don't find pleasure in tearing somebody's hard work down to lift myself up. LOL
Very well done & informative video. One question I do have is, I am under the impression you need to "preload" the dial indicator in order for it to be accurate. I just haven't seen any videos on how to properly do so. Would you please share that information?
Here is a big difference. Get that Starrett in a dirty environment and you will find out real quick that the HF still works where the Starrett starts to hang! The tighter tolerances in manufacture is not always the most desirable.
+TheJpybus282 - You Got That Right!! Doesn't matter how accurate it is, if it won't fire!!! I had one, no matter how clean it was, it would always jam on full auto.
I have a question if anyone can spare a minute or 3. . I'm middle-aged, but new to working with tools, measuring instruments, different drill bits and uses for them, sawing, routing, attemptingto build frames, furniture and whatnot for the gadgets that I've acquired within the last year and a half.. The learning process and self education is only about a year and a half old for my experience level, just here at home. I haven't heard of a dial indicator yet. What sort of uses might a guy like me who's not a professional nor formally educated tradesman do with this particular tool. What are most guys measuring with it? Thanks in advance , Charlie
We appreciate you taking the time to do a product comparison. With proper maintenance, our tools have been time-tested and are proven to give accurate and repeatable results the first time and every time.
Hi, I would like to invite you to come by the shop and do a video with me on proper maintenance of measuring tools, what do you think? We could also do something else if you would like.
Here a link to video I just did with SECO tools czcams.com/video/mmrrsfdVvW4/video.html
Yea, like they care.
What I would have relaid to your viewers and to me is what`s most important is that Starrett tools are made here in America(but I hear they have been outsourcing to china ??) and the extra money you spend keeps Americans working. Yes the chinese are great if you break one but if you`re paying attention to what you`re doing that rarely happens at least with me it does..If you go on feeBay you can find good used Starrett tools for not much more then the new chinese tools...Most all my measuring tools are used Starrett and some new Starrett and I feel great about supporting American made products ! I would wait and save up to by American before I buy chinese but that`s just me..Sorry, just my 2 cents..... Still think you channel is tops Dale !!
RAIDER69 - I don't know you personally so I wouldn't dare to question your sincerity about buying American. But I have to say that most people don't share your philosophy. Oh, sure... most people SAY they'd prefer to buy locally made products and support American workers but that's hypocritical B.S.
I'm aware of staunch trade union loyalists slipping in and out of Walmart to buy a $15.00 toaster instead of buying an American made one for $100.000. Everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, ultimately cares about themselves and their loved ones first... friends and co-workers second.
I've travelled throughout China and I know from my experiences that there are no unions or similar factors driving up the cost of production. Of course, there also aren't the freedoms and security that we enjoy in North America (and most of the civilized world). Corruption is rampant and a small group of autocrats controls the population. There are enough Chinese people happy with their system and their way of life or we'd see b;oozy revolution and civil war. Would I rather live and work there? Hell no. But it's useful to understand that their society is vastly different from ours. And since control over Hong Kong returned to the Chinese there have been major changes, politically and socially, within that country. As their standard of living rises, so too will their costs of production.
But for the immediate future the Chinese government, their leaders, their billionaires and most of the people are content to continue being the world's supplier of everything. They don't worry themselves with trivial matters like copyright and trademark or the intellectual property rights of anyone outside of China. So they continue building mega factories, copying and stealing technology but all the while improving their product quality. And the world happily beats a path to their door... or should I say store!
K... my rant's over.
+RAIDERS69 Not everyone works in a clean environment! You obviously never made Parts from raw materials. That Starrett you hold so dear is now made in China as well.
Personally I care less if it is made here or not if the difference in price is a 150 bucks. The Cheap indicators do the same thing. I accidentally bent the stem before, straightened it and went again with no problem. What more can one ask from a $15 Indicator. I have to agree with "taurus dragon" on that one
Starrett tools are an investment for the professional. I purchased all of my precision tools, mostly Starrett, in the 1970s and they never failed me during my 40+ year career manufacturing. I also had a tool box draw of loaner tools for my co-workers who either could not afford or were too cheap to purchase their own tools.
Hi Ron, I like the loaner tool Idea😀
I think your statement " Know the strengths and weaknesses of your tools " is absolutely spot on.. Cheaper tools can be as appropriate as expensive precise ones depending on what the user is working on and whether professional or hobbyist.
there s a video out there of a tour of the actual Starrett factory, done just before the company goes on Christmas break. Recommended.
Superb, thank you. Clear and Concise. An amateur DIY-er who just needs 'Good Enough'. I need it today, but I might never use it a second time
Thanks for your videos. I wish I could buy you a beer and chat with you. I just "threw" a chinese dial indicator on the floor and reordered another Chinese one of eBay. I just couldn't justify buying an expensive indicator given my low skill level and budget. I was feeling bad that I couldn't get something better, but now after your video I don't feel so bad! Thanks for making me feel better! Cheers!
A good comparison with a focus on real world application, thanks Dale.
+Peter Baynes Thanks
That was really excellent information. The real trick is knowing what to use when, and where the questions of reliability are the most important. Thanks for doing this one. I think it going to save alot of us new to the shop a ton of money while we build out our inventory of tools.
I have a Brown and Sharpe dial made by Kaefer Germany I believe and it has a spring designed specifically for consistent pressure. It feels like you are pushing against a weight not a spring fighting back so it sort of floats in and out smooth as butter. Black face with orange concentric hands, it's beautiful. I love it so much I rarely use it because I don't want to damage it.
The difference is Starrett has quality and consistency. The only way to know if the HF is measuring right is having a Starrett to compare it to when you start to use it the first time out of the box.
Thanks Dale, I never would have thought the HF Indicators were any good for anything, but now I can see some good uses for them.
Regards,
John
+Old School Cop Shop
All tools have their strengths and weaknesses. The craft in using tools lies in knowing and using this knowledge. ;-)
I am a hobbyist and I must pay for all my own tools. I cannot write them off as a business expense. It may take longer to build up a collection of tools. I would rather pay more for the USA made tool simply based on the fact it helps keep Americans working. I certainly will not pay multiple times for the Starrett name if it is made in China. I need to download a current Starrett electronic catalogue to see if each item lists the place of manufacture. A good friend gave me a Starrett dial caliper. He told me it was 30+ years old. It feels and looks like brand new. The quality of this one item sold me on Made in the USA Starrett tools.
Nice shop. I would have never thought about the spring pressure on a dial indicator. I usually check aircraft crankshaft runout so it doesn't matter there but will in other projects.
Thanks for your comment .:-)
Dale, more good info and your are still on track, which is excellent. Well done! Thanks once again.
+Jeffrey Vastine
Thank you for your encouragement.
Yup! you nailed it. Also, I used to use strictly Starrett, I found them to be pretty fragile compared to Mitutoyo... Mitutoyo is not cheap either!,,, a few years later I went the Harbor freight ones due to replacing them is much cheaper than dial indicator repair... they work perfectly for use on my job, running a 24 inch (swing) lathe and some Bridgeports.. I actually buy these indicators by the half dozen... one each for 3 different contact point styles...saves time changing out the points.,, then a couple for "magnetic back" travel indicators. Keep up the great videos.
It always great to from a real machines.
Thanks for taking the time to comment.
I appreciate you for making this content...as a novice to machine work, that subtle secondary quality of "push back" onto the part ...I would have completely overlooked if not for watching this video, thank you
A very interesting comparison. Any dial indicator is a rack-and-pinion arrangement plus a bunch of clockwork (gears and pinions, probably cut CNC in both cases) to translate the movement of the rack to the movement of the hand on the dial. Geared way up, obviously. But there is the spring. The Starret obviously has a better spring. But only at the extreme end of its travel. I would be astounded if it was uniform all the way. Moral is, for limited range of spring compression, both indicators are the same. Another moral: adjust things so that spring travel is "sweet," say midrange. And do watch Stefan Gotteswinter's (Danke Stefan!) video on the deflection of your DTI holder. Not even Noga can beat the laws of physics.
dial indicators will move if rotated or inverted because the gearing backlash changes, Warner Swazey factory tech showedme this over 40 years ago, that's why they only use a micrometer head to check alignment of spindles to the turret on screw machines, as a Millwright used to indicating couplings we realized even if we indicated no outage it was still off a bit but most couplings can tolerate that.
As usual you gave me something to think about that I had never considered: specifically, the fact that spring pressure can affect accuracy, not in itself but by affecting the ability of the holder to maintain rigidity. I really appreciate your video's, they always leave me questioning my methods and generally improve my skills. Thank you and please keep it up. I had a friend who was not a trained machinist, but was pretty good at it: He said that the biggest advantage to not being a trained machinist is you don't know what won't work: unfortunately that is also the biggest disadvantage to not being a trained machinist. Take care. Tom
I found this interesting and useful.
I will add an observation of my own. The outer rim in my Asian dial indicators seem to have a tighter fit so when I move the rim to set 0 the indicator normally want to move as well. Takes a bit of fiddling. In videos with the likes of Starrett indicators, the indicator does not seem to move when setting 0.
+LV_Woodturner
Interesting observation, good job.
Great video but over time the cheap ones should be replaced just to be safe .If they last that long as I use mine in tough spots.
Whereas a quality indicator can be refurbished and calibrated again.So after a while it's wise to invest in quality stuff.Chances are you can also find some quality used gear and get them rebuilt too if you're on a budget.
I personally would buy a used Starret made here before a new one made in China ;)
interesting comment
Great Video. There building a new Harbor Freight down the St. from where I live. I've been in dozens of H.F. yet I can't wait for this to open. I'm making a list.
+Garry Fuller Sr
I have been to a lot of them too. I don't know why, but if I see one i just have to stop and go in.
:-)
What a great and unbiased review. Thanks a lot.
Hi Dale,
Great new format, really liking it buddy! Thanks for doing the indicator comparison very helpful!
Regards,
Ray
Thank you for the video. I've been looking for someone that gives honest and straight forward answers
I own ezcnc routers. We do a lot of field work and repair just about every brand of machines out there. In the shop, most of my hand tools are snap on and indicating tools are starrett or mito. In the field, tools are snap on and indicating tools are harbor freight. The starrett is like a Rolex watch. Absolutely perfect from factory and repairable and tough as nails. Harbor freight is “good enough” but don’t last very long and there is no consistent quality from one to another. That said, for twenty bucks you can’t go wrong. A main reason better indicating tools are worth it is all the rotating surfaces are jeweled where as cheep ones are sleeved. Other difference is the steel. Sterrett steel is very hard around rc62, they get better with age, once worn in, they are amazing. Similar to a old snap on tool box. A ten year old box that has been heavily used generally have slides that move like butter if they have been taken care of. Sometimes, the old saying is true; you get what you pay for.
Then too, knowing the pressure induced by the stronger spring you could gauge how much to compensate for the deflection in your part. For half the cost of a Starrett, you could even afford 2 gauges front and back for perfect compensation. :-)
Thank you for illustrating the difference between a quality instrument and a low quality instrument. I work as a machinist and I to have "A" tools and "B" tools. I refer to the b tools as sacrificial. Some of the guys I work with do not recognize the difference between the two , even though I have pointed out the quality aspects of both. Especially the very low quality of the tools they purchase. Time and again they have asked to use my tools and I refuse. Don't want them ruining my high end tools. They are expensive and I see that they will not be treated in such a manner.
Michael
I really enjoyed this quick video. I have looked at the hf guage and wondered if it would work for a novice like myself. I respect your opinion so now I don't fear it. Thanks.
Nice explanation, but dial calipers like that are rarely used at the upper end of their range, and at the low end they only differ by half an ounce or so.
Thanks Dale for showing the actual difference that your money buys, subtle but very important for something critical, especially if you have the indicator on a Noga extended to the max. Having twice the plunger loading potentially could tweak the reading hanging way out on the end of a long arm.
Just starting out and asking the question you presented. Perfect timing on this video. Great job
Thanks.
Having recently purchased my first dial indicator from Harbor Freight, I found your comparison informative and helpful. (I didn't know my DI was actually that good ;) ) My hobbies don't require that much accuracy, so it would appear that even the HF DI is overkill for my work.
So there is also another way to look at the spring pressure debate, when I use my dial indicator to measure the ejection rod on a cylinder if it's running true more pressure may give me a more accurate measurement of trueness so the tip stays in better contact with the rod. I agree, know the in's & out's of the tools you use but I am a tool guy so I would rather the Starrett if I can afford it.
One of the best product comparisons I have seen. You got down to the heart of the matter without a bunch of BS. Thanks for the info. B-U-T, why do you, like all the other web video makers, have to have the intro music about 5 times louder than the rest of the audio? There are precision instruments for measuring audio levels too. Hint: VU meter.
Useful comparison - the spring factor is certainly significant.
Thanks Dale.
+ChrisB257
Thanks
+ChrisB257 yeah, I keep my starrett indicators put away for special times and use those Harbor Freight ones for everyday machine work.
Love that shop! So neat- now make us feel better and show us the other end of the shop.
I can show you the other side of the shop. there are top secret project hiding in the mess over there. Lol
I had a couple TTC indicators that screwed me over on a lathe job. When new and clean they were fine; the needle showed the correct drop on in and out strokes. When drenched in coolant though, they began to stick on the return stroke. In a situation like this I lightly assist the plunger to be sure the tip was in contact as it should be, and observed the needle was out of position by a couple of thou. This was after I made my cut. That was all it took to scrap a bore. I've never seen another brand of indicator do this. The needles always represent and follow the exact indicator drop.
Thanks that gave me the confidence to make the purchase, I'm not a professional machinist and I struggle with justifying the cost of some of these tools.
+nakternal
Glad I could help
I have 2 of the Harbor Freight indicators on my home made tram tool, works great.
Hey great video, very useful information your just a few days late. I just bought a new Starrett the other day. But now I know for next time.
+The Texas Gun Guy
Good tools are alway a good investment.
You always have great info, love your honesty!!
Like the way you compared them. One thing you didn't look at and might be mentioned earlier in the comments, the force to push the plunger transfers to the holder. I think that particular HF might move even the smaller NOGA's. Probably not the bigger ones, but the smaller, and off brands.
+Paul Frederick that makes sense...
Perfect. Your video helped me make my decision about buying my first dial indicator. Thanks, thumbs up, & subscribed.
+Bourne Accident
Im glade I could help :-)
Dale knows dials. I always wondered and now I know. Thanks!
+Pithy Bikes
My pleasure
Great video Dale! Always wondered what the difference was, now I know. Thank you.
+jjs4x
Thanks
just an observation from me, I own about five of those cheap Chinese dials(so they can stay stationary for me drifting from one machine/station to the next) and the springs inside them rust and break. I just replace them with a new spring and recalibrate if I think its worth my time. Mostly, I just scrap it and buy another. I agree 100% with the theory of using these cheap ones because, I at least, will break them somehow someway and not even get mad at myself for doing so. My "A" dial gages rarely come out of their dust covered boxes anymore.
+Arock PCB
Thanks for your comment :-)
Thanks man, I was just looking at the HF stuff the other day. Now I'll get one and understand its limitations. Thanks!
+HardwayRanch
I'm glad you liked it.
Great video. You confirm my suspicions that the import tools are often more than adequate for most applications. I believe that some of the more expensive, or "mid tier" import brands (grizzly, shars, etc...) are possibly even closer to the starret, ames, mitutoyo, etc... in some circumstances, though in many cases they are probably all about the same.
I agree
I found a couple of other problems with some cheap gauges were, how hard it was to rotate the besel, and some also were sloppy enough when turned or locked to affect the concentricity of the scale leading to a potentialy significant error when clamped, i usualy leave unclamped an dont move on use to help avoid this; particularly watch the ones with side screw clamping or a screw deforming soft tube to lock
Good information - thank you. It is still hard to understand how a better spring is worth that much more.
it's not only the spring. every part of it is better. the starrett just like an expensive watch has jewels where the HF just has brass brushes. the HF will wear and loose it's accuracy quickly where the starrett will last 10yrs+
I've got just like you the A and B tools, 95% of the time B tools are doing just as fine as the A ones, and, the best way I found to get A tools at decent prices is to check the still perfect condition used market... ;)
That was an interesting video, on something we don't always see as obvious.
+pierre beaudry
Thanks for your comment
Well done, valuable information in some circumstances
+Doug Hibberd
Thanks
I was wondering about this exact topic just yesterday. thanks for sharing!
+joefriday1982 thanks for your comment😀
Awesome well thought out explanation.
The main difference is Starrett is made in America. You have the choice to support local hard working Americans like yourself or you can send your money overseas to pay companies who provide poor working conditions and take advantage of people with bad labor practices.
One factor that I have to consider when buying tools is the possibility that the cheaper tool isn't consistently as good from sample to sample. Maybe your HF indicator is fine, but mine might not be. Starrett may be doing a lot more quality control from piece to piece than the Chinese, so it's safer to recommend the Starrett for critical work. But it's hard to buy Starrett all the time, no doubt. I try to buy the best for a few items which help me gauge the accuracy of everything else, but that's a difficult idea to carry out consistently.
+Lawman212
I do the same think. I have my "A" tool for critical work. I my "B" tools/harbor freight are for daily work
It really looks like there's a place for both. If you're working on larger parts and just using it for center indicating and such where the travel is minimal, you might as well use the HF one. I think you touched on something important though. The mounting arm for the indicator is as important as the indicator. Just get something from Noga. THey aren't very expensive and I've never heard anyone complain about them.
Great vid Dale! Thanks for showing the difference in the spring pressures. I've had to fight with that before......now I have a reason/excuse to buy a high quality one! :)
Mike
+bluehandsvideo
Glade I could help.
The Starrett should be jeweled pivot Points like in an expensive watch!
EXCELLENT Review... thanx... always wondered about HF v. 'real' tools.
Nice comparisation :)
Btw. The noga will also bend under the load of the indicator ;)
+Stefan Gotteswinter
I kinda miss spoke about the Noga. I should of said it a different way. :-)
+Metal Tips and Tricks (Dale Derry) Sorry, didnt want to sound gnarly - But I had to point _something_ out ;)
Apart from that great video!
Even though you are making somewhat of a fair comparison there is no way to compare oranges to apples
hi dale, thanks for this video, I enjoyed it very much!
Greetings from Germany,
A.R.
Hi Ruppi, Glade you liked the video
sprcial projects..what kind are those :-) Good report. I just bought one of the inexpensive indicators and it seems fine. As long as repeatability is there I don't really care about the quantitative values. It's the delta I'm after..the difference hi/lo as it were. Thanks again.
Good information. Thanks Dale.
With all due respect Dale, it does not matter what make you use as long as you use the same instrument from start to finish, blimey, when I am doing woodworking jobs a length of wood with a pencil mark on it does the trick......but as you rightly say, who is going to miss $15.00? as opposed to $150.
hi Dale, i'm in a state of looking for "dial indicator".. might be Starret.. i'm just confused about so many models of it.. i just need one or two for motor alignment and at the same time for lathe works.. newbie here, from Philippines..by the way thanks for the videos... helps me a lot!
Good topic and treatment--Thanks!
+Rick Rose
Thank you for your positive comment.
Dale d
Thanks for sharing
I understand the spring pressure. But with lower pressure, you cannot use it sideways or from under. That's the reason Mitutoyo offers another spring for up moving indicator use.
Now, if a 6oz pressure will not make any difference, why not? But then your holder would have to be extra rigid. Oh my! That's life, I suppose. 😁
F=-kx, spring force is a function of displacement multiplied by spring constant. I.e. Force ("pressure") will always change. The difference between the indicators is the spring constant, and probably some fit and finish.
If you believe that linear springs actually exist.
"If they actually exist"? What else would they do? Jump away when you try to look at them?
Where would significant non-linearitys even come from in a simple spring? The Youngs modulus is linear here...?
Leo Curious Springs will always have some degree of nonlinearity, because their geometry changes as they're deformed. If the deformation is very small (proportionally), the nonlinearity will be very small, but if you take it to the extreme, a spring stretched out into a straight wire will not have the same spring constant as when it was coiled.
Nikolai Hedler but at that extreme (straight line) you will have exceeded the plastic deformation point on the stress strain curve and the spring will be useless
Spencer Clayton True, but even if that weren't the case, the fact remains that as the geometry changes, the spring constant will change. Coils with a very low pitch angle will have a very consistent K, but as the coils stretch out, the K will change.
great vid and thanks for the info and Thanks Robert
+robert anderson
My pleasure.
The harbor freight will do fine for me. I might measure up to .100" - .150" at the most.
VERY helpful! Thanks for the post!!
+smahalko
Thank you
I have a 40+ year old Ames indicator and it still works great. My Peacock indicator i had to hone the rack before it worked properly
+Bob Cartwright
Think Ames make some of the best Indicators out there. I own 4 of them. :-)
Dale, I own that Starrett dial indicator. I bought it to do differential gear setup for my Jeep. I will be using it during my first engine rebuild, too. Great tool! Thanks for the information regarding the HF indicator. I do not intend to buy one, but that does not mean that I won't. (I own a lot of the better HF stuff.) This video also informed me about the Starrett I already own. I also learned about the Ames indicators, which I may start shopping around for. Any model suggestions for engine work? Thanks for all the information. Liked and subbed. I look forward to viewing your other videos. Take care!
Well, same as caliper: if you have a problem with 15N of force, use optical method. Actually, you normally use indicator to compare similar values, so pressure will be the same every time. So my conclusion is, the same: you don't need expensive indicator, you need other tool.
Sage advise.
Don't like the heavier spring tension? take the back off and swap out the spring for a lighter one. It only takes 2 minutes.
i have always found my harbor freight indicators and calipers to be quite accurate when new. i haven't retested after long usage though.
something to think about.
I have a Starrett dial indicator that has survived 20 years of my abuse. :)
I have both those indicators. the HF is more consistent on returning to exact "0" Everytime. hate to say it. hf is my " go to indicator for motor work.
sickens me to!
harbor freight makes good tools for the man who is starting out if you loose a 9 dollar wrench that's not too bad but if you loose 200 dollar tool that is not so easy to take, and if it was stolen by a fellow coworker that even worse
I agree 100%
And if you catch that thief co-worker a HF ratchet can be used to beat the shit out of them as affectively as a snap-on could.
I just wish I would have. but I did get the tool back the dumb ass left it setting out at lunch time he was one of six working at that station. but I displayed it proudly every time I did maintained in that area made me happy to see them whispering after I finished / retired now still have that Snap-On ratchet
+Phill Huddleston - Amen Brother, AMEN!
Good info... Tks
+outsidescrewball
Thanks
I loved using Starrett tools over the some40 years working on machines. I am now disabled and need to sell my machine tools. I don't know where to go or how to get started. Any help is very appreciated.
The sliding plunger shank on a drop indicator should not be touched, your body oils are enough to cause the plunger to stick and hang up. A rag dampened with windex to clean both ends of the plunger will work wonders. Never use oil.
Nice video
Great video! Thanks!
Good to know.
Thanks,
John
+John Bazaar
Im glade you liked it
What is the spring pressure on the Ames?
I use the cheap imports for general duty. Pretty quickly they get rough and don't return well. You have to be careful with them when using them to tram in a mill or center part, you can get fooled really easily by them when they get some use on them.
+joshua43214
Thats good point :-)
my cheap dial indicator measures 14-14.5 thou for a 12 shim. i checked it with a 150$ micrometer and it measured 0.0121 .My cheap calipers measures it at 13.5 thou
You can actually buy the Starrett ones cheap on Ebay.
+1970chevelle396 For the record, I only payed $20 for the start.:-)
Ok Positive.
+Randy Richard
I know its kind of a boring video if I don't find a lot of fault in a product. I guess I don't find pleasure in tearing somebody's hard work down to lift myself up. LOL
Very well done & informative video. One question I do have is, I am under the impression you need to "preload" the dial indicator in order for it to be accurate. I just haven't seen any videos on how to properly do so. Would you please share that information?
I guess he forgets about his older videos and moves on. :(
Thanks for your reply! I will just google it and see what happens or stop by my local machine shop by work. Take care.
*****
If you find out the answer please come back and reply. :)
Thanks, now I know that I don't need the High $ one for my Harbor freight wood lathe.
Thanks for your comment.Glad I could help.
You are welcome.
Here is a big difference. Get that Starrett in a dirty environment and you will find out real quick that the HF still works where the Starrett starts to hang! The tighter tolerances in manufacture is not always the most desirable.
Sort of like the sks versus the early m16.
+TheJpybus282 - You Got That Right!! Doesn't matter how accurate it is, if it won't fire!!! I had one, no matter how clean it was, it would always jam on full auto.
very interesting video.
I have a question if anyone can spare a minute or 3. . I'm middle-aged, but new to working with tools, measuring instruments, different drill bits and uses for them, sawing, routing, attemptingto build frames, furniture and whatnot for the gadgets that I've acquired within the last year and a half..
The learning process and self education is only about a year and a half old for my experience level, just here at home.
I haven't heard of a dial indicator yet. What sort of uses might a guy like me who's not a professional nor formally educated tradesman do with this particular tool. What are most guys measuring with it?
Thanks in advance ,
Charlie
Nice - Thanks