Should Proxies be Allowed in Commander? | EDH | Proxy Dilemma | Magic the Gathering | Commander
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- čas přidán 26. 07. 2024
- The Commander's Quarters is your Magic the Gathering source that helps you Command Your Budget! Today Eric joins Mitch to discuss if proxies should be allowed in Commander!
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The two arguments are basically “I spent 500 dollars on this card so you shouldn’t be allowed to play a knockoff” and “fuck you im not spending 500 dollars per land.”
'I don't want to play versus your deck, I want to play versus your wallet.'
Good players don’t have to run expensive decks. But if you want a deck that plays the expensive way you do.
As somebody who has assembled one of each shock, hybrid, and triome, along with a few other pricey lands, nothing would make me happier than seeing that binder lose like $600 in value overnight (well, severap things would make me happier, but it's still something I want to see :P).
@@dapperghastmeowregard I also have some expensive cards. I’d be ok with that too.
@@awookiefromendor Some commanders need expensive cards to work correctly
I proxy cards I own. I have 15 commander decks and want to build more, but I don’t want to buy 15+ copies of fetches and other staples.
I feel that, I just build most of my decks to not depend on fetches so the 2 sets of fetches I have stay in my better decks.
I'm broke bc I'm that fool who buys 15 copies 😆😆 i recommend that to most people though just buy 1 and get an alternate art version there's many sites
We do the same, like yeah I'm not buying 12 different Mana Crypts. Lol
I have a little box of real cards that I proxy in each deck and when the proxy appears I swap it with the real one.
I agree with this. I proxy cards I own if I want custom art, or a foil version of a card that has never had a foil printing, or a certain style border if the card wasn't printed with it, etc.
Commander is an inherently low stakes, social oriented format. As long as the play group has no qualms play what you like
Commander is a low stakes, social oriented format so you shouldnt have to fake powerful cards to fit into a group. Play within your means
@@commanderdark824 yeah but if your group wants/is playing with powerful cards that you cant afford then you should be allowed to join them.
@@commanderdark824 that's dumb. Play what makes sense to the group. If the group likes you and wants you to come back and you're willing to spend 80$ on a deck which would actually cost thousands. Would the group rather you come with a weak deck and get smashed endlessly? I doubt it.
@@commanderdark824 "Play within your means" ...oof
Exactly. I have a Torbran, Thane id Red Fell deck that has a few proxies in it Bc I can’t buy the rest of the cards. And I’m just trying to test them out to see if I want them (ie. Chandra Ablaze)
once we switched to 100% proxies after years of resisting, our enjoyment went through the roof! 10/10 highly recommend, especially if you enjoy playing strong cards but don't want to live in poverty just to play a game with your friends
An unintended consequence of me starting to make decks out of proxies is that my knowledge of the game has increased by a country mile! So that, when I actually go to my LGS and buy up my favorite Commander Deck, I'm confident in the deck I've built. I'm confident it plays how I like and it plays well enough to do well.
Especially in the current times, I just want to play. If you need to play a proxy, go for it; I just want to play. I only ask that it be a good enough proxy so that I can recognize the card by its art when it's on the battlefield.
I like this mentality. it's also fun to see how the pro-proxy folks are mostly divided into two groups: those that want similar art so they can recognize the cards, and those that want the proxy to be very different so you can tell that it's not the real deal. Im in the first group as well
Yeah my buddy just writes the name of a card on a land card. Unreadable bullshit.
what about like orica art? it's obviously a proxy and sometimes it can be a very different art, like I looked at an urza orica because I wanted to see if there was a cooler artwork but it looks like maltheal from diablo 3
@@lorddracon8992 dude alt art proxies are so bad ass.
@@lorddracon8992 I have nothing against alt-art proxies. I probably should have said "so that I can distinguish", instead of "recognize." There's plenty of actual cards I don't recognize. I mainly just want to be able to track the game state. I don't like sharpie on basic lands, because when I look across the board, my eyes tell me "Basic Forest" instead of Sylvan Library.
Considering how WotC overcharges egregiously for useful reprints, yeah I don't care about proxies as long as it doesn't make the player's deck too strong compared to the table.
Get a hobby you can afford like hitting rats with a spade.
@@Sajuek lol sad
@@Sajuek gatekeeping a childrens card game lmao
So it's okay for someone to be OP at the table as long as they've paid for the privilege to do so? Is the issue someone paying for their cards or everyone being salty they're getting stomped? I guarantee no one is going to feel any better if it's a legit deck or not. Why not address the actual issue of being too strong at the table?
@@Sajuek and that kinded talk kills the community
my playgroup decided to ban oficial cards.
only proxies allowed
My man
I would like to plsy in this play group but i want you to know id vreate super janky joke decks with like 1 win condition
Only way to get my Narset solitare deck rolling.
Our play group plays the same way. Happy to see there are other people out there.
Basically same for us.. no official ban though
If you plan to proxy, at least be kind to the other players. Put all of the rules text on the proxy, instead of just the card name. Nothing is worse than someone playing Cromat, Necropotence, something else complicated, or something obscure, and the player says; "Trust me. This is what the card does."
its so easy to print out proxies from websites like moxfield, then i just slide the cutout into a sleeved land card
I agree on this 100%! A buddy of mine has proxies of cards that are just the name of the card. However, he is really nice about it and has a binder with all the actual cards to show everyone the ruling and text of the card played. I think it’s smart and easy. That way, he doesn’t have to buy 4 copies of the same card for 4 different decks and can have them easily accessible to him at all times. If he plays with other people he lets them know too.
I like it also to be the same art and color as the card because I'm visual and recognize cards as such.. if they're all black and white with rules text and no art it sucks
My group heavily uses proxies, mainly to test out cards or decks before we purchase. We generally have a rule of no proxying cards you wouldn't buy to maintain our power level
Fair compromise
That's a fair house rule but confuses the issue, if Iyour friend won a couple grand and they buy op cards are they allowed to show up and pub stomp the pod? If not then whether they proxy or own isn't the issue your, house rule is just to chill powerlevel.
Do you have a time limit for how long a person can proxy before buying the card. Because if they proxy for 2 months and still haven't bought the card then it turns out that they really wouldn't have bought it after all.
This is the better take on proxies imo... But there is also the unwritten social contract of power level, I mean, a player should only proxy if that will help them get on par with the other players.. For example if everyone got fast mana but one player doesn't, then for sure let that player proxy.. But if everyone else is on sol ring and signets then by no means anyone should be allowed to proxy fast mana. And no one should proxy forever, if you proxy, make sure you will eventually buy the card..otherwise your group got a power level issue, not a proxy issue
@@oscarbautista4156 your conflating issues as people commonly do, if they can affor fast mana instead of proxies is constantly trying to 1 up the group ok all of a sudden? Probably not, because the proxies aren't the issue, the issue is that having an arms race, whether it's with proxies or real cards, can be toxic. And if the whole pod wants to play at high power levels and 1 member happens to be less affluent there's no good reason to exlude them even if they don't have the means to get the real cards for the foreseeable future.
I was SO HAPPY when I discovered proxies. I needed so many like, 30$ or 40$ cards and I was happy when I could finally build the decks I wanted to build. (Anointed procession, swords, stuff like that level) and I love buying the custom art cards. Some are very well designed. Wizards could take notes on some of this art.
I've only used a proxy once in EDH: Forest Bear. Because I wasn't going to spend $40 on a vanilla 2/2 for 2, if I can even find one at an LGS.
Edit: To head off the question of why I want one, it was for Graham Stark's Bear Force One deck.
I'm brewing an Ayula deck, but something about paying 3 or 4 dollars for some of the bears just because they are "rarer" is making me give up
damn, I really sold mine to my brother at 15 bucks? smh should have waited
@@vasylpark2149 Many of the shapeshifters don't do much and are very much overcosted, somewhere around 3-5 mana. When making a good mana curve, you may need a lower costed bear. Also, Ayula is only mono-green and there are 5 changelings in green. Many of them are 4 mana or higher
@@rainpants7450 Of the 6 Changelings with green or colorless color identity, one is 1 cmc, another is 2 cmc, a third is 4 cmc and the final three are 5 cmc
You sir do not have the commitment required to play our Queen's deck...
Question for Mitch: why would you not have the same reaction to someone playing a "legit" alpha dual? Why wouldn't you still roll your eyes and question if they really need that in the deck? If you're fine with them playing the "legit" card, why should the proxy be any different? The only difference I can see is how much money the person has to throw at pieces of cardboard.
There's some double standards throughout this video..
Mitch was on Command Knights once. Jimmy was throwing out a million Alpha Dual Lands.
Jimmy: "Oops. I can't search for any more basic lands."
Mitch: "Maybe you should try playing more budget."
For context Mitch was playing a WUBRG deck with a budget land base. Jimmy had 3 colors, and less than 10 basic lands.
On top of that Mitch was so successful that all the other players had to team up on him for 3 full turns to stop him.
You really don't need Alpha Duals. They don't actually win you the game. It's just a bit tryhard. Real or Proxy.
Gaea's Cradle on the other hand does win you the game. Proxy that.
I don't know why the Magic community struggles to understand the difference between "real" and "fake", but comments like this crack me up.
Proxies will be needed as long as the Reserved List is a thing.
I strongly believe the cards am that are currently on reserve that may be unaffordable will not be that much more affordable if reprinted for those same people
Disagree.
@@DVS57REBEL it would definitely take multiple printings before they would be affordable for most people. I played magic at a time when the price of unlimited duals and shock lands where within $10 of each other. Supply just has to meet demand.
The reserved list is unnecessary.
@@derekfullum6390
Great argument with valid points. I definitely see where you're coming from and why you believe that.
Wait...
Mtg is about the gameplay, not your disposable income.
Couldn't agree more, when I play versus someone, I want my skill to outperform the other player, not my wallet.
Yeah if I give a 15k deck to my 12 year old brother who doesn’t play he’s not gonna suddenly beat everyone he meets.
It's about both. It's literally a collectible trading card game. You can't collect - or trade - the cards if they're all proxies. Saying the game is JUST about the gameplay means that everyone who cares about the artwork on cards doesn't matter. Saying the game is JUST about the gameplay means that everyone who cares about the lore is irrelevant. Saying that the game is JUST about the gameplay invalidates the entire GATHERING part of Magic the GATHERING.
So yeah, MTG is about both and more, like it or not.
I like when people try to flex with a mana drain or something. I give more props to someone playing spell swindle or something
That is just not true. Maybe it's the way you want it to be.
I have a complete proxy deck just out of spite. Every. Single. Forest.
Props m8
Appreciated HAHAHA
Do you have pics? I really want to see! I saw someone who did it on r/EDH, but they went and actually did art for each card and it was really good (in a memey sort of way).
I really want to do the same, but instead of slips of paper on a stack of mountains, I want to draw them onto a bunch of blank-faced bicycle poker cards. Break out the poker deck for EDH night :P
In spite of whom? Who is harmed by this?
EDIT: Commented before watching video. I expected more from this channel.
@@fearphage aw somebody mad they aren't special for spending too much money on toys lol
Something I realized today:
Those blank cards they made for the Zendikar Rising flip cards make for solid proxy cards.
They do, i use them with high resolution printed proxies, you can even print them on stickers to just stick to them.
My take: Whatever's clever. It's a casual format. If someone is getting out the jeweler's loop and eyeballing everyone's cards, that's a sign of someone missing the point.
*loupe
@@NguyenTran-cx3uy thank you. That seemed weird spelled the way I spelled it.😅
There is another way to look at it: since it's a TCG, getting the cards is part of the game.
@@Volkbrecht Collecting copies of your favorite cards is fun.
My wallet versus your wallet is not fun.
@@alvisrouge8690 if you ever think it is wallet vs wallet then you have forgotten how to play magic. It seems that most people have. These expensive cards are no where near as necessary as people are suggesting all you need is creativity.
Normalize Proxies until Wizards starts meaningfully reprinting GAME PIECES!
Good proxies from China look and feel like the real thing; they are made with better card stock than Wizards uses (no weird color differences either and no bending). Nobody has been able to tell the difference so far and I can buy shocks and fetch lands at 1$ a piece or less. Lands should not cost 60$ or more each! I started doing this when Wizards announced the box set containing five fetch lands for 400$ and somehow still maintains they don't acknowledge a secondary market...
Johannes De Grote would you be so kind as to link one of these Chinese sites ?😅
@@chaisutton2153 Aliexpress has several good sellers - Villa Zheng shop has never disappointed me. Some of the best I've seen come from wcshop.mtg-proxies-cards.com/shop/ but these are a bit more expensive (avg $2.50) - you'd have to have a very good eye to notice the difference between these and real ones. As I mentioned, these sellers use better card stock than Wizards - theirs don't have the ugly differences in color (been noticing that a lot recently) and their foils have not shown any tendency to bend. Have fun shopping!
@@TheJohannes44 I absolutely agree with you. I've been doing it for years and have been able to put out 40 commander decks with duals/fetch. The great thing with proxies (having access to strong expensive cards) is that it makes it easier for you to build a deck to a specific power level. If you want, for exemple, to build a deck around a commander or strategy that's pretty weak, you can increase to power level of the deck by adding expensive ramp, lands, mana rocks. (mana crypt, dual lands, mana doublers etc...)
@@anthonystark5088 I generally stick to using only proxies for lands and keep the rest of the deck reasonably budget. I tend to also stay away from most staple cards (except things like Sol Ring). That's my style of playing to make sure I maintain that uniqueness to my decks rather than simply churn out the usual powerhouses. But to each their own of course.
I’m not paying more than I earn in a week for some printed paper. So yes, I proxy.
I've backed off my view on proxies but God I hate this stupid statement so much. Why is a Picasso art piece so expensive its just paint on paper. Why is a car expensive its just steel and fiber glass. Why is a house expensive its just brick and wood. Idc if you use proxies but saying its just a piece of paper honestly just makes you look like an idiot. And I apologize if thats too mean I just really hate that statement
William Carswell ...you know people buy and hang fake Picasso paintings all the time, right? You can buy them for less than a dual land.
@@philistineau why is it so expensive its just paper
William Carswell Your statement doesn’t strike me as mean. Rather, uninformed on how the state grants copyright and the value members of society should give to it. If historic cars are too expensive, people build replicas. You seem completely ignorant.
@@philistineau no I understand how market works I also understand that a real and original piece will always hold way more value than a cheap copy and making comments like its just card board is complete stupidity because its not just paper these are collected items for multiple reasons
I have a playgroup of ~30 players - we play D&D, TI4e, Gloomhaven. Last year I introduced EDH, we play now 100% proxies. I think we had 4 real decks at the beginning, now all new are proxies. The real decks are too expensive, we have a huge discount for printing and a new 100 cards + sleeves cost ~16€. The print quality is also really good, in sleeves you can't tell the difference, then again I have almost forgot how real MTG cards feel like :D
By any chance you're talking about MPC?$16 for 100 cards considering they're good enough is a really good deal.probably better deal than making your own.
@@Gogies777 Not sure, what is MPC? But things have changed during the year. The Commander decks were cheaper and we bought a bunch of them as well, mostly as gifts to one another :D
My play group is 100% proxy as well. It’s way more fun and there’s no pay to win aspect.
My cousin runs proxies of his dual lands because he doesnt want to put the real ones in a deck and risk losing them because theyre bloody expensive.
I do the same. I own a copy each of the duals and don't take them out of the house anymore.
Pricey 😬
Broooo someone yanked my full art lands and now I got trust issues
7:27 Mitch drew a comparison between me and fetchlands!
As of this posting, my lowest TCGPlayer market price is $3.31 for my Commander 2014 printing. I need a proper reprint, but if you need to proxy me, feel free
I will buy you
Cringe
@@derekwalter4238 your cringe
@@bradmacgregor8722 sorry, it's you're*. Also, I don't even remember making this comment. You're at least a year too late, my friend.
@@derekwalter4238 you can always tell somebody is a really cool person to be around when they start by correcting grammar
My response to "should proxies be allowed in commander?" is "I'm poor". That is all, good night.
that's fine, anyone that tries to shame you for trying to play a game with them without spending enough money is a gatekeeping cunt
Same. Im only 14, and play at school. I dont have a job, and dont get money, so i cant really get cards like my friends. They domt seem to understand proxies tho. I use proxies mostly as like one card in a deck, maybe a delver or something, but most of the time i proxy to try different decks so i now what i want when i get older. Ive tried a few different decks, such Pauler MBC and zombies, modern Mill, and some other stuff. But they always get angry at me if i bring in something that ive told them im going to try a new deck. Anyways, i will always proxy before i buy, so thats my rant. Goodnight
@@aeris2704 find better people to play with if you can. Everyone I've ever met that cared was uber fucking toxic and not fun to play with whether I won or lost. "Well of course you won you have proxies!!" "Omg soooo annoying I barely beat you I hate playing your decks!" Even after I invite people to also proxy if it bothers then, they rarely do and simply enjoy having a scapegoat to pin their losses and misplays on lmao
Good night folks!
@@aeris2704 - Never feel bad about using proxies, the only things to remember are to stay within your group's power level, and to put some pride/effort into them. Make sure they're readable, and include necessary rules text. I'm only ever annoyed when it's like, a black sharpie of an abbreviated card name written over the (mostly black) art on a swamp so it's impossible to read.
I think the stigma about proxies comes from that one spike we've all met with the all proxy deck that goes off on turn 3 and first made your playgroup have to start discussing power levels.
For me, as a collector, I take pride in my decks being 100% real and can't bring myself to proxy cards I don't own. That being said, as long as the proxies actually look like the real cards and are at par with the power level of the playgroup I have no problem with people's use of proxies.
Same. Im not sure why people love proxies. I truly enjoy having a real collection of cards that can be sold further down the line if anything happens. And wheres the pride ? I wouldn't feel right using a deck with more than 20 fake cards.
@@YORELEYNAK Because for most of us it's a card game meant to be played. I feel proud to have a big collection of fun commander decks with non-proxies and high end chinese proxies. When my friends come to play magic, they can pick a different deck all the time instead of having to pick from 2 made out of non-proxies.
Be honest about proxies, especially if the deck is powerful. Also put some effort into them lol
Agreed. Sometimes it's literally impossible to tell if something is happening because of low quality monochrome proxies.
I enjoy the custom art thats been made for a lot of cards. So thats a good way to put in effort while not making it look like the real thing.
@@XCodes but I cant stand staring at a piece of paper with bad hand writing stuck on a basic land
especially if there is more than one of them on the table
Trust me my decks are anything but powerful all but two are synergistic jank art decks and I proxy.
Depends, I play in a casual group. If someone tries to proxy, Imperial Seal, Cradle, and high level stuff then not for my group.
I agree with you, but I think then your issue isn't with proxies but rather with someone bringing cedh cards into your casual group
While I understand and respect your perspective -- Imperial Seal is weaker than Vampiric Tutor despite costing 6x as much (it's a Sorcery, so you can't hold up mana for it). Not sure if that makes any difference to you or not, just thought I'd point it out. And also what the other guy said about the problem being people, not proxies.
I'm of the "own 1 copy and proxy it elsewhere" mind. Anything above $15, if it's in multiple decks, all subsequent copies will be proxied.
My Ur Dragon deck runs a proxy of each Fetch and Mirari's Wake, the real ones being scattered among 8 or so other decks. I have 3 proxy Rhystic Studies while my Niv Mizzet deck holds the real deal
Me too man, seems crazy to buy 5 copies of the same 10$ card...
You can actually proxy-down in some playgroups. If a deck you own is too strong for a playgroup you can proxy out some of your cards into weaker versions (e.g mana drain - negate) to make it more fun for everyone. Saves you buying cards that you already own better alternatives of!!
How do you own a hundred something dollar counter spell but a negate is out of the question? Lol
@@derekwalter4238 because most of the money went into the other expensive cards and 25 cent printer paper with ink
I’m fine with proxies. I generally only use proxies for cards I would reasonably buy, so cards like mana crypt I wouldn’t proxy yet cards I’m testing for a deck I might just proxy.
Plus, current events can make certain cards harder to get, so proxies are even more ok.
I do the exact same. I usually only proxy cards I want to eventually get but can't afford to drop $70 on a borderless Avacyn yet, or can't find a Parallel Lives anywhere. I also usually proxy most of a new deck to test it out before I commit to the cards in it.
AttackOfTheDodo I have a borderless avacyn sitting in my binder lol.
@@jonklaus1466 she's so damn beautiful. I kinda love her double masters premium promo borderless masterpiece premium promo thing stuff artwork but unfortunatly she's a bit out of my price range and I already have a judge reward promo avacyn (got her when she was kinda cheap, somewhere around 40$).
I’m cool with proxies as a rule, with my playgroup we really like owning the cards so it makes it easier when no one wants to proxy cards they can afford. Most of our decks are proxy-less cause it helps us set the power level, we’re also looking at making a couple of proxy-heavy cEDH decks to have a go at that.
I am a big fan of proxies, particularly if you use alternate art ones
Yes! Alternate art rules!
Our group's solution for proxies has become "if you own one, you own enough for every deck," so we each have a binder in which we keep the staples that would be too pricey to buy for every deck we wanna build, and we proxy them out in the decks themselves. Its made the game surprisingly affordable for a lot of us that otherwise would be locked out by prohibitive pricing, and has allowed us to build lot of really fun decks that otherwise never would have happened.
Grand solution.
Why do you need one in the binder?
@@ThomasBomb45 Totally honest? None of us would say a word if someone just wanted to play a card and proxy'd one up. Keeping our fun-of binders is just a good way for us to still feed our lgs some money and build our own value piles.
Times are also hard right now so people may not have the money from their jobs to afford such cards.
Proxies can save money and also prevent your original cards from being stolen.
At the end of the day, all we're doing is printing cheap paper, cheaply sleeving it, and whipping up imaginary artificial prices. Then we play with it.
Simply put, just ask your group if proxies are okay. If not, then only proxy the expensive cards that you own so you can keep them safe in display.
P.s. If you're going to proxy an insanely powerful card like Black Lotus or Gaea's Cradle, make sure to distribute extra copies to your group so everyone can be on the same power level.
P.s.s. Please make a halfway decent printed copy of a proxy so it can be recognized by its artwork and printed text. Don't forget to print a "proxy" watermark or something else to set your fake card aside from a real card.
Hey! Just wanted to say I enjoyed Eric on the show and hopefully he'll be back on! Dig the content as always, Mitch!
It's so refreshing to hear this conversation being had. I run a surgeon commander mutate deck with all real fetches and all real shocks, and after talking with my playgroup, we established that proxies are great for the fact that were able to to play more exciting games with them. I was thinking about using proxies for the alpha duals, but after hearing this perspective I'm thinking that I may not really need to do that
Yes. It allows players to play test and avoid incurring damage on some their more expesive cards
I allow proxies if you are testing or you own the card
My playgroups do a lot of proxying. We’ve found it to be a very useful tool for leveling the playing field, so there’s never really a spike or an underdog at our tables unless they’ve chosen to be in one of those roles.
I always play with what I have. The decks become "samey" when all the powerhouse cards are being used. Using what I have challenges me to play with my knowledge, and working around, rather than just printing and playing.
You could always print something interesting, though. What you have will also be samey, due to your limited card pool.
I've used proxies for years in Commander, but I've always owned at least one copy of each cards I proxied, but now it has been 4 years, and now I'm starting to agree with you. Many of my decks has become very same-y, even if the themes are totally different. So lately I've unproxied most of my decks or found alternatives to certain cards. I like your "work with what you got philosophy", but it did take a while to get there :p
In my opinion, having the same lands and same staples in a deck doesnt make it samey! Its the strategy and game plan of the deck that gives it personality. If you push yourself outside of your comfort zone and build decks you wouldnt normally go for, or try and make a weak strategy strong, you may find yourself getting those creative juices pumping! Like if I have sol ring mana crypt jeweled lotus dockside in every deck, those are just support pieces - they dont give any soul to the deck. Its the spells that are on theme with the deck that give it personality. If you find your decks feel samey maybe its not the proxies but how youre building your decks? if anything proxying should increase diversity vastly! Now you have access to every single card in the history of magic without any barriers due to cost or availability!
I see a lot of comments implying that proxying is only done for expensive cards (like $50+). Keep in mind that for some people even spending $100 on a deck is pushing the budget. At the end of the day, it doesn't change the gameplay.
If you're worried about someone proxying strong cards like dual lands, then just ban the dual lands from your circle. By banning proxies all you do is ensure that most people can't play with dual lands, there is nothing stopping someone from dropping $5k and playing with those busted cards.
Proxying makes the game more affordable and gives players more options. There is literally no downside and I heavily suspect the only reason people get so upset over proxies is because it makes them feel stupid for spending thousands of dollars on cardboard.
Damn straight, proxy all cards. It's paper, for crying out loud. And it supposedly doesn't have a market value anyway. :D
This, absolutely and utterly this.
Hell I proxy Sol Ring and lands just because I want to change the art
Also a side note. We host many EDH tournaments at our LGS and we allow gold borders.
proxies are great and all but I LOVE seeing altered art cards that people make they are almost always amazing and sometimes better than the original art
I don't know about better, but still amazing.
@@archanamanoharan9535 you're right. Sometimes better*
@@sapodrasky Yeah
I love these but im pretty sure this video is talking about directly putting a piece of paper over a card and calling it something else
I like when you bring your playgroup on videos, is always interesting to get other opinions on aspects of mtg, love the work n keep it up :)
My rules for proxies:
Must be clearly conveyed that they are proxies.
Must be a decent quality proxy where you can understand what the card does (no sharpie D-Tutor on a swamp).
No proxying purely to outpower your normal playgroup (adding power 9 just to edge people out)
You are not allowed to criticize people for having proxies. Negging players who are playing within a budget means my new priority is to ensure you lose every single game.
No inappropriate content (anime bikini versions of characters, actual nudity, sexual acts) on the proxies.
I just had to comment (jokingly) - because some of my decks run custom basic lands with Anime girls :P (of which some are in bikini or similar - I mean....Islands kinda ask for it...)
Magic is a game rated for 13+....so imho I should be allowed to run PG-13 rated content proxies - haha
@@arthesian
For real, dude. Magic has gotten so bitch-made lately. Used to be titties everywhere and beefcake, masculine dudes all over the place. Now we have Oko...
My play group has a rule about proxies, "if the proxy looks good, and it's not just a piece of paper with writing on it on top of another card, its allowed"
If it's a near perfect dupe it should also not be allowed.
@@Syne111 My playgroup, our rules
The real question is what does it matter if the card was printed at some factory WoTC owns and you bought it for an astronomical price or if you bought a remake/altered art or whatever of the card? The end of the story should be: is the deck you are playing balanced versus other decks at the table? I don't need to tell someone how much I paid for my duals/fetches/mythic rares from long lost sets. All they need to know is how much mana I paid to cast the card and what the card does. If the power level I'm playing is on par with the table then it matters none. To the atogatog reference...if someone is playing a 5 color deck and running proxy original duals...go for it. A mana base that lets you actually play the game versus be behind a turn every turn should be quite ok.
Fun > winning ( ;
That seems like something your playgroup can decide together. I think proxies are a great way to add variance to your playgroup. Especially if you've ever considered creating a commander cube specifically tailored to your groups playstyles.
Thanks guys. Great video and fair insight into proxies. It'll certainly help my pod 😊
I think I would be equally salty about someone using an overpowered card if it wasn't agreed beforehand whether or not it was a proxy
Yeah, people always misattribute non-matching power levels to be the fault of proxies. Like, no, if I build the deck for real and _then_ pub-stomp at an inappropriate table it's not suddenly ok.
Proxies, at worst, make people forget their table's general power level. But the arms race is not the fault of the proxies themselves, only of a lack of group communication.
I proxy cards I own between decks and my playgroup allows 3 proxies that you dont own to spice things up
Good to see a magic CZcamsr supporting a cause close to their heart.
My one real requirement on people playing proxies is that it needs to have the text on it. There are magic sets I didn't play and there are too many cards to memorize. So print what it does.
There are official textless cards, your "point" sucks.
In my friends group, we all agree with the use of proxies, but with a ceiling of budget, this is also a method to kinda control our power level ^-^!
Very sensible and clever choice.
Exactly. Ours too. You can proxy at our power level all you want but you can't use proxy-ing as a way to increase your power level.
Those Gold border cards are definitely picking up some traction. I recently traded a gold bordered Grim Monolith for some great cards ...best thing is that if you do have those gold bordered championship decks you definitely have multiple copies of those cards...
Absolutely love your views on proxy cards, much love for putting this video out!!
You guys manage your commander decks exactly like I do. I have just 1 Rhystic study and just 1 smothering tithe. There are 2-3 proxies of each of them floating around my other decks. I always have a real copy on me at anytime.
Yes ander certain circumstances.
1, make sure they're decent printed proxies. No sharie over plains.
2, be honest that you use them, and don't complain if people do care that you have them.
3, match the powerlevel of your group, and don't make a bullshit tier 1 deck
Yeah, my playgroup rule was "proxies are allowed within reason and as long as they look like cards." We usually made them ourselves, and it was generally only for cards that were hundreds of dollars but going into a deck we just wanted to test, or for Cube, my playgroup leader proxied his expensive stuff like Library of Alexandria, but had them in his binder to show if anyone asked.
Huh I'm early, usually I'm as slow as Wayfarer Bauble being reprinted
Me too, honestly.
My buddies and I love to play cEDH, one of our group gets photo paper and a printer and has fully proxied several decks that we all take turns playing. He consistently makes new ones too and its definitely some of the best times we've had.
Am I missing something???
CEDH is a competitive form of EDH/Commander, so you’re playing EDH/Commander in your play group?
@@mordrunkenblade yes
How do you feel about proxies when there is prize support? I know you say you don't, but some stores around me will sometimes run Commander for FNM.
Yes. I want to play opponents who play what they want, without financial restrictions.
Some cards are just way too expensive. Casual weeds out ‘unfun’ stuff, including unfun proxies.
cEDH is just expensive and shouldn’t be elitist imo
cEDH shouldn't even be a thing, for starters.
When you take something that's supposed to be the apex of casual, and turn into a competitive thing, no good can result.
Sure, but at the same time, I don't want to play someone that has 100 islands with marker writing on them all. I play the game based on visual recognition, I don't want to have to pick up and read every card you play to know what it is.
@@RaginKavu it exists because one:people want to see how itd.turn out and 2:its a very different kind of play to casualy edh, in casual you get crazy board states and big things, in competitive you get insane stack interactions and combos and other things. Theres also a well defined meta in cedh which can be actually attractive to some people
Competitive edh players dont want to pod up.with someone whos playing satyr tribal or something, they just want to be against cedh and if they arent chances are they have a far more casual deck on them to play casual. Chances are thats how they got into cedh, they played casual, heard about cedh checked it out and liked it.
If they didnt care about who they podded up against then itd be horrible, but they do care, so its really not a problem imho.
@@RaginKavu Honestly, don't think about cEDH as being competitive by exact definition. Look at it as just the strongest cards in the format put together. No matter what anyone says or does, there will always be a strongest stuff in a format. CEDH players don't want these strongest things ruining the fun for more casual players.
RaginKavu I really enjoy playing all different kinds of powerlevel te see the different interactions it brings. cEDH is a lot of fun to loads of people, just don’t play it in a casual setting
The advantage of cEDH is that there’s no discussion about powerlevel or goals of the game
Proxies are fine by me. I feel like everyone should have that one deck that defines them with no proxies in it, shows how much that deck means to you. But otherwise, have at!!
My favorite deck has a few gold borders, but no proxies. I also do play in colorless, so all of my good mana rocks are prohibitively expensive
As a collector and being 100% honest...you should most definitely use proxies. I've spent thousands on mtg it's something I like but if I'm being honest it isn't worth it. You will lose money in this game but the lgs's will make more off you. Your cards will not sell for what you bought them for even being in perfect condition. People will always try to low ball you. Learn from me and Rudy it isn't worth it if it were all magic player would be rich but just look at your play group and you'll have your answer.
Hello Mitch. How do you consistently come up with new and fresh ideas for videos on a weekly, or even biweekly basis?
They're game pieces. As long as the game is being played and people are having fun, then yes it should be allowed.
i want to face the player and their deck building skills, not their wallet.
What my group does is we allow you to make proxies of cards you already have. For example, I run Aurelia, the Warleader in several decks. But I don't have the budget to buy an individual card for each deck, so I make an index card version (with a real card behind so it isn't a different thickness) for each deck, then I keep the real cards separate, so I can sub them in when played. It works well, and it keeps my budget down. My playgroup does not let you make proxies of cards you don't own, so we can keep the decks more balanced, since all of us are broke
I'm all for proxies, my play group runs a lot of proxies in different decks, I think the only issue with proxies is it unintentionally bumps power level up. Not that high power is bad, its just something to be aware of and make sure your play group likes the power level
Fight my deck, not my wallet...
I alongside a few players at my lgs adopted the "one copy rule". That is, you own one so you can proxy it. As long as the proxy is clear and easy to read same as a real card we don't care. This helps avoid scum proxying things that are expensive af (in the vein of Tabernacle and Cradle) just to pubstomp without forcing people to get extra copies.
Same!!! I think this is the strongest reason to proxy cards :)!
My playgroup has a rule where if you already own the card you can make a proxy
What's the logic behind that rule then? If I own one Scalding Tarn, I'm allowed to proxy it 59 times but if I don't own any, I can't proxy it 60 times? Would saying I own an actual copy of it without proving it be enough? Would that make a difference? What if all my proxies are 99% the same as the real thing?
@@TheJohannes44 That's just how my LGS looks at proxies, you don't have to throw a fit about it, if you don't like it, don't play that way
@@TheJohannes44 The logic is that, as one person, you can only play one deck at a time. Thus, you never really *need* to own more than one copy of a card ever. However, you also want to have multiple decks to play, for various reasons. Instead of constantly remembering to exchange cards between decks - good luck remembering after a while where the actual card is - using a proxy in its place allows you to pick up whatever deck you want to play and go for it. So, you're still just playing with the "cards you own," but adjusting it so that the play experience is better for all at the table.
@@felixmortem1177 I'm genuinely curious what the rationale behind that rule would be. I agree - to each their own way of playing.
@@ralphpetagna3778 Effectively, what is the difference between playing against someone who proxies a card they own but is in a different deck and playing against someone who proxies a card they don't own. In both cases, I'm playing against someone who uses a proxy. What if I tell you I have one in a deck at home - would that be acceptable as well?
13:08 Oh that sent a chill down my spine thinking of that.
“I spent so much money on this card and you playing with a proxy devalues that” - Noone
“No fuck you im not spending that much on a piece of cardboard.” -Everyone
Yes. I am currently trying to find a good way to proxy. any suggestions?
doge boi - Blank white cards, some sleeves, and an art set!
doge boi or you can find people selling them, but that feels kind of dirty. (Though I did buy a few custom proxies because the artist was crazy talented)
Make playing cards. They allow you to purchase your own playing cards. Reddit is a good place to find ways to get quality.
ok cool. i found some videos on how to proxy but thanks for the help. :)
I just buy them from Etsy. This kinda defeats the purpose of saving money unless buying proxies of expensive cards like fetches and reserved list carda
The best compromise I've come across for a regular playgroup is that each player can proxy any card another player owns (and plays).
My group allows proxies you own, we also cap it at five proxies per deck. We also allow judge gold borders. Unless you are play testing or have them on order or going to buy fairly soon.
And today I had the idea of making a proxy of lukka, coppercoat outcast as me, to include on my jhoira deck
As a cEDH player, I endorse proxies 1000%. CEDH players want to play with other cEDH players. As far as pub stompers, there’s just a special place in hell for these people. (C)EDH is about having fun, not winning a tournament.
Oh, another cEDH player! What deck do you typically use? I'm an Azami player. (I don't win a lot.)
In my group we allow proxies for
a) cards in the reserve list
b) cards over 20$
c) standard cards over 5$ (so we can wait to see if the cards price go down after rotation)
d) mana fixing lands
But we have a list of cards we had to ban to keep the meta casual
When will the next close quarters be? I personally really enjoyed the first one and have been constantly checking for the next one
Mostly play Commander with my neighbors, we have no problem with proxies, especially if you already have the card in your collection. I have a harder time when you go to a shop to play, out side of testing new cards or cards you're debating buying. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the video. Definitely been enjoying your content since you hit the CZcamss.
Depends lol
Some cards are just so expensive, and proxy's let people play with cards they couldn't normally afford.
sometimes the prices are just caused by it not getting the reprints they need.
Money shouldn't be a barrier of entry to fun.
If I'm playing CEDH yes I need Bayou to have fun at the table. The point is proxy at the power level of your playgroup. My group is primarily CEDH, but most of us proxy dual lands.
@@ceulgai2817 my playgroup plays primarily CEDH and it is lots of fun
Howdy! I figure you're working hard all the time Mitch- but is there another episode of close quarters in the works? Idm when it comes out because that takes time but I'm interested to know if we'll be seeing another
In my group we started with busget commander that all could aford to buy. But then they wanted to upgrade with proxies. The thing is that with proxies they unbalanced their decks forcing all to proxy as well and not all wanted to set cards that actually buyed aside so they can include "free cards".
My playgroup and I use proxies. IMO, a proxy should always be easily identified as a proxy (alternate art/border/set symbol etc).
yes. my issue with commander is that the only restrictions on the damn format are if your friends continue to agree to a certain playstyle and power level. But really, unless you've got a close regular group that doesn't happen. It's usually an amalgamation of your friends at the store with varying levels of interest, investment, and philosophies about the commander. I've had games where I've played a pickup game with a precon into someone playing a 1000 dollar Jodah deck. yeah that wasn't fun. But in reality I have no interest in devoting more effort towards commander either financially or in terms of trying to get the group to be regular and then adhere to the social contract. I spend enough time money and effort on constructed formats. So for me, I simply would prefer proxies to be allowed it removes the barrier of power level so people can play at or match whatever power level shows up. If someone is going to be upset by this fact because they're willing to bling out a deck- that's on them and for them. I would say though, if you're proxying you need to print out the card itself so that I can very clearly read the text of the card, see the artwork, and not have to rely on making you chicken scratch and then scryfalling the card to make sure I understand the text.
to be completely honest given the casual nature of commander, I'd rather just buy good looking fakes for any card over $1 dollar. Because again, its casual, there's not really any "rules" to how its played. And at the end of the day it doesn't matter at all if its just in the spirit of having fun with friends. CEDH is....beyond me I have no comment.
Yeah, if people are playing for money, then they can set rules. But when it's casual, proxies are not just ok, they are good. Plus, you can use cool alternate arts. :D
@@shorewall I see it exactly the other way round. Proxies are bad for casual play. Nobody proxies duds, so all proxies do is raise the competitiveness of the group, I much rather have it the other way round: have the group agreeing to not use the cards that would need to come from the printer, and the game will be much more tolerant to casual playstyles.
Because what usually are the cards that get proxied? It's mostly expensive lands and fast mana. Keept these out, everything takes a few turns longer, no harm done.
Volkbrecht until that one guy buys those expensive cards. So now you’re stuck trying to explain to someone that now you don’t want him to use a 100+ dollar card because it will start an arms race.
@@Leftside08 True, but it's not like there is a perfect alternative. On the other end of this discussion I'm sitting there being salty because I put a lot of time into making decks that work somewhat decently without all those costly cards, and then I get outpaced and outvalued by bad proxies from guys who never bother to complete the decks they just wanted to "try".
Disclaimer: I mostly play EDH at an LGS, so while the crowd is somewhat steady, the playgroups aren't. So to keep everyone happy, it's generally better to stick to the rules instead of hoping for understanding. The long time players with the expensive collections are usually understanding enough to adapt either their deck choice or their playstyle to the group they are playing with.
A lot more people in my playgroup are getting into playing CEDH but most of us can't afford it, but we all want to play at that power level. We allow proxies because you should be able to play high power games without going broke. To avoid paper we get etsy or proxyking proxies so at least they look nice.
The most significant accomplishment of Wizards of the Coast in the last 20+ years has been to convince people that they actually need the original cards to play Magic the Gathering.
Which is weird because I think WotC is fine with proxies outside of tournaments
If wizards isn’t going to print the cards then why shouldn’t you! I’m 100% in favor of making a proxy for any card but especially if it’s on the reserved list!
Yes, deck building and play skill (and maybe a bit of luck) should be the only factors in who wins, not how much money they paid
I agree with you, idc if someone didn't pay $500 for a gaea's cradle, I never would lol
If you think money is any real factor in determining who wins then you might need to relearn how to play.
But wouldn't that be a group discussion within a playgroup to determine the power level of decks as opposed to gatekeeping the player that has money to spend?
Derek Fullum Some cards are just more powerful than others and will increase your chances to win. I don’t care how good of a pilot or deck builder you are, if someone shows up with a fetch/dual mana base and fast mana rocks, they have a huge edge. And if they’ve got the deck to back it up, it doesn’t matter what you do if your deck isn’t fast enough.
@@ianoneill8392 and you think that the only way to get fast mana is from these expensive cards?
If everyones at the table is cool with it
We follow a few rules; you can prove that you own the card, or the price of the card is over 100, or the card is reserve list or the card is unavailable for some reason (incredibly popular amd nobody has stock).
I currently have a Liliana planeswalker facing backwards in a sleeve to represent a dark ritual only because I don’t feel like going through one of my big boxes of commons to pull one.
#Sometimes
In a casual format, the only argument against proxies is: "If you're not wealthy enough to purchase the actual cards, you shouldn't be allowed to play them." If that's what you believe, well, ok, but yours is a view that discriminates against people who don't have the disposable income to spend hundreds/thousands of dollars on a piece of cardboard.
If you're in a pod and someone is playing a deck that's proxying a lot of high-power, expensive cards, the only case where that should be a problem is if the power level of the deck is too high for the pod, meaning that it's a power-level problem, not a proxying problem.
I've recently started "checklisting" (i.e., creating proxies of cards I actually own at least one copy of) so that I can have multiple decks sleeved up and ready to go, and it's been a game-changer (literally). I like having a variety of decks at the ready to make it easy to change things up, but because I mostly play golgari there is a lot of overlap in terms of BG commander staples. Checklisting cards saves me the trouble of having to search for a card in one deck to put it in another. It is, essentially, short-cutting that process.
The argument against proxies is variety. Commander is so great because of variety. Who wants to play against decks that have 25 percent of the same cards as everyone else at the table? Mana Crypt, dual lands, fetch lands... Commander's Quarters proves that you don't need those cards to make gameplay fun or effective. Play with what you got and you'll be forced to get more creative.
@@chrismitchell4665 "Who wants to play against decks that have 25 percent of the same cards as everyone else at the table?"
Me, if it means the games aren't utterly trivial, like they will be against most players who have a random pile of cards vs. my Klothys infinite-mana deck that ends games on turn 5-6. This probably applies to most players with high-power decks as well. Curbstomping people is boring for me and miserable for everyone else.
The cards you use matter a lot less than how you use them. For example, you can do a huge variety of things with the infinite untap effect of Kiki-Jiki + Great Oak Guardian, because there's a lot of different things that you can do by tapping creatures. I use it to generate infinite mana with dorks to kill the whole table with a Squall Line/Hurricane, kill everything on the board with a Harbinger of the Hunt, or use Hellkite Tyrant + Radha, Heart of Keld for infinite combats with an infinite power creature, but *in general* being able to copy cards at instant speed like Kiki-Jiki is a pretty cool effect. The same two-card combo could also infinite with Warstorm Surge/Impact Tremors to do infinite damage to all opponents. Heck, the game could have only 500 different cards (100 per color) and it would probably still be pretty interesting. So to me it sounds like you're talking less about variety and more about novelty, which is a much shallower concept, unfortunately.
@@Art_Izon dude, if you get off on infinite combos, that's all you. Do you're thing.
@@Art_Izon I thought you would want to take power level into consideration. Would you rather curb-stomp people or play an interesting deck on their power-level?
We agreed in our pod if it's expensive cards you have. It just shortcuts the "hang on while I move these cards from one deck to another". I run 2 proxies in a total of 12 edh decks. Proxies are kozilek and ulamog. I have them ...bought when they were 30 to 40$. Now they are 70-80$....
Ive been thinking about proxying some upgrades to the deck, but having the card underneath be functional, just not the upgrade so if i gotta tone down the power level of the proxies i can just pop em out
Proxies totally cool to Try, place-holders, test. My only requirement is on the back of the card sharpied proxy on the back (alternatively a customized art card) to not fool anyone.
Any official event with prize support should be clearly listed as proxy or non-proxy. At least in my LGS, people pay money to play in pods, and there is definitely feel-bads when someone doesn't adhere to the play level of pod because of power proxies.
That doesn’t really sound like a problem with proxies though. People can pubstomp with or without proxies and the cards being real doesn’t make it any less of a pubstomp.
@@ianoneill8392 That's very true, but it's a larger feel bad when someone proxies more powerful cards. If you're a player who doesn't use proxies, and you lose because he's looping timetwister, it's definitely more a feel bad.
Frank Thomas I guess that’s just a personal thing. I personally don’t think that spending the equivalent of a large car down payment on your deck means that pubstomping is any more fair than if you didn’t.
What I do is I proxy by printing a version of the card and glueing over a normal card then I mark it with a highlighter pen to indicate that its fake.
@@frankthomas2410 If it's a money tourney, then yeah, I don't like proxies either. It's feel bad, even though the price of cards is outrageous. But when it comes to casual play, I say only proxy. I want full alternate art cards made to my specifications. :D
Yes
There's different levels of proxy too. Online there's proxy makers that make really high quality foil full arts for like 10 bucks. You can write on a paper the card, print out the image of it in B/W, print it in color, buy a pro proxy depending on your budget
With Magicfest 30 right around the corner and a bigger emphasis on EDH, I'm curious as to what your opinions are on proxies now. How do you feel not only in general about them, but also proxies being played in a setting like a Magicfest. I'd also like to see if WOtC's efforts (small as they may seem) to reprint older cards with all the Master and Commander sets changes your minds at all.