The Proxy Problem... | Are Proxied Cards Ruining Magic: The Gathering!? | MTG EDH CEDH Commander
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- čas přidán 27. 06. 2020
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There seems to be some confusion with the video, so to clarify: *Proxies* are stand-ins for the actual printed Card, publicly known by your player base; while *Counterfeits* are Cards with the intent to deceive or defraud (made to appear authentic or gain monetary from). This video’s sole intent was to discuss the use of Proxies in a CEDH (Competitive Elder Dragon Highlander) setting, to keep everyone on a level playing field and the philosophies surrounding the use of Proxies in Commander. I do understand the topic is divisive, but let’s keep that nerd rage curbed when holding conversations with one another. 👌 Be well and Happy Brewing, babies.
Was he saying FedEx deck?
Suggesting “color printed” Cards, yes.
Every Proxy is a potential counterfeit. So I don‘t like them
Not sure I agree with the "if tournaments allowed proxies, no one would buy the cards" argument. The vast majority of players do not play at tournaments. EDH, the most popular format, is not really played in tournaments either.
People like having the real thing, cracking packs, drafting sets etc.
@@petramaier9153 EDH is the most popular because all it costs to play is some paper and ink for your printer. There is no integrity to EDH when the community so readily accepts fake cards and in fact endorses their use over authentic cards
Proxies didn't ruin the game, WOTC ruined the game by continuously increasing the price point and refusing needed reprints.
It just happens with demand and limited run along with power creep.
Exactly. If proxies become a problem, it's all WOTC fault. They are good at making a great game, but terrible at taking good decisions for the health of their game.
@@justinstreeter5068 you forgot the word arbitrary in your statement the purposely print high power at high rarity to sell products. They could give us a reprint set every year but why do that wen you can sprinkle in high demand reprints im all your products sky rocketing sale across the board
F... the reserve list. Its game
No, proxies do not ruin the game in any way. People who WHINE about proxies are the problem.
I'm okay with proxies. But I prefer good quality proxies to be used, I want to stay immersed in the game.
It is a card game, wtf do you mean immersed?
@@Wesquire someone could make a crappy drawn on proxy that is ugly to look at.
@@Wesquire if someone plays a card written on a sticky note it breaks the feeling/ aesthetic of the game. Hence breaking the immersion of being in the game smh.
@@skimpos better than playing with the countless people using cringe anime playmats
I think there is a good way to use proxies for new decks and also upgrading existing decks which also fits with keeping the look and feel of the game. Just limit the proxies to e.g. 10, so you can proxie the 10 most expensive cards, cutting the coast by a lot. Saving you easily 1/2 or even more. Or proxie 10 new cards you want to try out. Make the proxies look halfway proper, like you said. Game feels like normal, but costs a lot less.
I was a correctional officer for a few years in my early twenties, walked up to two inmates (convicts are old prisoners, inmates are young prisoners. Valuable info for how to refer to guys locked up. They will correct you.) this was around 2005. They were playing a game with colored index cards they purchased from commissary. The movements looked familiar. I asked and they said it was magic the gathering. I looked down closer and I’ll be damned if it wasn’t magic. No art, no flavor text. Just index cards with abilities. The only flair was they got creative drawing the mana symbols. Well, some did... mostly it was just 2b with a basic tap sign. Card name, casting cost, ability. Bare bones magic. No thought to value. I used proxies for valuable cards I owned, written on revised lands. For these guys it wasn’t about value. It was pure love of the game. The only thing they had was those index cards and a publication that listed existing cards and abilities. They played for fun. I’m okay with proxy. I get it. That made up my mind. You can copy a 20000$ deck, but can you master it?
I really like this story, thanks for sharing.
This story really shows if there's a will there's a way
"it wasn't about value" lol they were in prison
that's a freekin awesome story!
oh my god i would have sat with them and asked my supervisor if i could show them examples of more up to date cards, or asked if they could access internet time to have a look at EDHREC or read up on modern decklists. i would love to play like that with prisoners in spare time to help give them something fun to do
Proxies are a "problem" created by WotC themselves. People want to PLAY the card game.
my thoughts exactly, if they didnt maipulate the secondary market prices (fetchlands) maybe there wouldnt be such a market for proxys. i am not paying $20 for crucible even if i could afford it
THANK YOU
I completly agree, but you have to understand that Magic is also a collectible. The fact there is rarity compels some people to chase after some specific cards. Some people invest in magic or has already. Is it a flawed system? Perhaps, but currently, investor / collectors are the biggest source income for wizard. Can you imagine the outrage if they reprinted everything to bulk rares? Not only LGS would lose thousands, but most collector would never buy a box ever again. Would the game be more accessible to the masses? Absolutly. Would it be in a better shape? I don't think so... If Wizard's wouldn't make as much profit, would they produce as many set each year? Would less set means less interest from the player base? I think so.
I believe the current system is the lesser of two evil, but I would argue that there is way to have chase cards for collectors/investors while having an healthy game for casual. I don't care if I can't afford a Sliver Queen to build a commander deck around, but I sure would like to be able to play an healthy mana base that doesn't come into play tapped adding 45 minutes to each game. I feel collector boxes are a step in the right direction to please collector and investor while keep the regular cards somewhat affordable (thought the sampling size is fairly short). Hopefully, Wizard's finds a way to print healthy lands at bulk rare, but I guess this would mess up Standard... Unless they do it in Commander Legends *fingers crossed*
@@clanechelon Good. Make them never buy a box again. It's a card game, not an economy. we shouldn't sell ourselves out to a select few who for some reason have some sort of pull in this equation
@@enersha $20 dollar cards are not really the issue at hand here. If you are unwilling to spend $20 dollars perhaps find another hobby. I get not being able to afford things I do but if you do not have $20 for crucible there are budget alternatives. $50 bucks or more I can understand but $20 for something is normal in a hobby.
My reasons on proxies
1. Testing a card(s) before investing
2. You own the card and dont want to ruin the actual copy
3. Playgroup accepts
4. Not in tournament play
5) No decks comprised of ALL proxies.
@@trackatlas6626 i don't see how that matters in casual play
@@lastofusclips5291 it doesn’t it’s just simply one of those weird things for ppl. A lot of things in life are “proxies.” Off brands of many things can be looked at as proxies. Life is a PROXY!!! Lol in all seriousness I personally don’t have an issue with proxies or an entire proxy deck as long as all the text is the same as the real card and nothing has been alerted text wise (abilities).
6) No basic land proxies
I make proxies for cards I own and dont wanna take out and I make multiple of the same card so I dont have to buy 4 of the same card for my edh decks, they look good and I love putting art that fit the effect, it's fun for me as interactive art project
I get how people are butthurt about proxies and I wish the game was afforadable enought for cedh to exist without proxies that said. it is so hard to get a cedh group and putting the insane price barrier on top of it makes the group impossible to form, or possible but the person who can afford the power nine massively ahead. Proxies are good and important for the format to grow. I totally agree with the effort part. Let me read the actual card, visual effect of the battle feild matters. I want to be able to see the rystic study because there is so much information to already process, obscuring your board behind crappy handwriting is an advantage. please just print the card out.
what about fancy art proxies from etsy for example? are those confusing to you or fine?
@@andyik9009 yeah that's fine. Everything I've seen of those altered art proxies is close enough to the original to contextualize what it represents. Especially compared to a sea of white paper with names on it
Yeah agreed, I personally don't like using proxies so I choose not to and am fortunate enough to have a big collection and an alright income to pull from for my hobby but that being said I also wan't to play the damn game and owning all the cards in the world wont help me do that unless I have people to play with. The cost of entry into cEDH is so intimidating that even people who can afford it might be hesitant to jump in as the cost of a deck is far from negligible. As long as the proxy isn't ugly and is easy to understand I don't care, I just want people to play with at the end of the day. I can make my own choices about what I do or don't do with my own deck but I don't want to waste my time gatekeeping and telling other people what to do with their own decks.
Other problem with not proxying cedh deck list is, that it gets stale building a new deck is a huge financial investment ive played against players who just have the 1 high powered deck you get tired of playing against urza stax over and over again
8 of the Power 9 are banned in EDH, nice try though.
I still dont get why people dont allow proxies/only allow proxies if you own the card. Like are you playing magic? if you are then shuffle up. I want to play against your deckbuilding skill and your ability to play the deck, not your wallet.
This point!!!
Because they arte new and probably have 1 or 2 decks with all real cards they just bought within a year and don't want to get pubstomped by someone who spent the same amount of money on the game as them. You could say they could use get proxies then but it creates this arms race cycle of basically fake cards which ends up being stupid. Been through it already. in my group if you own it it's fine. Anything else just downpower your deck and suck it up.
Your internet deckbuilding skills you mean because if you need a card you dont have To do a deck ils because you watched a deck online and want To copy it ... And proxy are stupid, you cant afford it ? You cant play it ... Want To drive a Ferrari but you re poor as fuck ? Go drive your kia ... Thats it ... If you re smart, with actual good deckbuilding skill, you can outplay a pimped out deck
oh no i mean if ur going to use proxies say it beforehand so that people don't freak out over ur volcanic island. Not telling anyone ur using proxies while using them is pretty much the same as making counterfeits and shouldn't be allowed
@@munchinkin here's the thing, this is competitive magic, ur not going against someone's wallet, coz if u are, the best magic player would be bill gates or something. and the idea of "copying a card from the internet" is just stupid tbh, like, oop the spike feeders played a mana crypt on the previous video, I cant play mana crypt now coz its copying them... ooh this guy played force of will, i cant play that now. like its not gonna work like that. and explain to me, how am i going to beat a fully optimized ukkima tainted pact list with my $50 Commander's quarters list? Magic is a game of skills and ability to problem-solve with the cards u have, not a way to flex ur money, coz if ur gonna do that, go get ur supremes and Js.
The more people that embrace proxies the more prices will go down.
I'm curious, who else believes this? That if sales aren't occurring due to proxies being played that Sellers will be forced to provide cards at a depreciated rate? (Just curious)
@@LocalGameGroup I mean yeah, in the most extreme version proxies are essentially a protest of expensive card prices, and if business is significantly enough affected they'll have no choice but to adapt (retailers and WotC).
@@LocalGameGroup it's supply and demand. The "MTG investors" will try to hold value on some cards, but I've seen people actually sell their entire collection and move to only proxies due to economical issues.
@@LocalGameGroup I believe this. It's simple supply and demand. Deamnd will go down, and thus prices will have to go down.
The only problem with this is that for the most part, any new card wizards prints outside of today's flavor of masterpiece printed in standard priced sets rarely goes over 50, anywhere 1-3 cards a set, and sometimes not even that so the secondary market/final consumers find it worth it to get the cards over proxying. And that reprints are held back from standard *PRICED* sets to "preserve the limited environment"
Personal opinion: reprint sets should focus on the reprint value to lower card prices with some level of balance if people want limited. Not limited focused with the ability to throw in a few jackpot cards they couldn't print into standard, or you know, preserve that limited mentality that sells maybe 10% of your packs and make them regularly priced packs, but with how successful collectors boxes are, I never expect that to happen.
I'd be willing to spend 10-15$ a pack if I knew I had a 50% chance to make that value back from that pack instead of going negative 9 times over and counteracting it with a mana crypt. And for the sake of the damn game wot-c, reprint the fetchlands in regular price/printrun sets you cowards.
I haven't heard a single argument against proxies that doesn't amount to "I own rare/expensive cards that others don't and I don't want to give up that advantage." Which, fine, it's a TCG and you've accrued a large collection, but you're not going to get better at the game if you're only ever playing from an advantageous position. Maybe that's not a problem for you, but I would encourage you to leave your (relatively) smaller pond and come swim in the big ocean with the sharks who don't give a shit about when you started collecting/how much money you have etc and just want a good match at the highest levels of competition.
Without proxies the game quickly devolves into I'm rich so I win
yess. Just started playing, even spend money on displays (which I'll open after lockdown for a draft) and I think I should print proxies
@@real_drainer This is only true with Spikes. I've been playing since '95 (off and on). I have a very large collection with many expensive cards (not much from the RL though). But I build decks based on themes or a pet card, not solely for power. The only time the game devolves into "I'm *blank*, so I win" is when a Spike comes through and insists their deck is a 7 and that they have the right to play any card they wish (regardless of whether they actually own it or not) and proceed to curb stomp everyone because their deck is actually a 9 or 10, but they don't realize that because they've never played a deck WITHOUT power, because they just always proxied the power they needed to win. That "level the playing field" argument goes both ways. If rich players playing with real cards can win just because of their wallet, what about the proxy player that plays power against another non-rich player that chooses not to proxy. Now the PROXY PLAYER is always winning, but not because their wallet (AND not because of skill), but simply because they are using power they don't actually own.
And a proxy player isn't going to get better (at playing OR deckbuilding) by just playing power against someone would doesn't. Most proxy players I go against, I have a much bigger and more expensive collection than them (like the douche I played last week who's deck was 100-percent proxied and he bragged about his $700 collection at the same time), but I don't win all the time, because when I say I'm playing a 6, it's actually a 6. Most proxy players don't even know what a deck that's less than a 9 even looks like.
Crédit card game
When proxies aren't allowed, high-quality counterfeits will take its place.
What is the difference? Either I own the card or I do not.
@@joelnunderwood9708 Counterfeits have higher quality than the original
It’s an undeniable market force.
@@RorschachqpI'm honestly surprised that high enough quality counterfeits haven't dented reserved list prices yet
@@zsmith8632 because the people driving the prices of these cards don't play with them. Fake reserve list cards were never going to effect prices of the real ones.
If your just getting into the game or you weren’t even born when the game was released then proxy are an excellent way to play the game you love. If you really get into into and you want to invest then you can save up for the more expensive cards but investors have driven these prices up beyond reasonable prices. I was lucky enough to be around for the Alpha set but have cashed out and bought back in since then but not everybody can say that. It’s a game and I want everyone to have access to the pieces they need to play the game.
I'm new to the game this year. It took me a few months to build a couple competitive decks, but now I am winning in my play group. How? I found MP/HP reserved cards and treated them like an investment that will grow over time. It's not like you spend the money and lose it. It's tied up in a growing investment. That is, unless people proxy the TCG to death and kill the market.
@@Syne111 that’s fine as long as people can buy the cards at a reasonable price. That can be a problem if investors step in and buy out the cards inflating the value of those cards and making it harder for the people that want them to play the game. The reason proxy cards exist is because people can’t get their hands reasonably on the cards to play the game.
In my play group we print every cards we play, we bought a printer for that and a paper cutter. We can print 10k copies for 20$, magic has become so much fun since we removed the financial barrier. And i love to print the image i want be it official or not.
I need more Arby's napkins to complete my stax deck XD
I recall in beginning of 00s there were already vintage proxy tourney as p9 / shop / bazaar were expensive (lotus around €1200, timetwister around €300). I thought that was already hideously expensive 😂
yet if you had bought the cards back then rather than proxy them, you'd be relatively wealthy today.. something to think about.
To those that want to proxy, MTG press is the easiest way that I've found to print a piece of paper with the picture and in the (almost) correct size. You can then slide that proxy and a non essential card into a sleave to play. It looks pretty good (if not a little bit dark), but its the best option that I've found to use as proxies. Other players can clearly see what the card is, and you don't have to do a lot of work to fit the size on your computer, since the website does that for you.
Sadly they don't update very often( ikoria is not even there yet) and they don't answer any mail sent to them, i started used deckstats they have everything much faster.
or you can go further and order proxies from China
I proxy everything. Even basic lands. I do own most of the real cards except for stuff like Timetwister because lol. I haven’t brought a real card with me to my LGS in well over a year and don’t plan on starting. I also could not care less who proxies what as long as everyone at the table is having a good game of EDH.
No, the overpriced products and refusal to reprint cards are what is ruining magic.
Make smart TCG investments and sell your cards for excellent profit. Magic is a TCG which is also a game. Play the investment for your own benefit.
I dont mind my opponent use proxies. I personally dont use cards i dont have.
Why don't you proxy cards you don't own? (Curious)
It just doesn't feel right, plus I don't want to deal with the "which card should I replace this with?" scenario when entering tourneys with a no proxy stipulation.
@@LocalGameGroup i dunno, i mean i only have few cards i dont have and i dont see them as a must have. U can loop with memory journey instead of twister, only none green deck use tabernacle, only heavy artifact deck use mishra factory. I play najeela as my main cedh deck or scepter thrasios.
@@LocalGameGroup I think that the four main reasons I don't do this are that I move a fair amount and thus play a lot at LGS' rather than with a consistent playgroup and not everyone is okay with proxies, I already own the vast majority of the cards I need/want at least when it comes to high value EDH/cEDH staples, I don't want to have to cut cards from a deck I am used to when I go to a sanctioned event, and to be honest a large part of the fun of the game to me is getting the cards I need or making due with what I have. As a lover of TCG's in general I really like trading and hunting down rare/valuable cards.
Idk maybe I watched to many TV shows like Yu-Gi-Oh!or Hunter × Hunter as a kid lol but the idea of finding a cool rare card is exciting to me so getting a proxy just doesn't feel nearly as good to me as getting the real card after hunting down a copy for a while. Really not playing with proxies is just more exciting for me but I don't begrudge anyone else playing with them, just because it's fun for me/because those are my priorities doesn't mean the same is true for everyone. I just wan't to get some good games in and I don't want who I play those games with to be limited by wealth, hell with me moving around so much I want the High Power EDH and cEDH communities as big as humanly possible so I can get games wherever I go.
I am the same. I started playing in '95 and back then having a card that no one else did made your experience as a mage something special. Most of the immersion in this game comes from chasing down the spell and then adding ot to the library. However, I don't need others to follow the same mindset. Though I do preach the old ways...
There's no replacement for Imperial seal...
Vampiric tutor: "am I a joke to you?"
The thing is, that if you're looking into using Seal you are already using Vampiric Tutor in your deck.
Me - "No, Vamp, babe, it's not that... Imp Seal is just a friend." Vamp - "Now she has a nickname!?"
@@TotteThorsen true, however Vamp is 1/10th the price so it's more "budget" friendly and a better card being am instant
@@jacob510 I also understood the implication that you'd only be looking at Seal if you were already on Vamp.
I love the dice diagram in the background. I liked and subscribed
When a proxy gets sold to you for full price.
That's a problem
Someone did this to me for a fetchland once
Thats not a proxy, that's a counterfeit
Just watched this. What if there was an organized proxy point system, as they do in Canadian Highlander? Like sort expensive cards into a list by frequency of use and you can have as many proxies as fit within a defined limit of "points." Something necessary in many decks, like dual lands, would be pointed lower than more specific cards like Chains of Timetwister. Could allow for good power balance / a sense of fairness with proxies in a tournament setting, without being overly cost-restrictive.
I think this is a solid idea, but it's a lot of effort on the organizers... That's the only thing holding it up.
@@LocalGameGroup Yeah I agree that it is probably too hard for any sort of unified stance like this to be taken. It would work for an individual monthly, weekly, or yearly tournament series, or at a specific LGS but couldn't be an across the board sort of rule.
In our local games store we have both worlds. We have 2 EDH groups that play at the same time. You can join the group where we allow all proxy. The entire 100 card deck can be pure proxy. The other group doesn't allow any proxy. The second group that don't play with proxies is supported and hand out prices from wizard of the coast.
This was my first time watching this channel and I really like you guys. Soothing voices and enjoyable tonal setting with the background music. Nice and understanding conversation on an intricate and divisive topic.
Both “Jedi” and “Sith”? This must be the balance my Master spoke of... Are you perhaps the chosen one? (Thank you!)
I love your videos! The capsaicin in chilis are contained mainly in the pith which is why the seeds are spicy(they are always in contact with the pith). To actually contribute to the topic though, proxies are a product of people wanting to play a game without spending or losing a boatload of money.
🥇
I use Proxies when I have multiple copies of X or because I need to test something. I don’t proxy just to proxy.
This conversation merits a like and a subscribe, which I have just done both
I was not aware that in 2002 Demonic Tutor, regrowth, monolith where part of the reserved list.
How did this come about?
Where can I get more info about this
The first list of Reserved Cards included:
All cards from Alpha/Beta that had not appeared in Fourth Edition or Ice Age.
All uncommon and rare cards from Arabian Nights and Antiquities that had not been reprinted in white border at that time (i.e., that did not appear in Revised, Fourth Edition, or Chronicles).
All rare cards from Legends and The Dark that had not yet been reprinted in white border.
In 2002's revision WoTC decided no cards from the Mercadian Masques set and later sets would be reserved. Commons and uncommons from Limited Edition were removed from the reserved list due to overwhelming public support for this change. In consideration of past commitments, however, no other cards would be removed from the list. The exception was Feroz's Ban from Homelands, which was reprinted in Fifth Edition but (mistakenly) still on the Reserved List at the time. It was also removed.
The original policy only applied to non-premium cards, meaning that Reserved cards could still be reprinted as a premium-exclusive card. When this was applied to Duel Decks: Phyrexia vs. The Coalition and From the Vault: Relics the Magic community's reactions were to a large extent negative. Starting in 2011, no cards on the reserved list would be printed in either premium or non-premium form.
So I am looking to proxy some of the more expensive cards I own as I dont want shuffle anymore. You mentioned FedEx prints. What is this? Looking for a good avenue to proxy them that are good quality. I'll take any advice. Thanks.
Using proxies is like putting a Porsche Logo on your Honda
I'm in one of those gamer playgroups that uses proxies to make sure everyone is on an even playing field, especially when new players start playing with us (for example, our Gitrog is new and running proxies to stay competitive). What we care about is having fun playing the game and that means as our decks improve over time so does the necessity of proxies. That being said, we don't proxy in casual matches, just when we play our serious decks.
One thing I think wasn't touched on is the forces behind the "collectibility" of the game being a TCG vs a universal allowance of proxies. Truth be told, people enjoy owning the real cards in their collection and even when given the option to proxy, they will hunt down whatever cards they can reasonably afford. For me personally I look at proxies like I do alters ─ effort put into making a proxy look nice or getting an alter done puts that intangible value into a card that makes it worth owning. When our playgroup gets to the point where we are proxying original duels, fast mana, etc, that's the approach I'll be taking with them.
Why problem? They are the solution for unsanctioned magic!
I play MTG for the interactions. The game of mental chess. And commander is the best when 3 opponents are all threatening a win and it comes down to who makes the better play.
I wanna play the player, not their wallet. HOWEVER, if it's a tournament with prize support and an entry fee, proxies don't belong there is a feels bad when you paid a fee only to lose to someone who doesn't own the cards. I'd even be fine if they used gold boarder cards, but not the name of the card written on the back of a basic.
Personally, I only proxies cards I own to prevent wasting time switching them out of other decks. I don't proxies cards I have no intention of buying or can't afford.
I feel the opposite, it feels bad to lose to an opponent who has an unfair advantage over you from the start. Really not much of a "win" when there isn't an even playing field. Not really your point, I know, but there's two sides to that coin.
I've been playing various games competitively my whole life and I will never be able to justify to myself spending the equivalent of two gaming PCs on a deck that will be necessary to enjoy Magic a handful of times per year ─ I have too much experience with competitive gaming to know that Magic isn't special enough for that kind of poor life choice. I can experience just as much satisfaction of self improvement and combat high of top level competition in soooo many other games out there.
I don't have any interest in investing into tournament Magic, so whatever the people who do agree on when it comes to cEDH tournaments is cool by me. If one allows proxies and I find myself in a position to attend, I'll go for it because I like cEDH and I like playing games competitively. Otherwise, I'll do something else with my time and money. I'm happy with playing games competitively while playing budget EDH and budget cEDH with my friends.
I realize this came off a bit harsh after typing it out, but honestly what other response is there to having that price barrier put up?
This I can agree with as now, you're playing for more than bragging rights, you're playing for money and other things, so I can then understand the want and need for real cards, but if you're not a competative player, then real cards should only be purchased within reason. If the card is over $10-$15, then proxy that shit, no need to waste money on fancy cardboard.
@@Hitzel or just go and get proxies for non competitive play? Seriously, it's a card game, not a money sink, so get proxies of cards you want and use those (though when I play people with proxies, the only rule I have is that, if you don't plan on buying the card, it has to look real enough and not just a print out, where the print out is allowed when you're in the process of buying the cards but don't have the money or are play testing).
In the game of life, the "better player" probably has more disposable income to buy pricey cards. You want to play the better player? Play the player that actual EARNED those cards.
When I was in late-middle/early-high school, the legacy players at my LGS would let me play with them using largely proxied decks. I got to play with cards I couldn't hope to afford and get exposure to more complex strategies, and they got to play with a fresh face and practice rarer matchups. It was a win-win
The best mox is submoxone! It casts all the Magistrates
I was in the middle cutting up proxies I printed off of MTGpress.com when I saw this video posted. I've been trying to find a balance and try to only proxy cards that I own somewhere in my collection. I have been collecting for a long time and have some reserve list cards. Since the beginning of the lockdown, I've been more lenient and I'd like to work toward owning all of the cards that I proxy but I also don't want to go broke. My playgroup allows proxies and I am okay with anyone using them. Keep up the good work. You guys are putting together good content.
Thank you, David! Also, thanks for your input... It's been hard on a lot of people, this ongoing pandemic, so the acceptance of proxies has become even more understandable. Totally agree.
My proxie style is that I use them when I'm testing out a deck or commander to see if it's fun for me so I dont waist money on a deck I'm going to take apparent
I personally don’t use proxies because I don’t enjoy playing with them. I have a fully optimal Jeleva storm deck except for Twister which I an working towards. But I also don’t care if my opponents use proxies, doesn’t really bother me at all. I just enjoy my cards more if they are real.
I feel this, I'm the same way. Twister is all I'm missing from my Urza build and I'll get it eventually, I'll just save up like I did for the rest of the deck. I just prefer playing with the real cards and as I have the collection/income that allows me to I don't see a reason not too, I'll just build towards what I don't have over time. That being said I don't care if an opponent uses proxies, I just want to get some good games in at the end of the day.
You can see them, you can touch them. They’re real
Totally understandable... I remember every major purchase I made and it definitely feels great knowing that 1. I supported a local store with that sale and 2. I've optimized my list through hard work and patience. It is a nice feeling, but I want the challenge of playing against opponents at their best. That means: knowledge of the deck, the game and most optimum lists. If that means they have to proxy, so be it. Not as rewarding winning otherwise.
I'm in your camp for the most part. My group does allow gold border and CE/IE. I have power minus the one card I would be able to play in EDH, Timetwister. I have a CE version I picked up some time back to play Old School. So, if someone plays proxies in a non sanctioned format then I don't care. I have always played legacy and some vintage and it is so hard to find people to play with I would prefer proxies be allowed for a number of reasons. Chief amonst them being that I could actually find people to play these formats against. And secondly, the fact that my Black Lotus and the rest of my power is so expensive I went and got a safety deposit box at my local bank to put my power, shops, bazaars, etc. It is hard to rationalize taking it to a major tourney at this point. Having a $5k Legacy deck get stolen is one thing, but a $25k vintage deck is another thing entirely.
When I make proxies for staples, say Demonic tutor, Mana crypt....something of that nature, simply a power piece to add to a deck, I make a handful of them and give them to my play group. Each of us having 1-2 copies of these staples lets us have a few high powered decks and still maintain a personal meta inside the group based on our actual collections.
The only instance where I'm totally fine with proxies is when they represent the front side of a double-faced card, so you don't constantly have to fiddle with the sleeve.
I agree that this is a very useful case for proxies. I make custom dual card (both cards on one side) proxies and keep the real card in a clear sleeve.
I came from competitive yugi and poker. my yugi friends who play magic, wanted me to start playing magic, but the price of magic commander cards that we never used to play for money ever was a turn off. To me I look at cards like " I don't mind if this card cost 200 and I need 3 because after I win X amount of tourneys and sell them at X price it was worth the investment. I know they're like stocks and the longer you have them the more they're worth, but spending 1000 for a cheap "competitive" deck to play with only 3 friends sounded terrible, but they told me I could print out proxies so we could just play and that made learning magic amazing. Now, we play every week and when the rona is over I'm buying cards to get into standard. Proxies are dope and make a casual format for people who don't collect amazing.
Ive been playing since '96 and i got most of the big stuff back when it was affordable. That said, I don't use proxies. Don't need to. Though I don't wanna win just because im older and bought in sooner. I'm a huge advocate of proxies in not just commander, but legacy and vintage.
I proxy cards i own at least 1 of and really only play edh. It allows me to broaden my collection instead of just buying another copy of a card i already own. Plus it allows me to bling out my deck with alternate arts i make on photoshop.
I'm part of a larger private playgroup and we all play mostly high power casual ( basically as strong as a deck can be without infinite combo) but we also play cedh now and then and we all agreed on 3 proxies are allowed for our cedh decks, it works out really well
Why 3? Seems pretty arbitrary. Why not 5? 10? 20? 100?
In my play group we usually allow proxies of only those cards you could afford. Since we don't play CEDH, this helps us keep the power level in check, because everyone knows that, for example, none of us will show up with a proxied Gaea's Cradle or a Mana Crypt. For the rest of the cards, proxies are usually placeholders made to play the decks we are excited about before buying the actual cards.
Looking up a card? I run a Japanese lord of The Undead in my Zombie deck. It is often overlooked by opponents that my zombies have +1/+1.
Foreign language cards actually bother me more than a quality proxy.
Basically for the exact reason you mentioned.
I want to be able to pick up and read what a card does- repeatedly, sometimes. Especially since wording (cast vs etb, for example) can be so important for interactions.
Also- I’m often playing on camping trips and such where there’s no service. Which means if I don’t already know the exact wording on the card, I basically just have to take someone’s word for it.
7:30 I think the same, I only have proxy cards that I already own. I understand that there are many people who cannot afford to buy very expensive cards, I fall into that category, but the truth is that it costs a lot of effort to buy some cards and not be able to buy even the 4 copies, and then someone who has 4 proxies of a card that he does not have in his own collection and win, it does not seem fair to me.
Any time the community can damage the MtG finance parasites, the better the game will be for players.
Echo of eons is a (somewhat) close budget friendly version of timetwister. Running it in my Urza cedh because I don't like running Proxys. I don't mind others using them but as a personal preference I don't.
Best thumbnail!
Im proxying quite a lot, lesser than before but still a lot but im okay with my playgroup that od i have intention of buying the card im allowed to use proxy
The group i plays with allows proxies if you own the card. I use proxies only because i dont want to buy multiple cards and dont want to switch cards between decks because even tho i write it down, i will forget something
my only problem with proxies is i bought some from wish and i ended up with a bunch of planseswalkers instead of dual lands
The Proxies that I encourage for are
Collector/International Editions
Gold Border cards
Printed proxies (FedEx office Max etc)
Hell there are artists like Rob Alexander that will paint on Gold border blank cards
I have some Goldies I want to have done for some of my staples: LED in particular, what with the price hike.
My playgroup plays not only play with full proxied decks, but also no ban list.
When we started I had a pre-con, but tools to buy for work so I wasn't upgrading it. We were playing 3 times a week for several hrs so eventually we started to tire of the same 3-5 decks(total in group) vs each other. So we started to proxy leading to more games and more fun. Then they started to build with no ban list as well(original mox and karaks, etc) , while I really enjoy jank. The thought that led to this was if we're not going to be able to play with them officially we might as well use anything. The savings grace is we don't build to combo very often witch keeps the power lv in check, and i pack artifact and land hate, so it evens out I think. Overall an ur dragon with 5 mox will only be so fast, especially if they get blown up.
I'm okay with proxies, I use them only in my commander cube. I spent maybe $5k on my commander collection and don't want to break that value immersion with my constructed decks.
Loved listening to your rhetoric. First video I’ve seen of your channel. I don’t proxy, but I also don’t play competitive. I’m fine with taking an “efficiency”/budget cut on my casual decks I take to the LGS and my playgroup. I am a collector at heart but I’ve only been playing for a few years so I DONT have those old cards. I’ve played against proxies, both good and crap quality, definitely did not like playing against the chicken scratch commander scrawled on lined notebook paper. I’m in the same camp as I won’t proxy myself but I’m okay with playing against them as long as it is to keep up with power level and not for pub stomping.
Glad you found the Channel and thank you for the kind words. With Commanders popularity rising, more and more folks are dipping their toes into the casual and competitive scene. We’re hoping folks that are interested in CEDH don’t get deterred due to budget constraints: which is completely understandable. It’s interesting seeing the reactions here to proxies as our group has always been open to them.
@@LocalGameGroup Yes! The more people playing Magic, the better.
@@LocalGameGroup I think I have discovered why I have a distaste towards proxies. I play lots of board card games; Cosmic Encounter, Dominion, Catan, Smash up, and other similar games. None of those games are as big as Magic which is an important factor. But my first thought on seeing an expansion for those games I might like IS NOT to just look up all the cards and print them off to play with. It’s to see if I can cut coffee or alcohol out of my week to save the money for it. Maybe it is just because Magic cards are so easy to obtain, it’s easier to look past it as a game piece. But I believe Magic has gotten so big and popular that it seems okay to make your own game pieces instead of purchasing them.
Since you asked, here's my thoughts on proxies.
What others do: don't care, I'm not competitive, so I'm unlikely to want to play against a cedh/sub-cedh deck to begin with.
For in-store casual play, I like to own the card in a binder but still use a proxy if it's in multiple decks, I want to use alternate art (some of the gore in black cards disturbs me), or if Oracle text has changed and I want to always have up to date rules text. Ready to spend a few minutes swapping out real cards if someone requests.
Kitchen table with friends: proxy anything below current value us$30, maybe 2-3 cards per deck over if they're integral to the strategy. I have fun brewing but only get to play about once a month, so I'd rather not invest in cards that only see play once or even never. Lately my decks have been 100% proxies apart from basic lands, because I get super lazy and don't want to have to dig through my collection to find one of a dozen Llanowar Elves or Evolving Wilds I know I have.
I am full on proxy now. However, I'm into the camp of doing your proxies well. I don't want a mountain crossed out with Ragavan written on it. I've found that the playing card making services that exist now are making cards well enough that I can enjoy proxied cards. For my cube, this is a game changer, since I can push extremely expensive cards into the cube, and invite brand new players to shuffle up with them, without sweating bullets.
1. Readable, full text
2. No pupstomping
I have a custom proxy of massacre girl that has the art changed to arya stark, but I always bring my actual massacre girl.
Oh, that’s awesome, haha... Please only play Arya 🤘
I'm okay with proxies and play with them myself but I do limit what I proxy. For instance I won't proxy a Cradle or OG Dual unless I own them simply because of their power level
I don't mind proxies one bit. I'd prefer they look good, I don't like seeing Sharpied up basics in sleeves, but I like proxies. In my playgroup, some of us are financially stable to own any card we want. Some of my buddies can't afford even a crypt without getting set seriously back on bills. Life comes first of course. But I want to play the player, not their wallet. Magic is a game and I don't believe in pay to win. Proxies help people play the game we love, the market hurts it.
When it comes to proxies I think it should be based on the level of your play group, for me personally I've come a long way in terms of deck construction and the level of cards I play with.
A lot of the expensive cards I own though were cards I got at the bottom of their price histories; cards like Vampiric tutor, Thrasios, and the various fetches reprinted in both khans and MM17.
I think it'd be weird to watch some just proxy up a tier 1 deck and then have no idea how to pilot it, so not only should your proxies be based on your play group, but also your own abilities.
What I love about edh is trying budget strategies and seeing their short comings and then investing in my deck, and myself and seeing the improvement to the deck I experience from obtaining newer, more expensive cards.
That being said, don't spend that money unless you're financially secure and stable enough to do it. Ultimately though, do what makes you happy at the end of the day.
Personally I only have proxies of cards I own, but would be obscenely expensive to purchase for multiple decks. However one of the things that always bugs me is when a player has a proxy of a cheap card. Once played against someone who proxied multiple sub 25 cent cards, while also having a real copy of demonic and enlighten tutor that they had purchased
I own a set of real fetches, but I have a boat load of high quality land proxies. In my old play group I'd hand out fetch and dual land proxies so everyone could use them within the group. Same for anything stupid expensive like cradle or Grim tutor. Also I put a small X in sharpie on the back of my proxies so they can't be mistaken for real cards. I don't own any see-through sleeves so they're not visible while playing.
Hard to use see-throughs with MDFC's being a thing. I like this policy though. I mark my proxies as well, so there's never any confusion anddd only proxy what I own.
@@LocalGameGroup I haven't see anybody talk about this, but proxies are very useful for MDFCs! You can have a dual mode card in an opaque sleeve and the actual card off to the side in a clear sleeve. This way you don't have to flip things in and out of the sleeve when using MDFCs. [Edit: the very next comment mentions this.]
Striving towards a happy in-between, wouldn't allowing proxies only for RL cards be a solution? The way I see it, most non-RL cards can be opened or bought for reasonably cheap after a reprint, and that supports WotC, while RL cards are stupidly expensive for someone like me, won't be reprinted in the forseeable future, and they make up most of the cost of a cEDH deck.
It's not just the reserved list though.
Look at Imperial Seal for example. Or Mana Drain, FoW, fetchlands, etc.
I guess it depends on your definition of "expensive"
My typical rule, which is something I've discussed with my playgroup before, is that I only ever proxy cards within my budget and that I would realistically purchase. It's a personal thing I go by but it seems to make the most sense. I can't personally justify buying a copy of many of the expensive dual lands, so I simply find alternatives to those and don't proxy them. It also functions as a guide to what I still need to throw into the deck, and can purchase accordingly.
Also, who wants to spend money on something they might not enjoy playing? Proxies are a good way to playtest decks without the added price tag!
I'd rather players use gold-bordered cards and square-cornered cards because those are actual cards made by WotC. They might not be tournament legal, but they're actual cards so they're okay to use. I use them as well. The only cards I've proxied are the Heroes of the Realm promos because there's literally only 4 of each of those cards in existence. Even then, I only have them proxied for my commander cube. So CE, ICE, and WC cards should be no issue at all outside of tournaments.
I personally resort to Gold/Square borders before ever using a proxy... If the option exists, it means I get to help out an LGS or online game store with that purchase. I always prefer playing with the actual product, legal or not. Totally agree.
@@LocalGameGroup Same. It's a shame that lots of cards are becoming increasingly expensive and newer players might have a more difficult time finding the disposable income for their newfound hobby. At least a lot of these more expensive cards like Gaea's Cradle, Grim Monolith, etc. have gold-bordered versions. But the square-cornered version of Timetwister costs a pretty penny even though it's not tournament legal. I think it has to do with Canadian Highlander allowing gold-bordered and square-bordered cards to be used in tournament settings. When that happened, a lot of these cards exploded in price. But don't quote me on that because I'm not entirely sure, lol. I'd have to research it further.
Most MTG cards originally sold for $.20-$.30 a piece within booster packs or similar products. Asking someone to spend $10,000, $1,000, even $100 for a card is just crazy for a game that is not just a collectible card game, but is also a game that people play. The Timetwister that was repeatedly mentioned only has ~22,800 real printings in existence. For some perspective, that is less than half the number of players playing Arena right this very second and a fraction of the global tens of millions of MTG players. Cards need to be reprinted or outright banned. The latter is a terrible idea IMHO. If WOTC won't reprint these format staples or rare niche cards to make them reasonably available to the people who want to play the game, then folks will continue to make proxies so they can play and enjoy the game.
After Secret Lair: The Walking Dead. I’m going to start proxing all my decks. Wizards doesn’t deserve more money.
Haha, go at it. I’m planning on making a Commander Cube. Likely to proxy the whole thing: more comfortable to travel with and will cost me $$$ less. 🤝
@@LocalGameGroup would you make video about commander cube? 😬😬😬
What about all the LGSs and independent sellers? WotC isn't hurt AT ALL from proxies. Your LGS is.
I use proxies but only lands and mana rocks so that I am not mana screwed. For spells I only use official cards because there are enough choices to make a fun and good deck
What y'all think about gold border?
Love ‘em.
cards not being accessible and affordable to players is the problem.
we are playing kitchen table magic with decks around power 5-8. we do allow proxies but only in really good quality (because of aesthetics) and only for fetch lands.
because it sucks not be able to play my cards due to the wrong mana color. it helps negating this issue...
if we would allow all proxies the power level would be to different and we wouldnt be able to play a lot of our more casual decks.
I support proxies. I also support your use of Margaret Organ-Kean art in the backgrounds of your cutaways.
They should allow proxies of RL cards in tournaments. At the very least allow proxies for RL cards over say $100.
At some point ive decided not to put cards over 200 bucks on the table with random people anymore. I have a binder with all my staples with me and i use proxies in the deck. I also have too many decks and i use proxies as a place holder.
Great episode.
Tournament proxy rules are hypocritical, you can't force scarcity with a reserve list and not allow those, or any, cards to be proxied yet allow the reserved card to be legal (I know Wizards doesn't control the format rules but they do offer prized tournaments and control the printing). As the game grows, there are literally not enough of some cards for everyone who wants one to have one. I have not used proxies to date but I'd love to play cEDH and it's not financially feasible without them.
For many, no. It's as Justin said, we don't want folks to be scared to even try because of the price barrier. I always recommend mono-colored lists to new players because the costs are relatively low (Land base being inexpensive), but even still you will need many staple cards such as fast mana to accelerate your turns. Hopefully, we'll see even more reprints of staple cards. If Mana Crypt were as common as Sol Ring, the world would be a better place, haha.
And if you can. Support amazing proxy/alternative card artists! They bring magic into their own artistic minds.
If this game was reasonable with card prices, if the game had more useful reprints, if the game didn't have finance hoarders, then people wouldn't use proxies. Single playing cards costing over $5 is ridiculous. However... special editions that cost cyclonic Rift money is fine. You don't have to buy it. But the vanilla edition should be cheap. But let's continue how we are and end the game.
Asking for a $5 Gaea's Cradle is too much to ask. A card is valued at how much people are willing to spend on it, and even if Gaea's Cradle somehow becomes a common in the next set, it's still gonna be expensive.
FedEx list ? are you talking about sending your home made cards to Fedex Office to print ?
No, he’s suggesting just using a color printer (like the ones at FedEx).
The soft rule in our group is no proxies of cards that you don't have or that would be otherwise way too expensive. For example, we really don't care if you proxy a signet you don't have because you just can't get one at the moment. Also our play groups power level is high but not absolute peak perfection so someone just rolling up with a proxied tabernacle or nether void would just feel kind of dirty and annoying. But the rule is very flexible because we want everyone to play what they want. We just let people do what they want. It's just our guiding principal that keeps everyone on the same level
f in the chat for that landless game 😔
#LandlessLoss
I’m all for proxies in casual play. We don’t limit our proxies when we play at our LGS. I just don’t proxy myself because I’ve been collecting for over 25 years. But if you use proxies, put the effort into them. Don’t you dare take a sharpie and write down mana crypt on a basic land.
However at our LGS, we do league play as well. We did try to limit it at 5 proxies. What was happening was a few too many kids were proxying way over 5. So NO proxies allowed in decks. cEDH decks not allowed. We’ve had to boot a couple players over the past year because they consistently brought cEDH decks. Myself including two others play cEDH regularly so it isn’t hard to spot them.
Of course we’ve heard the arguments from other people about limiting price per deck or cards but then what’s the point of playing edh if I can’t use my old cards. No one plays legacy or vintage in my area really other than people I know but it’s not big enough to support that 60 card format. EDH caught my attention for this reason alone.
I've seen this happen at my lgs as well when vintage and then legacy started dying out.
The vintage crowd still play once a year, when they all take a group photo holding their Black Lotuses :p
Why did your LGS ban CEDH decks from being played? This is specifically for your league?
The 99 Yes. Specifically for league play only. We have a small core of 4-6 (four come regularly, the other two we see monthly) that can play cEDH which we do but currently we have 29 players for EDH league. We were going to allow cEDH decks for it and maybe not allow guys to win all the time but we couldn’t really do that since we pay a small fee to go towards a pot and we do have prize pack support from the LGS. It’s basically something we all discussed. The first year, it was a mess 🤣. The second year, we’ve improved along with rules like the above. There aren’t many so it isn’t overwhelming. We don’t have a house ban list. We just go by the RCs list.
Wotc's reprint policy is the problem. Why is cyclonic rift still so expensive? Its been in high demand for years now and hasn't seen enough reprints. The fetchland problem is even worse.
WotC's reprint policy DOES if fact suck. That does excuse IP theft.
My play group says you can have 10 proxies of cards over $10 in value and as many proxies as you need for the cheaper ones
There are websites that make REALLY good proxies like MPC. You can get multiple EDH lists for under 100 USD. You can use custom art etc.
I would never take an expensive deck anywhere outside of my house or to the house of a good friend. People steal, stuff gets lots, drinks can be spilled.
I could not sit back and relax when I have to watch out for 2k worth of cardboard.
I think the solution might be to just make some rules. It could either be by card price, say >$30, and/or on the Reserved List, or by power level. I think it's Canadian Highlander? that uses the point system? Maybe say nothing over a certain power level can be a proxy.
i don't really know my stance on proxies tbh. i don't own any maxxed out decks. But i do like to make high powered decks. But the constant collecting and upgrading is also part of the game that makes it fun to me. I think if i printed the perfect deck right i way, i would maybe get bored of the deck. Now me and my deck can keep on improving, which is fun for me.
But i do have to admit, i have bought a chinese proxy for chains of mephistopheles and nether void. because those cards are soooo far out of budget that i would never be able to get them
My LGS allows up to 10 proxies but they have never really inforced it as its very casual there on commander nights and there is no prizes for winning. There are prizes for participation and showing up though. Typically a roll off per play group for a random promo out of the promo box. I personally don't like Proxing unless I own the card but I have for dual lands only,.
I'm 56 years old and have been buying since Alpha. How are young kids going to compete with old farts like me if the can't use proxies?
I would love to crack some Alpha packs, haha... Very jealous.
Really cool to see other people's opinions on proxies. I use them im not buying a mana crypt for each of my decks (not that I even own one) so I have no problem with proxies all I ask tho is you put effort into a proxies don't just write it out on paper i want to see the actual card.
I was really excited to get into magic. Dropped 1k on cards for CDEH. Went to a tournament and they had dudes playing with pieces of paper with chicken scratch as proxies....Ruined my experience. I can understand homebrew games, but this was at a tournament at a shop where I paid money to enter.....And he was not the only one. Genuinely flabbergasted.
It's one of those awkward ones where the store allows it for events. Stores in that case to me have a responsibility to warn people that it's allowed, whether it's when you enter or on the event listing. Cause of you're not ready for it, it creates the problems you described.
Also they should be enforcing full colour proxies. None of this pen on a basic land shit. That's obnoxious
If you own the card, and it is either graded or something you would lose sleep over if it were spilled on, feel free to proxy. I would argue that most people know that subset of cards well enough that you don't even need to buy a FedEx (love that term) proxy, but it is a nice thing to do. Otherwise don't, just don't, use a card you don't own. It destroys one element of the game, which has always been finding a way to get the cards you want. I remember borrowing cards from friends in the 90s and that was totally fine with everyone because it didn't create an artificial supply of cards that everyone else pays or trades for. That limited supply is part of the bigger "game".
If you destroy the need to own a card, don't be surprised to get a negative reaction from people that are only playing cards they actually own. This has been the general rule since a Lotus broke $100.
Now... If you need to level things out in a playgroup, or even with a stranger that you kinda figure out you are simply overpowering, offer to play your Mox as if it were basic land or just pull out your tabernacle. Even back in the 95-96 window, when I would argue there was the largest problem with some people owning power and others not, the solution was that people had many decks and played to the level of their competition. Having everyone scale up to the ideal deck destroys all the creative juices that normally comes from the constraint of using cards you actually own. Why would a brainstorm have any value at all if everyone could just proxy Ancestral Recall (OK, I realize I'm giving away my age here, but you get my point).
I myself only proxy cards that I have a copy of. For instance, I got both a Sensei's Divining Top and a Scroll Rack, one copy each. I use proxies of them throughout my various decks, so that I don't have to rotate the actual copy in and out. Same for my copies of Mana Vault and Rystic Study.
Obviously, this works for a number of players, but not everyone. I myself can't really justify buying a Mana Crypt or Gaia's Cradle, because the prices of those cards are into the hundreds of dollars.
As for other players using proxies, I don't care, as long as the proxy is legible.
I want to play my expensive cards. I don't want people complaining that they cannot compete, so I encourage people to proxy whenever it is not a sanctioned tournament. While I don't mind too much buying 8 counter spells or 12 lightning bolts so I can have them in multiple decks, I am very adverse to buying 8 of the same exact fetch land to have them in 2 decks. I also don't want to pull a deck apart to make a different one. At a certain point, I don't want to pay an extra $4 for lightning bolts 13-16 for another deck, especially after I had a deck stolen with 4 black boarder foreign language versions. I do expect decent printing of the proxy, I should be able to easily tell what it is from across the table, even upside down, like I can with real cards.
They reprinted Cradle after 2011. It was a judge promo, but it did happen.
Mistakes were made... How dare we see more Cradles! You mean the expensive, foil one? Haha
I'm fine with proxies, but I don't play with any proxies (yet). I just like the constraint.