Proxies in Commander: An Important Discussion | Should Players Have a Pre-Game Proxy Talk?
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- čas přidán 21. 02. 2022
- Would players benefit from a pregame proxy discussion? We think so, but we also have to clear up a lot of misconceptions about proxies that are making the discussion difficult for many players.
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I just came back to this video because the other day, I was at my LGS and somebody was talking to the owner about trying to set up a cEDH tournament where anybody could proxy whatever they wanted to. I spoke to the guy afterwards, and when speaking to him learned that the reason why he wanted to do this was because he had fun playing cEDH but wanted to include people that otherwise couldn't afford to play cEDH decks. His goal was to lower the physical cost of playing something he enjoyed in order to include others. The example he gave me was that he didn't think it was fun to play a highly tuned deck worth a couple thousand dollars against someone's $100 budget because he didn't want games to feel like it was a contest of who could spend more money on their deck.
That really goes against WoTC’s devision to make the game about who spends the most money on a deck 🤷♂️
Real talk cEDH cannot be real competitive EDH if proxies aren't allowed.
I run some proxies in my decks, but they're just cards I own that are staples that I don't want to buy copies of, I color print off the web and get them sized correctly and just sleeve them up with another card so that it's easy to recognize. This hobby is expensive enough without having to rebuy some of these $5-$10 cards that go in a lot of decks multiple times.
I had 14+ command towers and I said this is enough.. there can only be one ☝️ seriously traded all my staples down to one and bought a bunch more at 1 ofs
I'll proxy some pricy cards I intend to buy for decks. This way I can play test before buying the expensive pieces to a deck. If the deck isn't good, I haven't dropped several hundred dollars to find out.
I have been doing something similar. I use the day/night proxy cards to be placeholders for my staples in decks and I just have a single copy iff to the side like people do with their tokens.
At my house Idc if you proxy, I want to play your best build. Playing in a shop or tournament I feel u should be able to proxy if I own the card and the proxy is proper size and thickness to not give some sort of advantage. I'm omw to owning 1 of each dual, 3 short now, a nether void, chains, gaea cradle, lions eye and I simply do not want to buy multiple or keep resleeving them for multiple decks
I proxies the $500 cards I had a 1 of cause $500 is different than the $5
The only time I have a problem with proxies is when someone has a blank card with only a name on in to the extent we have to look up to confirm what it does. At least write it down or print out a legible representation of the card.
Yes. Proxy all you want, but it needs to be clear what it is and the original card's text should all be there. I dont want to have to look it up on scryfall to find out what it does
I play in a playgroup of young kids( my kids and nephews) and ive been collecting since 2000. There's no possible way for them to catch up to my collection and subsequent power of my decks, without spending more money than they have. They've gotten to a point in magic where they want to play at a higher level so I recommended proxies for them and let me tell you, they are killing it! I have no problem with them playing proxies. They still purchase regular cards as well. Plus, since I'm the oldest of the group, 34, I always buy them regular versions of the cards they proxy. I don't have to guess what they'd like for their birthdays lol.
Right on, man! When I started playing EDH a few years ago I was a middle aged man being taught by a group of middle school students at my local game store on Sundays. Half of their decks were proxies... I was a bit bewildered at first, but I quickly realized that they were playing within their means. I personally don't use proxies... I am glad to build my decks from my "legal" card collection, but it was hella fun getting bounced by a bunch of young folks infinite squirreling and milling me out. Was a real sharp learning curve that got me up to speed. and boy was it FUN!
Proxying allows more players to have access to more tools to play the game, I think that is a big positive for the format
Proxy is fine but please be generous with informing what kind of cards you proxied and what powerlevel we're playing at. Rule 0 basically
why should you inform anyone whether you have proxy or not? only relevant thing for play group is the power level.
Some proxy cards can be immersion breaking in their quality, it’s nice to know your opponent might lay a white card with a name scribbled on it on the table for their smothering tithe ahead of time. For me at least 🤷♂️
I have 2 proxy decks myself with lots of alternate art and I always inform my opponents before shuffling to make sure everyone is on board. Which so far they always have been.
@@BridgeTROLL777 Ignoring the feelings of those who would rather not play against proxies doesn't make you correct.
@@Cybertech134 Is it a game of luck and skill? Or who has the most money?
Only reason to NOT play against someone with proxies is that players EGO. "I have paid 1000 dollars for top tier cards so i Feel FOMO and dont play with you bc I want to enjoy my (unfair) advantage and play on easy mode"
Naturally everyone decides for themselves if you dont want to play with someone then dont and if you want to use 100% proxies do just that but dont be suprised if many wont then want to play with you if you insist on no proxies rule.
If your issue is power balance then that can be talked over separately.
@@BridgeTROLL777A part of luck and skill is making the most of the cards available to you. Pretending that authenticity won't matter to many people is just laughably hilarious. It has nothing to do with ego or money; we just don't want to play against fake cards.
I would rather have my friends proxy so their decks are at my power level. We have more fun, see more cards, and can optimize playing the most fun cards not the cheapest/best cards.
Couldn't agree more.
I have more expendable income than my friends and feel pretty bad when I play more expensive cards. Encouraging proxies in my mind helps with card disparity.
Exactly! Rather than lowering your own power level and make the game less enjoyable for you, just let everyone raise theirs up and everyone has more fun! This is one of the many reasons why proxies are amazing!
Play the player not their wallet👍
@@bye1551 unless they've got a force of will turn 0 there's no fun to be had with a turn 1 nether void 🙃
@@frostyglock317 that comes to a matter of power level.
Having a vintage collection, many of my cards are a bit spendy and I am wary of bringing 10K worth of magic cards to a LGS to play and would rather bring copies so I don't stress about getting my stuff stolen.
Agreed.
that goes under you already own the card then proxies are fine. Its totally understandable that you dont want to bring your cards worth hundreds of dollars that could possibly get wrecked/lost/stolen.
Though this is a different discussion if your playing a deck thats valued at thousands of dollars are you playing CEDH? as if your playing a deck that is worth alot it does not seem like you might be playing casual edh.
@@thedanath Not CEDH. Just when you start to tally up a five color mana base, ten duals, ten fetches, ten shocks start to add up fast. Not to mention I am so old I actually pulled my mana vault out of a magazine.
@@thedanath You could make a deck out of cards exclusively from the reserved list and it would be insanely expensive but the deck would probably be ass. While price does often line up with power level, it's never 1 to 1. Price of a deck is not a great indicator of how strong a deck is. Many top tier combos involve very cheap cards.
@@xantu4444 did yoh see the dude with a shit ton of magazines he made bank off all those crypts
I personally don’t care if you proxy anything even if you don’t own it. I had someone with a proxy cradle and I just joke “so it makes half the mana because it’s a proxy” , we chuckle and we move on to have a nice game
Or you point to their Jordans and ask if they are proxies too
That's actually hilarious
This is exactly the attitude the whole community should have to proxies (if they care at all) just laugh and play the game! Magics to be played, especially commander which is casual.
In response just take a piece of paper and write strip mine on it for all players to see, then shove it over a card in your hand haha
In all honesty though, proxying a card that maaaybe should be added to the banlist but isn't since the price of the card keeps playability down shouldn't be proxied. Ofc depends if the rest of the table runs it and you are a poor student unable to lay down 1k
So Im of the philosophy of "don't proxy to pubstomp" if youre just proxying to powerup your deck outside of the strict context of CEDH (or like an understanding that it's ok ahead of time) like idk feels super scummy like oh cool you're throwing in proxy'd fetches true duals and gaia's cradle to your playgroup or a random game like why are you doing that?
Because who wants to spend $Ks on a card game?
I say whatever any of the playgroup owns is proxyable and free game. I dont own a Gaia's Cradle but my friend does and he wants me to proxy one so games stay even and fair
"like" definitely!
@James Black Pubstomp tends to be thrown around when someone loses unless they all play regularly.
Example. I have a Gargos, Vicious Watcher deck. I don't use dorks, but run Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Gaea's Touch, Exploration etc. I took out all x spells from the deck. Sometimes, green does green things and I've gotten a kill on turn 4, even got a turn 3 infect kill w/ Phyrexian Hydra once.
Hydra tribal is weak, mono-color unless you're goblin combo or elfball is weaker than skimming the tops of multiple colors. I have to turn creatures sideways to win. Sometimes Apex Devastator on t5 cascades into Concordant Crossroads, but a lot of times I play my commander on t4, he gets removed and I twiddle my thumbs waiting for 8 mana.
Has it "pubstomped" ? It certainly has been pubstomped. How do you tell if your deck is built that way ? I tell ppl I'm playing mono green hydras and I win by combat. I feel it's just extremely synergistic especially for only having access to 1 color.
@@seanhayes9792 What
Proxies are a great opportunity to customize your deck. Making cards fit the theme of your deck. Turning all your slivers into xenomorphs, turning all your eldrazi into cthulhu horrors, making your instant and sorceries into a goofy goblin theme, etc.
A few things that usually hold true for proxies:
1) cEDH communities are generally more accepting of these because you want to power up your deck
2) Most people are happy if you own 1 real copy. Can't be putting real crypts in every deck
3) Don't just throw 0 artifacts, blue counters, and black tutors into every deck because you can proxy. Using them to pub stomp is a no-no.
Also using a proxy because you're trying to avoid wear and tear on an expensive card that you already own is fine with the play groups I've interacted with.
I disagree with point 3
Point 3 should fall under the power level discussion rather than the proxy discussion.
Point 2 is here or there. I don’t think proxy players should have to justify their use of proxies to the playgroup.
Having to own a copy shouldn't be a thing. I can't afford to have some 60 plus cards right now nor can most i know. But the proxies we use are just for decks that needed the boost
About point 3 : someone offered me 1 "Demoniac Tutor" : i'm considering proxy it for another EDH 🤔 (My first and strongest EDH has it + Liliana Vess and Diabolic tutor)
And since I have no vampiric tutor at all, i'm not considering proxy it.
Thank you for addressing this. I have always said proxies aren’t the issue. Underneath the “proxy problem” is the true problem of accurately and honestly determining deck power levels.
Crim from MtgGoldfish said it best: if you’re not playing cEDH and you’re not playing a precon, everything in between should be fair game.
I just started playing Commander with a friend group this year and have been able to easily join games through making proxies of my own. I've been transparent about the decks I've made and it's been great! With that being said, one of my favorite decks (Queen Marchesa, long may she reign) comes to ~$2600! Even if I could afford it, there is no way I am putting that kind of money into a deck I am going to play a few times with my friends. You can't compare the cost of a deck to power level or even fairness; that cost is AFTER I removed any tutors, infinite loops, etc to help bring it closer to a reasonable/fun deck.
Another really great video guys! All of your videos have been helping me get ramped up in Commander. Cheers!
Do you have the list?
As long as it is eligible and doesn't go crazy with the power level in your playgroup then it shouldn't be a problem
I can't afford the good cards, my solution is to just build the best budget deck possible, but I find that really fun to do and would probably still do it even if I could afford any card. I personally feel dirty using proxies, but that's just me.
Yeah, that's just you.
No it isn’t, I feel the same way
Totally understandable.
You should feel dirty, proxies are filth. It's a collector card game. There's cards I will never own because of their price. That's what brings variety to deck building... Build the best deck you have, not the best deck you can draw with a crayon.
@@martyncardno2172 I agree 100% if you can't afford it, don't build it. There are lower budget cards available. I don't understand how people think Proxies enhance deck variety. Every deck would have og dual lands, Gaea's Cradle, Necropotence, etc. It would makes the meta much more linear. Any pro plays a deck, now every person can use it? No...
My playgroup consists of 3 of my brothers, my mother, my wife, and a few friends and their parters. I was never one to proxy but after watching this video I asked my playgroup and they were all fine with it. I will definitely be proxying after today. Thank you for your POV.
That's a wild playgroup! Nice!
A fair and reasonable discussion. Also, my 12 year old daughter loves your content. Thank you for being an excellent role-model by taking responsibility for a mistake and apologising.
MTG story time:
When I first started playing (about 12 years ago) I didn't like to play against proxies. At the time, I acquired cards by cracking packs, drafting, and trading. Everyone in my playgroup at my school was pretty much doing the same and it was so much fun. We built decks with what we had, and we had no idea about cards we were "missing out on". Even when I started buying singles, it took a long time for me to figure out what all the best cards/strategies were. And I didn't want to look up anything because I really enjoyed building decks that were uniquely mine with my collection. So when I first encountered proxies after maybe a year of playing it felt kind of off to me. I didn't have a huge cardpool and I had already spent a lot of money (for me at the time) on what I had, so the idea that you could just play any card was strange at first. What I ended up finding was that at the time, playing against someone using proxies usually meant I was in for a rough game. I knew they probably had a lot more knowledge of available cards and had much more optimized decks. It meant they were probably handpicking their cards from the pool of all cards, and I just wasn't doing anything like that. And I had no issue with people who wanted to play with proxies but I did decline some games over it, or borrowed another person's deck if I could. Of course I was occasionally stomped by someone without proxies (obviously proxied doesn't necessarily mean competitive) but something felt worse to me when I lost to proxied cards. I was really attached to my cards that I had assembled and preferred if opponents had "assembled" theirs. I was proud, probably too much, of what I could create under heavy restriction, so how could anyone beat me with cards they don't even have?!
Today, I play primarily on cockatrice with my buddies online, which is essentially using only proxies. Im a veteran who's gone through several iterations of playgroup power creep. I have won and lost the game so many times in so many ways. I don't care in the slightest what my opponents are bringing. I build well-tuned decks and use the staples, though I'll always have a taste for jank. I buy singles, many of them, and build decks with cards I've referenced from other players' decks. The way I approach the game is almost completely different than when I began. I love magic now and I loved it then. And I'm glad I got to progress through the game at my own pace. I am in full support of proxies, but I also think there is definitely something to playing magic under heavy restriction. Cost being a restriction is obviously not a good thing by itself, but any restriction on deck building has the interesting side effect of pushing you to improve and enjoy the process of deck building.
All this to say, proxies are all good and fine for a lot of people *and* there are good reasons not to want one's magic experience to be too full of proxies.
I played against a guy at pre release that proxied his sagas cause he forgot to bring sleeves and didn't want to buy more. COMPLETELY FINE! the pen he used made it a little difficult to read but the games we played were great!
if he used the substitute cards that come in the draft packs, those technically are not proxies, they are substitutes as they were produced by WOTC to represent a game piece.
My playgroup has a rule: You can proxy cards you already own a copy of, since you'd technically just be able to move them around from deck-to-deck anyways. The proxies have to be decent quality, so people can look at it and know what it is.
That's exactly what I do. I only order proxies for cards I own at least one actual copy of. Because if someone REALLY wants me to, I will straight up move that card from one sleeve to the other. But I'd really rather not.
This is the best way to do it. Proxying only when it's to make the entire group's experience better.
I’m cool with proxies in my games, but I’m not surprised if someone is against it. MTG is a collector’s game and can be argued that MTG is “pay to win” as powerful cards are stuck behind an expensive paywall. While I personally don’t mind it, I’d still like a heads up so I’m not blindsided by them and if someone with proxies make sure the whole text is there, that is much much more preferable. However, people with proxies should take into consideration that others may not be okay with it and have cards to swap out or another deck instead.
What if the player with proxies is a new player with just the one deck?
@@lukepilon4440 A "new player with just the 1 deck" would most likely not have built it from scratch. Precons are far more prevalent. The deck comes w/ 100 real cards already.
Encouraging a new player to seek out alternatives instead of supporting their local LGS is not the best idea either.
@@lukepilon4440 what the other guy said. That being said, I would still be understanding to the new player and let it slide because they prolly don’t understand the rule 0 talk as much or understand the “issues” with proxying (if you could call them issues)
@Sean Hayes most new people don't like just grabbing a precon because they are boring with only 3-6 choices at any given time.
Eh, proxies don't matter for the most part. They allow for a lot of players to get into the game and not let price be a gate. I will say this, proxies should be limited to casual, non-tournament play (IMO). Hence me never playing CEDH/tournaments. :)
@Josh C. Exactly. CEDH is all about playing with the optimal deck you can create and playing against other people's best. Nobody expects someone to drop thousands of dollars on a Timewister and then shuffle up with it.
@Josh C. That's the differential. CEDH with people and events that allow proxies is one thing. But honestly, if there's a fat prize for something, seems rough to win with proxies...and I'm a proxy player.
@@ssvr6 one way to get your leg in on owning the real thing.
@@Astronomater I'm the guy in the example with plenty of money but not interested in spending it on high priced cards. I'll always proxy them. :)
@Josh C. this answer! People who gatekeep because they have a budget blow my mind. I have a only cards I own "this does include gold bordered wizard made cards" that's like 3-5k. I would never be upset or offended if someone played proxies across from me and I wouldn't make them feel bad for it incase it was a budget issue. I dont want to win with my wallet.
Where I play, we usually have the rule of if you got it once you can proxi it (or if your playtesting/waiting for a card) because we realized some people can easily go ham where we like to stay casual or just highlevel but still friendly. (Usually to help new players of the cafe to adjust better to the group’s energy)
Why not have a rule that if anyone in the meta has the card, then anyone can proxy it? That would sure solve any "gatekeeping" arguments, and it would feel a whole lot fairer to those who can't afford the more expense cards that some of your players might be proxying across all their decks...
@@dantesdad Its not that we’re gatekeeping any cards, we are not actually going to check if everybody has every card they play, but its kind of a way to slowly intoduce the new players to “casual” magic and with the levels system because it can get pretty frustrating when new players just get a whole paper deck and uses crazy cards without even understanding them. I have to say, i dont gatekeep but i have to admit it makes me sad when (as an exemple) a player uses a super expensive counterspell that they dont own in a level 6-7 environment just to be above the others… i think this rule has been established because we play in a “public” environment and play with new people regularly that we just made that base rule.
If someone i know comes and asks if he can try his crazy proxie deck for fun, absolutely!
cEDH players are generally accepting of proxies. We want to play against you, not your wallet. The only reason my cEDH deck has all real cards is there are stores in my area that run tournaments that don't allow proxies.
Damn your stores dont allow proxies? That sucks. I know the want to make money but get more people to the Tournament means more customers..
@@Bezoldz They report the tournaments as events in Wizards Event Reporter, and any event reported that way cannot allow proxies for obvious reasons. They just don't want to get on WOTC's bad side.
It makes sense for a hosted tournament ... ppl are paying to enter and it is "official" but I hope LGS would be cool with proxies decks in casual pick up games
Tbh in a real game I wouldn’t want to play with proxy 😑😑😑 , that’s a tournament not playing with ur friends …
@Matt Deters as far as I know you can't report edh anyway because it's not a sanctioned format.
This was a great episode and I really enjoyed the beginning, I don’t know the entire backstory behind it but the fact the at you took responsibility for your actions speck volumes to your character 💯
Facts
We made a mistake and we own it! :)
@@NitpickingNerds What mistake? Only saw the apology on Twitter
I appreciate your overall perspective in this video, regardless of the topic at hand. Everyone is allowed their opinion and to respectfully debate it with others. We can help each other grow and have new understanding by listening.
I've been enjoying your content but even better than your information is just the fact that you both come across as thoroughly decent human beings.
It's awesome to have such genuinely great people as voices in our community.
I'm fine with proxies to a limit. I don't want to sit across from a player with 20+ proxies where it is just stuff written on a plains. So much of playing magic is visual recognition of cards. People HATE and basically ban some cards because they drag the game out needlessly. A bunch of proxies that aren't recognizable by a quick glance does the same thing.
The statement by Wizards is also probably a clarification on breach of copywrite.
This a vary fair complaint to have
Fair point... Curious what you think of all the alternate versions from frames to art and custom art altered cards that are still 'legal' cards... think of a full art textless cards that not everybody could recognize (Harmonize, Rampant Growth, PoE etc.)...
@@thetogtube2 I don't mind alternate arts as I learn the art after one look. I hate textless though. I don't want to have to ask someone what their card does. There are a lot of these things in promo/secret lairs too. It's even worse for cards with modes. Cryptic Command has a full art textless version and it should be banned imo.
Was just listening to a podcast from MTGGoldfish Commander talking about the banned list in EDH. If it doesn't exist for people just coming into commander or mtg as a whole, what point does it serve? So many players pick up commander as their first MtG experience now. Textless cards are harmful to the new player experience imo.
It is a little different though. There is the problem of not knowing what the card does (textless), and then not having differentiating art (20 proxies on plains). The problem with the proxies is that they can have 6 of them out and you have to move to a position to read them all every time you want to interact. Textless is usually just a problem the first time it is played as I can remember the art after that.
@@123darkdeal great points all around. I'm big on art and it would be frustrating to have all the game pieces be basic lands with sharpie and having to read them reach time for sure.
Thanks for elaborating :)
MTGPrint, CTRL + P. Cut them out and slot them in front of the lands, done
I still don’t understand why someone would be opposed to proxies. As long as you’re at a good power level for the table, what’s the problem?
Because rich kids want to make sure they win.
There are a lot of good reason to oppose proxies. Including the cards not being as recognizable.
@@NitpickingNerds I always really appreciate your videos and the way you come at these discussions.
Curious what you think of all the alternate versions from frames to art and custom art cards that are still 'legal' cards... think of a full art textless cards that not everybody could recognize (Harmonize, Rampant Growth, PoE etc.)...
I do agree that those things make playing the game harder and sometimes less enjoyable. Has the Rules Committee has ever spoken about this? You mentioned WoTC's take on playtest cards but they have no say about Commander... the Rules Committee does though right? And the the end of the day RULE ZERO.
@@NitpickingNerds that’s not an issue with all proxies, or an issue exclusive to proxies. Weird secret lair arts, altered cards, and those fancy alter-sleeves are not proxies, so this convo doesn’t include them. Home-printed proxies with the original art that are easily legible and recognisable don’t have this problem, but are proxies so are still included in this convo. So the issue really isn’t with proxies, surely?
@@NitpickingNerds saying "there are many good reasons" is a non-argument. "There are many good reasons to believe that the moon is made of cheese" doesn't mean the moon is made of cheese, it means you can't form an argument.
As for cards being recognisable, that's an issue with the quality of the proxies. If someone cares about the quality of the experience, they'll put time and effort into their proxies, not just wrote a word on the back of a card. If you have an issue with that, that's fine, but you don't have an issue with proxies, you have an issue with lazy presentation. The same issue would apply with a real card that's been folded or damaged.
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Amber is the cutest cat!
I always really appreciate your videos and the way you come at these discussions.
I kept coming up with questions to things you were talking about and typing up questions... only to delete what I wrote bc you answered it.
Kudos.
Next Video: Counterfeit Cards that look real... SPICEY... same logic?
When I first began playing I worked incredibly hard to get the cards I needed for my deck by trading and tracking down the right ones. I saw people running entire proxy decks. I had no issue with it until I found out one of them wouldn't ever buy MTG cards(he had the means to do so). That's the only time I'm against them personally. No matter the opinion on WotC at the end of the day they produce, create and distribute MTG which we all know and love. Gotta support them at least a little bit when we can. Support creators big and small.
This is exactly how I feel. Mainly supporting the people who create continue to develop the game
They're a billion dollar company, I support them in other ways. (Mainly through DND). Besides, the secondary market (how you buy singles) doesn't support wizards at all, buying off cardmarket doesn't give wizards money. I crack a pack occasionally to play draft, I'm never buying a full deck that could cost £100 at the minimum and thousands if I want powerful cards. If you want to support wizards, then you shouldn't be buying singles.
@@bye1551 Your LGS would prefer you buy singles vs coming into their store which exists to sell real cards and promote fakes. This mentality is reprehensible. We'll just call you cheap and leave it at that.
@@seanhayes9792 cheap? I'm poor, I can't afford to spend that much money on cardboard. The level of classism is honestly disgusting. Grow up, get a grip of the real world or go back to your gate.
@@bye1551 What real world do you speak of ? I live in the real world. Maybe you live in a proxy world with unicorns farting 🌈
I typically mention if I have proxies beforehand. I also only really proxy cards I already own a copy of because I have way more EDH decks than copies of cards.
Honestly - I kinda love the decision making involved in the process of cascading changes through my deck collection. If I pick up a Mana Crypt, it means something is coming out of a deck, and that card might go into another deck, and so on and so on. It lets me more easily have decks at a lower power level because I'm not putting staples and high impact cards into every deck that can use them. That's just me though - I play at a LGS against plenty of strangers and I get that lots of groups and metas are very proxy-friendly.
anyone thinking of using the art cards from set boosters as proxies (for lands, etc) ? Im not sure because they feel thin enough.. any thoughts?
An issue about proxies came up in our playgroup where one of the players bought a proxy of a really expensive card. This made a lot of people in our playgroup pretty uncomfortable. I was personally ambivalent but I actually think they had a really reasonable reason and we ended up deciding against proxies. Our play group is made up of a lot of us who don't have very much money to spend on commander, this creates low power level games that most of us have learned to enjoy that is maintained by the fact we would have to spend money to raise power level. Proxies made people feel like unless they also made proxies they wouldn't be able to keep up with power, so that led to the decision we made.
I’m new to MTG ( 4 months in) and I’ve decided to Proxy my more valuable cards and keep the real ones in my binder. I’ve had maybe 2-3 people have a problem with it at my LGS but I showed them the binder and showed I actually. Owned the cards and they eased up on me.
Next time tell them to suck it!! And just find non douche bags to play with. Like the rest of us proxy users.
I used to be against using proxies myself but didn't mind others playing them as long as it's not their entire collection. Recently I have had all my cards stolen with my car and was subsequently in an hit and run that required a partial amputation and buying magic cards hasn't been something easy or a top priority, so now I use a few but only of cards I had stolen and cost waaaay to much for me to spend. A $5 or $10 card I can but much past that I can't afford right now
Shit that sounds rough, I’m sorry I hope you’re doing better and improving. I used to feel the same way about proxies, but when I started playing with a group whose power level was way out of my budget I became more comfortable. The main thing I don’t like having is low quality proxies that I feel make it harder on the other players and myself to know what a card is doing
@@devin5297 thank you, it's still challenging but I do play magic for the challenge so slowly but surely I'm getting there
Holy shit dude I am so sorry.
lol
@@mgarratt101 wow so edgy and cool
As a new subscriber to your content, I'm glad to see your positive thoughts on proxies. I have two EDH decks that are all proxies because they are themed on certain games I love, and I always have that rule 0 "Hey I have proxies" and 9/10 times the other players are like "Oh cool, what are you playing."
Offtopic question
What do you think about using sideboards and by extend the learn ability and wish effects in commander?
Have you guys done a poll about take-backs yet? I recently played with a new player who wanted to be strict about everything and not allow any take-backs. I’ve never come across a player like this in casual commander before.
Id have finished the game and then politely left that table. My old LGS was the same and I ended up making my own group. In general, a clarified group will always be better.
A couple per game is fine, as long as it's still your priority or the next person hasn't acted/responded yet. If someone has already started to respond/act, they get the final say in my playgroups. If it's gone a couple phases into the next players turn though and you missed an "each upkeep" trigger or something- take the L and treat it as a lesson to remember your triggers.
My general rule is if nobody else has put a spell or ability on the stack in response yet, and you haven't changed phases, then it's fine to re-tap your lands or re-order your cast sequence so you don't miss that Scry 1 trigger. You're not taking back a game losing action though.
When you're in Latin America or any other developing country, proxies are important to keep the community going. In my play group we play proxies as long as we know they are cards we plan on buying eventually, so we don't allow duals or things like that
Ik I'm necroing your comment but I believe 100% in proxying your staple lands, like fetches. Smooth mana makes better games as far as I'm concerned
Love you guys and your content. Keep up the great work.
With Hasbro’s latest business tactics and Magic products being what they are (looking at you magic 30) I expect we see much more proxying in the future.
I think it’s courteous to mention it and make sure people are okay with it before playing, but also I don’t think it’s a big deal if people don’t mention it. The only thing I actually care about is if the proxy is legible and reasonably represents the card.
My coworker and I both bought precons and had fun playing them, but I loved the idea of goblin/dragon tribal, and he enjoys Dinosaur tribal, so we both proxied tribal commander decks that otherwise would be $1000+ each and we enjoy playing against each other.
Especially since he doesn't want to spend $40+ on a card because he only plays commander with me
Thanks for the talk! I really always advocate for having those talks at the LGS. I've seen some people get uncomfortable but I think that goes along with what you think your power level is. I'll usually tell them there are combos or spicy cards but I'm not running extra truen or lock outs. The new info I really appreciated what about gold boarded cards. I run quite a few since I like the look and the older art. Could I easily get a Llanowar elves that wasn't gold boarded sure, but I like the flavor. I'll definitely add that to my pre game chat. Keep doing what you're doing.
You guys are a class act! Great video!
Rule Zero goes too quick and not specific enough for most games.
I want to know and I want to know why. My default thought is that proxies make their deck stronger. Because without the card it would be weaker. But that isn't necessarily a bad thing.
If we have better ideas of power level it solves the problem better than any specific worries about proxies.
play cedh and git gud
So I'm not on twitter but what the heck firestorm did Beezy start? How is that term offensive exactly?
It's not offense anywhere but on twitter. But everything is offensive there so who cares.
@@vicioushellsing yeah good point.
Just misused the word out
@@vicioushellsing indeed but if that is what happened it's very worrisome that they bend the knee to the woke Twitter mob. And it's even more worrisome and disappointing that NN would equate letting a bunch of mad sjw's trample over you with "becoming a force of good in the community"
I have a personal rule for myself, I don't put more than 10 proxies in a cmdr deck. I also like the art so I buy replica cards and I mark them with a sticker or cut the corners because I have no intention of selling them or trying to fool people. About half of my proxies are already cards I own. I'll play with anyone, proxy or not and I disclose before the game. Thanks for bringing it up guys!
Really cool approach ❤️
What a wholesome tidbit, made me smile :) also huge fan of Amber, love seeing her more and more in the videos. Keep up the good work
I'm okay with proxy, but I feel like proxies are a lot of the time the worst cards you don't want to see, for example, force of will. (Mostly because they are the most expensive)
Why are you bitching about FOW?!
People just end up playing all the same cards when they proxy. I personally think people should just use unique cards, but i never play at high power level
I enjoy adding vintage cards to my decks whenever possible, but some of my favorite cards run hundreds of dollars due to their age. Or in a handful of cases, they are slabbed. So in those cases, I am hesitant to use the card in play at my LGS. I also get paranoid when I go to the restroom, because someone could run of with my $1000+ commander deck. That’s why I want to use proxies.
Obviously the solution is the all slab edh deck
How do you determine your decks power level?
So we have one guy in our group that has decks that are all proxies except basics. How do we feel about that?
I normally say ok, but it irks me tbh. Magic is a collectible card game, which is central to its entire premise. Working to build up a collection is central to its appeal. I often use months of blood, sweat, and tears to put together an optimised deck, and it then sux to see a printerpaper cradle played across from me. I can’t recall ever having objected to proxies being played, and of course it’s none of my business how others feel, but the proxied cards do affect the work I put into my own decks, because then I might as well have not bothered in the first place, and just played ball pen basics instead. Cards have rarity and scarcity, and that’s the reason cracking a pack or obtaining a chase card is so special. I own one precious cradle, and that’s part of what makes playing it special. If everything was chaff, we’d lose that.
What if like 1 year getting into magic sure you collect cards because been playing and get cards for 20 years plus is that little unfair to the new player am just saying like cradle was probably $20 at one point when first came out so now you have a really good card you got on day 1 for $20 while I have paid $300+ just thinking
@@Dark-Pikachu1 Dude, please divide your sentences 😂 Anyway, you’re assuming a hypotetical scenario. I certainly haven’t been playing since the 90s, and saved up and paid top dollar for my cradle, but that’s irrelevant. When I started playing, working towards a bigger collection was part of the challenge. In edh you can build really strong, fun, and interactive decks for pennies, then upgrade as you expand your collection.
@@lthammox I would agree with you. Ten years ago, when I had 10-20k USD dollars of cards in my multiple modern decks, I won many local games just because I had better, more optimized decks against my opponent, of course. I also played the game hard and did a lot of research on strategies against different decks. The point is back then, PAY TO WIN was fine or more accepted than now (at least in the MTG community), and the game was thriving, so even with extremely high entry standards, there were still many new players getting into the competitive MTG every year. But now things have changed, people's opinions on PAY TO WIN have changed, MTG is more like a dying game then a growing game, and WOTCs' greed has been killing the player base; not many new players are willing to spend thousands of dollars to get into MTG anymore, that's when I started to consider if the extreme price helps the game, that's when I have discovered PTCG and realized you do not have to spend thousands of dollars for a deck(collectable card game to the point like MTG) to enjoy a card game, and it is more fun when you are playing against EVERYONE with a same power level of the deck as yours, that's when I realized how idiotic I was and how unfriendly MTG is to its player base, there is a reason why PTCG is a much much successful game than MTG even the playability is not even close and how greed could destroy a card game.
the "I disagree; I would not enjoy games more" choice could also mean "I wouldn't enjoy the game more or less if someone told me"
I just ordered a few proxies the other day because I have cards that I just don’t like the art on. I was nervous for awhile and put off getting the cards simply because I didn’t want to annoy someone with a proxy. I’ve only proxied cards I own, but I want to get a blightsteel for a deck. Any thoughts on if I should proxy it without owning it. Really don’t have the money rn for a blight and would rather not u know
I have a big question. I ordered cards for proxies that are fake because I really like the original artwork on them. But they came to me and look dang near identical to the real cards. Once in sleeves you’d probably never be able to tell. So here’s my question. What is the best way to mark these cards so they don’t get mistaken? My biggest fear is that someone end up stealing the cards and tries to resell them and tries to cheat people out of their money. I didn’t expect them to look/feel identical to the real cards. Just was looking for their artwork to be exact. Anyone have a good idea how I can do this without ruining the face of the card?
I'm cool with proxies up to a point. My group is a higher end casual group, we allow all proxies up to a hundred bucks. Any card over a hundred bucks can't be proxied for permanent use. We like the power lvl of our group and if u want to chase a super powerful card u need to pay for it. Most of the time proxies are temporary in our group anyway. We don't want to encourage a bloated power lvl where everyone feels they need to proxy to compete.
I really like the way you made the point about power level creep and feeling the need to proxy to compete.
People who have issues with proxies often have issues with the player they're playing vs trying to pubstomp, and that's not an issue of the proxy but an issue with the rule 0 discussion not being had. It's really no different than bringing a 9 to a table of 5s.
People need to care more about what the table is playing rather than how they acquire the cards
Amazing video guys :3
Can’t wait for my indirect birthday shoutout in October.
It’s right around the corner! 😂
I wish the entire world understood the assumption portion of this conversation. It’s literally the reason for most of the unnecessary hatred in the world.
It’s the “oh you’re one of them” ideas. There is no “them” with this stuff. It’s per individual how they feel.
With all that said, I gotta admit, I myself would have a difficult time being convinced that someone who doesn’t allow proxies isn’t an asshole.
A personal flaw, as you guys stated truthfully, we can’t assume anything and this is a valid opinion if it’s not elitism related.
But I would have a hard time believing someone’s intentions are nothing but good if they’re saying no to proxies. Like why? Just why?
Granted I'm yet to see a no proxy player who isn't an asshole about it. Exceptions exist but they've always acted like gatekeeping tossers when I've encountered them
So your saying we shouldn't make assumptions based on people opinions because it leads to unnecessary hatred unless someone disagrees with you in which case you will assume they are an asshole?
@@Whiplash47 that’s why I said “I admit” that I sometimes categorize things myself. Then gave the specific example of how I assume 9 times out of 10 that a “no proxy” player is an asshole.
My point is that no matter how neutral we think we are, we all have room for an improvement. But I see you jumped on the opportunity to soak in what you thought was a contradiction.
@@poofypeanut0221
Yes, then later in the comment you doubled down on how you still find it hard to believe someone can have good intentions when they say no to proxies. Ending by asking why comes across more like the "Prove Me Wrong" meme and not a genuine attempt to start a conversation..
It may not have been intentional but the comment did come across as pretty antagonistic That is why I responded as such.
@@Whiplash47 I think you’ve been on the internet too much today..
You Nerds are classy AF! Never be afraid to apologize; it shows a strong character.
Great job guys!
This is one of the few channels I'll listen to the proxy debate on. I've encountered so much downright negativity related to this that I normally pass on mentions of it. Great points, guys
When I sit down to play a game of commander I want to play commander and not "who has the bigger wallet" so yes proxies are completely fine.
Any argument against the use of proxies can either be boiled down to "b-but proxies inevitabely lead to an increase in powerlevel and thus lead to unbalanced games!"
Which isn't true because whether or not someone uses proxies doesn't have an impact on the ability of people being able to discuss the expected powerlevel before the game begins
Or
"B-but I spent $5000 on my deck. It's unfair if people don't spend any money on their deck!!" Just because you made dubious financial decisions doesn't mean that others have to do so as well. It's a GAME, specifically a format that people play FOR FUN
I feel as though you may not have watched the whole video. I’m personally in the boat of proxied cards being perfectly fine, but just let me know beforehand or blatantly specify when you play it what the card is. With so much going on in some games it just leads to more transparency as to what’s on the board. I might glance over a basic plains with text on it after a few turns if it wasn’t clear going in to it that it’s not in fact a basic plains. Communication is key as is the case with many things.
@@Dodexus I get what you're saying and I completely agree. Tho people being too lazy to actually put some work into their proxies (even just printing a black and white version on regular paper and sliding it into the sleeve) isn't really a problem with proxies. It's a problem with lazy people
@@Arisawa_Heavy_Ind well said, hope you have a good day/evening/night wherever you may be!
I've had discussions with a game store owner who thought that proxies would reduce the amount people would spend at the store. It turned out that having a place where anyone could go for any budget and play games for a night increased the sale of singles.
Libraries DON'T compete with bookstores. They fill different roles
That's a great analogy 👍
The more I see you guys, the more I like you. I haven't even played a game of commander in almost a year, but I still watch your show almost every day. I don't know what this issue on Twitter was about exactly, but it seems that you are handling it with a dignity that is admirable. Keep up the good work, and thank you for your contribution to the magic community, and the human community.
What a great video, well done, fellas.
The problem for me isn't proxies, it's the power level decks can gain if the players decide to use proxy of expensive cards, if it's just some niche card that the player couldn't find on a store near them go for it, if it's a card that hasn't been reprinted forever but not that powerful go for it. I always think "would I be mad about that deck if they used real cards instead of proxies?" if the answer is yes then the proxies aren't the problem here.
Then are you against reprints of powerful cards?
@@cablefeed3738 not at all, in fact reprint as much as possible to drive their prices down. Once everyone can get their hands on them the meta adapts.
Then play a different deck I have deck with all power levels
@@22freedom33 then why the problem with proxies of expensive cards?
@@cablefeed3738 it drives the power level too high since they aren't reprinted enough and so most players don't have access to them in a non-proxy way....
I do not mind proxies if we are just sitting around playing, but in a paid tourney at my local LGS or any place, proxies are not allowed. it is built into the base rules of Magic The gathering, the only legal proxies are ones judges make for you for specific reasons. Outside of paid events, go nuts, have fun, and enjoy the game.
I love the intro music. Another favorite CZcams channel of mine (mighty car mods) used the same music in their older videos!
My half sister was just born today so on her behalf, I say thank you for the happy birthday wishes!
Anything that gives a middle finger to the billion dollar company that is Hasbro, is a plus in my mind. So long as all the other players in the game are fine with it.
You sound like a baby
@@entertainmentinc9735 how does that boot taste
@@entertainmentinc9735 bravo very constructive. What a low IQ response. Must be proud
@@indrafides2648 you say I have a low IQ but the original comment is just as bad as mine. Encouraging a behavior (proxies) just because it would hurt someone with more money then you is very low and nonsensical.
There’s a trend on hating big businesses just because they became successful.
@@entertainmentinc9735 danm my man it seems theirs something brown on your nose might want to get it looked at. Acting like if you care about a multi million dollar industry their gonna care just as much
It depends on the cost of the card they'd proxy, I think. Proxying a gaia's cradle at a table where no one plays a card over 50 dollars is a no for me.
I'd say the problem is the card and not the proxy, because I would have the same complaint if the card was legit.
@@AspavientosPC exactly!!!!!!!
That's a problem with the player, not the proxy. If somebody is bringing a cradle to a budget table, then you need to reconsider who you're playing with
That's a power level issue, not a proxy issue. The same would be true for a real copy of cradle. Proxies don't affect the problem.
I lost to precons with tithe out cards doesn’t matter
Never thought I cared about a proxy until I saw your cyclonic rift on the thumbnail Lmao!!!
Great show again guys, thanks for always bringing good content for the community!
what do you do if you say you're running proxies, and an opponent wants to know which proxies they were? do you think you owe a list of each and every proxy in a deck, maybe just the total number of proxies, or just the existence of proxies in a deck? i can't understand why people are ok with one or two proxies, but not 10, or a whole deck?
to me it all boils down to elitism, gatekeeping, and counting other people's money. if one is ok, they're all ok (assuming they are legal in the format)
Proxies make the game better. Among the multiple reasons that make them awesome, the most useful one for me is that it helps get new people into the game. My buds who play WS got into EDH because they just proxied all their cards and ended up loving mtg. We basically follow this rule - if it’s more than 5$ then we proxy it since what’s gonna happen? Some judge comes over and says “swap out that proxy for a basic land” in a casual game?
The first question I always ask is if players are running proxies. even before I ask about power level.
If I know the player, then it's case by case. If I don't know them, the answer is no unless they can prove they own the card.
But why though?
Extrapolation seems necessary in this case.
@Josh Field Been lied to too many times.
@@ShawnWilsonPrime That's fair, but I meant why disallow proxies if they don't own the card? How do you see them as having a negative impact on your play experience? I'm genuinely curious.
someone you don't know has to "prove" something to you? say that out loud and think on it.
@Josh Field because most of the time, its power cards, or the entire combo. If somone proxies in acidic slime. no big, but when people proxy in a few grand worth of power circumventing the normal scarcity that keeps some Indian cards rare in the format. that makes sense.
I'm thinking of proxying up that Yarok deck tech you posted for this weekends commander game 🤔🤔
My first playgroup used to handle proxies with the understanding that proxies were for testing a deck you came up with and were ready to buy cards. It was a way to actually see if it would play like you wanted it to. You were also allowed to proxy cards outside your deckbuilding budget. It was to let those of us with a tight budget to be able to play against the person with slivers or eldrazis without having a large power level difference.
I think proxies are something that doesn't need to be talked about, as they literally change nothing to the game, unlike silver border banned cars and custom commanders. Which are all fine if you state it as long as you can tell what the card does or prove it if it doesn't have any text or is in another language. You can play against a person who has been playing since beta, and they have a cradle in every green deck or a whale that puts every single fetch duals and shocks in every single deck, and if you wanted to do that to your decks it's possible with proxies. Games are meant to be played, and the more people play the more fun, more people to talk to more different decks to play against and more people can enjoy the hobby.
I feel that it’s extremely classist to be upset that someone is running proxies. The problem I have is when people try to play cEDH in a casual game. Proxies are awesome imbalanced games aren’t.
The good take
Man, I just spent an entire day making my own cards in card conjurer and you decide to make a video about these
I bought one mana crypt and I only want one real copy unless I somehow pull another one. So I have 2 proxies of it in other decks. Proxies are great to test cards before you buy. They’re great if you are missing certain cards that are unaffordable/unobtainable. The harsh truth is: everything costs money and the real world is expensive. And besides, I don’t see myself purchasing a $600+ Mox diamond anytime soon. I made my own limit to 5 proxies per deck just to remain respectful . Love the game and enjoy it with others. You’re playing with trading cards not each other’s their wallets.
Nailed it on head, Joe & Beezy! Keep up the great work!
Proxy 1 proxy none proxy em all. Ill never understand why people have an issue with proxies in edh.
This video is such a serious discussion.
I'm surprised.
Commander is a casual format.
No proxies is a completely hyper competitive mindset to me.
It’s the opposite. Considering that you can build a very powerful deck for $50 or even $25, there’s absolutely no reason to proxy UNLESS you want to be competitive.
Are gold border or CE cards considered proxies?
How I proxy:
1) if I've brewed a deck but am waiting for the final handful of singles to arrive, or for trades to come through, I might proxy what I'm missing in the meantime
2) if I want to try out a card or two that isn't trivial to purchase, I might proxy them until I've made up my mind
3) I'm considering proxying a cEDH deck or two. I want to be able to participate without worrying about the insane budget restricting choice
4) I always print a copy of the card on paper and put it in a sleeve over another card (usually a basic, or a placeholder for a double faced card) so it's really clear
5) except for the first case above, I would always mention that I'm using proxies in the pre-game chat, and I often would even do this for the first case (I might not bother if I'm just proxying one card)
I am absolutely fine with proxies as long as they are clear. If someone is writing text onto a basic then that isn't very clear, but if it's a total staple that might be fine, like those versions of staples that are printed without rules text, or any basic land! But really I would like to be able to ask to see the card and read it on the table without having to look it up.
I play regularly with people who proxy individual cards and those who proxy entire decks. I don't mind at all, as long as I can read it!
If someone is proxying in an unclear way I'd definitely prefer they ask in the pre-game chat. I'd probably be OK with it though. If they're proxying with clear reproductions then honestly I don't even need to know in advance!
Totally agree about separating power level and proxies. If someone is proxying to increase their power level then that's fine (with clear proxies!) but I'd want to know the power level before the game starts!
For me, I think it depends on the power level of the card itself. If it's a very high powered card, I think itd be not ok, but if it's like a sol ring or something, then it'd be ok
Would your reaction to that card be the same if it was real?
@@swampyswamperton6536 I'd be ok if it were real
@James Black no
Only card worth owning is me. Everything else can be proxied.
Fact.
LOL
BOOOOO!!!!! We use to proxy Sun Titan!
You guys put out some decent content. Thank you. The play through videos are nice. I would like to see some of your budget or upgraded decks run too. Kinda here is the upgrade video.. and now here is the play through..
Just a thought. You could tie 4 decks together in video
Well articulated video as always guys. Thanks for the discussion! (P.S. : I also save spiders/critters)
I personally fundamentally disagree with the statement "disclosing proxies will be positive for the format" because proxies not being normalised, and anything that gets in the way of it, can only be negative in my opinion. Proxies are the solution to most of the communities problems. Normalisation of proxies helps people get into the community, we should be encouraging it, not "making them disclose" so they are at the whims of gate keepers.
"You should disclose if you're {insert identity here} when enjoying {insert hobby here}" doesn't improve the hobby, it just opens up the person who's {insert identity here} to intense criticism, maybe even hateful words.
I don't want to basically say "I'm poor" to a group of people, that's very exposing just as I don't want to say "I'm bisexual" to a group of people, that's very exposing. It doesn't affect the game at all.
Sure people have a "right to take their ball and go home" but if you're that pressed by proxies, you should take the initiative, remove yourself from the situation rather than expecting others to remove themselves for an action that doesn't negatively impact the game.
TL;DR Proxy discussions can ONLY be negative for the proxy player, they cannot be positive for anyone except exclusionary groups (which is what anti-proxy people are, by definition they are exclusionary)
Thanks for using way more words than I did in my comment to properly express your(and my)position.
I have over 600 proxies at this point that I printed from MPC, they look identical to "real" cards, in fact the quality of the cardstock is even better. Our group is 100% pro-proxy and support each other keep our own money and not wasting it on acquiring game pieces.
Card looking 100% real is muddy waters but we do support proxying as well
@@NitpickingNerds I was careful to have the backside printed with the words "Proxy Not for Resale" in caps. The 100% real is only to ensure my proxies do not detract from the in-game look/appearance. They look like MTG cards, they don't distract or confuse, and they *also* could never be sold or confused with real Magic cards during a sale or trade.
@@NitpickingNerds there is no such thing as 100% real looking with MPC. They force you to choose a fake back for the cards and to erase all legal text in the front. The commenter's exaggerating.
@@PraetorGix which I've already stated very clearly
Proxies are absolutely great. Ppl that can't afford certain cards finally can play with them. I will always be fine with it and I do agree you should mention if you've proxied fast mana and combo based cards. Just gives a heads up
How do you guys feel about keeping a staples binder full of common cards ( chrom mox, mana crypt, force of will etc.) That are real and then running the proxy in your deck. That way if at any point you could theoretically move the real card in with a few minutes time but don't have to degrade your card quality when playing not tournament games?