The Lapsed Fan: Dave Meltzer on WrestleMania 17
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- čas přidán 10. 07. 2024
- As part of The Lapsed Fan's 30-week WrestleMania journey, the Wrestling Observer's Dave Meltzer weighed in with his recollections of each event. Here, Meltzer discusses WrestleMania 17 in 2001.
Follow The Lapsed Fan on Twitter @thelapsedfan
I'll never understand why Flair showed up on Raw literally the night after the Alliance died. If you can manage to get him, make sure you have him for the Invasion
the death of wcw/ecw , wrestling died long live monday night wars 1995-2001
I swear if wrestlemania 17 was at a bigger arena it really could’ve had more then 100k fans
I would’ve loved to see a Wrestlemania at the Rose Bowl in Pasadena during this era, that would’ve been a spectacle
God damn I'm a mark....someone asked me what I was listening to and I actually had to lie
I swear if they would’ve put Austin and Bill in the same ring during that invasion angle and had a brawl my god the money would’ve been raining on wwe
That's exactly what Dave said!
Well trying to turn Austin heel in TEXAS was never going to come off as successfully as they hoped...Austin could have slapped Rock's mother that night and still got cheered.
I don't think the Austin heel turn would have ever worked regardless, but with that said the WWE went about it in the worst possible way. Let's throw out the fact that they shouldn't have tried to turn Austin in Texas, but besides that they still fucked it up. If they were hell bent on Austin turning at Mania it should have been done differently. First off McMahon should have came to ring side in a suit. I know that sounds petty and stupid, but the Austin/McMahon rivarly was centered around Vince being the boss and wanting Austin to be corporate. Having Vince come out in street clothes just didn't seem like the McMahon that Austin hated for all those years. Also they shouldn't have had Austin use the chair like he did. Any time a wrestler beats the hell out of somebody with a chair it gets a pop, and that's what Austin did. It made Austin look like a total badass that would do anything to win the belt and since it was no dq it was all legal(the no dq thing was another issue with it), wrestling fans don't boo that. What they needed to do was have it be a regular match and have Vince come down(in a suit) when The Rock has the upper hand. They needed it to look like The Rock had Austin beat and the only way Austin could win was with a corporate Vince McMahon screwing The Rock. Maybe have McMahon drill Rock with a chair after a Rock Bottom, then throwing Austin on him for the pin. They just had to make Austin look weak coming out of it, that's how you get heel heat. Instead they just let Austin beat the hell out of the Rock with a chair in a no dq match, that isn't going to draw any heat regardless who it is. Fans of that era are going to cheer for it just like they did.
Anyway sorry for the long rant, those are just some things that always bothered me.
Matt Combs No need for the apology Matt, I think that you explained the issue pretty well, Heel turns are a tough thing to do these days depending on the person you are doing it with.
I don't think any of that matters. I the crowd aren't ready for Austin to be heel they aren't going to accept it regardless
I saw this on ppv and my mouth dropped open when Austin and Vince shook hands
StoneKold10x lol same. My exact reaction watching my first wrestlemania live. Had day off school next day as I watched at 1am in uk.
Mine too. I was stunned.
Saw it that night too...biggest shock ever.
I did as well- and it literally turned me off from the product for nearly 2 decades. It was such a stupid idea, even as a 13 year old I thought “this is desperate, these guys are out of ideas.” Didn’t care about watching Raw the next night, didn’t care about seeing how any of it worked out after.
To be fair, I was already heading in that direction before Mania anyway, but still: it was the Austin heel turn that pushed me away.
I also agree them making stone cold the leader of wcw was dumb
Love the new to me content
It's interesting how the greatest PPV WWF ever did had the most disappointing end I've ever seen.
Greatest wrestling pay-per-view ever staged. Regarding the Austin heel turn, the biggest problem of all was that The Rock immediately went to Hollywood, suddenly leaving the WWF without an absolute top babyface to cheer. Stone Cold says that he nearly stunned Vince after the handshake, I think one other possibility would have been for Austin to win with a little bit of controversy; towards the end of the match, Earl Hebner inadvertently gets knocked down, The Rock hits a Rock Bottom but gets no count, revives the ref, walks into a low blow and Stunner. Either would have given Stone Cold a little bit of a renewed edge, WITHOUT turning him heel.
It is funny because AEW has stepped up. Not Monday Night Wars level, but we have an alternative for main guys to go, which resulted in the betterment of WWE as well.
Today's pro wrestling cannot compare. It was so entertaining back then
Turning heel wasnt the problem . It was the way they did it that was the problem
Nope. Wrong. Turning him heel was a stupid idea.
Are there any plans to do something like this to celebrate the 30th anniversaries of SummerSlam Survivor Series and the Royal Rumble?
The stone cold storyline makes alot of cents when you have to consider austins injurys where haunting his career...so in order to prolong his sucess he turned...it made since as a story but maybe the execution didnt?...
It doesn't matter if it makes sense if you do it at the completely wrong time like they did.
That's not why they did it at all though so it doesn't make sense
It makes sense character wise when Austin was gone Triple H and The Rock were the two top guys in his absence so he wins the royal rumble but... he lost to triple h at no way out “I NEED to beat you Rock I need it more than you can imagine” and at mania he threw everything at Rock pulled out moves he hasn’t in years but Rock kept kicking out so in order to get back on top he had to make a deal with the devil (mr McMahon)
@@ryankeefe6222 In 2001 , HHH got injured & he was gone for whole year
I agree. Watching raw seemed a let down after wcw ended.
They were slowly building him as a heel for a few months even when he was still a babyface. Watch the end of the royal rumble that year and instead of stunner - clothesline - elimination its stunner - chair shot - chair shot- chair shot- clothesline - elimination. Then he lost to HHH at 3 stages of hell match. It was like they were showing SCSA could no longer win without cheating.
Within the context of that Rumble oh, the final elimination was Kane and Kane had dominated that Rumble like no one else ever had before.
Then he put Triple H over because the preliminary idea what's to do face Triple H versus heel stone cold at the following WrestleMania.
The question I have always had is who the fuck smoked Steve Austin on the top of the head with a full can of beer at the end of that three stages of Hell match when they were laying down selling?
In 2024 now we have AEW
One of the greatest pay-per-views ever, if not THE greatest. For all of the Attitude era's brilliance, its first three Manias had been relatively underwhelming. WWF put that right at X7. As for Austin's heel turn...well, actually I've always understood why they did it, Austin had already done just about everything that his anti-hero champion character could do in '98-'99.
Business wise it didn't make sense though. Maybe in another year or 2 you turn Steve but not then. He had just come off neck surgery and the fans wanted to see him win & go on another run. The heel run made no sense, he teams up with McMahon (who fucked him so many ways from 97-00) and then teams up with the guy that ran him down? (HHH) Why? Why would Austin ever do that? It was just completely outta character and he's admitted this in following years.
Austin should've beaten Rock and then had a program with HHH with Steve going over. Afterwards he could've feuded with a heel Rock or feuded with a heel Taker (who turned heel later in 01 anyways) They could've handled 2001 so much better but just shit it down the toilet. Also it made no sense for him to be the leader of the Alliance after he was fired by WCW and pretty much was responsible for WWF winning the Monday Night Wars.
I disagree that WM14 was underwhelming. That was the second best WM of the Attitude Era behind WM17.
@@TruthDissident naw, we just had a HHH feud with Austin. Taker turned heel later but that wasn't going to happen right after beating HHH at WM. Angle would've been a better choice. I have no real issue with the heel turn outside of working with McMahon to that degree. Like Austin said, he should've Stunned Vince after he helped him win
This why Vince never turn his top baby faces heel again. This why Cena or Reigns never turn heel. Austin turning heel was the worst thing ever done. If had do it again should had Austin turn heel on RVD the young upstart that been money.
How much money did WM 17 pull in?
Austin Austin Austin!!!!!
i can see why ppl say thts when the attitude era died..things def went downhill from there but as a kid things were still great untill SSeries 01..afer that ppv thts when everything died..WM18 shouldve been the best mania of all time
Actually Survivor Series 01 was super underwhelming considering what it could've been. Imagine if the invasion had lasted for 6 months and they had brought in Flair, Hogan, Hall, Nash, Sting, Goldberg. Would've been the greatest angle ever in wrestling history but ended up being the biggest flop. Wrestlemania 17 was the death knell for wrestling in many ways.
im speaking for me personally..obviously the invasion angle shouldve been bigger but as a kid i still enjoyed it..even now i enjoy it especially compared to these days..hey at least it happened..unlike sting/taker
This is one of the big problems with WWE's philosophy and it seems they still have not learned. They're making tons of money but their TV is not doing well and that needs to turn around or the company will start suffering. They build around one or maybe two guys. It was not long after this that HHH was injured. Rock couldn't come back and they suffered. Instead of elevating Jericho, Angle, and Benoit like they should have they half-assed it and suffered for it. If Jericho, as over as he was, were built up to true main event status he could have come close to filling Rock's spot. And then if Angle had been elevated all the way he could have rounded it out. Then Benoit could have been the guy chasing that position and the fans would have rooted for him to get to the level of those others. Jericho vs. Hunter (Not being buried by Hunter) could have done the job for Y2J and then once he's established Jericho vs Benoit could have elevated him too. Then put Show and Kane back into the title picture, maybe some kind of program with Taker, and you've got a good main event roster. What would have happened if Austin had been injured again? HHH and Rock were both gone. They'd have been screwed and it was a little to early to elevate Edge and Eddie. RVD could have gone right into the main events too and then Booker T and DDP could have been the anchor stars on the WCW side if they couldn't get Nash, Sting, and Goldberg. But they needed more main event stars. One of the reasons that Invasion thing failed (other than the blatant sabotage) was there were only a couple of guys who were at that level. Now they're doing the same thing. They. Need. More. Stars. You must be able to compensate for a couple of top guys going out if that happens. I can think of a number of times they've been screwed by that. Austin is a good example. You need guys to fill those positions if need be. There is no good reason Jericho, Kane, Benoit, and Big Show were not in the main event picture either at that point or soon after.
+Hezekiah Ramirez I completely agree with you, with Cena, Orton, Rollins, Bryan, and Cesaro out injured, they need to build up some new top guys to take the place of the major top guys when they are out with injuries (or taking time out for personal reasons), they are trying to build up Reigns but they are doing it the wrong way.
Hezekiah Ramirez you know at the backlash ppv main event tag match with power trip, it bombed, or so he thought at that estimated time. vince panicked which is why he decided to get Jericho n Benoit to win tag titles on raw.
Now days he's patient n complacent. I honestly think he's lost it he would have jokes and all but he would never name a ppv great balls of fire back then.
@@anthony10antoniou it didn't bomb. Benoit got hurt so they couldn't move forward with the angle. Just bad luck with their top of the card
Wrestling ended at this Wrestlemania imo, I wish I had stopped watching after it.
Man i was a big THE ROCK fan when he was heel...oddly as he became a fan favorite i began to hate the rock...when they did the THIS IS YOUR LIFE segment, i was the one weirdo watching nitro...loved nitro..
8:11 The audience adored The Rock. He was only booed that night because they were in Texas. Turning Rock heel makes no sense because he was going away after this show. I still maintain that Austins turn was a great idea. The issue was always that he had no one to work with.
...But was Austin/Goldberg such a dream match simply because they were both bald with black trunks & boots?
arpegio88 just shut up dude,no one gives A fuck about what you got to say.
bonzii420 well then same to you...Hell you don't know me so Don't come at me like that, what gives you that right?...absolutely nothing!
Probably because they were the 2 biggest draws of the last 90s idk
You're such a fucken moron
Well if that's true then what does that make you for responding to my "moronic" comment?
Lol when were they booing Rock other than in Texas? He was definitely more over in road to WM
Austin was fantastic as a heel much better than a face
lol what
He even agreed he did his best in ring work in 01. I have no problem with his turn outside of it being in Texas
@@STB002 😒That's not the same as him saying his heel run was better than his face
@Chris Terry His 96-97 run was solid but then again that's what got him over.
@@blueblur2329 *blank face*
I coukdnt disagree more...austin needed to turn... it worked out bad vecause of the crappy invasion and WHAT....
Dave: they booed the rock.....ummm what broadcast were you watching...yeah some boos but that was in austins backyard in texas. Seriously dave rock needed to turn? I remember the sky dome being sold out next year with rock n hogan not fighting for the belt. Rock should have fought hogan for the belt at 18 not a crappy hhh jericho program that no one cared for
That's because by 18 Rock didn't cool down with a dumb move. Once Austin turned heel it turned a lot of people off of wrestling.
@@22srs22 not really, most WCW fans were already turned off after WCW went out business, some came back and after they did wrongly the invasion angle, most people went away, also the wrestling was over after Wrestlemania
@@abdouibrahimdaher3894 most WCW fans were already ran off or changed the channel by then.
@@22srs22 tbf some expected WWF will do something for the invasion while bringing their top stars and after how it turned it turned a lot of them off forever
Wow never knew so much negativity can be said about one of the better ppv's in history. Just goes to show how negative internet critics can be.
AGE of Ambrose WM 17 was overrated as fuck, Wrestlemania III is not only The Greatest Wrestlemania of all time (which it is) it is not only The Greatest WWF/E PPV of all time but WMIII The Greatest PROFESSIONAL WRSTLING EVENT OF ALL TIME!!!!!
romans52345 Haha you have got to be kidding. Savage/ Sreamboat was obviously a classic. Hogan/ Andrew was a spectacle but nowhere near a good match. The ppv didn't have much else. Compare that to Austin/ Rock, TLC, Taker/HHH, Angle/ Benoit and even the Mcmahon match. No way does WM 3 compare. I hope you are joking though.
AGE of Ambrose I am totally not, 2007 was the 20th anniversary of WMIII the WWE Released a 20TH anniversary DVD of WMIII, you will never see that for WM17 because it just never had near the impact on wrestling that WMIII had and Hogan/Andre was the match of WMIII not Savage/Steamboat. it is not about match quality..No 1 Pro Wrestling event in history had the impact and mean more than Wrestlemania III
AGE of Ambrose They aren't being negative about the show, they are talking about the negativity about the aftermath of the event and the effect that it had on the business. Wrestlemania 17 is without question one of/ if not the best Wrestlemanias of all time.
+romans52345 this is a myth, and honestly, it sounds like you ripped your opinion straight from Al Snow verbatim. WM3 was not Hogan's coming out party, WM1 was. Andre didn't make Hogan, though he did cement him, it was Mr T, Cindi Lauper and Roddy Piper who got Hogan to cross over. WWE may act like it was WM3, just like they like to pretend that they put 93k in the Silverdome. WM17 was a huge paradigm shift-- in just a couple weeks, all culminating at 17, WCW and ECW went under, and the top drawing feud in all of history (Austin/Vince) came to a close. WM17 was the death of the Monday Night Wars, the end of the Attitude Era, and the dawn of a new era in wrestling. How exactly is WM3 more important? Just because WWE says it is? The only reason they don't put WM17 over more is because they don't like to talk about Austin's heel run, or the awful invasion angle. If I'm missing something please say so.
Meltzer has been wrong about 90% off the time
Check out the Wrestling Observer Live episodes from early 2001. He got 99% right months in advance.