The Lapsed Fan: Dave Meltzer on The Montreal Screwjob, 20 Years Later
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- čas přidán 30. 07. 2024
- The Wrestling Observer's Dave Meltzer joins The Lapsed Fan podcast to reflect on the Montreal Screwjob 20 years after the 1997 WWF Survivor Series, and what it taught us about Bret Hart, Vince McMahon, Shawn Micheals, professional wrestling, and more.
Check out The Lapsed Fan's exhaustive history of the Montreal Screwjob, from all perspectives:
- "Wrestling With Shadows: A Review"
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- A Full Accounting of Fan and Wrestler Reaction to Montreal (Pt. 1)
/ tlf-emails-montreal
- A Full Accounting of Fan and Wrestler Reaction to Montreal (Pt. 2)
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- Prelude to Montreal, The Complete History of the Screwjob (Pt. 1)
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- Prelude to Montreal, The Complete History of the Screwjob (Pt. 2)
/ ep-144-the-prelude-to-...
- Prelude to Montreal, The Complete History of the Screwjob (Pt. 3)
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- The Deep Dive: The 1997 WWF Survivor Series, featuring comments from Dave Meltzer and Bret Hart
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Follow The Lapsed Fan - thelapsedfan
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And 2 years after this interview we finally found out the guy who suggested the finish that Dave said here he coudnt say was in fact Jim Cornette.
Wearing this with earbuds, my left and right ear are sharing happiness at different times.
Ugh. The background noise in the left is so distracting.
Me too
It’s quite annoying.
Only one of my earbuds work so this is a lost cause for me lol #toocheapfornewones
Had to change my audio setting to mono.
Pretty sure Shamrock was Dave's dinner guest in San Jose and Jim Cornette was the one who came up with the double cross where Shawn could have plausible deniability. However, JC did not actually want to screw Bret. Vince just asked how it could happen.
Been a fan of wrestling for over 25 years and Bret is by far my favourite wrestler vince never needed to screw Bret over he had a month left on his contract Bret forfeiting the belt the next day was just a suggestion Shawn was a piece of shit
I love that Dave and the Co-chairs have so much mutual respect for each other. Iron sharpens iron. I do wish Dave could have contributed to the AWA Journey though. Maybe on the inevitable WCCW Journey? Fuck Bruce Hart.
Lol The Montreal Screw Job: A time when The World Heavyweight Championship actually meant something! The title was so important that the company would legitimately "screw" one wrestler out of the title!
Nowadays, no one would give a F*** to do anything remotely like that!
Always loved Bret Hart. Definitely the best IMO.
Hes the best as far as I'm concerned.
@@LeoWhalen1933 I noticed your surname. Are you related to Ed?
@@pbanik you know Eddie????
@@ammagnolia I didn't know him personally. Unfortunately he passed on, but he's a unforgettable character as a biased interviewer favoring babyfaces.
I love The Lapsed Fan!
Vince says Shawn did a “brave thing” by going out there in Montreal, but Shawn was also the cause of the whole problem to begin with. Way to go, Pilled-Out Kid Shawn Michaels
The audio levels on this are out of control.
It was jim Cornette who came up with the sharpeshooter doublecross scenario!
You got fooked mistah hitman and I'm fooked anvil ran off with me crahck
If ye poot s in fron o' hitmahn, you get muh exact opinion of Bret Hart...
Still love this whole story
24:30 Dave is referencing Jim Cornette. He came up with the finish, and why the pin fast count wouldn’t work.
That's right
Best interview Meltzer has done
The night after Survivor Series. WCW with glee announced that Bret Hart didn't "really" lose the WWF title and celebrated him coming to WCW on Nitro. Complete with full in ring segments and Canadian flag waving. There was not going to be a friendly Bischoff agreement.
Because of what happened the previous night..
The reason that people are drawn to wrestling when real things happen is just that fact....people want to believe it's real even when deep down they know it's not. You would think that Vince would realize this and make his product more realistic and go back to a kay fabe style of business. Get away from cartoon bullshit and make wrestling great again. This is why Vince McMahon needs to go away and retire so WWE can go back to WRESTLING and get rid of sports entertainment.
One correction, when Bret went back for head to head with Impact, it was the Samoa Joe/Kurt Angle first face off.
people give Vince becoming an evil character just because of the screw job, way too much credit.. NWO???? HELLLO??? Eric bischoff played the heel role of the leader in the company before Vince did it.. Vince was going to become a heel regardless of the screw job because of the mass success WCW was having with that setup at the time... I swear, most people who speak on shit like this from the past don't factor in everything
Michael Angst Excellent point. But the question remains.... Was Bret in on the work of screw job? I will say if he was, he is the best actor in the world
good video
The guy who Dave mentions in the interview where he went out to dinner with in San Jose was Ken Shamrock.
That was my first thought. Did you find proof of this somewhere?
Occidental Savage nah, just intuition
Occidental Savage Bret said so in the Bret shawn rival dvd
goodvideo
Good comment.
After what he did to Bulldog, Bret was well within his rights not wanting anything to do with losing to Shawn, since he disrespected the whole Hart family that night just because he didn't want to drop a secondary title. If I were Bret, I would have refused to work with him period since Shawn spent all of 97 insulting Bret and his family both in ring and outside of it. Bret should have just sit home, relinquishing the title waiting for his contract to end
I agree that he should’ve done that but he did not want to deprive the Canadian fans in Montreal their main event match.
Here's why it's a work:
1. I was a teen in the mid 90s, if you didn't watch WWF at the time you had no idea who Bret Hart or HBK was.
2. Since Bret would be unknown to most people it's very odd a documentarian would decide to follow him around. Who greenlit that?
3. What was the documentary going to be about originally? Just following Captain Boring around? How convenient that there was about to be a bidding war in which we never actually hear what VKM or EB actually said. We only have what Bret tells us.
4. It's even more unbelievable that as a result of this bidding war, new contract for Bret, cancellation of that contract with Bret, and WCW signing, that it all leads up to the screwjob and VKM doesn't once think to handle this quietly? Once Bret signed you have him lose the title the next month period. Let him sue you he'd lose it'd be easy to argue in court.
5. VKM forgot to speak to Kevin Dunn about it? He could have rang the bell and cut to literally anything else even a fake transmission error. Yet instead we are to believe that VKM is so forgetful and Dunn so inept that they not only focus on Bret finger singing "WCW", spitting on Vince, and zooming in to get all the angry face closeups?
6. How lucky for the documentary team to also get to be ringside as well and get access to the WWF library to cut their film including the shots from Survivor Series PPV transmission
7. Undertaker and his BSK guys never once thought to force the documentary team to leave? Camera work of that quality in 1997 was not handled with a hidden camera.
8. As EB has stated WCW was just trying to buy up VKMs toys whether they were worth it or not. Hart cashed in all while there was never any evidence he was actually worth what they paid before or after WCW. In other words Hart got to cash in while his better years were behind him creatively and physically anyways.
9. Hart's in ring character would not work in the SCSA dominated part of the Attitude era. He makes it clear in the documentary he did not like the bawdy tone WWF was stooping to. WCW was the more family friendly product even in the Russo years.
10. HBK character would not work in a SCSA dominated Attitude era either. Tyson comes in January 11th, before HBK's back injury, and is set as an Austin enemy immediately. Implying HBK/Tyson would screw SCSA, further implying HBK was such a pussy he needed Mike Tyson to win because no one believed SCSA wouldn't destroy HBK in that time. Tyson's down the line officiating in the match and later betrayal of HBK post match shows Austin did not need Tyson but allows Tyson to not be a bad guy who sides with the fruity ear ring wearing male stripper.
11. 9 and 10 mean VKM being the heel was set into motion long before WM or RR and Austin had stunned VKM the first time back Sept 22 1997 while Bret was still there. In other words, VKM is not a heel made by accident and through fan perception of the screwjob. He was going to become the heel regardless
12. VKM allowed Bret to destroy various things from TVs and cameras without so much as asking for a dime back and again cameras were kept rolling.
13. The documentary team was allegedly sued but agreed to not go to court as long as they didn't allow Turner near it. Who in their right mind, in 1997, would think Ted Turner's legal team couldn't kick WWF's legal team and expedite the process? If Turner wanted to they could have aired the documentary on their network, bypassing WWF jamming up the film's release, and still have won the court battle
14. The 3rd generation son of a promoter does not need a never was like Cornette or a rip off Springer writer like Russo to tell him how to do a screwjob. Obviously this would be a conversation that would come up in training your son to take over to begin with.
15. If the Screwjob was for real it failed in saving face for HBK and adding legitimacy to his championship which would be self evident unless you had planned a believable cut away.
16. They had more than enough security to make a wrestler go back stage and stop acting like a child throwing a tantrum. Also what sane individual screws someone and stands next to them while they throw a hissy fit?
17. Everyone says the punch Bret delivers was an uppercut including Bret and Bruce Pritchard. Yet VKM was a black eye? Since when does a uppercut give you a black eye?
18. Why wasn't VKM doing commentary that night? If you want to screw someone it's a lot easier to do it when you are right next to the bell ringer AND you can craft the story as the play by play man.
19. No one actually lost in the process: Bret Hart went on to be the 2nd highest paid guy at WCW, HBK got paid for 4 years to not wrestle and barely appear on camera, VKM became the new super villian ripping off EB, SCSA/Rock/Mankind can all thank their face runs to HBK/Hart being gone.
20. Whether you hate HBK or not if you are about to make as almost as much as Hulk Hogan, which is unbelievable when considering Bret's drawing power, who cares how you leave WWF? Plus HBK was already a heel cheating was expected. A ref back turn, HHH conking you on the head, and a HBK pin roll up still makes you the Canadian hero.
Montreal was a work and I am betting in the next 10-20 years we'll hear the truth. It may even be with the death of VKM.
How long did it take for you to type all this out?
I agree though. If you didn’t watch wrestling, you had no idea who they were.
I knew the moment I saw it that they double crossed Bret. I remember trying to convince myself at that moment that it wasn't a double cross because as a die-hard WWF fan, I didn't want to believe what I saw, but I knew what I saw. Back then I had no internet yet...there was no way to know until I got my Pro Wrestling Torch the following Friday that it was indeed, a full-blown double cross. I was mad as hell...then I realized I was a 22 year old grown adult and why did I care so much? lolI worked on the Indy scene back then, and I remember hearing about double crosses from the "old timers" like Bill Eadie and King Kong Bundy. Shane Douglas, who I knew back then, insisted the whole Montreal Screw job was a work. I haven't seen or talked to Shane since around 2000. I wonder if he still thinks it was a work?
Lol @ a work. If that was true, it's far too good of a storyline to be a work! The WWE has never planned another story line that is this intrinsic!
These dummies couldn't come up with that(a work)
Vince did something similar years earlier with the MSG Screwjob, or Madison Square Garden screwjob with the Spider Lady (who was really The Fabulous Moolah, whose real name was Lillian Ellison I think) taking the title off Wendi Richter, and I don't think Richter ever wrestled again. Richter wanted to get paid more, similar to Hogan, which caused her to lose the title, without being informed in advance of the match she was going to lose the title, or that The Spider Lady was Moolah.
@@pbanik I'm very aware lol. I heard the boys talk about it many times.
@@troyelich9307 That's why I don't think it's a work, plus Bret said in an interview he said he wished it was a work, and discussed it in his book. How many angles last over a decade in pro wrestling? Why would it take Bret to patch up things with Vince and Shawn as long as it did if it was a work? That just doesn't make sense. Honky Tonk Man has a theory that Vince is the reason Shawn became a prick, because Shawn was a decent person at one time. I am not convinced Shawn has done a complete turnaround, even though he seems to be better than he used to be.
Fix the audio!!!
It would have been embarrassing , but bret showing up on nitro with the title wouldn't have been the end of the company. If anything, the wwf fans would have hated BRET. The Rock , Austin dx , and mick would have still gotten over and won. it would have had he same effect as when madusa did it- which was nothing In the long run
Bret would not have done that. Never was a fan of his but Bret wasn't Medusa, he had respect for the business drilled into him since he was a kid. That's why people like me still don't respect Shawn Micheals who,despite his talent, shit all over the business every chance he got
He had plenty of time to drop the title between the Survivor Series and the beginning of his WCW contract. It's not like he couldn't have dropped the title at a later date before starting on his WCW contract.
@@rocklobster3414 That's dishonest thinking on the part of you and other WWF marks. Bret didn't start in WCW until December, so there were sufficient opportunities for him to drop the belt between the Survivor Series and his WCW debut. Shawn was obviously a poor choice, based on what he was like at the time, and maybe still is to some degree but maybe not so much now compared to back then. Vince forced Bret's hand by giving him his blessing to leave after Vince reneged on the 20 year contract Bret signed the previous year. It's real life crap like this is part of the reason people have stopped supporting professional wrestling, and also the product is probably not as interesting now.
@@rocklobster3414 Wrestlers didn't break the contract. Vince broke his contract with Bret. Bret went not by choice, but out of necessity. Contract law is a valid concept. legaldictionary.net/contract-law/ Maybe you should get a dose of reality, which pro wrestling isn't.
@@rocklobster3414 You're reaching. It's a gimmick is the thing you got right. For the record, Bret thinks Tom Billington, a.k.a. The Dynamite Kid is the best wrestler ever, in terms of all around technical skills, high spots, toughness and other attributes of a pro wrestler, albeit his promo skills were atrocious. He was not very good on the mic to put it mildly.
Lol @ 5:17-5:23 SUPER MARK DAVE!! 😂
What's he saying that isn't true? The AOL-TimeWarner merger killed WCW. At least when TimeWarner was the owner, they supported the promotion, but WCW's incompetence played a role too, like guaranteed contracts and overpaying certain talent.
Anyone know who was the person, that Dave doesnt want to acknowledge, who suggested "Sharpshooter" as the finish for Montreal?
Pat Patterson?
I'm guessing I honestly have no idea but that could explain why Dave doesn't want to say. So Pat has no heat with Bret.
Jim Cornette I know came up with the idea of screw job finish. That’s the story he has been telling now. Not sure if he actually went as far as to say sharpshooter. He recently had Meltzer on his podcast to talk about the screw job. Jim goes into a lot of detail about it.
Wasn't it Bret? I thought I heard meltzer say that at some point
Vince Russo took the credit for it but I’d say 75% of all interviews I’ve heard name Cornette as the architect of it
IF I WERE TO STICK MY EARBUDS UP MY NOSTRILS, WOULD THE MUSIC THEN COME OUT OF MY MOUTH? ACTING LIKE A MINI AMPITHEATER? AND IF SO, WHEN I CLOSE MY MOUTH, WILL THE SOUND MUTE?
45:29 "I don't know if there's a lesson. But the lesson that I always take about is this..." 🤦♀️
I mean like yeah so that's uh the deal
It was CORNY who said sharp shooter!!!!!!!! And it's Russo who's taking credit for it.
I think bret screwed bret. And sunny lol. Hey his the hit, man
Har Har Har 🙄
It was Corny!!
(But he didn't realize)
Yeah I believe Cornette when he told that story.
Cornette had a reputation within wrestling as being a guy who came up with creative finishes for matches.
Based on what he said though he came up with the finish not believing that Vince would actually go through with it.
It's a chore to listen to Dave speak
It is
This interviewer is terrible.
The narrative around so much of what the Lapsed fan brings up in these videos is such revisionist history, particularly when be talks about WCW in 96,97,98, and even 99; it makes ot hard to take any of this seriously.
Like when Meltzer says the Montreal screwjob led to 20 years of heel authority figures.... Hmmm eric Bischoff???? Wasnt that the president of the company, a heel on television screwing over babyfaces?
When you have little lies throughout your narrative you are setting up, it leads to the entire thing being disingenuous.
So much around Bret Hart from the screwjob to his end in wcw is mostly bullshit. Like he was some massive victim as the highest paid performer in the company
So Dave takes a gratuitous shot a religious people. Even though after Shawn was saved was when he told the truth.
it always smelled like BS to me, with the whole "I'll pray to God during my wrestling entrance and make a huge production of it"
Bulldog dropped the euro belt to hbk in Birmingham not Manchester. Come on Dave get your facts right 🤔
88sjls- who cares? Those people think and claim they have the creator of the universe on their side (whilst offering no intellectually-coherent evidence)
Why not? I'm sure Dave - like me, has found religious people to be full of shit than non-religious folks. And I worked in a ministry for several years!
Steven Gorefrost I hate that people who rush to defend Shawn at all costs, citing that he's changed as a reason to deride his critics and nonfans, conveniently leave out how Shawn rarely admits to any direct wrongdoings, he just skirts the issues by not addressing them, either claiming he doesn't remember due to the long lapse of time from then to the present or because he was under the influence of chemicals and his ego
But of course, Shawn always comes up with some excuse or loss of memory, he's a lot like Eric Bischoff in that way, both are guys who come off as pretending to be humble, but really come off looking like liars with convenient lapses of memory for when they don't want to implicate themselves or when they want to softball their involvement in anything negative
Time to grow up and switch to UFC children!
Carl Moores that's exactly what women say when they find out you are a rasslin fan
McGregor made UFC a joke!
Chris Brillinger you watch rasslin pal. The thing that has been a joke for 100 years HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA
It's entertainment you troll
Chris Brillinger it's Lowest common denominator garbage produced for 40 year old virgins. That's just the facts. The facts aren't trolling
Dave Meltzer, is a joke, I used to think he knew things, as time go by i see how little he knows. Just listen to his views of the territories , he is clueless, he doesn't even know which wrestlers in the late 70's and 80's were worth their salt.
That's why he has been honored by the Cauliflower Alley Club and Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame, and has worked for Vince McMahon Jr. He likes work rate and high spots over wrestlers who have great promo skills but can't work a lick.