Urban Warfare 2.0: A Conversation with John Spencer (Episode
Vložit
- čas přidán 22. 05. 2024
- Sam Harris speaks with John Spencer about the reality of urban warfare and Israel's conduct in the war in Gaza. They discuss the nature of the Hamas attacks on October 7th, what was most surprising about the Hamas videos, the difficulty in distinguishing Hamas from the rest of the population, combatants as a reflection of a society's values, how many people have been killed in Gaza, the proportion of combatants and noncombatants, the double standards to which the IDF is held, the worst criticism that can be made of Israel and the IDF, intentions vs results, what is unique about the war in Gaza, Hamas's use of human shields, what it would mean to defeat Hamas, what the IDF has accomplished so far, the destruction of the Gaza tunnel system, the details of underground warfare, the rescue of hostages, how noncombatants become combatants, how difficult it is to interpret videos of combat, what victory would look like, the likely aftermath of the war, war with Hezbollah, Iran's attack on Israel, what to do about Iran, and other topics.
John Spencer is an award-winning scholar, professor, author, and combat veteran. He currently serves as the Chair of Urban Warfare Studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point, Co-Director of the Urban Warfare Project, and host of the Urban Warfare Project podcast. He is also a founding member of the International Working Group on Subterranean Warfare. John served 25 years in the U.S. Army, having held ranks from Private to Sergeant First Class and Second Lieutenant to Major. He was an active duty Army officer during two combat tours in Iraq.
His research focuses on military operations in dense urban areas, megacities, and urban and subterranean warfare. Spencer holds a Master of Policy Management from Georgetown University, and his writings have appeared in the Time magazine, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, and many other publications. He is considered one of the world’s leading experts on urban warfare and has served as an advisor to everyone from top four-star generals to world leaders. He is the coauthor of "Understanding Urban Warfare."
Website: www.johnspenceronline.com
Twitter: @SpencerGuard
May 7, 2024
SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes of the podcast at samharris.org/subscribe/ OR become a channel member to access episodes on CZcams. For those who can't afford the full subscription price, we offer full and partial scholarships www.samharris.org/subscribe/s...
Subscribe to the YT channel: czcams.com/users/subscription_c...
Follow Making Sense on Twitter: / makingsensehq
Follow Sam on Facebook: / samharrisorg
Follow Sam on Instagram: / samharrisorg
For more information about Sam Harris: www.samharris.org - Věda a technologie
This is perhaps the most valuable contribution to the conversation about Israel-Gaza since October 7th. Thank you Sam for making this interview publicly available. I hope many people listen to it with an open mind
You need to listen to other people Phil. Try Ezra Klein
Daniel Maté, a composer-lyricist, who is also Jewish, in his response to Brené Brown on Gaza:
"They [the resistence] are the ones who deserve our respect, our alliagence, or at least our decency to shut the f* up and not condemn them until we understand their material conditions"
@@jmc5335Sure, listen to Ezra Klein (an expert of nothing) or an expert on urban warfare... Hmmm.. tough choice
@@UmaU-pg1mxMatè is a psychopath
@@UmaU-pg1mx congrats to him
Sadly, the people who need to hear this the most won't listen to it.
They don't want to hear it and it wouldn't matter if they did.
The people who need to hear this most are actually the people who will forget all this the second something more interesting comes along. That is to say, they don't need to hear it. Those who really do need to know it already do know it. The politicians. And we all know exactly why they are pretending to not know the reality of the situation. Gross.
Who are those people?
I listened to first 40 minutes, and I couldn't bear up with the rest, it's a disgrace that this pseudo-intellectual creates his own echo-chamber and bend the reality for his own interests. This podcast is disgustingly manipulating.
Yeah well he’s got TDS
I pray this interview goes viral. I have been in shock for 6 months that so many people could believe a brutal war against terrorists who use human shields is somehow now a genocide. The obsessive hate people have for the IDF while ignoring and excusing Hamas is insane.
So you think that indiscriminately killing these human shields to get at these terrorists is justified? You do realize the human shields are mostly women and children that don’t want to die right?
I’m with you on that exactly
@@b12deficient24there's no indiscriminate killingm
Dude it's not one or the other. We can condemn both Hamas and the IDF. The fact is, the IDF is killing 30x more innocent life than Hamas. Their war crimes are endless. It just happens to be that one group's war crimes are obvious savagery, while the other group's are more complex and hidden from view, but they are still egregious war crimes nonetheless!
@@atlehman69 did you even watch the video? Obviously not.
Oct 7th was first degree murder. War on Hamas isn't murder. Arabs killed 7 Jews a minute. Are 7 Arabs dying a minute? No.
If Israel was like Hamas there'd be no Arabs alive
"Endless war crimes" is rhetoric. You're just a Jew hating pro-Hamas bigot...
Thank you for no pay wall on this one. I’m too proud to get a free account and I’m struggling with money lately. I really do appreciate getting to hear this whole episode.
I understand that. I've been wanting to get an account for almost 3 years, and just can't bring myself to ask for a handout.
@asraarradon4115 You don't even have to ask. You literally just press a button on the website. I hesitated for a while, but there was nothing to it.
@@asraarradon4115 Sam and likely most of his team will be more than fine with it, and also they'll understand you couldn't have done otherwise 😂
They offer it for a reason. They understand some people are going through difficult finical times. Don’t be too proud.
I can afford it and opt for the free subscription. Been doing it for years. The content isn't worth the money and I feel no obligation to enrich those with more money than me. There isn't a single podcast worth paying for that I'm aware of besides Dan Carlin's Hardcore History.
This conversation needs to be broadcast on primetime! Unfortunately, that won't happen. I'll be sharing this with as many as possible! Thank you!
At minute 1:15:00 they talked about idf killing 4 teenagers walking along without any RPGs or any weapons. Spencer says since idf targeted the teenagers who were not carry any weapons the idf must be correct. Let's say they were soldiers without any weapons, thus defenseless can be killed? Both Spencer and Sam are dumb!
At minute 1:22:00 they are talking about the day after when no more rockets from Gaza. How is Israel going to control 2 million Gazans. Normally for prisions there is 1 guard for every 10 prisoner. So for Gaza a population of 2 million needs a 200k IDF forces to patrol. Let's say each soldier is paid the minimum salary of USD 10 per hour. Which comes to 10x10x365= USD 36 500 per year. For 200k idf soldiers it comes to USD7.3 billion a year. The US Congress will definitely pass the bill.
@everythingandmore5537 huh? What are you talking about? Israel administered gaza for 50 years they didn't need 200k soldiers lol.
@@John-bravoooAll correct, just to be accurate 2005-1967=38.
@@everythingandmore5537
1. It is not a prison.
2. Israel is provided with USA made weapons, it does not get any cash money.
This is among the most useful discussions that I've heard since the initial weeks following the terrorist attack and the most in-depth discussion I've encountered about the specifics of what's happening on the ground in Gaza. Thank you for posting it outside of the paywall so that as many people as possible are able to hear.
Shame it’s all IDF propaganda
You obviously prefer terrorist propaganda @@NPCMii
@@NPCMii Are you going to cite anything?
@@NPCMii You're unironically an NPC
@@psmorgan2542Noooo, ad hom so soon?
Great podcast - I recommend it to all sane, well adjusted, non social media captured, or religiously compromised folks. Hopefully the world wakes up
All you’re getting is israeli state sponsored propaganda
Daniel Maté, a composer-lyricist, who is also Jewish, in his response to Brené Brown on Gaza:
"They [the resistence] are the ones who deserve our respect, our alliagence, or at least our decency to shut the f* up and not condemn them until we understand their material conditions"
What a fantastic speaker. So relevant today with his field of expertise. I listened to him on another podcast but it’s a whole different level with Sam as a host. It’s saddening that such unbiased and important conversations don’t get the deserved attention and hundreds of thousands of views.
Literally just a paid Israeli propagandist
Thank you for sharing this outside of the paywall. I’ve been following John Spencer for years, and he is undoubtedly one of the most well-informed & intellectually honest analysts regarding urban warfare.
Its so refreshing hearing someone, who actually knows what he's talking about.
Especially when they validate your world view.
My world view flipped 180 after spending years in a debate group with pro-Palestinian activists. I’ve been on both sides of the fence and spent significant time listening to all sides. After that deliberation I came to the conclusion this world view best reflected reality.
@@NPCMiiYou are a Russian bot, look at your bot-like comment history. Trash takes abound
Because this was one of the few non-far left guests he brought on.
Some facts: US military war fatalities:
WW1: 116 000
WW2: 405 400
Korean war: 38 680
Vietnam war: 58 220
Afghanistan war: 2370
Iraq war: 4500
The biggest crime of the international community is the fact that they made Hamas's strategy of using Human shields not only a viable strategy but also an acceptable one.
So it’s a “crime” when the international community supposedly doesn’t call out the human shield tactics (many do)…but it’s not a crime when the IDF kills civilians being used as said human shields?
Got it.
What can the international community do about that which the Palestinians themselves have not?
@@Resenbrink They could condemn those who use human shields, rather than pretend it is the fault of those Hamas attacked.
@@deborahfreedman333 they do. Even biased organizations like AI have consistently condemned them for it. It‘s just like the Hamas supporting keyboard warriors and university arab cosplayers are very selective in their recognition of what AI condemns.
*Some samples of LAST 20 years:*
Nigeria Boko Haram 350,000 dead
Sudan JEM/Darfur 300,000 dead
Yemen vs Houthis 233,000 dead
Pakistan vs Islamists 50,000 dead
Syria 500,000 dead
South Sudan's 400,000 dead
Ethiopia and Eritrea vs Tigray 600,000 dead
No protests for all these dead.
They are not about people in Gaza, the demonstrations knowingly and unknowingly are in service of other interests.
International players play for their interests.
The international western democracies which are those you actually refer to, suffer from an inherent deficiency of democracies, where the government usually relies on 50%+ of votes , and gaining that + or - depends on a fringe percentage of voters, the loyal base stays loyal and the fringe voters get the power.
That was an incredibly important episode that provided much needed clarity and insight. It could have massive positive impact if enough minds encounter it. Share it as much as you can everyone.
It’s anti human israeli propaganda and nothing more bro
“We just want a ceasefire” says the protestor pretending it is the responsibility of one side to “just stop fighting”
They literally started a war with Israel, now them and their useful idiots are crying when they get a bloody nose.
The difference between a terrorist attack and an invasion in terms of perception was very striking.
I've heard John Spencer elsewhere, but this interview stands out because of the quality of the questions and the generous duration of the conversation.
It also because Sam Harris unlike most podcasters and journalist masters the art of listening.
It was basically an IDF press release 🇵🇸
@@kmg474 No, it was a lecture from a person who knows much more about war than you do. And if you were smart enough, you would have listened and think, but you are unable to make your brainwashed head to do so.
@piege2 Sure, he knows lots about war. The point is, there shouldn't be a war. Especially not one that is being almost exclusively waged against women and children.
@@kmg474 interesting. And where all the men have disappeared, or maybe Gaza consists only of women and children? Or maybe Israeli bombs are so smart that they fall only on the heads of women and children? Does it seem logical to you? By the way, there are updated figures from UN regarding the death toll with details how many different groups are killed and the numbers of women and children have been drastically reduced, but you keep relying on the pro-palestinian propaganda still and spread BS.
This is a worthwhile fascinating discussion on the situation in Israel. Thanks Sam, your videos/podcasts are always great.
This was eye opening. Thank you Sam
This was so informative and really put into word’s what I’ve been feeling about the misconceptions. Love Sam he’s one of the smartest men alive.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
I don’t think there is a more qualified person to speak about the way Israel is prosecuting this war in an objective manner. Excellent choice for a guest.
Also important to note that it was very intelligent of Sam to not put this episode behind a paywall. It allows far more people to become educated on how to view the war during a time where there is a lot of confusion around the way Israel is prosecuting the war response. I just hope this gets out to as many people as possible.
Well done.
What makes you think that a man who tells you that Fatah is a terrorist organisation is qualified or objective
@@jmc5335 read the guys resume…
As an Army veteran, it was excellent to listen to someone who understands what is happening in this war. This needs to go viral.
Really great podcast! Thank you gentlemen!
Hamas doesn't have 200 hostages. They have 2 million.
I'm afraid that is not true. We know that many, many Gazans followed Hamas into southern Israel on 7 Oct to loot. We know many in Gaza were openly celebrating the death and kidnapping of Israelis. We know from released hostages that Gazan civilians were holding them as hostage slaves at their homes, starving them in front of children. We know that Egypt has built a big fat wall to prevent Gazans from being able to enter Egypt. We know that every single poll taken in Gaza shows a huge level of support for Hamas. I don't know if those polls are full of false replies. But even without relying on polls at all, we have plenty of evidence to show huge numbers of Gazans support Hamas.
You thought you cooked with this.
No they voted Hamas in
They had two million human shields and expendable assets, in their view.
@@zilefn9212 Yes you're right. it seems like over 70% of them support such acts. so I would estimate 15-30% of the population being hostage to Hamas and the rest of the populations either ignorance or malice.
Excellent discussion. I just wish others would open their minds as to what’s going on.
🙏🇬🇧🙏🇬🇧🙏🇬🇧
Thank you for this very informative guest! I wish more people would seek out the facts, but at least you have made them easier to find.
Sam Harris is an American treasure. Priceless podcast yet again. John Spencer is informed and superb.
Also a member of the people who benefit from defense spending and war so very very biased
He is anti Christian
I'm curious about something no one ever seems to ask about the Gaza health ministry: where actually IS this organization?? If most of Gaza has been destroyed, how is the health ministry still fully functional and able to give their minute-by-minute updates?
Reading the Wikipedia page for GHM now. They are a branch of the Hamas government, and are therefore physically based in the tunnels and hideouts of the organizations. They were previously functioning as a network of health professionals in now destroyed hospitals. It’s been shown that around 50% of their data is procured indirectly from un-cited “reliable media sources”. Furthermore around 35% of their mortality claims are based on “incomplete data”.
Easy to do, when numbers are fabricated.
It is not. They make up numbers.
I imagine there's no office building or permanent address, likewise for bunch of other "institutions" It's probably just some guys who are the Ministry of this and that. One day they "work" behind some kitchen table next day the ministry has a meeting -session in a bunker next to a room where hostages are being held.
We have probably different idea what "functional" means :)
Do you remember the 500 assumed dead at al Ahli hospital?
Their number was never subtracted from the overall.
The line “it seems like all of the sudden billions of people are just now realizing that war is horrible” gagged me- i think that’s exactly a factor we’re underestimating; the social mediafication of war and flooding of imagery and misinformation is making people respond in outrage in a way that’s very unique to this time 😬
People have been saying war is horrible forever . That statement was a bs line he threw out to wow us . He’s so full of shit on that point. He is however accurate on how all of the sudden - a proportional response . Also - where were all these students 4 months ago ? Additionally most of the anti Israel left hates the country and for the most part the US. Many leftest don’t even think Israel should exist let alone defend itself . Ffs Aaron Mate said as much.
Quite a class. You learn more on this podcast than anywhere else on internet about the subject.
People simply do not understand the reality of violence, and thus have wildly unrealistic expectations. This is the same problem we have with videos getting out of violent interactions between the police and people resisting arrest--the average person on the street sees the video and asks "why didn't the police just shoot him in the leg instead of killing him?" Because they only know the sanitized violence of super hero movies.
Truly an unprecedented war an difficult to compare. Hezbollah and the Iranian Quds force complicate an already massively complex war. Israel can not over commit forces against Hamas lest these other adversaries be given tactical advantage should they choose to attack. The nature of potential indirect attacks by artillery weapons demands that Israel reserve enough forces to counter attack all the while fighting in terrain that demands massive amounts of manpower to overpower the enemy.
I feel so damn sorry for Israelis. And Jews around the world.
Everybody should hear this. One of the most clear sighted, objective and sensible discussions about the Gaza war on the entire internet. Thank you to Sam Harris for making this available to everyone. A genuine public service in a time of turmoil and mental/moral chaos.
Thank you. Thanks also for making whole conversation available. I deeply appreciate all you do and offer the world, Sam.
Thank you Sam. Your work is valuable.
Thanks for helping me understand what's happening.
Thank you for bringing the voice of one of the leading urban warfare experts of our time
This needs to go viral.
Voices of reason. Much appreciated!
Thank you Sam for another incredible podcast! This is incredible
I think it was the best podcast I've heard on this topic
Educated, rational analysis by one of the world's top experts. Thank you.
Great talk.
Shalom, from Lisbon.
It’s ironic that you say “shalom” when Jews are doing anything but perpetuating peace in the world.
difficult to overstate just how needed this discussion is.
seperate but sadly related question, Sam have you had any luck in securing Dan Stone for a conversation ?
Amazing. An actual discussion with an actual expert with concrete experience on the matter at hand and similar events in the past. Must watch for every youtuber.
Very important episode. Thank you for being a voice of moral clarity in a world gone mad!!!
Some people say that Hamas did what they did as an act of resistance... I support Ukraine 101%. However, if they broke into Russia and did what Hamas did on October 7th, and Zelenski and the Ukrainian people supported this, I would be the first to stop being on their side.
What I don't understand is how some westerners don't have this compulsion when it comes to October 7th, an obvious act of pure evil.
Really good point
Do you view October 7th as an isolated incident?
Ukraine was behind the concert hall massacre in Russia. But... Stay Home, Wash Your Hands, Support Ukraine.
@@Mac-ku3xuhah good one :)
@@Mac-ku3xuhow do you know this?
Everyone needs to hear this!
Thank you Sam for releasing the full episode so we can share. Excellent episode, I wish more in the west had your moral clarity.
Usually it takes me 14 days to listen to one of his videos cuz I have to pause every 4 seconds to look up words. Smooth brains like me appreciate small words videos like this
I think you are way too hard on yourself.
Small words, but exactly well explained.
If you take Hamas numbers, the ratio is 1 Hamas to 4 civilians. Even that is a good ratio for an urban battle.
Again, we don't look at that ratio. If the numbers of soldiers stay constant, then the ratio depends only on the population size. If the population is big, the ratio is big. If the population is small, the ratio is small.
That's why we look at demographic ratio. What percentage of civilians were killed? What percentage of soldiers were killed? Those are the correct questions.
I don't know why, but most people make that math mistake.
When you consider that'hamas' constitutes the entire civilian infrastructure in Gaza, functionaries, government, utilities.... That number takes on an even worse level.
Also, what f***ING insane level of inhumane, zero empathy can you have when you talk about 4:1 ratio being just fine. That amounts to roughly 28,000 people dead. Where is your humanity?!
@@SiRushBassits more than fine comparetively to any war previouslu fought. Its more than fine when Hamas are deliberately trying to incur more civilian deaths for optics by not letting people leave areas and not providing bomb shelters. The ratio is much closer to 1 in 2 in.amy case, Hamas is lying about those numbers dont be ridiculous.
@@SiRushBasshumanity? Lol. Who converts schools to missile factories and uses children as combatants?
200,000 russians killed in ukraine, where is your humanity?
Best analysis of this war I have ever heard. This thinking should be a common place in the media. Astonishingly, the opposite is being the case,
Oh wow...
The pristine clarity - morally, factually, historically, technically, militarily, geo-politically....
I'd donate everything and anything of value, monetarily or otherwise for this most precious gem of truth to be aired 24/7 on every single information platform on the planet and live out the rest of my life in blissful poverty.
If only I wasn't already as poor as one can be :(
Blessings on both of you - true and honest gentlemen.
You make the perfect peasant
@@jmc5335 I'll be taking that as a compliment irrespective of the intention
@@Falcordog1212 Doffing your cap to the lords as they scoff at you.
What makes you think that a man who blames Jews for their own genocide and a man who calls Fatah a terrorist organisation have the moral, factual, historical and geo-political clarity you claim they have?
@@jmc5335 Awww... The truth really hurts once you realise you've been living a lie.
No biggie. You'll get over it.
Overcoming denial is indeed the most challenging phase.
I wish you nothing but goodness on your path ahead.
That said, relinquishing hate requires a concious choice.
Goodness and hate cannot coexist by definition.
Up to you hey...
@@jmc5335 The answer to that is simple.
I not only studied the intricate complexities of the conflict, the historical facts against the plethora of falsities, the theological/cultural depth, all the way down to the nuances and differences between the many tribes (large family groups), their affiliations and interactions vis-à-vis others, as well as the individual regimes, sectarian animosities and so much more....
I spent half my life residing in the mideast.
So I kinda know stuff.
My reaction to the podcast was such a huge surprise only because every single aspect raised was absolutely spot on.
It was the most accurate analysis broadcasted to western audience I've ever encountered.
Massive kudos to Sam for his uncompromising dedication to truth.
Political correctness is synonymous with blatantly lying.
And that's precisely the reason so many in the west are absolutely clueless.
Yes, Israel is losing the PR war in the West. That worries me.
Always hard to sell mass murder isn't it.
no amount of PR can cover up genocide
Because the west's left is self-loathing and is controlling important institutions. Add that to the millions of Muslims allowed to enter the west over the past few decades - and you get a recipe for disaster.
What worries me is that I don’t understand why and how
Crazy to think that cutting food and water from millions of people might make you look bad. 🤔
Great photo.
Whoever does his thumbnails needs a pay rise...
@@5starcommentit’s just a generic stock image of guys on a tank?
John Spencer is a deontologist living in a simplistic, utilitarian world. He is 100% correct ethically, though he only hinted at his views in this interview. The most important moral question we should be asking is: What does the world look like if Hamas’s tactics are normalized - where attacking (civilians or military targets) and then falling back behind and under your own civilians is a legitimate way to fight a war and avoid consequences? Is this a world any of us want to live in?
Utilitarians approach the issue as one of the absolute numbers of fatalities or the civilian to combatant ratio. While the latter is somewhat useful in gauging how careful an army is being, fatality figures are the wrong way of looking at war. There is no number or ratio above which a war becomes immoral. Protect the enemy’s civilians as best you can while minimizing the risk to your own people. That’s it.
Thank you for making this situation much more clear.
This should be required listening for any voting American.
John spenser was clear consice and knowledgeable. Good questions from Harris. Great podcast. Thanks!
Thank you Sam. Great guest and great questions.
Thank you for this.
Thank you.
Thx Sam and guest. A good bit of unbiased reasoning and evidence is brought to the fore. This conversation, with its depth of info, needs heard.
Thank you
The protesters demand "ceasefire", but not hostages being freed😮
And shouting Globalize the Intifada simultaneously. SMH😂
Much needed episode. Thank you
Civilian casualties have been a serious issues in many wars , from Hiroshima to Iraq
I wonder if we would have left Iraq years earlier if the media constantly whined about civilians killed in Iraq.
Of course the majority died in the first month. What with all the bombings from the US.
Thanks so much for another great episode, and for everything you do.
Based. Most of them don't even know which river or sea they are chanting about.
Thank God for Sam Harris ! :)
Thanks Sam, for hosting normal people, not like many other news, Hosts, we need more people like you and your guest.
Great discussion and in fact eye opening. Thanks.
Such great questions and observations! Everyone should listen to this highly informative and insightful podcast, especially Israel’s detractors.
It's a tidal wave directed at Israelis and Jews. I'm disappointed in Biden.
Sam needs to interview Mosab Hassan Yousef.
Keep those PSAs coming Sam. The world's trajectory is truly disturbing
Fantastic podcast. Incredible perspectives on the war. Kudos to Sam digging into the detail and playing a but of devil's advocate.
Just so insightful and it really helps you to understand the monumental task bestowed on Israel
Refreshing to hear people speak to what’s obvious. Its hard to not think most media is deliberate info campaigns nowadays when such obviousness is ignored.
Like what?
I don't think this is obvious at all. Like i agree with what is being said, but we are talking about essentially the first war thats being live streamed and a bunch of young people with very limited historical knowledge are rightly horrified by what that looks like.
The media should know better. Their bias has been disturbing and disappointing.
Please talk to Mosab yousef, Sam. His life story will teach you all you need to know about that region. It is far worse than I even imagined.
Extremely enlightening discussion!
An invasion implies Hamas forces intended to occupy those areas they over ran. October 7th was a raid, the apparent goals which were to obtain hostages and incite a reprisal from the IDF. Mission accomplished.
Take A Moment Relax and Enjoy a genius working hard.
Stay Safe and Stay Free 🌐
Great guest and conversation
If you want even higher quality propaganda than this, just go straight to IDF press releases.
Brilliant as always. Sam is a shining light on a world of moral blindness
Yes, he's shining a big beacon of blood thirsty, genocidal light all over this conversation 😂😂😂😂
I appreciate this content I haven’t heard anything like it before. Thanks for sharing it. There is not, nor was there ever, a good path forward for Israel. Urban combat comes with collateral damage that goes without saying. Israel, at the beginning of the war, promised to minimize this, but from an outsider looking in, legacy media would have it appear like Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. However, this podcast makes a solid case against that. I think Israel has the right to defend itself and to root out Hamas, but it comes with responsibilities. Again, there will be civilian casualties in urban combat, but it should be kept to a bare minimum. I now understand because of this podcast, Israel has been doing this to the best of its ability. The IDF is winning the battles but sadly losing the PR war.
The media is interested in emotions and sensation.
All media crews in Gaza are local.
Hard to win PR against 57 members of the Organization of Islamic Countries.
Qatar sponsor Hamas and Al Jazeera and leading western Universities, it also controls 21% of global LNG market.
Thank you 👍
I hope you would seriously discuss this being a genocide. It is not an invasion.
Open a dictionary for heavens sake it is not a genocide. Also Hamas is not trustworthy.
UN Halves Its Estimate of Women and Children Killed in Gaza
The UN cut in half its estimates of the number of women and children killed in Gaza. The estimates were based on Hamas numbers and are a reminder that all fatality estimates coming from that source are unreliable. [Source: Council on Foreign Relations]
This is a very important conversation that will sadly not reach the audience that needs to listen. Thank though for making this available outside the paywall.
Great questions
what a great conversation!
I don’t see why Israel should worry more about Palestinians than about Israeli soldiers. Or why Israel shouldn’t simply reclaim Gaza altogether.
Because that would be against international law. Gaza has to be part of a Palestinian state if we are in accordance with the law. Just not under Hamas rule of course.
@@domsnow6418
Neither Gaza nor the west Bank are independent states right now.
And they probably never will be.
It's great. Whilst this guy is stating what he knows to be true as fact, you know that nothing cloudy or uncertain could get through the Making Sense filter, purely by the fact that Sam Harris has had on his podcast, such a diversity of political perspectives on the issue, offering all kinds of contrary opinions to which he respectfully listens and debates.
I think he has had on international relations expert Douglas Murray twice now, just for good measure. It is so refreshing that Sam Harris does this. I would hate it if he were to discount all alternative opinions as "moral confusion" and then just have on a succession of people who he agrees with, to throws lob ball questions to, and for him to just restate his opinions to 4 or 5 times over 8 months. Not Sam.
I also think it's fresh that he on the one hand presents Hamas as a group of ideologically mad rogue bandits, which was my impression, but then accepts that their actions and the consequences they have on the 2 million people who live in Gaza, is a straight up moral comparison with the actions of Israel, a modern state with one of the most funded militaries in the world. It would be easy to think of the civilians of Gaza as victims of circumstance, and that given Israel's military superiority and potential harm they can do to those civilians, as an actor burdened with unique responsibility, but it's not true. There is no action they could take, less than the burning of Dresden or a bombing of Hiroshima that anybody can morally question, given the ideology of Hamas.
Also in this age of disinformation, one could correctly identify that social media and the information landscape gives the potential for the over amplification of niche opinions and be concerned about that... but then to take that too far and decide that all opinions different than your own are purely examples of that phenomenon. Not Sam. He identified it but then proceeds to identify his own potential (unknown to him) blind spots and cautiously have on all kinds of guests. Including, as I mentioned, Douglas Murray twice now. A breath of fresh air! Keep up the good work!
Every media outlet in human history is biased and always will be. Sam's platform is no different. He takes a side, but at least he can articulate WHY he's on that side and defend it when challenged.
He's literally famous because he debates people who oppose his views, theologians, Jihadist sympathizers, etc. If all he ever did was sit in an echo chamber, nobody would know who he is.
@@EzraB123 I totally agree, who was your favorite guest who opposes his views on Israel, since the war began?
Mine was, as mentioned, Douglas Murray. On the episode with Szeps, Murray said of opponents to Israeli actions that they liked to compare Israel to the Nazis because it makes the holocaust seem more normal and that maybe we weren't so naughty after all." That was a really profound steelmanning. Really moving the debate forward from the usual podcastastan noise!
But there is a few to pick from. Who did you like?
@paulrussell1207 Aside from John Spencer, I liked his talk with Yasmine Mohammed. I'm reading her book now.
To answer your question, the person who is most at odds with Harris (that he invited) was Rory Stewart. If you go and watch that video, Rory calls him out and accuses him of bigotry. Sam still invited him and still engaged with him, even though they disagreed on a lot.
But to be fair, he (nor anyone else) is under any obligation to invite people of her certain political demographic. Most podcasts and most media outlets are partially one-sided, partially echo chambers. I'm okay with Sam because he can he has a history of debating religion and politics publicly, and he's held his ground.
Everyone is biased. Bias is fine, so as long as you can justify the views you hold.
@@EzraB123 I listened to it but they were mostly talking about the motivations of jihadism, not Israeli policy. Rory Stewart, despite his history, is very slimy and of a political background and it shows. It would be more interesting if spoke to somebody of a journalistic or a humanitarian background who was recently on ground in Gaza.
I am not really sure what an obligation to have people on would really look like to be honest, so that's not really a claim anybody is making here. He is free to have on a guy who thinks he is Santa Claus if he so wishes, but certain guests will make better more useful content than others.
I first discovered Sam Harris many, many years ago when he debated Cenk (whatever the guy from TYT is called) and it was clear that Cenk wasn't debating honestly. So I agree his debates were very useful and I like how he tested his ideas by having them in the past too.
But since about 2019 or so, he has become so fixated with not "amplifying moral confusion" that he rarely ever has debates anybody, and seems to have lost faith in the public's ability to listen to a debate and make an honest assessment. It's true there is only a few people who can be swung, but he can move the consensus a small bit, some people recognize honesty of hysteria and those who don't will likely have a fixed position anyway.
Actually he has so many like-minded people on his podcast on so many topics, that in the last 2 years, he often starts on a bit he said on a previous podcast almost word for word, it's like that uncle at a family gathering telling you a story they told you last Christmas. Think of a movie - free will, the IDF parading people through Tel Aviv etc, etc.
@paulrussell1207 Yeah, that's a fair assessment. I've followed him for years. Sometimes, he's right on the dot. Other times, he isn't. He does repeat arguments and talking points A LOT, but that doesn't bother me that much.
I'd say this interview with John is one of his better episodes.
Great insights
I find it interesting that you reference the Battle of Manila. Popular histories describe Okinawa, Iwo Jima and Guadalcanal but not so much Manila. Here is a description by Dr. Duncan Anderson: "MacArthur ruled out air power on the grounds that it was too imprecise...once Sixth Army had been given permission to increase the employment of artillery, it used it with an increasing lack of discrimination until guns were lined up wheel to wheel... The Filipino dead were too numerous to count, but the number was certainly not less than 100,000 people...To MacArthur, the battle had been an embarrassment...He decreed that no mention would be made of the battle in public monuments erected in the Philippines and in the United States..."
I wonder how many University protestors would continue their protests if they were forced to watch every video recorded by Hamas during their invasion of Israel on Oct. 7.
I‘m sure many of them would revel in their antisemitic glee
You can protest the ongoing humanitarian crisis without supporting Hamas.
And if they watching videos of the treatment of Palestinians over the last 75 years? The death and subjugation going on as we speak in the west bank? Don't close your eyes to the inhumane treatment of the Palestinians
They will what-about everything, and deny the video is accurate or true. Theirs is an emotional argument, they are believers in their cause, and facts will not shift their disgusting beliefs.
@@deborahfreedman333 Right. Even if you consider Gaza to be an occupied territory, even if you acknowledge the legitimacy of armed resistance against occupation, nowhere in international law is the deliberate slaughter of civilians ever justified.
Results in science are not conclusions. People love number like 30,000 without asking what those numbers mean. Given the circumstance is that a lot? A little?
It's very difficult for a layman/average person to admit thst skepticism without being ostracised.
Being intellectually humble is rarely rewarded these days. While I’ll admit this discussion was broadly one-sided it’s always good to nail down some of the facts of the matter when most discussions around this are anything but..
@@MADDcartman There are two sides, and then there's the truth. I prefer the latter. That's what I get here. Sam Harris is one of my most trusted sources of news and reality.
more than 1 is too many unless you're a neocon psycho like Sam
There comes a time when the number is so high that there is no justification.
I don't agree with a lot of this but thank you for doing this. Some good arguments here.
This has to be the best, non biased, balanced, nuanced discussion on the Hamas war to date. Thank you for making the full conversation available.
Thank you, Sam. One can rely on you for a serious, in-depth, honest exploration of what is happening. Your choice of interlocutors is excellent.THANK YOU
Echo chamber😂😂😂😂
Closest US comparison on the "proximity" point? (Because the full-scale cartel conflict hasn't happened yet, and hopefully won't,) in a somewhat non-obvious way, that would probably have to be the Cuban Missile Crisis.
This comparison might actually be unexpectedly informative. Because, what should we have done? The risk of nuclear war could certainly be considered 'completely unacceptable'. So, should our response therefore have been, to allow a strategically advantageous location in our immediate vicinity to be weaponized with nukes? If risking nuclear holocaust is 'unacceptable,' then this would have to have been allowed.
There is NO POSSIBLE WAY to preserve the defensive integrity of a nation, if it is deemed 'impermissible' to engage certain, measured offensive strategies (either implied or carried out,) sometimes despite both incurred casualties, and existential risks.
Sam is a World Champion Pseudo intellectual.
Sammy The Pseudo Harris.
You poor poor brainwashed thing.
Thank you, this is so important.
It is so frustrating what's going on with the media cover of this war.
And don't get me started on social media.
Thank you.
What media coverage? I have seen nothing but praise for Israel on the mainstream media.
Joe Rogan podcast being a hotbed of misinfo and ideologues as always.
@@jirkazalabak1514new york times ran with the fake hospital bombing story. Media keep reporting about children being killed when most of them are actual enemy combatants, not kids. Humanitatian reporting Hamas' numbers as fact. And social media is insane, filled with jihadist ispamist propaganda.
@@deeky1239Yeah, it was listening to Rogan that I first came across Sam Harris
It‘s the loud minority as usual. Also spam bots, I‘m pretty sure.
This conversation needs to be repeated again and again due to its importance
Thanks for mentioning Karabakh. It’s truly an example that shows the hypocrisy of public opinion. It also shows an ironic failure on Israel’s part, both in terms of clearly being on the side of the wrong, and also in terms of Israel being so surprised when others attacked them in similar ways.
Been a huge fan of Sam for over a decade, but he makes several points in this pod that seem to lack his usual intellect or understanding of a topic.
1. Asking why college protestors aren’t protesting against Russia invading Ukraine and suggesting there’s some antisemitism in there. Could it be because the US is the closest ally Isreal has? And that the US provide $billions to Israel? And that many colleges and universities invest in arms manufacturers that supply Israel? I’m surprised he massively oversimplified this. And suggesting the protestors are Hamas supporters? WTF?
2. He massively oversimplifies the conflict as if Palestinians just hate all Jews for because of religious reasons. Completely ignoring 80 years of Palestinians being oppressed by Israel.
3. There were more… maybe I should have taken notes!
I’d love to seem Sam have Bassem Youssef on for a discussion.
Boom. Well said. Sam is all over the place on this. His tribalism is showing.
1. Europe also financed Russia with gas money. And everyone finances China, who then purchases Russian resources. Where are the protests?
2. The "oppression" wasn't done for funsies, it's a two-sided affair and Israel ended up on top. It's not Israel's fault they bootstrapped a nation and all others wanted to do was attack them.