The Infernal Logic of Jihad: A Conversation with Graeme Wood (Episode
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- čas přidán 2. 11. 2023
- Sam Harris speaks with Graeme Wood about the October 7th atrocities in Israel, the unfolding war in Gaza, and the ongoing problem of global jihadism.
Graeme Wood is a national correspondent for The Atlantic. He has written for The New Yorker, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, and many other publications. He was the 2014-2015 Edward R. Murrow Press Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, and he teaches in the political science department at Yale University. He is the author of The Way of the Strangers: Encounters with the Islamic State.
Website: www.theatlantic.com/author/gr...
Twitter: @gcaw
November 3, 2023
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I notice numerous comments crying over the Israel Gaza war. Meanwhile no tears or calls for ceasefire in Syria civil war which has killed over 300 000 and displaced 14 million. Or any of the other wars taking place.
Because Israel is essentially a Western state?
Muslims and their supporters doesn't care for Yemen neither.
Very true
You’re quite right.
This hyper fixation on Israel isn’t motivated by love for the poor poor Arab refugees. It’s real motivation is and always has been the hatred of Jews.
Even the middle east doesn't care about this
Is there a more clear voice than Sam Harris in all of this? It still amazes me how people will label him a racist without understanding his point about the dangers of religious fundamentalism. We need a left of center voice that speaks the truth about what groups like Hamas truly stand for.
This guy isn't a clear voice but a voice of deceit and if you cannot see that, well, I feel for you. He CLEARLY has a standing for isreal and the zionist who believe the entire Arabian peninsula belongs to them.
You keep following him and he'll lead you to a place you would regret deeply
Its not irrational to fear Islam
Definitely irrational to "fear" 1/5 of the worlds population
That's being sane and informed.
It’s rational to fear all the nations who hold religion as some sort of validation for anything. The U.K. and US over Iraq, Israel over the occupation of land because of its “holy sites” hamas and hezbollah nations for their hatred of non-Muslims (even more so ex-Muslims) Hinduism and their saffron terrorists.
The Isreal Palestine conflict to me looks more and more as if religious ideals have overtaken national sovereignty to despicable consequences.
@@Theactivepsychoswhat can be easily explained by greed and racial tribalism i see no reason to attribute to religious marketing.
Especially when they do what Hamas recently did, on October 7,, and not a single important Muslim voice, has a problem with it . With Jews and Israelis they at least have a much greater capacity to actually criticise their own side.
Almost everyone else sounds dumb after you listen to Sam. He is a standard for clear thinking. Of course there are others but he has a unique clarity of thought.
"Standard for clear thinking" bwhaahahahahahahhahh
His thinking is very foggy on this issue. Quasi-religious even.
Listen to Gabor Mate's take
@@arsphoenix1822an example?
@@strongblackcoffee9573gabor mates take was so superficial and emotional and failed to recognise the issue, he thinks the rise of anti semitism after oct 7, is from “sickness of the soul”? Whatever th Fu** that means, just goes to show how little he knows about islam and how ignorant he is of it, didn’t know who he was, and im so glad to have found out what he’s about so that I don’t waste any more time on that guy.
I wish Christopher Hitchens was alive to give us his wisdom
Hitchens was an ardent critic of Israel and had been pro-Palestinian his whole life. Ofc, he'd condemn Hamas and Islamic extremism, but would have a much more nuanced and robust conversation on the plight of the Palestinians than Sam ever has, and unfortunately, ever will.
@@NavAK_86you're absolutely correct. It's unfortunate.
He is very missed.
To think kids these days get their “intellectual” influences form the likes of Hasan Piker and video streamers…
I go back and watch his debates. He had so much faith in humans. This king themselves into a better future
@@NavAK_86Hitchens detested Islam. The October 7th attacks probably would have made him reconsider the way September 11th did.
Thank you, Sam! And also thanks to Graeme Wood! There are no two people I would rather listen to talking about this issue.
Hitchens points out that both parties of god have vetoed any intelligent logical progress time after time . Makes it feel impossible to solve .
That was extremely well put.
It's diabolical- but religious dogmas do go extinct - they really do - Sadly, not in our lifetime, however. ☄️
Agreed!!!
Hitchens’ pointed out many times how religion, any religion, has severely retarded the advancement of civilization, everywhere, every time. You cannot think rationally while believing the irrational. Religions are not progressive by definition. The are indeed the man-forged manacles of the mind.
100%
Seriously excellent conversation
Dismembering people in front of their families before killing them: I first heard of that happening in the post-WW2 era during the genocide in Rwanda, and have since learned about similar human rights abuses in other places as well. The 1991 coup in Haiti included people being forced to eat parts of their own bodies that had been hacked off.
In a culture like the 2020s U.S., where no small number of people feel that their human rights are being violated if their egotism is not “validated” by strangers, it’s easy to forget what human rights abuses actually are about and why it was necessary to write the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Regular, ordinary people do horrendous things when the conditions are favorable and they fear the consequences of not joining in the collective crimes. We don’t want to think about it but we need to.
In John Gardner’s Grendel, the savage beast notes of man’s behavior toward man, “It was slightly ominous because of its strangeness-no wolf was so vicious to other wolves- “ and this is the tragic truth against which we all need to push. Calling out false moral equivalences is key to that task, and I appreciate how this podcast does that.
Hi Paul, I find your comment very interesting, because I studied Rwanda and Haiti at the doctoral level.
Apologies if I am misunderstanding or missing something, as I go into this lengthy but of course still incomplete (as there is too much to cover) reply:
It sounds like these examples from Rwanda and Haiti make you more in agreement with Sam. In contrast, my research on those situations is the primary reason I am very critical of Sam's take on Israel-Palestine: he is essentializing the groups (culturally and religiously) rather than analyzing the historical and political conditions that shape the situation, which is precisely what feeds never-ending cycles of violence. Even Christopher Hitchens, an anti-Zionist anti-theist of Jewish descent, was able to appreciate the plight of the Palestinians while still denouncing Islamic extremism, so I'm not sure why it is so difficult for Harris. As Hitch said, "I'm one of those people of Jewish descent who believes that Zionism would be a mistake even if there were no Palestinians."
As for Rwanda, the Hutu genocide of the Tutsis was organized by the French-backed Habyarimana regime. The Hutu Power ideology had been fomented for decades by the Catholic Church. The transition of Hutu and Tutsi from relatively fluid class categories into hardened racial identities was "gifted" by Belgian colonial race science.
When the Rwandan Patriotic Front exiles invaded from Uganda to put down the genocide, they took power and became victim-savior figures on the world stage. As the RPF began leading reprisal massacres against Hutus and installing a veritable Tutsi ethnostate, the world powers gave the victims of genocide a free pass. Conveniently, the RPF are also a major player in the brutal extraction of conflict minerals from the ever-destabilized Congo.
The major lesson is that a historically victimized group cannot be given a free pass to commit reprisals. The historical record can be used to construct Hutu and Tutsi nationalist projects, so some kind of common identity must be (re)disovered.
If there is a religion to blame here, it is Catholicism, but even that would be very reductive, just as the religious thesis is in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Truth and reconciliation committees have been important for de-essentializing these groups and trying to open a path forward. We need to see something similar in Israel-Palestine instead of one-sided polemics against religion (and just to be clear, I am a complete anti-fundamentalist when it comes to religion, all religions, but this is only one factor among many in the situation).
As for Haiti, the executions, massacres, and dismemberments in Haiti from 1991 to 1994 were committed by FRAPH, a US-backed paramilitary death squad led by General Raol Cedras and Emmanuel Toto Constant. They massacred thousands of members of Aristide's Fanmi Lavalas Party and now live in exile in the US and Panama. The US refused to extradite Cedras and refuses to open FRAPH's documents from their time as the ruling regime in Haiti.
At this time, some former Duvalierist macoutes, the terroristic secret police from the Papa and Baby Doc regimes, were also massacred by peasants as retribution for their many decades of inflicting torture and mutiliation and death on the Haitian peasantry. This is another vastly complex situation with internal and external factors that is irreducible to a simple cultural or religious explanation, but the Western eye frequently just sees Haitian psychopathology just as it frequently only sees Arab backwardness when looking at Palestine.
Knowing the geopolitics that shaped these nightmarish and ongoing situations in Rwanda and Haiti makes me logically and morally opposed to the idea that it's simply culture or religion that creates the conflict in Israel-Palestine. When Sam uses his favorite term "moral equivalence," what I hear is an obfuscation of the social, historical, and geopolitical realities at play, which would be the abysmal conditions in the West Bank and Gaza. To appropriate a favorite phrase of Sam's, these conditions are "crazy-making." If we could wave a magic wand to erase Hamas and even Islam itself from West Bank and Gaza, the apartheid would still need to end or else the social pathologies would continue to fester, just under new aesthetics.
Apologies again for the length of this reply. I tried to keep it as brief yet complete as possible and likely failed at both. Regards.
You should look up the Nanjing Massacre.
I find the swipe at denial of healthcare, and public safety for trans people (thinly dog-whistled as “people who feel their human rights are being violated if their egotism is not “validated” by strangers) as an unconscionably noxious straw man. Being assaulted, thrown out of hospitals, denied even ordinary (much less obviously trans-related health care), raped, murdered, having ordinary work and housing rights denied as a matter of law- simply for who people are born as- is exactly the same dehumanization that leads to atrocities. The very same groups that deny equal legal protection by law, and promote de facto violence against trans people by strangers ARE the same groups that promoted and GOT- jailing, systematic legally protected torture, mutilation and death penalty for lgbtq people, in Uganda.
The human rights violations against trans and gay (lgbtq) people in the US and the same people promoting legally sanctioned dehumanization for inborn traits, ARE the same people promoting atrocities on a grand scale elsewhere.
Shame on you for using intentional fallacies to promote a political agenda of acceptable rights violations, assault, torture and homicide- against your preferred group to hate, while hypocritically posing as someone who cares about the atrocities committed in the name of the bigoted dehumanization you yourself full-throatedly endorse.
Read the old testament and you will find plenty of these exact acts done in the name of a god, and commanded by as well, and done by Israel.
@@bitterroots7317 yes, not to mention plenty of terrorism and terrorist manifestos from the Jewish Lehi/Stern Gang during the founding years of Israel. And one of the founders became PM in 1983.
36:58. Sam, I’m sure you’ve read it, but I invite everyone to read Ordinary Men, about the Nazi killing squads in Eastern Europe. Their mission was also to move from town to town etc, and it is essentially the same process you are describing. The chilling part is they were very ordinary and otherwise “good” people in that society.
Even Nazis kissed their wives and kids good night.
They didn’t want to be the person that wasn’t participating, leaving the nasty work for others to complete
We are all otherwise "good" people, except when we deal with the "other". Jeez, I never needed to read books to understand that.
I recently saw american media, otherwise a very humanistic media, celebrate ingenious tricks of ukrainian forces to trap and bu*n alive many russian soldiers.
Those russian soldiers were obviously the "other" soldiers. So were the civilians in hiroshima and nagasaki. We all, in our own frames of references, do find justifications for doing many things that we otherwise would not agree with.
@@saimbhat6243dont invade other homes. Oh you want a peaceful war lol
@@Dan16673 nothing justifies the horrific actions of torture and killing
Richard Dawkins did a video covering some of this today. I was hoping you would, too. Love your content, Mr. Harris. Keep it coming.
Where can we find that?
I can’t find it
Can you provide a link?
Thank god, at least Dawkins is still in touch with reality.
@@MS-gx1tk lFnfDYHnghg
I am disgusted by anyone that thinks what these monsters did on October 7 was justified in any way.
Justified, no. Explainable, yes. Everyone knows Hamas are monsters. But do you really know so little of the history of the area that you cannot see a single reason why this might happen?
@@theepiphany3560 I know a little history and I understand the rage. The part that disgusts me is the barbaric sadistic actions taken by these monsters against innocent civilians. No valid excuse for it. None!
@@theepiphany3560 There is a "reason" why everything happens. Whether or not that reason is justified is the question.
Not justified but expected, given the situation.
Hamas didn't exist until 39years of Israeli occupation and killing . we're not saying that Hamas are not barbaric, we're just saying that They're in a defensive position and Israel is in an offensive position. what Sam is doing is hypocrthical and unfaire. he is focusing on the moral equavalence and without adressing the geopolitical picture and not showing any concerne about Palestinian civilian deaths. @@dogsandyoga1743
Thank you for sharing the full podcast.
It's not
@@sg23148 I know.
Thank you, Sam!
Hi Sam, I am an Israeli from Netivot near Gaza. Sadly I feel like your guest gave a lot of distorted views regarding the issue. I would love to talk to you about it as I feel your guest was only fed information from a very specific faction of Israeli society.
The suffering that was met to those children and female captives are unthinkable. I can't stop thinking about it, and hope I'm wrong about the captives.
I don't just enjoy what your doing, I Love it! I would like to see more video with the pod cast though... Peace!
That's been my beef with Sam for years is that he doesn't seem to enjoy going on video, despite it being much easier to follow. For this reason, I often watch other channels who bring Sam on.
🥴🥴🥴
Sam I’m your biggest fan, but for crying out loud make these discussions live in front of a camera. You’re audience will grow exponentially, especially with channel as mine which try to help by promoting your content.
Indeed. Making the discussions live would grow his podcast, thereby spreading these important ideas and conversations.
If they were in front of a camera, people would tell him to wear a nicer suit. Listen to the conversation.
I’d love to see beautiful, musical visualizers over all these conversations. Maybe with overlayed, repetitive beats like most Twitchers have constantly playing. It’d be so cozy & relaxing 👏
Yes
@@Refurb963 Seeing the person talk makes it more relatable and engaging.
Thank you.
Thank you, Sam! ❤
I met a stateless Kuwaiti up north in UK - meshare(?) and you helped him, so therefore you helped someone finding peace of mind. That's good.
Israeli society is unfortunately not a "heavily armed society"..there are strict restriction on who can and cant cary a gun..90% of the ppl cant.. it seems like a change is unfolding
You people are on crack. Thats your take? Get guns so you can protect ill gotten goods?
Is there anywhere I can get the full podcast without subscribing? Torrent download or something?
I will seek to find the full podcast
Brilliant conversation!Thank you Sam!
Sam..it was very well organised and so is the "chaos" of civilians from Gaza entering israel...
How many were they ?
What makes you Say it wasn't spontaneous but prepared ?
I have a question for Harris' subscribers: can I download the episodes onto a USB stick and listen in my car (like I used to do before he put his episodes behind a pay wall)?
I have no problem paying Sam for his works, but I don't want to buy ACCESS to them, I want to BUY (and OWN) them.
I emailed this question to his site years ago and never got an answer. Again, I don't want access to a digital warehouse of streams, I want to buy and own the episodes outright, and have them stored on my devices for playback whenever I want, like times or places I don't have internet access.
It can't be that he's worried that I will duplicate and share them, because he's already allowing his subscribers to share full episodes with non-subscribers (streamed only, as I understand it).
Any help would be appreciated. I value his opinions on most matters. He brings me back to sanity on some issues that get away from me.
I'm not able to find any option for downloads.
Though it does offer the option to download an RSS feed that links with your podcast app, so perhaps you can download episodes through such an app? Not sure.
Welcome back sir
yeah the whole scene of oct 7 is like a horror movie. You need to be a certain type of person to kill a stranger that didnt do anything to you like that. its pure horror tbh.
My imagination is too damn good to listen to that. its pure horror. omg... bombing people is one, but this... picking up whatever they find to decapitate someone... thats horror. thats like some SAW level of grotesque ..
Like you make it sound as if it was the worst thing that happened in the history of human kind. Go look at what the Nazis or Japan did during WW II. And they weren't weak people who grew up in an open air prison.
Not like that hasn't ben happening to Palestinians for a 75 yeRs
@@xyzmediaandentertainment8313L
@@xyzmediaandentertainment8313
You’re clearly mentally challenged.
nothing scarier in this world right now than islam
Depends where you live. It doesn't concern me in the Nordics much. Failed integration of immigrants and refugees is a much more pressing issue among a dozen others.
@@hartyewh1true, but people with medieval violent ideas live amongst us and the secret services have thousends ands thousends of the dangerous ones on their black list. Too many to watch 24/7. That's a 'minor' issue.
@@hartyewh1And those immigrants, which culture they from? What religion they follow?
@@hartyewh1 The failed integration is almost exclusively due to islam culture and background.
All others immigration waves did integrate correctly with time, the one who doesn't and even has a long-term impact on the quality of life and security of the host country is the muslims one.
@@elsenm3965 With time as in the next generation is happening with the Syrian refugees as well. In my work I've met several and Islam has nothing to do with it and many are rather secular or culturally islamic instead of religously. They just have very limited support to get into employment, learn the language etc since most of those services were and are too limited for such a sudden jump in the amount of people needing them.
Anyone know what/where the picture for this video is from?
Thanks
That's odd... I've heard at least a dozen Jewish intellectuals who know as much, or more, about this issue than anyone else, and I haven't heard a single one "praise" Hamas, or say anything good about them at all. Where are these people? Who are they?
They don't have to praise them. Just no say anything about them. It is in the framing
they are likely off the radar of those who use "whom" wrongly... ffs.
@@memoryhero That was sure worth pointing out. Did you have anything resembling an actual argument of substance or just posturing? I'll fix the typo so that you can sleep tonight. iff u kan reed thiz u shud no dat poenting ouut tipos iz lemp dik week, moooron.
@@Alnivol666 False. Every single one has condemned the action. I think it may be more of indoctrination preventing some from hearing. It's quite common.
@@kropotkinbeard1 sweet!
There's a reason why the words "Islam" and "terrorism" are virtually synonymous.
Excellent
There is no good solution aside from education and atheism. See you in 10000 years.
I'd argue rationality and healthy skepticism rather than simply "atheism".
I don't trust atheists either. The Soviets were a thing. I'm for a strong constitutional democracy with secular government and public education. There must be a national civics course of study that emphasizes liberal values.
As an atheist it is sad to see these kind of extremist comments - a genocide of palestinians is happening as we speak. Diplomats and govt strategists around the world, along with the UN condemn it as a totally unnecessary and stupid way to respond to terrorism. There are steps that could be taken right now to decrease deaths on both sides
@@dogsandyoga1743yeah. There was a time when Christians were called atheists pejoratively. We need to focus on skepticism and observations of reality.
@36 min
Harris's line:
Jihad functioning as a bug light
for attracting psychopaths..
was spot on & some
funny sheeit..
With everything that’s going on, and the clear-as-day historical and political backdrop of where we are, I’m really struggling to understand why you are pushing this moral relativism angle. Is it just opportunistic, and you’re capitalising on the moment to give your previous work some I-told-you-so relevance?
Seriously reducing this type of thing to religious intolerance is baffling. And in the current climate just adding to the chorus of support for really dubious stuff.
Ps huge fan of yours and all the work you do on waking up. Really scratching my head on this one though.
Outstanding and clear minded synopsis of the true reason behind the misery of Gaza, West Bank, Syria, Yemen, etc. etc. etc.
It's not only the Kibbutz that were targeted but also cities like Ofakim and Sderot which are non "agricultural cooperatives"
Sam is finally back talking about one of my favourite topics, and it's a topic that Sam excels at. It's unfortunate that a topic this important and timely is behind a paywall.
For the 1st time today i heard him say at the beginning if you cannot afford a subscription then send an email and you will be given one. I have pondered the value of having access to the rest of his talks quite a number of times over the last year. But as i have an unrecoverable injury (that limits my activities and income) i couldn't commit to the 8 pound a month subscription. So i will send this email i think, as i am a genuine case and would sincerely appreciate his full content. Maybe this is an option for others if they are aware of it.
You are wasting your time friend if you aren't even listening
@@Mac-qi5nzwhat are you talking about?
Read his correspondence with chomsky
If you can't afford it Sam offers you free subscription. Stop whining
Ty
This was a great discussion 😊
If you took religion out of Islam and judged it just based on a social construct of how to run a society, it would be judged to be one of the most depraved organizational ideas in the history of humanity. But people feel they can apologize for Islam because it has something to do with worshipping the divine.
You can't take religion out of islam. That is like saying "take life out of humanity" or "take food out of spaghetti." It is inherently part OF islam, ffs. Islam's whole being is a religious reality. The very reason that people think it has meaning/authority is because they believe it is what their god wants. And that is the very problem. With anything else, the substance and reasonableness of beliefs are scrutinized. With religion, it is given a free pass from such analysis, both by the believers, and by most people outside of it, via the "Everyone is entitled to their religious beliefs" doctrine. They get to HAVE the beliefs. They do NOT get to have them without them being criticized. Far too many people lack the slightest courage, to attack any wrongful religious beliefs, and that is because they know it opens the door to their own beliefs being addressed, and they know their beliefs are also ridiculous and often dangerous.
@@slyjokerg yes you can.
@@chavruta2000 You are either incapable of understanding the nature of it, or you are being utterly intellectually dishonest.
@@slyjokerg or too busy to explain it to you.
@@chavruta2000 That is a rather convenient and unsurprising cop out. LOL
What about the logic of Likud and their stated goals?
this is the real elephant in the room.
Thank you Sam
The most common criticisms of politics:
Corruption: Politics is often seen as being corrupt, with politicians and other powerful figures using their positions for personal gain. This can lead to a lack of trust in government and a sense of disillusionment among citizens.
Inefficiency: Government bureaucracies can be slow and inefficient, making it difficult to get things done. This can be frustrating for citizens and businesses alike.
Gridlock: Political polarization can often lead to gridlock, where the two major parties are unable to agree on anything, even on important issues. This can prevent the government from functioning effectively.
Special interests: Critics argue that politicians are too beholden to special interests, such as lobbyists and wealthy donors. This can lead to policies that benefit the wealthy and powerful at the expense of ordinary citizens.
Lack of accountability: Politicians can be difficult to hold accountable for their actions. This can lead to a sense of impunity, where politicians feel like they can do whatever they want without consequences.
It is important to note that not everyone agrees with these criticisms of politics. Some people believe that the political system is working as well as it can and that the benefits of democracy outweigh the costs. However, the criticisms listed above are common among many people, and they reflect a growing sense of dissatisfaction with politics in many countries around the world.
Sam, some of your books have had the most profoundly positive impact on my life.
That said, I'm incredibly disappointed in the lack of transparency in this conversation. The tragic events in Isreal on the 7th and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza that has unfolded since stem from a long history of occupation that violates international humanitarian law.
You are able to speak with such clarity when critiquing religious extremism, yet appear to either not recognize, or ignore it when its right in front of you. You talk at length about how the dehumanization of our fellow human beings creates more suffering, yet do not appear to include Palestinians in that definition.
Human shields or not the civilian death toll is in the tens of thousands already. Roughly four thousand are children. This is not justifiable or proportionate even under the circumstances. Every 1/3 buildings in Gaza have been flattened in 4 weeks. Are we really to believe that every one of those buildings was being used by Hamas? In a small strip of land with of dense population of 2.2 Million? Given the casualties, The burden of proof is on Isreal to prove these are legitimate targets under international law. Furthermore the use of White Phosphorous is also incredibly inhumane and against international law.
Many Palestinian journalists reporting on the ground have themselves been targeted by air strikes. This 4 week period has seen more journalist deaths then any other conflict for the last 30 years, with high UN staff and emergency aid transits all killed in Isreal's indiscriminate bombing campaign. Surely that proves this is not a targeted response that adheres to international law and protects civilians.
20:00 - Nobody on ivy league college campuses are protesting in favour of massacre. These protests have been almost entirely peaceful with few arrests. Many of these protests/marches/demonstrations have been attended by and even organised by Jewish communities who oppose the indiscriminate bombing of the densely populated Gaza strip.
None of this is to minimize or downplay the suffering caused on Oct the 7th, but war crimes committed then do not justify war crimes being committed by hamas or the IDF now.
As someone who has written books on morality which I have found incredibly helpful; I find it disappointment to see your total lack of transparency when considering the crucial context at play here.
Netanyahu as you said, was using IDF to further his political aims by helping right-wing settlers expand and thereby lost sight of protecting other, potentially vulnerable communities. I'm surprised that civilians aren't armed in these outlier settlements.
The settlements were almost exclusively left wing liberals, many who were friends with Palestinians, who then killed and slaughtered them. Israel also doesn’t have a second amendment, at least for now. Regardless, there’s many important questions that need to be answered because the fact that the CIA and Mossad didn’t see them rehearsing this operation for two years seems hard to believe. Regardless, besides it being some of the most sickening evil I’ve ever seen, it’s put me into a state of depression and fear like I’ve never felt before. It’s not just the killing, it was the most sadistic and evil ways they killed innocent people.
Take A Moment
Thank you again Sam
I have always been a learning guy 1:14
As usual your work is vital
Stay Safe
Stay Free
Peace and love etc No god's required or seen in my foxhole for 40 years.
28yrs in the RAF.
church and state have no idea how we, the people feel.
The game is over. That's how empires end.
5:47
I will email you for your kind offer to membership.
Thanks Sam and your team
Thanks Sam!
I heard the call they were discussing and I disagree with Graeme’s highly optimistic interpretation of the family’s reaction. They were utterly jubilant. Yes, they wanted the son to come back, but nowhere was there any sense that he’d done something wrong. I can’t believe Wood’s take on that point
Is that in the second half?
I didn’t hear jubilation in that call. I just heard a family wanting their son to come home safely.
Yeah that was a weird take.
Sam, please do a video podcast. That is all.
It has been the same since the crusader. I like listening to 20 year olds now debating the mid east , I only remember blood in the sand in 90'. It has always been this way and will always be that way. What happened to Ukraine?
I mean, why stop with the crusades? What about the muslim conquest of N. Africa, the Middle East and Southern Europe which preceded the crusades? Or the Roman Empire before that? Or the Greek and Persian Empires before that, and the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, or the Bronze Age tribal wars before that?
Violent conflict is the human norm. liberal ideals of human rights are relatively new.
Exactly. Just think of Ukrainian Bucha and atrocities committed there by Russians.
Yah these 20 something year olds don’t remember growing up when multiple suicide bombings were a daily news story out of Israel.
Israel is unfortunately a victim of its own success in that regard
I’ve listened to the whole episode and have just come over here to thank Sam for his work, as always.
Thank you Sam. Everybody needs to hear this. Enough with these naive and often hateful “free palestine” people.
So you are pretending to be naive now?
25:33 This is the 1st time I am hearing over even 12 hrs., let alone, b/w 12 and 24 hours. I thought it was around 6 -8 hours of attack. I heard one Gazan tell police on video interrogation here on YT, that after doing damage at one place they waited like 1.5 hrs. (for something, I don't remember what) and then again later a 2 hr. wait. If it is true that in some areas it went b/w 12 and 24 hours, that interview is making more sense. Why didn't the military rush in there with helicopters~?? Something more than the attack itself is very wrong with this picture if 12-24 hours is correct.
Sam. I would love you to debate norm finkelstein.
Remember what happened when Sam tried to debate Noam Chomsky? Nothing much has changed. He still thinks that Israel has nothing but good intentions, and collateral damage is just an unfortunate consequence of any war blah blah blah.
The quintessential self-hating Jew
Norm: "Here is indisputable evidence illustrating every way you are wrong about Palestine."
Sam: "hmm"
Sam Harris you are very WISE
As an Israeli, it's clear to me that Wood talked with only one side of the political isle. Talk to Uri Milstein and you'll have a better understanding of what happened cos- the army was diverted to the west bank- is the shallowest explanation possible and questionable if even true- there is ONE division dedicated to Gaza at all times and many more dedicated to the WB as it is a much larger, more intricate scene.
I was skeptical of his comment, too - the idea that defense was an either/or proposition- either defend the border with Gaza OR assist religious settlers in their annexation efforts in the West Bank. I’m pretty sure the IDF is large enough to handle both tasks.
I am one of those too afraid to take advantage of the free subscribership. I feel a lot of shame being poor, and I don't want to take advantage of charity. I love what I can get for free, but when it is offered in lieu of money, it cripples my remaining ego.
That's silly, and Sam would tell you to your face not to be ashamed, and encourage you to ask for a subscription. That's why it's there.
I got one, it’s super easy and sam has an employee who gives them out daily to anyone who emails. No reason not to
Your ego is the only thing standing in your way of the subscription. I got the subscription when I was very poor, too. If you wouldn't judge someone for the dollars in their account, don't judge yourself like that. Let it go. Just get that damn thing! Right now! Go!
Keep up the stellar work, Sam.
…and here is the crux 34:04, the moral equivalence… if Hamas kills 1400, and Israel kills 1400, their is a moral equivalence, however brutal. But Israel killing two, twenty, a hundred a month, being attacked, and then killing 10,000 isn’t a moral equivalent, it’s genocide!!!
I’m not a fan of Islam, Hamas or even the Palestinians for that matter, but what this podcast fails to even acknowledge is that this is a religious war, it’s not about land, resources or even retribution, it’s about Islam hating the Jews, and the Jews dehumanizing Islam. Pretending either side has some higher moral standing is simply propaganda!!!
NO Israel has the moral high ground. Your argument is sophistry a new version of the Dresden defense. Hamas targets civilians and the IDF wages a war with the exact loss of life such a war would produce in an urban setting. This is the sophistry of conflation.
It's impossible to reason with the side that doesnt want to other side to exist.
I feel nauseous listening to the description of the attack
There is a six quintillion pound elephant in the room. Everyone sees it, but almost all are stupefied to point it out. We should rally around the brave public figures who aren’t afraid to poke the elephant.
I forgot my glasses. Might pointing out the elephant you mean since I've been told there are several?
@@hartyewh1 all forms of super natural make believe.
A foreign nation warping western media, military operations, and political outcomes in its favor as if these countries had no sovereignty at all.
Israel is to America what America is to nearly everyone else.
@@MrBelmontcain The solution to the situation needn't consider religion at all. We can leave that for the historians, but a political solution consists of security and prosperity and the nutbags can be pushed aside with, admittedly, some serious effort.
@MrBelmontcain how sure are you if the world would be better without religion?
Good discussion of the rationalisation of violence through theology and religion. Thanks for covering Hamas' attacks on Israeli civilians.
At 11:30 he says settlers had been taking land in Gaza with the help of the IDF. How is that possible?
He was talking about the West Bank settlements, not Gaza.
A recent poll before Oct 7th by the Washington Institute had shown a majority of Gazans support Hamas
I think it is interesting that Sam brings up MyLai. He does it in the context of the fellow who proudly calls his parents to boast about his actions and then the conversation moves on to the parents reaction etc. Sam questions what that conversation might have been like if, say, a young american soldier had called home and how that conversation might have gone. Well, in a civilised society like the USA maybe the parents might have rebuked their son for partaking in such a massacre - do you think? Actually the whole of the USA had a chance to have a say in what that "ciivilised society" may have done in response to the killing of circa 500 unarmed men, women, children and infant civilians just because William Calley felt like it was a nice day for a massacre. Lieutenant Calley and 25 other soldiers were charged with premeditated murder (but also including attrocities such as gang rapes of women and children as young as 12yo). The result was that Calley was the only person to be found guilty out of 26 soldiers charged. His life sentence was commuted very quickly to 3 years house arrest by none other than the President of the USA. The really good news, though, is that none of the folks charged were jihadists. They were good young americans fighting to save the free world from communism - apparently.
Sam also has a familiar vent about Hamas hiding behind helpless civilians to fire their rockets - so blame them for the 4000 child deaths in Gaza and still counting in the period since October 7. I guess then that we can swing back to My Lai and say that the Viet Kong were hiding in tunnels and using helpless villagers as human shields - and then follow the distorted logic that My lai was somehow an inevitable consequence? In my several decades of life on this planet my observation is that it takes very little encouragement for seemingly "normal" civilised humans of any ethnic origin or religious persuasion to revert to unfathomable acts of cruel savagery, and they often dont need a "cause" to justify their behaviour. I dont know if a 2 state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict is any longer possible - but we should all be looking to our leaders to strive for lasting, meaningful peace - and not a scenario where one side just slowly disappears or disintegrates over the passage of time.
Big difference is that the US soldiers DID have to go through the courts and the public DID become aware of exactly what happened and rallied against the war because of it. Palestinians WANTED it to happen and handed out candy afterwards, spitting on the corpses of raped women…and they still support it in huge numbers. The Palestinian public isn’t going to rally against a war their elected military started, because they agree with it and support it. Your analogy is ridiculous
Anyone notice Sam has never talked to/debated a pro-Palestinian scholar on the subject?
Who would you suggest?
What's the point? Their arguments are weak. Go watch what happened when Coleman Hughes did that.
I did. Coleman kept repeating elementary level arguments you find on Twitter ''mOrAl eQuiValeNcy'' and the scholar kept digging deeper with facts and history that Coleman has never read in his life. It was embarrassing to watch for anyone who has followed this conflict longer than a month. @@mrpopo8298
Jewish scholars, Ilan Pappe and Norman Finkelstein are good starting points.@@ED-TwoZeroNine
@@mrpopo8298 Both Coleman Hughes and Sam Harris are historically-illiterate.
I had been waiting for your view on what happened in Israel. Thank you for sharing it!
Did Sam ever talk about Netenyahu invoking the Bible and the story of the Amalekites to justify their war? I would love to know his opinion as a fellow atheist.
No, he ignores those statements and blames everything on Islamic Jihadist. He is very biased against Palestinian people and is quick to support apartheid state.
Newtons Law of Western Civilisation: Every political inaction is followed by a grotesque overreaction.
Podcast starts at 3:35
Actually it starts at 0:52 guys
Don't skip the house keeping and introduction bro wtf
Housekeeping is the best part. Aside from the music lol
👏👏👏
Thank you !
Thank you Sam❤ Love you bro
Dim wit monkey brain
Highly asymmetric ideologies, tactics, and goals.
I appreciate this guy watching the videos so I don’t have to
I signed up but find no way to be subscribed
After watching Sam on other podcasts which has a mixed audience in the comments and I see some people unfairly insulting him, I love comming back to the main channel and seeing everyone love and support him 😂
Sam, you're very precise on every topic.!
Jews will always have a home and friend in India, more than any other country in the world can ever offer.
wow.
it seems the majority of new settlers who claim the Palestinian land as their own in the West Bank are mostly from either Russian or Ukrainian backgrounds. They're expressing a level of entitlement not afforded them in their home countries - and brining some negative behaviours from their former home culture with them as well. These "new" immigrants appeared in large numbers, are more "right-wing" than their European or "First Exodus" predecessors, and appear to be helping prop-up Netanyahu. After the Abraham Accords (having left out Palestinians) ... the Palestinians had some sympathy from the outside world UNTIL October 7 thanks to Hamas. Nothing excuses Hamas for these atrocities but the entire chain of events makes sense.
Everything appears to you without any facts 60% of Israel’s are not white and are from Middle Eastern countries or never left Israel for thousands of years
Sickening. Another reminder of what we are capable of
Yeah what sam harris is capable of
No what Islamic extremists are capable of
There was a ceasefire prior to October 7th...
Honestly? A little disappointed :( I don't know if it's in the full version of this podcast or if it will be in the next solo podcast but I was hoping for a LOT more on the "moral confusion" you alluded to, Sam.
Welcome back to your best subject, Sam. We’ve missed you 💙
Blokes been here the whole time you trump voting dead shut, from australia
thank you sam
Sam should debate Norman Finkelstein.
Muslim community have a BIG problem with these fanatic islamists..this ideology have gone deep in some govs. etc..this is a major issue for the muslim world and rest of us pf course..but WE CANT do much..this is a problem that muslim community have to deal with so to speak..we can help them to fight ths but its realy them who must educate and what ever,to push this ideology back..thats what i belive
For anyone who needs a summary: Oct 7th bad, so Israel is justified in whatever response.
I anxious wait for an interview of a survivor from Gaza speaking of those dead children.
How can Sam still say Israel is taking "great pains" to avoid harming innocents?
He can say that for a very simple reason: If Israel actually wanted to harm civilians, there would be 800,000 dead, not 8,000.
The answer to your question is actually very easy to understand this once you realize that Israel is capable of complete genocide of Palestinians in a single day.
They have the ability to turn all of Gaza into rubble in a single day.
They don't do that, (and instead put their own soldiers at risk) for a very simple reason: They are in fact, taking great pains to avoid harming innocents.
@@TheEnergyBlueprint I appreciate you saying word for word what Sam has said. So do you simply mistrust the numbers coming out of the region showing the percentage of victims being women/children?
Putin has done far less damage, by comparison.
@@davecunningham579 If TEB were to trust the numbers, & if the numbers are 100% accurate, a yes/no answer to your question fails to refute his point.
Israel has dropped the equivalent of nearly 2 Hiroshima Bombs on Gaza....yet only 10k deaths
(for the record, the two atomic bombs killed between 175,000-250,000 instantly)
There is your proof right there
@@davecunningham579
1) Yes, never trust anything Hamas says
2) Half the population are child. Impossible some won't die.
3) Hamas does everything it can ensure maximum civilian deaths.
Currently religion is not even in the top five issues regarding Israel-Palestine. Historically it is important to understand and no one murders babies without a religious impulse, but for the solution we might as well forget about religion. Israel needs security and Palestine needs a future worth having. The religious fundamentalists are indeed a problem, but dealing with them needn't be concerned with religion.
It is concerned with religion. Much of the hatred of Jews and general anti-Israel propaganda is promulgated by religious teachers in mosques and on children's programming. Can you imagine if instead of Disney cartoons, children in the states were brought up watching programs that glorified the killing of America's enemies?
Well said, I’d add to this by saying what is Israel to do when radicals want you eradicated.
I would ask this: if Hamas were to surrender, would this stop?
@@ZINGERS-gt6pc They can either answer in kind as they are doing now and it's mostly justified or they can try to bring the conflict to an end by winning over the palestinian majority that cannot be compared to ISIS like Hamas and similar organizations. The history, trauma, age and education puts the palestinian people at a major disadvantage in being a proactive part of the solution while their "leaders" wish for the opposite so Israel needs to find ways to make peace with them directly. Planning for and explaining in detail a safe and prosperous future and how to achieve is a big part of it.
@ZINGERS-gt6pc so Israel is not eradicating Palestine????
@@fabioq6916nope because they're would have done ages ago, but they settled with borders
Hey Sam you should talk to destiny at some point. I think it would be an interesting conversation.
How is it possible to discuss the utter lack of defense forces and reactions to Hamas terrors Oct 7 by Israeli forces, and not even mention how that might have been purposeful neglect by Netanyahu? Not saying it was, but why avoid that possiblity entirely? Isn't it true that the electorate rallies around the leader in place during war?
What’s his motive? This attack will surely destroy his legacy entirely.
@@Mwasser People keep saying Net future is over. I always thought politicians that were in trouble started wars to detract from their screw ups and force the electorate to rally around ones leadership in times of trouble.
God, this is the only guy that can describe the atrocities and horrific imagery, and also use the most ambiguous language. Fcking have some balls and say it how it is, unacceptable
Replace unacceptable for unforgivable
I think he is a little desensitized covering ISIS and Jihad all these years. This sort of violence is kind of familiar to him. But he said the videos were horrific in that these people were just living every day life and suddenly murdered were more disturbing than the staged highly planned video from ISIS.
@@alQarafiIt may as well be demonic because jihadists do not 1. Operate by reason 2. Have empathy 3. Understand even their own actions 4. Care about humanity. All they care about, literally, is slavery slavery and murder
@@alQarafiand not just slavery but sex slavery. That is what jihad is
Sam, I've always found you to be rational, so you should maintain a rational inquiry. Emotions shouldn't obscure the reality. Let's consider the whole scenario, break it down into separate parts, analyze each one individually, and then draw a conclusion:
There are two hostile nations living on each side of the border, one as the occupier, and the other as the occupied declared by International Court of Justice .
The occupier is known for its strong military and intelligence power.
The occupied nation has been frustrated for decades and is militarily weak.
A terror group from the occupied territory, armed with only a handful of guns, crosses the border into the occupier's territory, which has a strong military, and commits atrocities for hours long without facing any resistance.
In light of these facts, the conclusion could be that " Omission amounts into action "
The occupier's negligence does not justify the killing of thousands of innocent people. Even if such a level of negligence were showed by Israel's own internal law enforcement agencies inside their own state , it could lead to their own people turning against each other through looting and chaos.
Why are one people occupied in the 1st place. Pushing this narrative makes it seem like it is the weak against the strong without showing why the weak are weak and the strong are strong.
Israel has thought wars for its existence.
Arabs have not.
The whole situation is Arab envy.
This is how propaganda works, it takes bits of truth and creats its own myths. If you want to know how occupation look like you can study the actions of Nazi-Germany, Soviet Union or what Russia is doing in Ukraine now. This might help to discern what is occupation and what not.
@@valentinann7823
The main point I want to make is that if a terrorist group, armed with just a few guns, crosses the border of a state known for its formidable military power, enters its territory, commits atrocities for hours without facing any resistance, why shouldn't we conclude that 'omission amounts to action'? It is evident that these atrocities were intentionally allowed to happen. Netanyahu is cunning
International Court of Justice has no authority. They can't declare anything.
Well put.
I had a zero-rate "scholarship" but lost all the info in the chaosphere of non-professional free e-mail accounts. I signed back up, and REALLY am looking forward to the other half of this one...How anyone gets in a "beef" with Sam Harris is something that actually amuses me. Yes, yes, an intellectually and morally dominant temperament...but someone who so clearly takes all the "woowoo" of Buddhism and the like as seriously as a mystic. I really would rather that I were hearing the same critically decisive, yet reasonable and empathic message and open discussion in this matter from many other voices...I think honestly it is a very difficult minefield to navigate, and if one happens to be even residually Jewish....oh boy. Anyway, the way Europe is going, people in those nations are in a desperate way for this conversation, no matter how hard or even dangerous.