Wayland's Saga Of Setting A Window Icon
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- čas přidán 22. 06. 2024
- You might think that setting a Window Icon is a simple operation and it is but that doesn't mean there won't be months and months of bikeshedding to see it happen.
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Wow, 3h of raw recording! You deserved that dinner 😄
This has been an unexpectedly long debate, but thanks to numerous people we eventually managed to get it done, and people will have window icons on Linux again soon (after the next w-p release, which is what the implementations are waiting for).
Honestly I'm impressed with how compressed the conversation was. I had expected this to be a multi year discussion.
@@BrodieRobertson I did my absolute best to not make this a multi-year event and push for a resolution. In the end the MR also inadvertently tested the Wayland spec submission process itself, which got some refinements and clarifications as a result. With some luck, future discussions will be a bit more focused 🙂
@@MatthiasKlumpp I certainly hope future discussions can be smoother but with a cross desktop project bike shedding is almost inevitable. But I hope everyone realises that at the end of the day you're all working towards a better future
Are LottieFiles and SVG Icons supported now or are they not?
@@TremereTT SVG files are "supported" if they are part of the theme and a stock icon is requested, or if the client renders them and submits a pixel buffer. Animations are possible in theory, but the compositor might block that behavior. We also found no application that actually (tried to) use animations ever, even though it works on X11.
Gnome joining discussions just to complain about something they won't ever use: Challenge Impossible
Matthias: Challenge Accepted.
@@thingsiplay *Sebastian
Yeah, I find that very confusing. If you do not care and won't ever implement it, why bother even discussing it with them? Of course even if you do not plan on implementing it, your opinion should still matter, but I see no reason to try to hinder the protocol's progression for pretty much no reason.
@@yorimiruswhy? Opinions shouldn’t always matter…
I think you mean "Gnome *not* joining discussions just to complain about something they won't ever use challenge (impossible)"
Why is Gnome participating in Wayland anymore at this point? They should just fork the protocol, replace the first character with a G and ... oh wait... maybe not...
I genuinely couldn't stop laughing about that comment
This joke is so good 😂😂😂😂
Happyland
You know... Sebastian Wick deserves some credit. He behaved so poorly that he got everyone else to put aside their differences to team up against him. He single handedly stopped the massive essay wars.
The true hero of the story :D
It's weird to me how some GNOME devs seem to both want to do their own thing independently from the rest of the Linux community, meanwhile also wanting to control common protocols to conform to their specific needs and philosophy.
If you want to do your own thing, then let the rest of the community do theirs…
We shouldn't really be having people doing their own thing on the level of gnome, especially in linux which has serious mantainence problems, as most foss devs are not paid
Because they know that if they don't their desktop will die in obscurity as everyone will opt to develop for the standards that the majority of desktops support.
MacOS-like desktop tries to control common protocol to their needs. Jeez I wonder where they are getting their philosophy from
@@JohnSmith-lc1ml It's hardly MacOS-like at all. If it were MacOS-like it would a least be a functional desktop experience rather than a half baked tablet operating system wannabe.
@@mckendrick7672 Oh please don't make it look like macos has a functional desktop
We could make 4 seasons, one movie, and two spin-offs out of the Wayland protocols gitlab.
Has somebody started counting how many words have been typed in the Wayland protocols gitlab?
Four main releases, one mega-fork and two sub-branches
Five. We can make five seasons.
And one crappy game
There's gotta be a way to scrape out a live action.
One thing I've learn from wayland issue is that if you don't interact and completely ignore the one guy from gnome it gets merged as soon as it get, but if you commit the mistake of interacting with him o God forgive
GNOME devs: "The apps should just define their own protocol!"
The gitlab page should play a cheesy 80s sitcom jingle whenever a Wayland-protocols issue is opened, and a laugh track audio clip when a comment is added.
now that's a worth watching sitcom
[slap bass intensifies]
Someone needs to make a Firefox addon for this. TAKE MY MONEY
the best thing about being in the linux community is there is always someting to entertain you every day
Open source and free as in free bear entrateinment!
Vinland saga❌
Wayland saga✅
Wayland development discussions remind me of old forum arguments where people wrote giant essays feeling the need to prove the other wrong with each reply, leading to endless back and forth and trying to get the GOTCHA moments about semantics.
I was 8 years old back then, and nothing changed it seems.
Only difference is that wayland is something of importance to all linux users (which are a lot, since 4% of the market share is literally hundred of millions of people)
Nothing changed since Usenet
The more things change the more they stay the same
GNOME always showstopper and party pooper. I thought this was a meme, but in every case I look at, its true. Also props to Matthias for reacting professionally and answering every point with patience.
What a wild ride this was. Thank you Brodie for covering all of this (young) history. It shows how complicated even the simplest thing can be in software development. They have to hit it right the first time, so I can see why everyone is nervous. Besides GNOME. GNOME has no business in discussing this, if they don't want to implement it anyway. I hope soon KDE becomes the default DE for most important distributions...
as far as im aware it mostly is, or a custom DE like cinnamon or cosmic. the only distros I know of that use gnome by default are ubuntu and RHEL based distros. as far as I can tell most people use debian based, like mint and pop_os, or arch based, which is mostly manjaro which is kde or one where you choose the de as part of the install, like arch.
grammarly is very mad at me and I'm not going to fix anything, in fact I'm going to un-fix it capitalizing grammarly out of spite
@@Wither_Strikewe're talking about important distros. Manjaro and similar are not in that conversation, not even same universe.
Important distros, that's redhat, suse, ubuntu and maybe debian.
Redhat, suse and canonical have money, lots of money and their business users have money, lots of money. Where they choose to invest, that's important. All of them are all in on gnome. They pay developers to work on gnome and they have developers on payroll to work on other projects where they can also push for what they want and what they want is gnome. That's why gnome and gnome devs get to act as they do.
Debian is also up there, because canonical leeches off them and every time ubuntu diverges from debian it costs them money. Other distros don't really have that much influence.
true, they are unbelievable . They are a niche of a niche and they talk like they could just force developers to comply like they were microsoft.
The same thing is true with server side decorations. Developers dont want to make their own decorations.
Sebastian Wick is not even trying to be constructive. Why wouldn't they just remove him from this repo, so he can't derail conversations and start needless fights? And replace him with someone from GNOME who actually cares.
And I feel like people are calling out the 'tone' when I think there was nothing wrong with it. Some FOSS devs should grow a thicker skin and not try to interpret everything as an insult. It makes discussions and collaborations a lot more productive if we always assume the best intentions. It's even more important in text, where 'tone' is not even there, and we need to imply it from the words.
I do not like swick based on how he comes across in many of these discussions BUT he is one of the people driving the HDR support on Wayland and I do appreciate his efforts on that front
@@thialfi2289 Thanks for the insight. It's good to know he does net positive contributions as well.
For that matter, some developers genuinely should get harassed out of projects
I think removing him is a bit extreme, but I'd say having to remind him about not impersonating a voting member is cause for action.
@@Djhg2000Honestly, given his other "overstepping incidents" over the past bit, he _should_ be removed.
Ok I want the 3 hours director's cut of this video now.
wayland reminds me of that C++ meme which had the caption "20 years to add essential features".
I do find it funny that the only way to fix a 40 year old project is to spend time discussing another project for 20 years
It happens when people try to bend reality to confirm their own beliefs.
The X code was old, but mainly the problem is that the vast majority of programmers write terrible code, terrible to maintain, modify and extend.
Writing from scratch doesn't change the fact.
So you try to pretend that the problem will be solved by not implementing things.
Waiting for someone concrete to appear, like for the kernel, pipewire, etc., to keep the zoo in line.
Matthias has a lot of persistence, congratulations
He could use a smidge of Linus' intolerance of fools.
@@nobodyimportant7804 Idunno... I think the way Matthias handled it was as good as it was going to get. I'm not really sure what Sebastian's goal here was, but it didn't really seem like he was looking for a productive discussion. He was continuing to try to increase the temperature in the room, and Matthias did a great job bringing the temperature down again.
I think Linus being an asshole only works because he is literally Linus Torvalds. He is the ultimate authority when it comes to Linux, and doesn't need to vote by committee. There's a lot of benefit to having a BDFL, chief among which is that he can serve as a tie breaker.
Though maintaining a kernel and developing a new window system protocol are obviously two very different situations.
@@alex2143 There is a difference between being an asshole and shutting down people only trying to cause drama and slow things down.
@@nobodyimportant7804 I agree completely, but it's important to first assume good faith. You can always shut people down later, and you would get more buy in from the others if they can see that you made an effort for productive dialogue.
Gnome is literally the bad guy in the Linux desktop.
Not quite, but Chicken Little may have made a strong contribution to their lineage.
@@absalomdraconisThey’re definitely the bad guy.
Even before watching, we know its gonna be something related to GNOME again.
Wayland should be called Waylong
🤣🤣🤣
It should Way-too-complicated
Waytoolong… i bet it was easier to fix x11’s quirks in these what… 15 years?
Waylong and my favorite waylong compositor: hyprlong!
@@javiergtwayland is the fix
Can someone please explain why Sebastian Wick was even allowed to stir the pot this much? If he can't cast a vote then....what was this all about?
I would love to know that as well. If they have no such power, yet they keep making claims as if they did, their opinion should not be taken seriously any further.
Probably because he does contribute a lot to other protocols. He is one of the drivers of HDR support and without him I suspect things would be moving a lot slower. I don't know why he was allowed to stir the pot so much but I suspect the community is still working out what is considered acceptable and how to moderate things without stifling any contributions.
@@thialfi2289 That is a remarkably level-headed, unbiased perspective. You don't see that very often anymore.
@@thialfi2289how is a gnome dev one of the people pushing HDR support forward when Mutter doesn’t even have a basic HDR implementation? How exactly is he pushing the support forward? By being a cheerleader for everybody else doing actual work?
@@Daktyl198just go read the Wayland gitlab instead of complaining for nothing
Just want to say thank you to MAK for putting so much work into getting this merged. I was following the progress of this protocol fairly closely and the number of repeated arguments and (imo) pointless arguments about how changing icons should not be needed or is a security issue was really draining just to witness. Lots of respect for responding to everyone so professionally even when it was obvious by the end that he was getting burnt out. Thanks for you contributions and I hope you continue to help submit more protocols to resolve real world issues (maybe after a break and finishing off the work with zones).
I intentionally did not comment on swick, but I do not think his response to this protocol (including how he proposed his alternative) was appropriate.
It's been 84 years
17:32 Even Gnome should be interested at that since in the application window overview when you hover over the windows, you see the window icon.
And alt+tab
They would just say fuck it, ignore the protocol and just show the wayland icon or the default icon instead
Been following and occasionally speaking up in that MR for months now and yeah, it was a grade A example of bikeshedding
I'm glad it got resolved and didn't turn into a multi year discussion
Honestly, with the number of desktops and implementations out there, it feels like a miracle that we get anywhere at all with this kind of stuff. One of the main difficulties with linux is that we're trying to standardize things, but we're also trying to support all of the things. And there are A LOT of things.
And then you have a bunch of app developers who just do whatever anyway. 😬
Yeah, honestly it would be nice at times to be like apple and just saying "do it this way, or go fuck yourself" and force standard through
You know, I stumbled across the new MR yesterday and while going through it I thought "Brodie is surely going to make a video about this".
Gnome is free to not implement basic nessessities all they want, and at this point I think wayland folks are just ignoring gnome because they aren't doing anything productive anymore
They really should ignore the Gnome devs.
I've seen a lot of bad stuff about Sebastian Wick in wayland protocols, how isn't he banned yet is astonishing to me lol
Peobably he does tons of work in open source, so he can't be touched unless. That's just my assumption
But yeah, you should be kicked out of a discussion when you only try to start fights, insult others and bring no helpful though whatsoever
They're the HDR protocol developer, so if they ban him, that means HDR support for Linux would be delayed for a long time
@@rawrrrerhardly. Valve and KDE are the two main developers of the HDR specification. I doubt swick with his nonexistant Gnome implementation is doing very much work on the HDR standard.
@@rawrrrerNah, he should be banned, he’s gotten in the way far too often.
20:08 I don't understand why this isn't just the answer. Let the app developer set the icon to whatever they want, whenever they want. It's literally just an image. Why so much debate over this? They've massively over-complicated this feature.
Because it's wayland. Overcomplication the project
It seems to me that they're afraid of some extremely unlikely threats that probably will never even occur in reality, and therefore discuss everything to death.
I'm from Germany and the way Wayland is handling things reminds me a lot of German bureaucracy, where every case that one could imagine has to be considered, no matter how extremely improbable it is.
There's been a few cases where a specially crafted image has been able to manipulate image handling libraries for arbitrary code execution. Not completely unfounded, but also completely bonkers that something like it would just block merging. If a program needs another window with a different icon than the default, you are already executing some program's code on your machine and therefore trusting it.
@@stephanhuebner4931 Had the same thought. The names of some protocol developers sound very german.
Just do it. Don't let our apps be iconless. Do it.
👁️ 👁️
Iconless.
My apps are all iconless, since i use a tiling wm lol
@@no_name4796 your life is miserable.
@@no_name4796 wooooosh
@@no_name4796 I also use a tiling wm, but I do have icons because I run a third party daemon that thinks a Google search for reddit is itself a reddit page, and so injected a Reddit icon into the window's title.
Fricken Wayland. Everything needs to be a damn battle. This should be a simple open shut.
Just use x11 at this point
@@RenderingUser wdym
@@kreuner11 use xorg instead of wayland
Tbf gnome devs do are a big reason for those fights.
Everyone else is mostly chill
The implementation being right from the beginning will make everything much smoother over time.
Do agree though, this level of discourse on this topic is stupid.
Sebastian Wick coming back in the final stages like some Team Rocket, Scooby-Doo goober is the most hilarious mental image/plot twists in the Wayland Cinematic Universe. I look forward to seeing where he'll take us next!
dominic hayes is such a nice person
Dominic is cool
I think another use case is when a pdf reader or just movie player... puts the miniature on the window icon.
And another use case is put the favicon of a webpage in the window icon so when doing alt+tab you can quickly change windows of the same app based on favicon.
Anyways, I use i3wm and I don't really care about icons but its nice to have it.
And WebApps
Yeah app icons are useless if you use any tiling wm
Well actually, waybar does have a module for a wlroot taskar (ie icons of open app), so maybe icons may be useful even for tiling wm
But i3wm uses X11, you really should switch to sway. Using x11 is just a vulnerability at this point
When all your windows are tabbed, icons can be a god-send. They're not just for floating windows.
@@no_name4796 X11 is feature complete. Wayland is incomplete.
Not going to argue here but there is no point in migrating to a platform full of bugs like slack in snap not sharing Window.
X11 will be the first option for the next 5 years.
I have wayland only on setups where I don't have productivity.
For work X11.
@@mercuriete easiest reason to leave x11 behind: it's a crazy mess of code, with tooooooooons of bloat (systemd is nothing in comparison), and with tons of vulnerabilties (you can easily keylog other apps, with no way to deal with it).
HOW IS X11 A GOOD GRAPHICAL STACK TO USE?
Sure these are adults ? - It feels more like toddlers fighting over a toy in a sand-box....
Huge props to Matthias Klumpp for being able to push through all that transpired here. I'm a technical support rep who ends up having to deal with kids quite often because they're one of the audiences that our product tends to overlap with... and yet I *still* don't think I'd have the patience to deal with getting a new protocol proposed and pushed. Not without turning into someone that I wouldn't want to be, that's for sure.
Props also to everyone else who was part of the discussion who remained level-headed as well!
The same freedom we love with linux is also the freedom that causes these chaotic messes. Tis a double edged sword.
But I'd rather having these discussions and things being decided on vote than the orders coming top down. Imagine if GNOME gave the shots and everybody had to follow
Now THIS is bikeshedding. Oh my god just let the app request to send some pixel data for the icon and end it already.
Shoot, I'd say just let the app request an icon by "protocol prefixed name", and then add other protocols whenever you find a use for them.
Seems the real winner here is Brodie who now got both the icons in his desktop and made a movie out of this :)
Also props to Simon who didn't let it drag on even longer.
I spent way too long on this topic lol
but, I like having the icon for five open programs a W.
Common Wayland W? lol
Bottles would benefit very much from this.
The icons again :)
I like how it started with something simple, the whole thing was then somehow sidetracked to systemd/dbus/.desktop and ultimately ended up with "just let the application hand out a bunch of bitmaps of different sizes". KISS
Also what the fsck is wrong with that Wick guy?
Keeping it simple isn't something todays' developers are particularly good at, it seems. 😀
Because Sebastian Wick develops a lot of HDR components for Linux such as the HDR Wayland protocol, so if you get Wick banned from FreeDesktop, general HDR support for Linux would be delayed
@@rawrrrer Seems worth it considering how much he delayed one basic feature.
@@SoitisisitHDR is much more important than window icons, and Sebastian is right. If an app needs different icons on windows, then they're complex enough to benefit from CSD and better off showing a custom icon via CSD instead. SSD is just an optional protocol KDE squeezed into Wayland anyway, so not much loss here.
@@rawrrrer No, it really isn't, but okay.
For me with Wayland I've mostly seen windows with just the default Wayland icon
wayland BDFL when
No system should ever require static configuration.. there's always cases where you need to go beyond that
If something like this can get merged, this means there's a sliver of hope that one day wayland can also get multi-window management. Outside of some fixes to copy and paste issues in certain apps, frankly multi window management is the only thing I personally think is missing that X11 has that wayland doesn't.
Placement protocol, maybe one day it will get merged
I already foresee gnome devs saying: "nah this isn't gnome-like" and nacking it, or simply not implementing it.
Meaning kde will be the only functional DE, ignoring the smaller ones
@@no_name4796 I don't remember GNOME NACKing anything, but maybe I didn't look long enough.
Dumpster fire's like this make me seriously wonder how development's going on behind the doors for both macOS and Windows.
They don't have seventeen desktops shouting what they want so it's probably kinda chill
macOS and windows have BDFLs
@@potatoes5829BDFLs?
26:15 this is Jason A. Donenfeld the creator of Wireguard and the terminal password manager "Pass"
Finally, no more cliffhangers :)
You forget that we still need a finale for the window placement protocol :)
@@godarklight As a dev. not being able to track the cursor makes me mad lol
@@godarklight Shit you're right. I'm on the edge of my seat again
Why does GNOME not support server side decorations and potentionally this icon protocol? If they wanted a stable DE that globally uses Lib Advita (idk how to spell it), wouldn't having 3rd party apps, that don't use GTK, have a GTK user experience with handling the window?
Client-side decorations make it easier to implement custom header bars that integrate well with the app, for example. If you do that with SSDs, the spec either gets too complex or doesn't do everything you want.
Because they are ideologically motivated and want to steer the entire Linux desktop towards their own vision of how the desktop computer should work. They only coöperate with others so that they don't become completely irrelevant when app developers inevitably target their programs towards the majority of desktops rather than the one obscure one that refuses to work with everyone else.
@@softwarelivre2389 You can have both. It's not either SSDs or CSDs.
@@softwarelivre2389: As someone who used WinAmp while it was fresh, the primary benefit of client-side decoration is to completely ignore any desire for consistency that the desktop wants. If GNOME wants apps to play nicely then they should be pushing mandatory server-side decorations.
Brodie, your dedication is appreciated.
Damn three hours is a long time! You did a really good job covering the drama though!
Gnome should have removed Sebastian Wick's posting priviledges in Wayland threads the moment he started pretending to be able to vote for them.
He really just seems like an obstacle to any meaningful progress.
Thank you for your efforts.
Just recently rewatched your older video about this topic, and checked the thread for myself. Saw it got merged and knew for sure you were going to make a video about it. Seems I was right XD
I love Mir just coming in at the very end after everything else has been hashed out to say “we agree and are implementing the standards”. It’s like a slap in the face to everybody who gave the Mir team shit for wanting to be different, meanwhile Gnome turned out to be the actual black sheep in the end.
No one was giving Mir shit for being different in a vacuum, it's for being different for no great reasons and knowing they're gonna be very slow or straight up unsuccessful in achieving their goals. It just sounded like a pipedream that we knew was inevitably gonna be discarded or fall out of support or never fully reach a workable state and that sucks
17:22 If I recall correctly, MacOS and Windows don't have true server side decoration support. Applications call a system library that draws the generic window titlebar, but that titlebar is still drawn by the app. Applications could optionally choose a different style though. It would basically be as if libdecor was built into every single toolkit and was used if no other decorations were added.
Wasn't there a bug in Lego Island where it would actually request a title bar even in full screen but it had no elements?
@@SFSAtlas I believe so
i think windows does ssd, but also supports csd - since the application can be unresponsive and the window titlebar will still work
@@SFSAtlasIndeed it was on Lego Island. Long live MattKC
Windows does SSD. You (your toolkit) have to opt-out to have CSD. Depending on your toolkit, you can tell Windows to either not draw a titlebar, or any decoration at all (not recommended for CSD as this includes touch targets).
But, apps on Windows can draw on SSDs through a horrendous effort. This is very not recommended, and drawing your own titlebar is very much preferred.
When you're in an insufferable personality competition and your opponent is a Wayland developer.
Okay Brodie, but what people REALLY want to know is if you think Shadow of the Erdtree is too hard
I actually haven't played the base game yet lol
the ride never ends
at some point Wayland will have enough protocols to become usable... right?
33:01 Wow, you're good at cutting videos to a manageable length, with the final time being only a sixth of the raw recordings. The best I've ever gotten was half an hour from a one-hour recording…
When a protocol has more than 500+ comments, you just know that Brodie will have a field day
Thank you for giving out an update for this ridiculous "drama"! XD
Wayland shill never fails to deliver wayland content
Can't fault what works. X11 sucks for tablets and small embedded systems, Wayland is just better, flaws and all.
Doesn't stop me from relying on X11 on my desktop. ;)
Brodie, my favorite Wayland chill
@@no_name4796 Bro uses charged language and is like "chill bro". Self awareness fail.
this is what i subbed for
He may be a Wayland shill but he's OUR Wayland shill.
Why were the GNOME people so caught up on the namespacing of the protocol (aside from just being GNOME)? I don't know exactly how it works but from what I've gathered isn't ext for things that might just not exist on some display servers? Window icons seems like a protocol that an application shouldn't have to worry about not existing on every wayland based display server, even if "existing" means sending that data into the ether.
I suspect it's a passive-aggressive attempt to kill things they don't like.
25:27 Wow, he must have been really angry or tired or a combination of that when he typed that, as "apprexlciste" is a really langled version of "appreciate", on the level of "befunge" instead of "before".
It's clearly visible I'm tired, I wrote "langled" instead of "mangled" somehow…
I appreviate you're usage of langlage
@@MNbenMN
Typing while tired is hard, man. I once had an epiphany about how to fix some random Python project I had years ago, which came at almost midnight while I was falling asleep. I didn't want to forget it, so I immediately hopped onto my computer again and typed my idea in a comment. The next morning I had a very hard time deciphering it because it was like an earthquake had shook the comment, most spaces were in the wrong places and so on. Luckily the fact that I wrote it down made me remember my idea and thus I could reconstruct the comment and my idea and then implement it.
@@Lampe2020 Truth be told, I didn't intentionally misspell "appreciate" and "your" in my previous reply, and I was about to fall asleep at the time. Totally get that!
this threas is really funny
It's another day ending in y, of course there's something wrong with Wayland.
Wow what a wild ride
I think GNOME should have a team member whose entire job is looking at protocol discussions, and saying "yeah we're not going to bother with this, yall have fun though"
One thing to remember for things like this, and many other things too: it's impossible to make absolutely everyone agree completely on something.
Because then it would have to be extremely complex to cover every case imaginable, but then it would annoy people who think it's too complex, and if you go for a simple solution, it may not cover every case, which would annoy people.
So in a lot of places it's best to just settle on the local maximum on something that works for the majority, then extend/fix/replace it in the future if a better solution is found.
this is by far the best and most hilarious video title I've seen in a while! good job!! and I guess the content will be even better considering I know some bits of the topic here and there XD
Edit: Now I think Sebastian Wick wanted to NACK the whole thing as quickly as possible because he was working on his own MR all along which tackled the same thing. Ego is a helluva drug xD
wayland movie lets go
its been 9 months and we still dont have wl_pointer warp event
Apologies, I am unfamiliar with "wl_pointer warp".
Some Google-fu turned up "pointer warp" defined as the automatic repositioning of the cursor to the middle of the active window.
Hyprland absolutely does that. It shocked me at first, but it's been kind of useful on occasion. Makes repetitive copy/paste jobs a lot quicker. I'm sure it has other uses too.
i'm a noob, how does someone even develop a GTK application with advanced window manipulation? how many protocols do you have to interact with? GTK, Wayland, libinput, libadwaita, then you have to work with all the compositor distros to get libinput settings and wayland protocols like wlroots or however each DE wants to package it?
this seems like an absolute nightmare at the best of times, nothing is consistent, nothing is for sure, you have to address each DE?
Imagine if the rest collabbed on a wayland fork without accounting for gnome, and called it W12 or something.
We would progress much faster probably, lol
I think this is what they're talking about in politics when they say "how the sausage is made." Egos and proxies fighting for dominance, petty feuds, butt-hurt rage-quits and so on.... difficult compromises make for difficult interpersonal conflicts.
My hope is that, now that your boss and your wife and your mom are all online, folks are starting to realize how stupid super-rude edge-lords sound when they fly off the handle and try weaponize public opinion etc.... Hopefully we're in the waning days of what will eventually be seen as the Great Global Internet Temper Tantrum. Stranger things have happened.
Too much drama over something that DEs can choose to use or ignore. Gnome is a ghetto and I just wish it would disappear as it adds little value to desktop Linux.
At some point, the people who purposefully gum up the works need to be banned from projects.
This got me curious so I checked my screenshot history. The last time I used window icons was in Windows 95 and I haven't missed them. That said though, it seems like the right choice to use server-side decorations, and to let clients set or change their window icons at runtime, direct through the windowing protocol without any extra files in the filesystem. The program may not even exist on any local filesystems; it could be completely remote or virtual or sandboxed or transient or only in memory or ... etc.
Only partially related, but it would be nice to have Window icons in sway similar to i3 proper, maybe this makes this easier for them to do so? (They seemed to have considered it too much work)
There's some obscure scripts available, but it's annoying to be missing features.
Wow... Just wow... I feel like this should have been a really simple open shut thing. I dont really follow any of the development of projects like this, but, Is this sort of thing common with Wayland? If so I feel like this is probably why it seems to have that perpetual reputation of being "not ready yet".
Apparently, yeah, and Sebastian Wick (and other GNOME devs) seems to be a chronic stumbling block.
@@absalomdraconis That's just... Sad... Disheartening really. A feature like this is really optional to be honest. Nice to have as an application developer for sure. But why make such a stink over something they weren't even going to implement? I cannot comprehend this logic.
Is there any reason for swick not losing their ability to comment on such merge requests? Don't get me wrong, but there have been numerous instances where they comment the same negative style they request others not to comment in.
Other commenters have mentioned Sebastian as being the main mover on High Dynamic Range stuff, so for the moment he provides some value. Whether he'll avoid a ban for a full year after he outlives his value is anyone's guess.
@@absalomdraconisThe main driving force behind HDR on linux is actually Valve and the KDE devs they have on payroll.
Rarely met any icon since I settled with dwm. Interesting tho, people making so much effort to decide precisely how to overcomplicate stuff. Good ol' POSIX vibes, carefully laid out standard, chaotic half-ass implementations all around the place, mostly pointless in what it was aimed for, although as a set of design guidelines, it unquestionably had an effect.
If you want to see how hard Brodie work, just replay the video ;)
The state of gui in Linux seems worse than it was back in th 1990s. Maybe that's harsh but i deal with gui weirdness on a daily basis. And I'm not even using Wayland. Back in the day, once you had it setup, it was rock solid. Its not even like we have amazing bleeding edge features... Kde zones doesn't hold a candle to Microsoft fancyzones.
This means that Firefox Developer Edition soon will have an icon in the title bar and the panel? Currently the icon on the .desktop file I created for it is only visible in the panel as long as Firefox is closed, as soon as I start it there is the Wayland logo instead.
I managed to get the icon of Nightly to work, but I had to copy the desktop file to /usr/share/applications. I also had some "fun" trying to get the window name to match.
Wayland gives me very good video FPS, but they don't need to overcomplicate such simple things as window icons, which other GUIs have solved ages ago.
@D.G.M it's understandable to be cautious with wayland protocols, to avoid ending up with a mess like X11 was.
But i agree the discussions are just crazy. There shouldn't be people who only go online to say others idea are stupid because it's not their own idea
Always down for some Issue Tracker drama 😂
Window icons are usually provided by desktop files? I thought they were provided by a third-party daemon intercepting new windows to alter their title to include characters from the Unicode Private Use Area provided by a font that was monkey-patched to include icons as those characters.
If this sounds idiotic to you, welcome to window icons in Sway due to the developers refusing to load icon themes. _Please_ Sway devs, if you're not going to add window icons using the existing methods, at _least_ implement this protocol so that we can get _something_ that isn't complete madness.
The more I hear about Wayland projects, the more I wish I had the time and money to be Mr. X11 and make an entirely new Desktop Environment that backhands GNOME and Wayland into obscurity harder than Wayland did to Mir. I want X11 to continue for another fifty years and actually be fixed where it needs to be fixed.
Every project should have a leader with the final word.
Moreover - Gnome devs must have seen GIMP. It sets (or used to set) its icon to... miniature of the picture at hand.
Nah, the GIMP Tool Kit has nothing to do with GIMP. ;)
It might be fun that there never is a boring day for Wayland but this is exactly why I won't use it in the next few years. There are too many issues left. It is usable for many usecase-scenarios but not for all usecase-scenarios. I can see myself set up a 2nd gaming-only distro (like Bazzite) and use Wayland for that, for that Wayland is 100% ready. But as a regular desktop, for me and for how I use my system that is much too rough at the moment. I mentioned the reasons before: lack of global hotkeys, it doesn't have a windowmanager which is as good as what I am using (dwm) and I can't as easily set up a tool for screenshotting. I don't mind learning new tricks but the ecosystem just isn't there yet and Wayland itself isn't either. But for a singlepurpose usage like gaming it is fine, maybe if you use KDE it is fine too for a regular desktop, I can't judge that. I hope that Wayland will be ready 5 years from now, as soon as it gives me a better userexperience than X then I will switch.
18:26 wow! All the emoji responses are against him. Wick really put his foot in his mouth there.
Only 6 months? This could of taken years
missed the opportunity to make the thumbnail say "never a boring day in wayland"
>setting window icon
>34 minute video
>overengineered_penguin.bmp
It saying "1 week ago" makes sense, two weeks is 14 days, and it tends to round down. The same thing happens on CZcams, if you see a video that is 1 day, or maybe even 1 minute away from being 2 years/months/weeks/days old it will say 1
Wayland always gives us some nice videos!
How on earth it's hard for someone to implement ask the server "I want this file" and server just does the thing or ask the server "Take this byte string and use it for this (please)" and server just saves it for lifetime of this client and chooses how to use it how it wants? Some people are just not understanding that nobody asked their opinion on how their thing will break because they do not know how other people do this.
More appimages please.
gross
@@umop3plsdn no I just prefer to use less disk space. Flatpak ends up bigger than my entire system just to run 4 or 6 apps. If you like to use more disk space you are gross.
@@itsasecrettoeverybody AppImages use more disk space if you use more than a couple of them and they have heavy library usage and library overlap. If your use case is installing one or two and they're not KDE or GNOME apps, then yeah you might see some savings.
Flatpak could definitely improve here by making the basic Freedesktop runtime either smaller or more modular, but for GNOME or KDE apps you're inherently going to be pulling in most of GNOME/KDE so it makes sense just to frontload the runtime for those.
There are other benefits to the Flatpak way - when security issues are fixed in a runtime it's fixed for all apps that use it, where AppImages would need an update from the devs.
The argument about decorations misses a very obvious point, a more important one: task switchers. I'd think that is the primary use for those icons, not decorations.