Ukraine's Handheld FPV Killer?
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- čas přidán 24. 02. 2024
- A small, hand-held shotgun-like device has been suggested as an anti-drone weapon. With the massive increase in UAV and FPV use a small handheld, lightweight, last-ditch, defensive weapon could be a sensible answer to a urgent and difficult problem.
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This looks like the shotgun you'd get out of a vending machine in Cyberpunk 2077.
It looks a bit like a pepperbox Gun (Bündelrevolver)!
yeah looks like you could make it 3d printed like a shotgun version of the harlot
no bro, like from DOOM xD
Its junk by that logic, not worth risking your life over
@@squigglesmcjr199 I agree.
You can't easily aim it, the grip angle is unnatural for instinctive shooting, the short barrel limits the velocity/range to engage drones at; the only advantage I can think of is that it's short so the pattern will open up immediately but if you're using it at that range maybe you're already in the drone blast zone. Even then they could just cut down any barrel if they felt that would help them. Despite what the designer says this can only be some kind of marketing gimmick for their signaling device. I highly doubt Eastern Europe, let alone the rest of the world, has run out of shotguns to send to Ukraine.
All those auto shotguns could be put to good use quickly out there. Otherwise some kind of shotgun CWIZ for infantry could be worth some RnD$$$ or an anti-drone drone that acts like a hawk and just automatically tracks flying drones and crashes itself into them, something cheaper than a missile.
This seems like it should be "underslung" a rifle but there's no mounting point.
It is just a gimmicky piece of crap. Both Russians and Ukrainians use actual, functional EW units to combat the drones. This is just a plastic trash to sell off to unsuspecting buyers.
The one benefit I could see to this is that it looks cheap and light so many people could be equipped with them relatively quickly.
Shotguns have gotten a lot cheaper but they're still long and relatively heavy. It's not feasible to give every person one especially front line soldiers who already carry a shit ton.
It's like a handgun but for drones I guess. Not a primary weapon, but something to arm a shit ton of people with so they have at least some level of defensive ability.
The FPV drones fly at up to 150 km/h, which makes them extremely hard to intercept with another drone. The device shown might make sense when you have 7 seconds before you hear the drone, and it hits you. If it is able to put a cloud of shrapnel between you and the drone, than OK. I agree it has to be tested yet with dozens of drones sacrificed.
I think this is more for the everyday soldier who already has a rifle/sidearm/etc and wants some kind of last line of defense from drones that's easy to carry. I think it'd be better if it could be mounted to a rifle though.
You could get like 2 pump action Mossberg 500 12 gauge shotgun kits with both a 28" and 18" inch barrel for the same price
Cascadian? Is that some new fangled branch of the lgbt?
Yeah its cheeper but it heavier. If every unit had someone carrying a shotgun they would either have to have two heavy long gun type weapons with 2 sets of ammo they have to worry about, or they would have to be less effective as a soldier because they only have the shotgun to hunt drones, plus if a drone is in shotgun range its usually too late to react quick enough
@@muggy87how about the Serbu Super Shorty?
@@Rashed1255 I mean its better to carry around than a Mossberg 500 lol. But still carrying around 3 guns would be insane for an infantry man. They got their AK, their side arm pistol, and then on top of that the shotgun plus all the ammo for all 3 lf the guns. Even if they didn't bring a pistol i feel like that infantry man could be lugging around better things like more bandages or grenades
@@muggy87sidearm pistols are not generally carried by regular line infantry though. That's a myth perpetuated by gamers and blissfully enjoyed by handgun manufacturers. Even those of us who are (no, I'm not in Ukraine) t/o'd sidearms often leave them in the armory and carry a carbine instead.
Nothing says "important" to a marksman than running around a fight without a long gun; and the ordinary grunt can't make hits with a sidearm outside twelve meters...it's just not part of the training regimen and skillset. Yeah, I'd prefer a couple more grenades than a pistol.
Yeah, better to have someone at team level around with a tactical Benelli and some 3 1/2" geese loads for fpv. Plus, with some buckshot he can still contribute for the ordinary
Twice the cost of a entry-level 12ga shotgun for something that's mostly plastic with terrible ergonomics. The only conceivable benefit is the compact size, but for the price you could get a pair of real shotguns and have more than enough money left over for a saw. It's also pretty questionable how effective such a short barrel would be. You might have a lot of trouble shooting down a drone before you're inside its blast radius.
A double barrel would be adequate. I'm not sure how many rounds he expects to get off at a rapidly approaching drone within the engagement range given the low power and gaps in the shot pattern that come with wide spread. I'd guess one...
Its ergonomics are fine for flare, etc. launcher. The design is no doubt a conscious one to make it NOT look or feel like a gun so that they don't run afoul of the sundry firearms laws and outright bans in many places.
Yes, this isn't a good solution to FPV drones. Its effective range is probably less than the grenade that gets knocked out of the drone that was attacking you...
Yep. Try shooting skeet clay with that signal device.
@@obsidianjane4413 Yeah, trying to ‘point shoot” a glorified Roman candle is not ideal.. I’d take a single shot H&R shotgun over this thing.
@@obsidianjane4413 Agreed. For what it is designed for, it is more than likely perfectly acceptable. Just not this. Perhaps if it is used as a testbed for something more suitable?
I think the real problem is identifying the FPV and engaging it in a timely matter or if there is any time to react
I agree, it seems that this solution would be easier to implament. Early identification and engagement being the end all solution. One step at a time, recording field testing, and constant adaptation is key. The MSD - 5 looks like a good platform to build on.
@@toastyknight5493I think it looks like a terrible platform to build on - its not even capable of firing shotgun shells. The best defense against FPV drones is jamming. The second best is the weapon in your hand because of the suddenness... a bad shotgun sidearm is worst of both worlds - it just reeks of being a cash grab.
This is a challenge. However we have plenty of videos showing people running away from FPV drones, who act like they have seen the drone.
You NEED a drone alarm receiver!
@@orbiradio2465 The reason why is less the drone and more what follows the drone. Typically the drones are used to observe for fire support assets. While elimination of the drone is ideal, getting off the x and into cover before rounds start landing is important. Simple react to IDF drill. Engaging observation drones would likely require a full length shotgun as the ranges/sizes involved, ~100m fast moving target, as the accuracy and pattern density are not available to such a short barrels imo.
Im sorry but why is no one talking about the fact you can use this thing to spray fucking plants with pesticides, like why, just why
Those aphids were coming right at me! 🤭
Acorn defense
When you're a gardener but you're way into Starship Troopers.
The best I can think of is if you have a plant in a hard to get to place, where you can't put a ladder. Otherwise you'd just get a ladder and a regular plant pray gun.
They made an Agent Orange gun?
I’m surprised both sides don’t just have a “designated drone shooter” in a squad armed with a magazine fed Saiga-style semi-auto shotgun. They’ll have natural familiarity with the ergonomics of the AK-pattern shotgun, and the logistics won’t be as badly strained by a bunch of whatever very specific ammunition this thing needs vs. regular 12 gauge. Plus, what have the Ukrainians been doing with those Mossbergs we sent them way back before the beginning of the war? I know those seemed almost as bad an insult as the German helmets back then, but I would sure like a trench gun in that environment. You could also do a little of interesting things with choke tubes and whatnot to maximize shot spreads. I just think this thing is almost just reinventing the wheel.
They're probably in the hands of prison guards, police and personal security. Just like the Kel Tec carbines that were sent. Keeping those in the rear frees up AKs for the front.
the millitairy is way slower then we think in how they adapt to things but the soldiers on the ground do adapt and maybe some groups already have that in place, I know a ytber who fundraise for thermals which he says they also use to shoot down drones in the night
This is being tested globally by different militaries.
some people made huge money off selling things before they got anywhere.
The Turkish make a 12-gauge 3½-inch turkey shotgun, 24-inch with interchangeable chokes but it comes with an extra-full choke tube and a red-dot sight, those are extremely popular. Switch the extra-full for a rifled choke tube and load .50/12.7mm armor-piercing sabot slugs if drones aren't the immediate problem. Made for the U.S. export market (the only place in the world with wild turkeys), these have become extremely popular with both sides over there.
The Soviets built a licensed version of the Remington 870, scaled up to 23mm (something like 8-gauge, 12-gauge is 18mm) and barrelled from cut-down sections from worn-out anti-aircraft guns. These were used exclusively by prison guards in the old days, but have proven extremely effective against FPV drones in Ukraine.
looks like crap ergonomics and I doubt the range is great for such short barrel. And 400 EUROS?! Might as well use the money to buy a semi-auto shotgun in 12GA rather than the 410 shells that I assume are being used.
Yes, semi automatic shotgun with tungsten buckshot. Real range and volume of pellets.
When you look at most vids of FPV drones/drone dropped grenades, the person, if they even see the drone coming, often only has 3-10 seconds to respond. It also happens at times when people don't expect it (behind their own lines, random drones flying over the trenches, etc, not necessarily in the middle of battle) so I think there's an advantage in having a small gun which is very simple that you can just point in the general direction and fire very quickly. If you're a regular infantryman you might not wanna carry around a larger shotgun and a dedicated guy would be useful but 5 second wouldn't be a long time if you have to get the attention of your buddy and they have to successfully shoot it down while in combat.
Although the price is outrageous, I feel like the point of this should be that it's super cheap and easy to arm every soldier as a last line of defense against drones.
Judging by what was said in video, this thing fires extended .410 shells, they are extra long (88 mm). Maybe it would still fit conventional .410 shells too.
They want some of that Ukraine aid $$$
@@monkemode8128"see" you use your ears. You hear drones before you see them. You want the tool that works, not justifying a bad idea because you've never shot skeet once and immediately understood how useless this thing would be.
Pistol grip feels very necessary to add
That would make it "gun like". Its not a gun.
@@obsidianjane4413its a shotgun bro
@@gadielplays2419not really
@@obsidianjane4413 for whats going on righy now in ukraine, i dont think a "gun like" is a problem tho...
@@obsidianjane4413 If I’m going into a war zone, I’m going to take something‘gun like” over something ‘not gun like”…
While the tubes can be upgraded with steel, the backing plate looks to still be plastic, and I'm wondering about the locking method.
Drones aren't especially tough but I'm not sure using a reduced charge is going to be helpful in taking them down.
One idea jumping up and down in my head is making 40mm grenades with proxy fuses; suddenly a common rifle grenade launcher can be very effective in swatting drones.
Really wouldn't want to use any sizeable load with it. As you say the backplate would need strengthening.
A rotary 40mm, even with buckshot loads, would be an improvement.
I had been thinking about 40 mm anti drone weapons as well. Those are available with every squad.
@@donwyoming1936 Buckshot will leave too big gaps for any reasonable distance where you
can actually see those small drones.
Had to be relatively small birdshot to actually hit.
Drones are overally constructed very lighty for sake of range and mobility.
It is not about will potential hit penetrate and do damage. It is all about actully
spotting it before it is too late anyway.
Overally taking those small bomb drones down with firearms is next to impossible.
Electronical devices are far better for that job.
@@donwyoming1936How many rounds do you think you'd get off within range when the drone is coming at you at 60km/hr? A single barrel would probably be all, and they already have those.
In order to get any range out of that thing you'll need a fast-burning powder and plenty of it. I'm not convinced the barrel could hold it. There is significant smoke in the demo, most likely from a low pressure black powder charge which obscures visibility and lacks range. As a shotgun shooter I have to point out an issue with wide shot dispersion from short barrels: there are huge gaps between the pellets. Impossible to aim, unnatural grip angle, low rate of fire. You'd be better off mag dumping at the drone.
It's a piece of crap and shows how unprepared the soldiers are. I would carry my Benelli M4, just because, but I had a drone buzz my home and couldn't even see it. When I did spot it, the fucker was long gone and out of range.
A comment reply I read suggested the 'extra' in the video from the indoor range could be chaff and flare elements added to jam or blind the drone in the last moments before it hits. Just another person's thoughts, but I thought they could be good ones.
There is many videos on youtube of people testing bird shot in flare guns made of plastic like this. They all explode...
Basically a weaponized roman candle.
That’s actually not a bad idea. As a similar concept to WW2 flack artillery…
More like a old Pepperbox Gun (Bündelrevolver)
I could see this being really useful mounted in a under barreled configuration
But then, if underbarreled, the moment you aim this thing you already have a weapon with longer range and higher rate of fire trained onto the target...?
not really, m203 gl is hated and everyone says is usless crap on your weapon, but everyone loves the m320 wich you can fire from the shoulder no need to mount on the weapon
@@talscorner3696 Because the shotgun shell has pellet like things inside it which spread out after firing. If a soldier was REALLY good and could just hit the drone it wouldn't matter but if they're not so skilled, stressed out in combat, etc then they can use a shotgun and as long as the gun is pointing in the general direction it will hit.
@ode8128 Pellets don't go as far as solid ball.
And, when they do go as far as, say, 50 meters (which is still danger close for a drone, as far as I can tell), they do not remain close enough to each other to *ensure* that when you go click with a shotgun, the drone goes splat.
But if you can shoot the shotgun beneath the barrel of your rifle... you can shoot the rifle, too, at a range much greater than the 50 meters at which *maybe* a shotgun can get some result.
And the rifle has automatic fire.
And there's at the very least 5 or 6 more in the unit.
Plus, somebody has to find the shotguns, feed the shotguns, find the spares for the shotguns, carry the shotguns on top of every other piece of kit for the unit and so on and so forth.
@rner3696 Yeah but it's difficult to shoot them you can get an idea from /r/CombatFootage, Telegram, and X. You can see people firing at recon drones (which are a lot slower) and 1 or 2 guys will unload on it and nothing happens. Although I doubt either side is posting videos of their own drones getting shot down. Recently a vid came out where a guy actually did take down a drone but it was too close and he still blew up so it's a concern. Most of the time you don't see the drone 50m out. Again looking at FPV drone strike vids people only notice 3-5 seconds before they hit. In some vids the drone comes from behind and the person doesn't even flinch. IDK how common this is but in an interview with a Ukranian he said the drones are really hard to hear not only because they're quiet but also because a lot of the weapons used by both sides are VERY loud (like AKs, artillery, grenades, etc) and it makes those duller and quieter sounds a lot harder to hear. They're a small target and the operator can see the enemy, fly behind cover, fly in from the direction of the sun, IDK, whatever you could think of to hide a drone.
Love the comments replying to people saying a regular shotgun would be better like "But soldiers aren't gonna carry a shotgun and a rifle." That is LITERALLY what the Ukranians are doing right now lmao. A Mossberg 500 is not an uncommon sight in Ukraine. It's not uncommon for a good few people in a unit to be carrying RPG's, NLAW's, and Javelins on their back and others get to carry the ammo. The dude who gets to carry a seven pound shotgun is probably one happy guy. Also ask the Marines who were in Fallujah, at the right range, a semi auto shotgun is absolutely a capable weapon system in modern combat.
regular soldiers only Carry a rifle?
😅 soldiers that return use every item at his disposal...
In WWI shotguns were very useful in trench warfare. A 12 ga Remington 870 with BB shot would probably work well to knock down FPVs. The first line of defense seems to be jamming transmitters that prevent operators from seeing the FPV's camera feeds. They also jam the RC signals, although with spread spectrum radios that's harder to do.
I am at a distinct lack of time at the moment, but I want to see people actually put drones downrange and try it on them. The closeness and speed of the FPVs make them a very hard targets for handheld firearms in general. If you don't believe me, go watch people at a skeet range.
I shoot trap, I would have to switch guns, or use the shotgun as a primary weapon/ They are very hard to spot, unlike clays being fired from known positions. I could fill the sky with 7.5 shot and still miss it, even with a 7 shot semi-auto. They are very hard to locate that fucking noise.
Training and then equipping for drone detection is the key. So far, only people on top-level V.I.P. protective details get that training.
with a 3" mag shell this thing would knock your hand off.
im sitting here looking at the 3.5" #4 buck sitting on my desk just laughing at the possibilities. no sane manageable load out of this thing would take down so much as a kite tho.
@@johjoh978 but hey mount a scope on it put 3" mags in it. And let people try. It would be highly amusing to say the least. The local ER would make bank........
It would also frag you as it blew apart. I know a guy who shotguns one-handed - that's all he's got - but his gun weighs more and is a tad more ergonomic.
Nah. It would probably explode in all honesty, but if not it wouldn't have time in the bore to burn more than a fraction of the powder.
@@The_sinner_Jim_WhitneyOh, I dunno. Overenthusiastic shot load, nice fast powder like ASP300 in that long case of theirs and I'm pretty sure I could accept that challenge :)
Ignoring the price, could it be used for Drone to Drone Air Combat? It has already electric fired, has low recoil and weights less than 1kg...
. . . I like the way you think.
I have a friend who enjoys a Chinese-built ducted electric turbofan jet 1/3 scale A-10 Warthog, and have been trying to figure out how to arm it as a defending anti-drone interceptor to protect Lighter-Than-Air communications bouys.
1kg is a reasonable large amount of weight if you want your drone to be nimble and able to intercept another drone. Majorly impacts flight performance and time
I believe there is a similar 4 barreled russian pistol with a more traditional grip that is also electrically fired. I believe its meant for less lethal rounds. Its called the OSA or wasp pistol or the PB-4SP.
Yeah the Osa, 18x45mm is basically short round 12ga, and optionally with an aluminum slug (if not rubber bullet). It would be so hard to hit an FPV though even with a grip. I think the main reasoning here is as wide dispersion as possible and a lucky hit at very short range; even 2-3 meters off still gives a chance, as footage shows
I could see this being effective in more of a "pistol" format rather than a stockless shotgun setup. The grip angle makes this harder to aim, and for someone in the field having the device require both batteries and special ammo is not great. A 5 or 6 shot pepperbox style pistol would serve the same function, but be more reliable as regular shotshells are a tried and true thing by now.
don't get me wrong, the idea has a lot of merit, a small firearm that can sling shot is going to have a higher chance of hitting a drone than a rifle by virtue of how shotguns work. The issue is that the shells for this use a firing mechanism that requires batteries. There's a reason no military uses electrically fired firearms, too much can go wrong in the field from water to just simple dirt getting in between the contacts.
Id definitely take a cut down Single barrel H&R shotgun over this thing, for the ergonomics and better sight radius alone.
You aren't wrong about batteries, but the *123 batteries this uses were the motherboard CMOS batteries for all Apple desktop computers from the start. They last five years before they start going bad.
But you are wrong about military ammunition, all aircraft cannon have used electrical primers since World War II, so prior to 1940, and do to this day. It's much more reliable than conventional primers, but as you say, it has never been popular on the ground. The presence of clouds tells me that humidity is not the issue. I don't know if it is truly a problem or not, but I recall some General citing the possibility of static electricity being a potential problem, in opposition to caseless rifle ammunition, in a Congressional hearing in the 1980s.
If this is already marketed in the E.U. as a signal gun for rescue, I expect some agency or bureau in Germany has gone full anal testing it.
@@Beuwen_The_Dragon Snake Charmer, just please make it a 28-gauge (.55-inch) instead of .410 bore!
I like the Mossberg Shockwave, Remington TAC 14 and the V3 TAC 13 for similar benefits. But this is a nifty little device. Especially the fire fighting capability.
I have a few packs of 12ga shotgun shells designed for counter-drone applications. They contain some weights which expand a net, for entangling the props. Claimed maximum effective range is 40 yards but I think that's optimistic. In tests, it's proven very difficult to take down drones with small arms of any kind if they are aimed by a human. Drones move fast and are hard to see.,
Maybe hand held is not the best way to employ these but to mount them say a cluster of 4-6 on a trainable stand mounted on a vehicle with proper sites and able to handle the recoil.
For example a Stryker has two hatches in the rear where one could mount a cluster for each of the hatches... perhaps.
I always thought the USAS-12 shotgun would make a good close range, drone killer. But any shotgun would do. Benelli M4 would do fine.
Especially with TSS super shot. I could even see tanks and IFVs being armed with some radar or IR directed drone defense weapons.
Naw. Benelli Supernova or Nova. Affordable combat pumps that can also handle 3 1/2" shells. With a #1 or #2 load (geese loads) in a 3 1/2" you can reach out.
Besides, #1 birdshot is .17 caliber, it's actually capable enough on a man if you're truly desperate and 3 1/2" provides ALOT of pellets.
@@JD-tn5lzI’m with ya on the nova/super nova but with tungsten shot #5 or #6 would have way more pellets and maintain energy longer than a #1 or #2 steel
The Turkish clone of the Binelli Supernova, indeed with an extra-full choke and waterfowl loads, is what is being used in Ukraine. There's a version that was marketed for hunting wild turkey in the US, that comes with a red-dot sight and everything, that is extremely popular.
The anti drone equivalent of the Handflammpatrone
With such a short barrel the shot opens up immediately giving it short range. In the video you can see it open up and almost hit the ceiling so it looks like you'll be in range when the drone explodes. You can get a Mossberg for $700 and it'll do the job better.
id pick the mossberg shockwave. more versatile than just in this application
It's actually pretty compact I like it
This design reminds me of the phaser from star trek TNG. The cast of that show complained all the time about how difficult it was to try and aim those things anywhere remotely near a target.
wouldn't the shotgun trigger the percussion cap on the rpg???? why is no one mentioning this
if you are having to use this you are not walking away unscathed
I know the form factor would be smallish.. but I think that we have progressed enough with electronics that one could make 12ga rounds with an old school inspired simple prox fuse designed to disperse small high velocity shrapnel. I.e. a mini version of old school AA artillery.
Is the payload underpowered? Yes. Are drones small, fragile, and likely to be critically damaged from them? Also yes. Compromising velocity a little would allow for a decent amount of workable space in a 3 or 3.5" magnum footprint. Would need rifled barrels and some copper driving band on the projectile. That could even increase shrapnel produced if it is a long thin engagement ring centered around the explosive payload.
Too bad you cannot get the coiled shavings from a lathe, and find a way to make centrifugal force spread it open.
The projectile should disperse a wide range and pattern of fine monofilament line to jam up the fpv propellers. Much like the smoke and flare launchers on tanks, a suitcase sized device can be developed for extended portable protection along with hand held devices.
That thing looks like it would be difficult to hit a drone with. Hard to aim and all. It looks small enough to strap on the side of a pack though, so defiantly easier to carry than a normal shotgun.
As for other uses, seems like it is not really something that is needed. A cheap plastic flare gun works just fine, and a fire extinguisher seems more effective. Looks awesome to load and play around with though, ha. Would defiantly have fun shooting flares out of it even if I do not NEED such a capable flare gun.
There's also the Taurus Judge 6 round revolver which can shoot .410 Shotgun shells, .45 Colt, and even .454 Casull with the Raging Judge model.
You get better accuracy with a goddamn slingshot
let me show you its features xD
@@AIC_onyt *happy giant German laugh* 😂
@@abdou.the.heretic
*streches rubber*
BANG
HA HA HA HA
when guns are illegal in your country, you have to become the gun
And velocity for that matter
@@hateforall4012 yup, just look at how much unburned powder it throws out, like a melee flamethrower 😭
This Derringer-like thing is a pretty interesting concept, but you're asking a lot out of people's aiming ability to use this against FPVs. It's also probably a bit too big for the role, could probably cut out a barrel or two and still be about as effective at it while being slimmer.
There is a Revolver model from Taurus called RT-410 "The Judge" that uses 36 Gauge ammunition, basically a reduced version of the 12 Gauge, capable of hunting ammunition as multiple spheres. But, I don't know if this would be efficient at long range, since it's a revolver.
*They load it with FLECHETTE (darts) which travel fast and far, hold a tight pattern and no hard kick since the load weighs 1/4 oz. for 24 steel darts.*
No man a 40mm M-79 grenade launcher with flechette or shot round changes the whole picture against shotguns.
This reminds me. Where's the SiX12? It was announced like 10 years ago as a standalone or under barrel mounted double action revolver style shotgun.
i wonder how the electronically fired part goes...
imo, just angle the grip and some irons and its ready to ship.
Wrist breaker..why not issue 870 wing master..longer barrel to group shots...short barrel is not useful for longer range shot guns.
they're already holding the rifle so they need one of those that attaches similar to a grenade launcher would be faster to employ and longer range, if it was electric primed like the flare gun it should cost about 20 pounds instead of 450 but it's single shot not 5 ....a grenade launcher has a much larger spread so probably still as effective as all five ...(?)
Saiga type of a shottie needed, a new model though, the one that would sends hail of fragments in shortest amounts of time and with bigger mag and lesser overall caliber for bucks, to be issued to a designated AD (anti-drone) sub-class soldier (one element of a role, may be combined like - ammo carrier + AD)
what if you train birds/falcons to take out recon drones and grenade dropping drones ?
any shotgun like weapon is a last ditch effort better than nothing when you are being chased around by a drone. But ultimately early detection is the best tool because in reality most troops dont have time to react. The few videos we see of people running around and trying to dodge a drone is rare as often the drones dont miss on the first strike or it isnt in a position to be detected early enough. Though drones can be loud like a whole hive of bees you wont notice the sound when its a few hundred feet in the air, and by the time you hear it, you likely have 3-5 secounds to react and even then these drones are small in comparison to actual aircraft so spotting its position yourself is hard by that time ur likely dead. to defend against a drone you not only need to hear it in time but see it and draw a weapon to engage it 3-5 secs isnt exactly the best time to do all that in
Yes! Perfect! You'll want to use birdshot. You can also use folded up nets inside of the shotgun shell that will tangle up the props on the drone.
Put it on an under barrel rail, and with a few simple mods you've got a gd breaching tool.
I'm more interested in the possibility of having the different shells such as the fire extinguishing round or aerial flare or a fire-starting round which would have a short range and burn for several minutes! Of course, they would have to be regular (i.e.primer fired) shells usable in any standard 12 gauge shotgun and not be too costly!
All of the safety regulations are why 12-gauge signal guns fire 14-gauge flares now, star shells are illegal in the United States of America, and that all-plastic single-shot 12-gauge rescue gun costs way over $400 now, and replacement shells are no longer sold separately.
So, dream on! When I was a kid, I could walk in to a Dick's Sporting Goods and buy one for a Boy Scouts weekend hike, and it still had a 12-gauge bore (and a warning it would explode if a regular 12-gauge shell was fired in it; since it only cost $28, this was something the Scout Master would demonstrate as a real warning), and since people liked to fire them over the lake, they sold the flares and star shells by the 10-round box!
Redesigned AA-12 would be a better idea I think. 3 1/2 magnum chambering and a 32" goose barrel or make the barrel a two piece design if your worried about transporting.
A Turkish company was marketing a shotgun in the US for hunting wild turkey, about $420 with a red-dot sight, extra-full removable choke tube, 24" barrel, handles 12-gauge 2¾, 3, and 3½. Those have been selling really well to both sides, I see.
Stupid question, why not use Saiga12 or some other kind of auto shotgun?
Isn’t Saiga Russian?
Wounder if could load a kinda paint that could both block vision and signal? Like a black lead paint
I think something similar to the bonus system is needed. Smaller obviously but a one-shot fire and forget weapon for each solder
I wonder if this could be non-restricted in Canada for the same reasons that the Sulun Arms SS-211 is NR.
The only debatable part would be with whether or not it could be considered a hand gun. I suppose it could be, or even would be.
But on that topic, the SS-211 could work in Ukraine to take out drones. It's much bulkier, but still relatively compact?
I almost want to just say forget the combat uses of this thing, because until this video I had NEVER even imagined shell loads that have utility like some of these. Puts out fires? Spray pesticides???
That shit is pretty nuts right? Or have I just somehow gone over a decade of weekly shotgun shooting and managed to never hear about these?
FWIW I think this thing could actually be a pretty solid anti-fpv tool if it could get some tweaks ergonomically. I think the fact that it’s so tiny will actually make it more effective since it should allow you to “keep up” with fpv level speed/agility while you aim. That being said, it needs some changes to the design for sure. At the moment it looks like you’re shooting a brick. Even if it’s something as small as some molded in finger holds on the “grip”. Ideally for ergonomics you’d want to actually give the grip some level of curve or angle relative to the barrels, BUT I actually think the straight/in-line design here might be helpful with defending against fpv’s in a similar way that having a smaller weapon helps.
You (unlike most, here) have got it in one. I used to fence, so I know very well that this grip-angle is not a problem.
The biggest problem I saw was finding a gun-bucket to hold it, but then I thought, "A cargo pocket and creative use of velcro can fix this."
It is very suitable for adding rail buckles to become M4 carbine lower hanging accessories.
The way the MSD-5 is held in order to “aim” seems like serious limiting factor in its effectiveness against drones. Conventional shotguns with bead sights obviously would be superior but they’re larger and wouldn’t be available to everyone. I think the solution would be to select a domestically manufactured pump action shotgun and to make a cheap, light, short barreled version of them to mass produce. Enough to keep at least one in a fighting position.
I think an underslung shotgun would be more useful and anything more than 3 shots is pointless as you wouldn't have the time, the closing speed is so fast and also you need to kill the vehicle at a significant distance to prevent the momentum carrying it through to the target.
Maybe there's only a chance for one powerful shot like a 40mm buckshot shell.
Also, would it be possible to have something like a 40mm grenade that detonated at a set distance? Like as soon as it reached safe arming distance it detonates.
As a long time skeet sport clays shooter, when i fist saw the FPV drones, i instantly thought, where are the shot guns?
I actually think this is a good design from a prototype perspective.
If we Assume the following
Its a last ditch/general issue sidearm for drone/secondary uses.
The design gives you rapid shot capacity WITHOUT the weight/length of a semi/automatic shotgun, something a pump action cannot provide.
I would make the following changes to make a practical variant.
up gauge(increase small pellet density and consistency of spread)
decrease barrels to 3(reduce weight due to increased gauge/barrel length)
use plain steel, not composite(reduce cost)
Increase barrel length by 3" (it actually has some punch)
pistol grip.(so if using it alone you can actually aim/shoot/handle recoil)
attachable to rifles.(does it even need to be said?)
In this way it becomes a low cost, relatively light multi shot anti drone sidearm/underslung rifle attachment...
Use it to fire a small nylon net that envelopes the drone. Like a bola or a hand-held fishing net.
Very interesting
M203s fit right under a typical Algo-unmentionable platform.
A 40mm shell with a mesh that spreads out would tangle the blades real fast.
A proximity fused 40mm might be viable. Lightweight round for higher velocity. Doesnt take much to knock out a drone IF you can hit i
Just do a minimalist over under version to be carried easily. And add a few inches to the barrel
why not a short barrel side by side or over under?
I have to assume that shooting down a drone would be next level difficult compared to shooting clays, and shooting clays with that thing would be a trick shot. It's hard enough shooting a man sized static target with an unstocked shotgun at close range. I can't even imagine trying to shoot something small and moving fast with that. What they need is grandad's bird gun.
I’d try Kevlar umbrella short term or train hawks or eagles
We need a mini anti drone system that shoots physical shells like the German’s large AA that has a tracking system and air burst munitions but much smaller an could fit in a backpack with a limited amount of ammo. Even if one had just 10 20mm shells linked to a system on a lil tripod if you were in a trench or on the move it could provide a unit with serious coverage.
The easiest way to adapt it would be to use a steel hull with a thick wall. A flechette load would be cool as hell.
Might work as a launcher for an ultra small homing munition. Something that homes on the drone possibly beam riding.
Later into the war in Afghanistan friends of mine who served saw the Taliban starting to use drones for both overmatch and dropping the odd grenade or mortar round. Some of the Australians units (and probably others) started to be issued with Mossberg 500‘s and some extra range time doing skeet shooting and it was apparently very effective.
Granted the big jump in drone tech since then, but at least it’s a proof of concept.
Mossberg 500s loaded with bird shot are already being used in theater.
Two short of barrels to actually do any good unless the drones are very close.
Why not something like a Taurus Judge or Smith and Wesson governor? Seems like they would be safer and easier to carry/maintain/train on?
Have you ever held one?
Few firearms have ever been so successfully marketed that are so awkward, and clumsy to handle.
OTOH, few handguns are remotely as capable, ballistically, as a Judge loaded with flechette shells. Twenty-eight 2.5x40mm hardened tungsten-steel alloy darts was the standard .410 defense load among those who could make it or find it in the 1970s and 80s, from military surplus flechettes sold by the pound ($28 per pound plus $4 S&H, last time I saw them advertised).
About the closest you can get, now, is to buy a box of sheets of industrial nails for a pneumatic nailer at any hardware store, and roll your own.
@@davidgoodnow269 You think this weapon would be easier to wield? The ammo cost is def a reasonable argument though, as is the much smaller load of 410 vs 12ga. But still a weird electronically fired plastic gun meant for flares and other niche rounds doesn't seem like a good solution. Neither does having to carry a duty rifle and and a traditional l12 ga shotgun on top of all the other gear they need. I think a revolver in a holster to replace the sidearm that likely rarely gets used may be a good compromise?
@@davidgoodnow269 forgot to answer the question though. Yes I thought it was fun for one cylinder of 00 buck but then my palm convinced my brain that it was super dumb. I'm a big revolver guy and regularly shoot and sometimes carry my taurus 605, but yeah buck shot def not meant to be fired from a revolver lol
@@bw4593 This signal gun is made in Ukraine, and sold in the E.U. for €400 MSRP. What's it cost a Ukrainian soldier?
If I understand correctly, the shells it fires are about a half-inch bore; 28-gauge is .55-inch, so I am guessing that. It shouldn't be more than 1½-2 inches thick, so it's basically pistol-sized; just a matter of figuring out some kind of holster -- more like a sheath.
I am wondering if the shells are reloadable. Electrically primed, so no primer cap -- more like a spark plug? I know almost all aircraft cannons have been electrically primed since World War II, but I don't know how that priming system works.
Oh, I picked up from another comment that this guy is loading flechette, not round shot, so, much longer range and much greater damage.
Steel is lighter than lead, but let me math: 4 * 66-grains is 264 grains, and 28 * 12-grains is 336 grains. I might be really off on the number of darts . . . and the weight of the darts, too!
How do you like the Judge with .45 Colt? I like the Ruger Redhawk .45 Colt/.45 A.C.P. convertible, but the Judge is actually the cheapest .45 revolver I've been able to find!
@@davidgoodnow269 I thought it was using standard 12ga rounds with standard primers, just like flare guns. I think the electrical component is just for the rotation of the cylinder and moving the firing pin . I agree the flechette rounds make a lot of sense for neutralizing drones, with the added benefit of being useful if shit hits the fan and all you have is your pistol. A face full of razer sharp darts to the face is probably worse than some underpowered bird shot, though I guess I’d vote for neither 😂😂. I’ve only shot 00 buck out of the judge, but don’t own one. I have way too many other things on my list 😂. My next impractical revolver will probably be something in 500SW Mag (because obviously that’s really pleasant to shoot)
Wouldnt it be extremely effective to combine a device like this or with a bit longer barrel with some kind of portable radar system to protect small vehicles/encampments or machine gun positions against drones? Like some kind of miniature cram?
Jamming the signal is the easiest way to go. Ive had my fpv video freeze up just from other drones being too close.
It might be better in an under barrell configuration. But if you're going under barrel then a masterkey might be better.
The problem is FPVs have explosive payloads with a kill radius exceeding the practical range of this weapon.
The only good thing about this is its size and its light weight. But the price is genuinely outrageous for what is essentially a multi barrelled flare gun. Hell, even a flare gun has better ergonomics. They could add a foldable grip or something atleast and ditch the 5 barrelled designed and use a double barrel or quad barrel so that they could recycle already existing double barrels
There are revolvers that shoot 410 shells that have better range and accuracy with similar weight and size comparisons.
The electronics and batteries make it a bad choice for high intensity situations.
Might as well carry a sawed off shorty. If they want better portability they can easily design a folding stock attachment and/or a stock with telescoping capabilities.
FYI that is a concept which this particular radio engineer promotes. The firing community stands against such option, semi-automatic 12-gauge rifle is way better for distances up to 50meters.
underbarrel shotgun (3-5 shot) or large shotshell in VOG launcher
Oh, and seeing as the next video is going to be about shotguns, if there are some to be found, could you mention use of Saigas and derivative AK-based shotguns during the war? I had no luck in my own research. Many way more odd weapons have popped up, so it would be surprising if there were no documented uses of it in the war in Ukraine.
It might be able to launch small ever so lightly weighted nets which could be used for drones or animals.
Although the barrell length (28" - 32") would be an obviouse issue, you'd have to imagine that a semi-auto wildfowling 12 or 10 bore shotgun, with a heavy wildfowling load, would be very effective against most drones/LM's. I think the main issue would be having a man-portable early warning system to allow you to deploy it in time.
With a good choke an 18” barrel is nearly as effective you really get diminishing returns as far as velocity after 18-20” in a shotgun. And believe it or not barrel length doesn’t effect pattern much it’s all about the choke. Waterfowl shotguns have long barrels to maximize sight radius, and smoothness of swing and a bit to improve velocity.
That is exactly what is being used now, and electronic detection is all about the video stream every drone continuously transmits to its controller. But Tektronics spectrum analyzer is not cheap, still about $3,000, and intended to be bench-mounted not bounced around; so most detection is purely by unaugmented humans with no training except the experience of war, because only top-level V.I.P. protective details get actual sensory training. That takes two weeks for the senses class, a week of familiarization with sensory augmentation, and then two weeks of live practice detecting and localizing drones.
Do they make a round that acts like an AA round and explodes near targets? That might help. If that round is also omniversal in detecting and detonating near enemy troops it might also help. Maybe an exploding spam round instead of a pure shotgun spread round.
I.e. Proximy fuse
…looks like a 12 Gauge 3.5” 00 buckshot shell would fit nicely 😂 …close-quarters defence?..No sweat!
Shooting down Drones at eye level? Come on!😂😂😂
I would want something longer to aim it. Then distance to the target would be an issue.
Typically, attack drones use a warhead from a hand-held anti-tank grenade launcher, weighing about 2 kilograms. Such a charge is dangerous for the shooter; the grenade launcher has a lock that prevents the warhead from exploding at a range of less than 20 meters.
A 12 gauge shotgun can damage a drone at a range of 40 meters, no more. A hand-held device for firing 12-gauge ammunition is unlikely to be able to intercept a drone at a distance of more than 20 meters. Moreover, the drone flies very quickly, the first shot is too far away, and you may not have time to fire the second.
The device is interesting, but it is unlikely to be effective. A special note about the electronic system: it may not work very well in mud or water.
Honestly why not just use a revolver that shoots 410 shotgun shells already and make a shotshell/Birdshot to you're liking for drones. They do make some shotgun shells with little arrows/ darts in them I can't recall what they are called but I believe they would do fine with the proper wad behind them and a resin printer you could probably print the ammo.
yeah, a 12-gauge saiga that fits in a school backpack is better. Also, I've heard rumors that it can be converted to fire full auto. Also, if we want compact there's taurus judge, cheaper, better, multifunctional, rifled .410 birdshot can spread just as good.
The "we don't support this kind of use" has the same vibe as a dad saying: "but don't shoot at each other!", while handing over his slingshots to his sons...
Range ! If you see the videos of engagements (brutal) - if it doesnt prevent the charge to set off - you will still get hurt.
They need a rnd full of super fine threads that'll tangle a FPV.
as the ZSU serviceman stated, i believe this a great catalyst for MANPDD
I'm surprised we haven't seen more 3-gun style semi auto shotguns being used for drone defense. They can hold a lot of rounds, engage targets past 70 metres with the right ammo and chokes, and deliver significant payloads of tungsten pellets, which would be devastating against relatively cheap drones. Add in the ability to fit optics and use 3.5" shells, and they would be a great tool for that job. I bet there are plenty of Baikal MP-153 and similar shotguns around Ukraine and Eastern Europe.
Bismuth (trade name Hevi-Shot) is what is preferred against drones, not the much-more expensive tungsten. It's already commercially available all over Europe, rather than being restricted to military purchasers, and bismuth being heavier than lead retains more energy farther than lead.
Waterfowl loads and an extra-full choke.
does it fit in a mag pouch?
Probably not a mag pouch but a bigger utility/waterbottle pouch or a dump pouch probably.
@@TheArmourersBench ah ok. That's definitely an advantage
I wouldn’t be surprised if higher density shot like tungsten we use for turkeys ends up being pushed into service. I know folks who at 100 yards still achieve a good shot pattern
Turkish break action shotguns are cheap (in the US) now, maybe a bulk order could be placed….. seems like a more practical solution if a shotgun type weapon is the goal.
Lots of people saying "JuSt GeT a ReAl ShOtGuN" but all I'm seeing is: fits perfectly into a webbing pouch so you can have your normal rifle and ammunition unaffected.
Knowing shotgun ballistics I cant possibly see how this can be effective unless you are just a few metres away, there is no barrel to homologate propellant gasses...
I mean if it was an under barrel attachment could be more of a multipurpse device