Easy-Listening Legalism | Theocast
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- čas přidán 25. 08. 2024
- Jon and Justin follow up on the conversation last week about smuggling works into faith. Today's episode is a little different than the norm. The guys critique teaching from John Piper, John MacArthur, and Doug Wilson on the relationship between faith and works. Multiple excerpts and quotes are cited, all of which are available in the show notes. The reason for this episode is to defend the clarity of the gospel--that we are saved by Christ alone and receive his merits by faith alone, apart from any works we could ever do.
Semper Reformanda: Jon and Justin talk about the legitimacy of critiquing doctrine that has been publicly taught and distributed. And then, the guys make a number of observations about the ways social and political concerns seem to be the tie that binds in many conservative Christian streams.
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The most dangerous heresies are not the ones that are obvious error, but those which are “almost right”. It is so hard to recognize the counterfeit that looks so close. Thank you for your discerning ministry that helps us see errors that are so hard to recognize.
The more you know the Word the easier it is to spot the errors. Staying diligent in the Word is important if we desire to discern truth from error. I believe it should be one of our top priorities.
Yep, legalism (Lordship Salvation) and antinomianism (Free Grace) are good examples
Does he REALLY teach legalistic?
So bad works.such as murder or viiolent acts or drunkeness or depravity will not determine eternal destiny. They surely will unless one repents, asks God's forgiveness and conforms their life to Christ. Unfortunately not everyone does that and so their eternal destiny is confirmed.
@@georgem.6923 exactly! Free Grace theology is a good example of that
This was so well done!
I was hurt and confused by all three of those men. I'm so thankful for the clarity of the Reformation and the Confessions. Thanks for clear Gospel proclamation and helping us see how this isn't faithful to how Protestants have historically understood salvation.
Love you guys! This is a timely message for the Church!
I completely agree that we must avoid those who preach ANOTHER gospel because they WILL lead you wrong in other things. If the Gospel is the foundation that we build our lives on, you cannot listen to those people for other things. If you don't have the Gospel right, you can't properly divide the Word of God because the Gospel is the foundation of all doctrine.
Y’all should invite the folks of opposing views on to have a good discourse on these topics. Appreciate the videos of getting your views out, but it would be great to see discourse (not debate) with these folks you address.
Wow. Thank you for the precise explanations there at the end. I went and watched the JW discussion with DW and he was seemingly in agreement with what Christian’s believe however I didn’t catch the implications of what he was saying by some of what he said, largely because he uses a lot of the same language as you guys mentioned. Everything you guys said was perfectly clear why the concern with him is so grave, more so than I even first realized.
Also thanks for your ministry! My faith has been one of rest having listened to you guys really distinguish law and gospel and show that through scripture. ❤
Thank you for this podcast on these errors. I am an OPC congregant and I still see Piper's and MacArthur's two-tier justification teaching, where sanctification has become a synergistic work toward one's 'final salvation', prevalent among my peers where they spend much time looking inward at what they are doing instead of looking at Christ and what he has done. I am fortunate my pastor is dead set against Doug Wilson's teaching ( he has told me himself he thinks it is heresy) that he won't let it take ahold in our church, though in these overtly politically obscene and grotesque secular times, the Federal Vision (or whatever it is re-packaged as) can be very seductive.
All 3 men are expert communicators, eloquent and knowledgable on how to talk and write so they can influence their readers and hearers. But with that talent comes the ability to say just enough to get someone to agree with you, and say it in a way the recipient may not know they disagree, or if they do think something is wrong, won't be able to communicate their misgivings because the arguments they have heard are so well spoken (I speak as one who for 25 years could not say why I thought Piper's view of sanctification was wrong, or MacArthur's Lordship Salvation was correctly against easy believism but also thinking that what it advocated was not quite correct ).
"And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." 1 Cor 2:1-2 (ESV).
That free ebook was great!! At 50 yrs old. I worry about this all the time. This war that I have within me. Sometimes I’m at peace but then other times I get swept away after hearing someone preach something out of context. Thanks for this ebook guys!! 🙌🙌🙏
Thanks for sharing
We need to focus on being grounded in the Gospel if we want to stop being "tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine." It helped me to realize that all doctrine must be interpreted with the Gospel as the foundation. Calvinism, Arminianism, and others, build backwards. They use doctrine as the foundation to build a gospel on, and they end up with a false foundation/gospel. The scriptures make much more sense when the Gospel is your foundation, and it is MUCH more peaceable!
Thanks guys!!
Your videos always inspire thoughtful conversations for my family to discuss. Thank you for another video. If salvation and obedience were in fact inseparable, how would you ever have assurance? How much evidence of obedience and good works need to be present before you can know you’re saved? That’s a major problem right there--knowing how much fruit (obedience, good works, whatever) needs to be present before we can know God has saved us. So thankful we are saved through faith!
Thank you for this episode guys. How is it that there are so many varying and even opposing interpretations of scripture by so many Christians who are all adamant that they are right...I have such a hard time understanding that.
Thank you for the clear explanation of these false teachings. So much appreciated!
With coming out of evangelical church, trying to understand and embrace Reformed theology, there’s a lot I need to learn and it’s honestly overwhelming. Truthfully, all this heretic/who’s right, who’s wrong feels quite demoralizing to me. Kind of feels like politics… if you don’t agree with me, “you’re a threat to democracy”. … or in Christian circles, a heretic.
Maybe with everything else in the world feeling so at odds, it would be nice to not have that in the church, but maybe I’m asking too much.
Totally agree
I would just stick to a biblical Church, and focus on Holiness. No church is perfect but that’s why we’re eagerly waiting for Jesus Christ our Lord right? How great will our unity be then.
If you don't have the Gospel right, it doesn't matter what else you believe or don't believe. And, it doesn't matter what you do or don't do. Make the Gospel your foundation to build on. Any so-called gospel that uses doctrine to build a gospel is a false gospel. Doctrine is only properly interpreted with the Gospel as the foundation. Doctrine is NOT the foundation! It is what is built on the foundation! Remember that and you won't falter. The foundation is "a sure foundation." It's rather simple.
I use Mc Arthur Daily Devotionals for two years..but having struggles lately when I followed and become avid listener to your program..I thought just because he can be access in sermon audio He Is Reformed.Iam from Italy and difficult to find a Reformed Church..and just attend an Evangelical Church.I have struggles specially in our group study.I downloaded Arden Hodgins sermon series on the whole 1689 Confessions of Faith..and continuesly listen to them through my phone.learning your Channel I post It and share in my facebook and friends and had compelled me to study the Wesminster Confessions through genevan Institute study site and your audios.
Mr Carlito: Milan, Italy has a reformed mission that is excellent!! Rev. Michael Brown, from Westminster Theological Seminary Escondido California. Michael's amazing book "Sacred Bond" explaining covenant theology, will uplift you. Find Rev. Brown here: www.missionmilan.org/contact
❤ excellent!
Thank you for weeding through Doug Wilson’s heretical teachings in a way I can understand 👍🏼
when james said faith without works is dead he was showing cause and effect ...paul said those with lesser faith are always worried about what they eat what they drink .etc.i believe the weaker the faith the more the person tries to add works so they feel better about their insecurities and doubts
I agree with you to a degree. However, following your logic we might wrongly conclude that the more mature a person is in the faith, the less works they will do (both, omission and commission), which will be contradictory to biblical faith.
@@johndavolta3124 your logic is wrong to think a more mature ,spiritual,strong in faith believer would ever believe that way
@@chrisarmstrong3200 well, some Free Grace adherents certainly believe that.
There are few pastors that would have the courage to rightly criticize MacArthur and Piper. Well done brothers. You are to be rightly commended.
The one exhortation I would have for you, Jon and Justin, is for you to be more clear that MacArthur’s Lordship Salvation and Piper’s Final Salvation “gospels” are false (not just confusing) gospels and are of the same “faith + works” kind as found in Galatians. This, of course, takes even more courage, but it is right and necessary. See Gal. 2:5.
Many continued blessings brothers in your defense of the gospel of the grace of God. Acts 20:24.
The Bible speaks of what is called a "Golden Thread of Redemption". Romans 8:28-30:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
It’s just like the five crowns we may receive to lay at Jesus feet are given to us to lay at Jesus feet. We don’t earn them we do it out gratitude for God’s Grace. One of the things Satan tries to steal from us.
Your podcast gives me great food for thought! Some say that justification is monergistic but sanctification is synergistic. For example, Confessional Lutherans. Do you disagree?
Compare to Heidelberg Catechism (w/ scripture refs) Belgic Confession and Canons of Dordt. These are the "3 Forms of Unity" for the United Reformed Churches of North America (a federation not denomination.) FYI
Luther wrote that the anabaptist and the papist are two foxes tied at the tail. They both are semi-pelagian. They both have a synergistic soteriology. Our theology is the cross not the theology of glory.
How do we know the differences between self righteousness and a desire to please God?
What is a gospel understanding of the final judgment passages such as sheep and goats, or when did I see you hungry type passages
It depends: some language is "eschatological" and some "apocalyptic" style literature. However, simply put: 1. Jesus, Lord of his people, will rightly sort out the destiny of pretenders (tares + wheat) in the visible church 2. The "hungry" passage, Jesus is alluding to sanctification where we believers are free to act in care for neighbor (mercy/love) on account of our gratitude to Jesus for salvation.
The ESV Study Bible, and/or Michael Horton's "Ordinary" book are reliable study helps. A fascinating and reliable study of Revelation by Dr. Kim Riddlebarger (free online) is also good. FYI
Believers are so damaged by Adam's fall that we are still prone to twist and distort God's irresistible grace into something earned or deserved. God help us all. Imagine a billionaire watches me murder his only beloved son and then forgives me. adopts me, and makes me his legal heir as if I had never committed the crime. I then proudly (but thankfully) insist on at least working a part time job to help him pay bills. The father is astonished that I would offer to help a billionaire pay bills. That's not to say the father condones laziness in his adopted son but that all bills are paid such that I don't have to work and can hardly do anything but love the father I will never deserve. The sin of pride is so insidious, subtle, and selfish that only God the Holy Spirit can convict us and liberate us from this folly and by his power alone live for the glory of his name and spread of his fame.
Yes. And, it's actually insulting to the billionaire that your two cents could even make a difference!!
Excellent example. But the other side of the error would also be damaging since it would be for the son to squander more money without any regard since the father already paid the billionaire bill. A.K.A antinomianism (Free Grace)
Oh dude your in Asheville cool!
Once again Semper Reformanda just has the audio of the CZcams video. No new content.
If salvation is by grace through faith and not of works, but works are produced after salvation, how many works are required to maintain it? Because the interpretation of Theocast is confusing. If people lack enough or any works in comparison to other people, are they then not saved? If so, is salvation then of works and not just by grace through faith?
Repentance is defined as changing of the mind. It can therefore be a prerequisite to faith (see Mark 1:15). We, however, need to repent after faith if our understanding of salvation is skewed.
Your basic question is embedded with a false assumption. “How many works are required to maintain it” is like saying how many apples are required to maintain the life of the apple tree. That’s totally backwards. The fruit does not cause the tree to live, the tree’s life is the cause of the fruit.
Now because of the besetting nature of the flesh and individual sanctification, the amount of fruit in a believer’s life will fluctuate. But the basis for spiritual life is found in trusting Christ and bearing His righteousness. The descriptions we find in the Bible of Christian obedience are descriptive of the effects of salvation, not causative.
That is the typical insufferable _Free Grace_ argument. Your argument wrongly assumes that somehow reformers believe people need to do works to "maintain" salvation. That is incorrect. All that was said is that works are a natural consequence of faith. Now let me ask you this: how many works should we *stay away from* so that we don't fall into self-righteousness? Two works per week? Three? Perhaps just one?
Legalism fails to consider the severity of God. Romans 11. The precision of God is infinitesimal. Not killing someone is not enough, it is perfectly loving another. It is to love the lord WITH ALL YOUR BEING. Grace becomes a cliche, a catchphrase, if you do not consider this. Works then must enter in. No more amazing grace, no more a wretch like me.
John Piper teaches doctrines rather questionable. Bob Wilkin even referenced a book released by him and critiqued the doctrine of salvation by works being taught. Desiring God also refers to empathy as “sinful”. Not to mention how John questions at least the desire for God and at most the salvation of people who are tattooed, drink alcohol, play games, watch movies, and much more. He equates such behavior as unbecoming of Christians. Something that causes people to doubt the salvation which God has assured.
I agree with Wilkin's take on Piper in this particular case. but Wilkin is an antinomian, so I take his content with a grain of salt nevertheless.
I agree that all 3 of these positions are wrong and contrary to Sola fide
However I find it kind of weird how harsh you are on DW and soft on JM and JP
It seems to me that you would either be harsh in all 3 or softer on all 3
some positions are worse than others
@tomtemple69 no doubt
I just have seen the lordship salvation stuff wreak havoc on people and their assurance
@@jackcrow1204 Doug Wilson's position teaches that you can be saved by baptism and keep salvation thru obedience...
Jmac's lordship salvation just causes doubt but they are still saved by faith
John piper is similar to jmac,it's like the catholic view of James 2
Doug Wilson believes in covenantal election aka you can be in the covenant by your own actions and choices, that is the most problematic of the 3 in my view
I am in a conversation with someone who thinks Adam definitely needed faith in the Garden before the Fall. "I'm not insinuating Adam could have fulfilled the covenant by faith alone. He could not have. But faith is trusting in God and taking Him at His word. I do not agree that Adam could not have had faith. I believe he could have trusted in God to resist the temptation from the devil. But he didn't. My point is obedience and faith are not totally separate. They accompany one another. For Adam, he would have fulfilled the covenant by obeying God's command to abstain from the fruit. Faith would have been involved, but not the cause of his staying in the covenant. The works would have been.
When I said faith was a gift to fallen sinners and Adam was not a fallen sinner......"Faith is a gift to fallen sinners and Adam was not a fallen sinner. He could have had faith ungifted."
Sounds like whoever you're talking to is absorbing a lot of Doug Wilson/Federal Vision theology.
@@christophersmith7412 Doing a search....The Church of the Great God ( one of the offshoots of Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God) believes Adam had faith before the Fall and failed the test because of his unfaitfulness. CGG is a cult. Another person commented to me that all of the NAPARC churches have been wrong on baptism for the last couple hundred years. Doug Wilson has it right. All of these comments are being made on a Fight, Laugh, Feast podcaster youtube channel....AD Robles.
@@Dizerner @Diz, Adam was created with the ability to not sin and with the ability to sin. It had nothing to do with " free will" as understood by Arminians. After the Fall, mankind could only sin. "Adam was not attempting to merit or earn anything/.....it was a gift of grace." Nope. Adam was created sinless.....and that wasn't because of " a gift of grace." Adam was under the covenant of works.......He HAD TO EARN eternal life.
"Adam had to trust God over his wife." No. Adam was charged to keep and GUARD the Garden. Adam was supposed to throw Satan out of the Garden.
@@Dizerner Adam would have earned eternal life for himself and all mankind......but he didn't. The second Adam, Jesus Christ, DID earn eternal life for all those given to Him by the Father before the foundation of the world. Yes, eternal life must be earned.......either by you ( and you can't do it), or you place your trust in the person and work of Christ ( who did earn eternal life for those given to Him by the Father).
Adam was created with the ability to not sin or not to sin. After the Fall, you do not have the ability to not sin. Your desire is to only sin. Your will has been effected by the Fall. Only after the Holy Spirit regenerates ( born from above) a fallen sinner and brings them from spiritual death to spiritual life, then gives the believer the gift of faith, and a new heart with new desires.....only then does someone turn to Jesus and place their trust in Him. @D, God is sovereign and humans have personal responsibility.
@@Dizerner Do this and live, do this and die......is a covenant of works.
This video was sent to me by a friend who claims to be a Christian, but lives a life of indulgence and selfishness. You have really beaten home the idea that you are saved through faith alone, and works account for nothing, therefore "Christians" can go on living like the world does because it doesn't matter if one is obedient to Christ.
It sounds like you clearly don't understand what these men are saying. Bashing other pastors isn't going to make you look better.
Yet they have contradicted that very idea numerous times. Just because a person uses a right idea to prop up wrong behavior does not make the idea wrong. I likewise know people who are legalistic, believing that works merit salvation. By your own logic that makes your own ideas wrong as well.
Becky, why do you think Theocast are what you would call " free gracers" or " easy believism"? Do you possibly hold to John MacArthur's " Lordship Salvation"?
You need a prism to create a rainbow. Without a prism, there will not be a rainbow. The two are inseparable, yet one causes the other. Faith (the prism) naturally produces good works (the rainbow). Good works does not produce faith. The mantra "faith alone" has been taken by the extreme as a license to sin. No amount of paint will produce the rainbow that only a prism can make. By saying that faith and good works are inseparable, men like these twist it to imply that someone like me believes in a works based righteousness. That is slander at best.
@@beckystallowtreasures977what are good works? What are your good works? Theres lots of people in the world that dont believe in Jesus that live a good life and they are good to there neighbors, they dont break the law and some are probably better citizens then you. So why would a good atheist go to hell? What if they are better then 90% of christians. I know many people in the world that dont believe in Jesus and live good lives and have a heart for the poor. I know of atheists cops that uphold the law and protect there neighbors all the time. The thing is you cant say just because a believer lives like the world there not saved because many non believers live good lives in the world and there not saved. People are only saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ period. Like i said I know of many people who are not saved that probably have more good works then you. I'm sure there are many orothdox Jewish people living in the Holy land today that by comparison are better then you and follow the law of the world and the law of God better then you and yet there not saved because even the most rightous person in this sin sick fallen world all fall short and there best day is a filthy rag unto the LORD
to think that your works count towards justification show you don't understand Paul's teachings and want to have something to boast about
please stop
We all as fallen in Adam stand in Gods criminal court house as sinners guity as charged. We have all been arraigned of the exact charges have gone before the grand jury and are now ready to stand trial for all our crimes against heaven. The trial is over and The jury has deliberated and found us gulity as charged for every count. We now stand before the righteousness judge of all the earth to receive our just sentence which is eternal damnation in gehenna. But an advocate suddenly comes before the Judge and pleads on our behalf that he is willing to stand in our place because the advocate pure and innocent can bear the punishment for our crimes since he is a pure sacrifice good enough to offer himself a fit and acceptance sacrifice as a penal substitute.The Judge weighing out the merits of this argument and the virtue of one so noble and good who is willing to offer himself up as a sacrifice on behalf of the guilty so that the Judge on a legal basis is able to release those charged and found guilty with such crimes because the legal terms and conditions of the law can all be met in that a propitiated justice can be obtained. The Judge is agreeable to this legal arrangement and thus declares us the convicted party free to go since there is one who will now stand in our place and pay the full penalty proscribed by law. Our freedom from the guilt and penalty of the law is stipulated by the advocate who took our place to uphold the law and its demand for retributed Justice. The law is satisfied. The Judge is satisfied and we the criminal are set free to persue a life of reform as law abiding citizens of heaven. This is the only form of concept of legalism we ever need to consider. Aoart from that we have been ser free from the legal demands and requirements of the law in order to obey the law from a entirely new perspective that arises from a renewd heart by regeneration thriugh Christ Jesus our all who is in all. A loving heart will be a grateful and thankful heart as well as an obedient heart so long as the motive that prompts and compells obedience to the word of God in all of its evangelical doctrines. If we have such a heart of faith that truly loves God with all of the mind and soul and loves our neighbor as ourselves then our obedience is virtuous and wholesale because it comes about as a work mightily done when we were raised from the dead when we first believed. Always trusting in what Jesus did for us and what we have soley in him then we need not fear or the God who loves us and sent his Son into the world to give himself up for us. Nor would we ever think that we can please or are accepted by God for our own work apart from Christ and the Holy Spirt in us. If we truly understand the work and nature of grace in the Lord Jesus we can never have the audacity to stand before an infinitely holy God in and of ourselves and be received in good favor as righteous.
While we never boast of our righteousness since in our fallen Adamic natural state we have none but knowing who and what we now are in the Lord by Sovereign grace we persue a life of holiness and utter selflessness in order to honor and bring glory to our gracious and merciful Triune God who has saved us amd made us his own. Sovereign grace how sweet the sound that saved and sanctiied a wretch like me!
This channel is very stimulating and one of the best on the Tube! Great work brothers. Gods blessings to all who love the Lord in truth and obedience.