A cure for cap sucking C&B revolvers
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- čas přidán 9. 06. 2016
- A common problem with replica Colt cap & ball revolvers is their tendency for the hammer to pull spent caps off of the nipples and to drop them into the action, causing a cap jam. I call this condition "Cap Sucking."
There have been a number of modifications developed by modern shooters to prevent this situation. Most of them involve drilling holes and installing pins, welding on cap guards, or installing expensive, after-market nipples.
I think I have found a simpler solution that just involves a little de-burring and stoning. - Sport
Great video but you need to keep that guy with the big giant head from blocking the shot when you're working.
Yeah, but that guy does a pretty fair job of gunsmithing and reloading cartridges.
Wow
I can picture Mike himself chuckling at this one lmao
Mike I have been watching your videos for a year and half. You're the reason I bought my Pietta 1860 Army. I have had nothing but pure hell with this gun. But watching more and more of your videos I have gained so much information to alleviate different errors I was making. This video by far is the best for problem solving the cap suck. Keep up the great work!!
This is huge news. Since the late 1960's shooters have had to live with cap jams. I refused to use slick shot cones because they were too farby. I think you really do have both the cure and the reason why this wasn't a problem in the 1840s-1870s. If this vid doesn't go viral, it should!
Hi Mike, You inspired me to make those improvements 3y ago. I fixed by this over a dozen revolvers, and it always works. That's a brilliant way to make Colt revolver replicas way more better and reliable. Thank you
There is historical record of how some people took care of this issue. A bandito had a habit of firing a round, then jerking his pistol upright as he pulled the trigger. This was curious, since he had to realign his sights and bring the barrel down to bear down on his target. This was because, this was his method of preventing the cap from lodging into the action. He let gravity and his sudden jerk, dislodge the cap and send it away from his pistol. I heard about this in Tales of the Old West.
That makes sense. So the jagged edges can cause the cap to sort of pitch into the grooves of the hammer and stick. Good spot! Thank you for sharing.
Cap Jams, or Cap Sucking, was a problem with period Colt open top revolvers as well:
"He [Harry Morse] spun around in time to see Juan Soto holding his pistol high over his head. Morse knew that Soto had a reputation as a dead shot and that his style of shooting was to raise his pistol straight up, then drop it suddenly down and fire the instant the weapon was level. Many gunmen used this technique in an effort to allow each fired percussion cap to fall from the cylinder as not to jam the pistol." Excerpt taken from the book "Lawman: The Life and Times of Harry Morse, 1835 - 1912", by John Bossenecker. In early 1871 Sheriff Morse had tracked a wanted outlaw by the name Juan Soto to his hideout in the Saucelito Valley, in the mountains south of Pacheco Pass in Northern California. The ensuing gunfight was famous in it's time, but most modern historians seem to forgotten about it.
Edit: I found an episode of "Wild West Tech" that features the gunfight between Morse and Soto.
11:26 czcams.com/video/W1jc-xJ0b30/video.html
Very informative video. I'm brand new to cap and ball revolver shooting and don't have the level of experience that you and some of your subscribers have. I had previously thought that this "cap sucking" issue was actually the cap cup fracturing when the cap detonated causing it to fall off the nipple when the hammer was cocked which jammed the action. I stand corrected.
Thanks for the tip Mike. I got tired of the JB WELD thing which wasn't a complete cure for me even with the Slix Shot nipples. After my 51 Navies refused to cooperate at a Cowboy shoot this past weekend, I came home to find this video. Spent the next day following your suggestions and went to the range this morning(retirement is great!). The Uberti 51 Navy ran like a charm for about 40 rounds and will try it on the other one. Keep making your great videos, they are appreciated!!
Thank you! I have the Pietta Colt Navy as well and I have yet to shoot a full six shots without a cap jam. Phenomenal information!!!
Now that's an easy and inexpensive way to fix that problem. I got my Arkansas stones and my diamond file kit over a month ago. Now I can start slicking up my actions and fix this problem. I almost stopped shooting my colts just because it was a royal pain getting the caps unstuck constantly. Thanks Mike. And it's great seein ya again.
Nice to see you're back!
Great video. Love that you are coming out with more videos !!!
I am glad to see this actually works. I put the slix-shot nipples on my Pietta 1851 Navy and, while they helped, they did not completely cure the cap suck and hammer jam issue. Arrrrggghhhhh! I had planned on painting a pin with release agent and lowering the hammer onto it while the J-B Weld was still pliable to make the hole and the pin match quite closely. I had hoped this wouldn't allow the caps to deform to the hammer and get pulled off. I like your friends solution much, much better.
Just raise the gun vertically when you thumb back the hammer. Everyone USED TO KNOW this.
Great Video!, Very well done sir!.Im not a big blackpowder guy, but I do have a 1858 Remington with the buffalo barrel. it was my late brothers. Ive always been a shooter, but not BP Revolvers so much. This vid will help ALOT ofr guys out!!...So, again, well done sir!,,,And yes, I subbed
Good to see that little tip work. Ill try that on my next 1851.
I can't wait to give this a try. Thanks a million!
Very glad to see these problems being addressed on You Tube. So many folks have been discouraged and give up shooting these fine handguns. Not caring to be seen on You Tube, I do appreciate folks curing problems I have taken care of many years ago. Unfortunate problems I have noticed thru the years is the failure of quality control and attention to detail. Specifically, hardening the components before deburring. These hardened burrs, as small as they might appear, always present a big problem. Only to be handled with stones and the occasional very light, and controlled, touch of the rotary grinder. There are more but you touched on one that will run most off. Thank you
This is great news. I was holding out on the JB welds thing. Thanks Mike.
Great fix , cap and ball . Eu showed a pin fitted to the hammer recess that stopped the cap pulling off with the hammer cocking but you method is much preferred in my book , I'm going to try this with my cap and ball revolvers , thanks and I hope your feeling better and recovering well
Great discovery MIke, even though I have only had one cap suck on my Pietta its not something you want to bet your life on (if you use for game etc at all) and certainly no fun at the range. I was dreading filling in the safety slot with JB because I like to load 6 at the range and use the safety notches. This is ridiculously easy solution and worth a try at the least.
I think your historical guess is is correct. After all there is engineering change there between these and the originals, and Colt would have gone bankrupt during the Civil War if their guns were so unreliable under fire they would have been kept as clubs before taken into combat.
Thanks for the tip and great video Mike. I mix powdered steel with JB weld epoxy and fill in my hammer slot. But your tip may work just as well.
I think you and the guy you and your pal that suggested the cure did a great job. It does make sense...the caps made
today are a little different...and the craftsmanship is a little different. Thanks for sharing the cap suckin' blues(8-).
tried this on my pietta 1851 shot 17 round through it no failure no Jam what a great Solutions thank you
always love your videos. thanks. I have this problem on all my C and B pistols. Uberti seems to be somewhat better. my 1849 pocket is the only one that does not do this. I think it may be the smaller powder charge
Interestingly, I read a story of how back in 1856, a man was having cap jams with his Navy. He took it to a gunsmith to have the 'cylinder filed'. He stated that it fixed the cap jamming problem. He goes on to describe how he lent it to a man for a duel where they both agreed to duel with Navies. Their rules stated to fire all chambers as needed. The one mans Navy jammed after one discharge and the other was able to discharge all chambers. A side note, all 12 chambers of the pistols were discharged at each shooter with only one hit. , AND this one hit struck the pocketed watch of the man, resulting in no injury.
So, it DID happen in the 1800s. It was just a matter of the times. Just like today with all the stupid internet/cell phone connection problems etc. In 100 years people will say something similar,- 'Why didn t , ,'. a n y w a y .
60 years of toolmaking here. The professional way of solving cap sucking is same way work pieces are prevented from sticking to deep drawing dies when using HERF (High Energy Rate Forming i.e. "Explosive Hydraulic Forming").
1) The safety slot must have perfectly flat smooth bevels ground ground into each side. This provides "draft" which makes the workpiece(cap) release from the die(safety slot) after the forming pressure falls to zero.
2) Look up a surface finish called "engine turning". It holds lubricant and prevents perfectly flat smooth hardened ground and mirror-polished steel parts from sticking to each other.
3)Apply Molybdenum Disulfide lubricant to the sides of the slot. It can be as simple as impregnating cotton rag with MoS2 power and "shoeshining" the slot - or as involved as using laser energy to 'burn" it in place.
I will leave it up to each of you to figure out how close you can get to perfection. Just keep in mind the plane of the bevels you will make don't need to extend very far into the slot - a 64th(of an inch)(about .015") worked fine for me. About a 1-in-7 slope (each bevel widens slot by .002") worked fine for me. So you are only making the slot opening .004" wider. I made pretty good circular polish marks with a teeny orbital dental polishing too with a diamond file strapped across it. Ultrasonic cleaning the part to remove grit and filings before putting the Moly coating on it helps, too.
You are welcome !
Cap Sucker = Technical Term
I filed & polished the "fangs", installed Slix Shot nipples, and increased tension on my mainspring by flattening it out a bit which increased tension by about 20% on my Uberti 1851 Navy. I took it out to the range today and had ZERO cap sucks after 42 rounds and every single Remington #10 cap went off on the first strike. The gun was nowhere near that reliable before.Thanks for all of the great information!
What a useful tip! Thanks.
sure and certain, you are a reference in black powder weapons, when we need information and an explanation we come here
thank you for passing on your knowledge to us ♥
as a teenager, i purchased a Ruger C&B and never had a problem. Unfortunately out of production. everybody wanted to buy it or trade up. now I know why.
Thanks a lot for that tip. Didn't think about that, I'm going to try it on my uberti 1862 as it's a big cap sucker (despite its little size).
By the way, my Pietta 1851 has not that problem.
And thank you for your videos, love them.
Great info here! Thanks Mike!
Mike I loved it I did the same using harbor freight diamond set and some light touch with water
Good info sir,thank you,Happy Easter 👍☕️☕️
Awesome!! This is a problem I'm having with my Uberti 1851 Navy. Looks like I have a little work to do :-) Thanks for the excellent tips !!
Now THAT is a useful video! Good work.
I've taken GOW for yrs, but your videos expand and enhance the info GOW has. Thks, Pertinent, educational info is appreciated. Eliminate the back of your head shots. Show thw work on the gun for novices..
I must try this. I was thinking about doing the JB Weld option with a simple for the safety notches but this will be worth a shot first.
Hello, I like your videos very useful. As far as jam sucking I have experienced a solution with shutting the gap on the hammer with JB and very important rub off the needles on the cylinder and yo will be happy. I tried it on my Uberti 1860 cal44 it is great I am a French fan of yours , Sly
I've been shooting cap and ball since the mid-70's but used the Lyman repro .44 1858 copy primarily so never really had an issue with cap sucking. What would happen though, is the caps can get wedged between the cylinder and the frame and jam it up good. However I've gotten more into open tops over the past few years and really believe this will be a useful mod to my '60 Army and 3rd Model Dragoon. Thanks for posting this.
awesome tip Mike thanks
Thanks for sharing!
Great tip Mike, I do believe that large charges and worn cones with enlarged touch holes causing excess flash and pressure back through the cone will also contribute to sucking caps. It seems that the touch holes in cones on older Italian revolvers were not uniform. Even back in the 70's the first upgrades were new stainless steel cones. Great tip. I am headed for the basement to try it out. Thanks for all the super accurate knowledge.
I agree that good quality nipples make a big difference. I love Slix Shot nipples and use them on most of my guns, but this de-burring trick has allowed me to clear the JB Weld out of my hammers...it's all good!
I've heard of this from other sources. Good easy fix. I suspect original caps had more copper in them but I don't know this for sure. MM,,, I would like to respectfully suggest you slow down when showing close-ups to let the camera focus and us the time to see what you want to show. I know its hard to do and show because the camera is in the way but a detailed review would help some of us slower types. Thanks again . I'm glad I subscribed.
Thanks for the tip.
Excellent video, gonna try this ...!!
I just finished changing my 1851 navy over to take small pistol pistol primers took 2 weeks ,but I have it figured out now works great
Fantastic video, I am going to try that with mine.
A heads up to the subscriber that told you how to fix it. Good info to have.
Great info. Thanks.
I liked the video but I think it would be a bit more useful if you could re-do it with the camera placed so that the back of your head didn't block its view, rendering the critical work invisible.Thanks,Gabby
Sounds like Pietta and Uberti need to create their own Performance Centers.
Deep down underneath the burrs and unbroken sharp edges are good replica black powder guns, but when you're a manufacturer time is money and deburring is the first corner that gets cut.
I'm disappointed in Uberti though as they claim to use CNC machining, but if they're not using the CNC machines to make a machined chamfer or bevel to break the sharp edge on their parts, then the prices they ask for are not at a fair market value like Pietta's are.
enjoy your videos and and I have had the same problem with cap sucking with my 1960 Belgian colt. the solution for me came from a documentary on the James Gang. It was mentioned in the piece that after firing the colt the muzzle would be pointed straight up and then cock the hammer. In this position the spent cap can fall out of the action. I have been using this method for 10 plus years and have had little to no problems.
thanks for the great work on this Chanel
nice to see you back. how's your injuries healing?
What I consider amazing, is how the 19th century made Colt pistols, not using modern tooling or CNC machinery, were better made than modern replicas. A testament to Elisha Root’s’ genius.
Thank you, that seems to be an easy fix!
Very smart tip !! thanks
When I first start shooting the weapons years ago, one of the earliest shooters wrote to prevent this problem, bring the weapon to the 12:00 o'clock position.
That helps if the cap falls off and into the action but that's not the only way that this problem manifests. For instance my 1851 navy has this problem but instead of the caps falling into the action they stay stuck on the hammer. So for every other shot I'm having to peel a cap off the hammer so that the next will fire instead of smashing a spent cap against a new one. In cases like mine it is pretty much essential to do this fix.
Good info! Thank you. God Bless America 🇺🇸 🙏 ❤️ 😢 🙌 🇺🇸
People often say that caps were thin like aluminum foil back in the day. If so, the hammer would just crush a spent cap if it got stuck since they're not as thick and strong like they are now. Just a hypothesis based on listening to black powder folks talk.
Hey, that was great, thanks!
Me when someone uses two hands to shoot a shoot a single action: my disappointment is unmeasurable and my day is ruined.
Clean the hammer face and at the bottom of the nipple file a V shaped notch at the bottom or the side closest to the cylinder when fully seated just a bit and that gives the pressure a place to go without the expense of Slick Shot nipple. I was a poor farm kid and I figured out the cheapest way to do gun stuff and my Harley repairs. You would be surprised how many GM and AMC parts fit old Harley's .
Great video Mike! I have been doing the same thing for years now with great success! BTW who makes your vice jaws?
I can't recall. I have three sets. The one in the video with rubber padded jaws, another one with hard plastic jaws and a set I made myself out of aluminum angle iron with leather faced jaws.
duelist1954
Thanks Mike! I have a large set I made out of lead but I would like a set like yours thats easier to work with.
The lead jaws are far better, you just melt them down and re pour into you vice jaw mould, new jaws every week if you need to.
Hi Mike, I had my uberti 44army repaired,
Took six weeks to get it back. Will be more careful with it now.
Great idea, can't wait to try it on my Navies. How has it been working since then?
Could you make an update for this video in the future? I'd like to know if it worked or not with a large amount of testing.
Maybe that was all Colt did? Just break all of the sharp edges on those grooves. Let's get a petition going for Colt to make these again.
Need to make a new video so we can see how you did the work.
I use rubber cap savers off eBay. I'd be more than happy to send you some free of charge. You can test them Mike. They also keep moisture out. Easier to grip and grap the caps. The other cool thing is the caps stay together and don't blow apart they kinda stay on the nipples too some times. I don't like to use them on my Remington. The channel is too big can get more stuck. And the groves rip into the cap more than my pair of piettas colts. You can probably make some cao savers out of cutting rubber tubing. I wanna upgrade my hammer as you did as well.
I have a question for you and I respect your knowledge. How often does chain fire occur I am quite fearful of it and what can I do to make sure it never happens?
Excellent video! I would like to add something that may shed some light on this lack of recounting of the "cap suck" problem in historical context that I have always head as the reason this phenomena was not a large problem. Soldiered issued these revolvers were also taught one very important technique we now call the "cavalry cock". In short holding the revolver vertically while cocking the hammer. Doing this greatly increased the odds of a spent cap,that was pulled off of the nipple, would fall out of the action instead of into it. You being a much more invested person in this era of history; I was wondering if the above procedure was historically accurate as it was recounted to me. As always, great video!
I hear that all the time, but I have trouble believing it. In a fire fight you are going to cock and shoot as fast as you can with no wasted motions that can get you killed. That point up, cock level and fire might work, but very few people will be doing it in an actual gunfight when adrenalin takes over. Elmer Keith cut his teeth on Colt C&Bs and he kept collecting and shooting them all his life. I don't recall him ever mentioning either cap jams or the point up to cock drill. So, in my opinion, and only my opinion, I think it is an old wives' tale.
+duelist1954 I believe I may have found where it comes from. www.storymindmedia.com/angryalien/books/cavalry/Congdons%20Cavalry%20Compendium%20for%20Non-Commissioned%20Officers%20-%201864.pdf
section titled "manual of the colt revolver" has what appears to be what I'm talking about as part of initial revolver training, but not expressly for cap jam prevention. It appears to be a discipline maneuver for trainees.
+Nathan Levy thanks. That was interesting. I agree with you. The raised pistol at the "draw" command looks like a uniform control maneuver, not due to cap jams. I noticed that in the rapid fire section there is no injunction to resume the draw position when cocking each shot. That book is a great little reference. Thanks for sharing it.
+duelist1954 I noticed that as well, combined with your safety notch modification, I'm beginning to see the old wives tale side of it. Learned something today. Glad your shoulder is doin good!
Wow! The trooper should be able to load the pistol at a walk, trot, or gallop. Giddy-up!
that's a gorgeous Dance you did there ;)
As far as color case hardening goes for my pietist, I fin the color washes off when I hit it with blue removing solution.
Dear Mike:
It has been about 3 months now since you have brought this solution for the cap jams to us. What is your evaluation after having lived with the modification for a while now. I was about to modify the hammers and mount a pin in the hammer slot of the frame, but thought I would wait to see how well your hammer smoothing has worked out. Truly this looks like it will solve our problems, if we can ever get caps that fit, I can't get Remingtons, and the CCI caps which are available in abundance just don't work very well.
Have you used the Big Lube Bullets that are meant for the .44 Cap and Ball revolvers? I've been using the .45 250 grain bullet with good success, and I'm wondering if this cap and ball bullet works well in matches?
Don Denison
Are you still polishing and deburring the hammer face to help eliminate cap sucking? Looking for an update after 5 years.
Good stuff Mike! Hey - where did you get those period-correct eye glasses? Those are awesome!
They are antique frames that I found at an antiques store
_"... you could gut a deer on the edges, they're so sharp."_
😊😊😊
Hi Mike, the only Colt replica I own that doesn't have cap sucking is a Pietta 1851 .44 Yank. The hammer face slot has the replica Colt normally sharp hammer slot edges looking rounded like the edges were melted. Your results seem to confirm the reason for my observation for not sucking caps.
However, this still doesn't explain why filling in the hammer face slot doesn't always prevent cap sucking. I fill in some hammer slots with 6% silver solder and smooth the hammer face. Any thoughts why a filled in hammer slot still occasionally cap sucks?
Thanks for this video, it was very interesting.
Regards,
Richard
Thank You !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just a thought, but were the caps different in the mid 19th century? The reason I ask is I notice some brands are worse than others in cap sucking...
Mike , would you change the sight on the 1860 Army 36 cal to shoot point of aim if it were you ?
That was pretty slick.....Where can the hone and stones be purchased? I am definately a noob at bp firearms....Why did you put the other nipples back on? Is it a great difference with the slick shot nipples from factory? Also can you make a trigger polishing that can smooth the action with hone and stones?
Brownell's sells the tools. I have several videos on slicking up C&B revolvers
These type pistols (Colt called them pistols) do require special attention in order to prevent cap jamming. Back in the day, these arms were made better, with more attention to this, due to these arms were relied upon for life and death. Unlike today, where they are just a novelty.
I have historical documentation with accounts of cam jamming issues from shooters, and what they did about it.
I have and fire Authentic Colts. I rarely have any cap jam issues. They all have their original cones (nipples). Experience in handling these types of arms as well as the exceptional finish contributes. ALSO the p r o p e r fitting caps!
hello, and first I really like all ur vids. I'm building a Pieta 1851 colt navy .44 and I need a barrell. I have all other parts. but I can't find one in my price range. Can u help me ?
thanks.
Do you have any information regarding how to get the .005" spacing between the hammer and the nipple?
What about differences in hammer springs? The bounce back is also reduced by six shot...
I've done this fix on a 1851. What happens is the fired cap forms into the safety notch but the gun fires most of the time. Is this a nipple problem? Do I need to polish the edges more?
Maybe its the caps that have changed and the modern caps use thinner weaker cups?
Who says that it didn't happen? I have read that 19th-century shooters, in order to mitigate the problem of spent caps falling into the action, would raise the revolver to the vertical position between shots, the idea being to help the caps fall out. I have found that this does indeed help. Maybe this might be an easier remedy for cap sucking too.
Mike: Do you think the softer foil caps back then made a difference as well? I feel like they would've reacted differently to the gas pressure than the harder modern caps do today. Also perhaps 19th century foil caps were soft enough not to cause a malfunction if they were to have fallen into the action while the shooter cocked the hammer. Just some thoughts.
sjr341 Sure. The softer caps probably helped
I j-b weld the hammer slot closed still cap jamming finally got some slix shot nipples an no more problems
I have an added idea about why it didnt happen in the old days. Its the caps themselves. The old caps were made of foil, correct? Once the primer was punched by the hammer, there was nothing to grab onto to suck back. Primers today are hard metal so lets say if you punch hard metal with a nail, that nail is going to stick and youd have to pull off what you just punched, hence the sucking. Somehow caps have to play some kind of part in this since the old ones were different and modern guns didnt change anything in the hammer designs, did they? Also, the fit of modern caps onto the nipples isnt the same either. So maybe there are three reasons sucking happens.
Mike. Thanks for another great video. Maybe a dumb question do they or could they make a plastic cap with enough flex (a little bit of rubberiness) to fit firmly around the nipple and not splinter or break when struck. Also I was on an individual's black powder blog and he suggested chamfering the cylinders slightly to keep the ball from deforming when rammed into the cylinder kind of goes along with the sharp edges of the repros.
You don't want to chamfer the cylinder edges. The ball is slightly over sized so that when it is rammed home, a small amount of material is removed, thereby ensuring a gas tight seal. This ensures maximum charge efficiency, prevents chain fire and moisture resistance.
Thanks Pelican 1984. I am new to black powder and need the education.
Original Colts, Remingtons, Whitneys, etc had chamfered chamber mouths and slightly tapered chambers to swage the ball/conical into the chamber. This not only made for easier loading, but increased the bearing surface area for a better friction fit on the projectile to prevent movement under recoil. The non-chamfered chamber shearing off a ring of lead is a modern misconception and design error on modern replica C&B revolvers.
Imagine the Glock replicas 200 years from now. Primer sucking
Roflmao
Have you ever noticed a difference in cap sucking repro Colts .36 vs .44?
Better finish on the original Colts. And from what I've read, original Colt caps were a bit thicker and tougher than what we have now and likely not as hot, so they didn't get blown back into the hammer slot as bad.
I have found a better way to cure cap sucking. Get clear vinyl tubing I.D .170x1/4" O.D cut the tubing to 5.52mm. then invert the primer and push the tubing over the primer. This will be good for either #11 caps and #10 caps. This makes it easier to put on the nipple's and will stay on the nipples. Just make sure to seat the cap firmly on the nipple.