Air conditioning in an ordinary British house?! 4K HEAT PUMP
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- čas přidán 9. 07. 2024
- My experience installing air conditioning in every room of a three-bedroomed semi-detached house in the UK. And since it's winter, let's call it a heat pump and see if it can keep me warm for less.
Installers: sub-cool-fm.co.uk/
Sub Cool FM CZcams Channel: / @theoutspokenengineer
Montage video: • AC Install Montage
Hardware:
MXZ-3F54VF3 condenser connected to:
MFZ-KT25VG floor mount unit
2x MSZ-AP15VGK wall mount units
MXZ-2F53VF3 condenser connected to:
MSZ-LN35VGK wall mount unit
MSZ-AP15VGK wall mount unit - Věda a technologie
Awesome stuff, I’m just looking at getting this done with this hot weather we have had past few weeks 😀
Never thought I’d ever be looking for air con installation for a house in Scotland 😀
Good film, thx
When drilling through the brick wall, the guy should have used a long bit and gone all the way through from the inside to the outside. Then he could have taken his boring bit (diamond tipped) and gone through from the inside to out, but stopping 1" before the outside. Then he could have finished the last inch from going from outside to inside. This way, he wouldn't have taken a big chunk out of the brickwork.
I instantly spotted and thought the same!
@@TheRetroBristolian Me too. Some people just don't care.
Yep, typical rough arsed tradesman. Smashing the face off the brick. At least the trunking covered it up.
With a decent diamond core drill there are nog chuncks taken from the brickwork.
Thi is garbage, also the dust is everywhere now.
its the mode on the drill that cracks the brickwork .. they need to turn off the hammer mode
Thanks Rob, I did get a rough quote after posting that and it was about £5k for 4 rooms, so about the same.
Been using mitubishi heavy industries for many years totally reliable and good units.
had my Mitsubishi electrical fitted 4 years ago with no trouble well pleased
Great video. I wonder if you could advise please on how noisy the outside unit is when running - Loud as a ??? Seriously considering one of these, but don't want to offend the neighbours! - Many thanks
Great video thanks. Did the installers have any preference for installing the internal units against an exterior wall versus an internal plasterboard wall? I’ve seen some suggestions that a condensate pump is required if not installing on an external wall (where fluid can drain to outside)
They didn't seem to mind installing on an internal wall. It just means you might have visible trunking. They avoided the need for a condensate pump by having a downward slope on the pipe, which in my case was possible within the diameter of the trunking because the runs were short. I imagine long internal trunking routes are going to need a pump.
Hi good video what was the overall cost of this. I've been thinking of doing this to link with my battery system
That was a nice angle he was drilling with the core-bit
yeah you dont want the cables to snag on the way out
A year later, was it cheaper with the split unit, or was the electricity was cheaper. And if the split unit is cheaper, does it offset the price of the units & the installation.
what about a condensing pump to discharge any water from the indoor units??
Best thing i ever had done .i had 4 fitted ( mitsubishi units ) 3 12000 btu and 1 9000 btu.4 functions .cold heat humidifier and ordinary fan .Had them all fitted 3 years ago here in SE UK.
So nice to be co.fortable i this heat .£1000 each supply and fit .And using them on eco setting and sleep mode they dont seem to be expensive .Also have used them in winter when not really needed CH on .
How s the noise from the interior unit?
With mitsubishi are you using infrared remote or wired ? You mentioned 30kw powered consumption which is 6kw for each unit on standby its a lot. If unit is pressure tested as per manufacturer chances of leak is almost to none unless if you hit something to pipe by mistake.
You can change settings to low power and even ultra low power mode. Engineers who installed the system they can do it but they will have to connect wired remote and mostly engineers carry it with them for programming and diagnostic.
how much cooler can it get in the summer?
Hi i just saw a guy who had them fitted low to the floor and i saw you had one low down , Do you think they are better low donw ?
thank for sharing your experience - very valuable information! I'm in a similar situation - semi-detached house, 120m2 living space, 5-room, 2 story. I wonder myself if a mini-split system be sufficient? I have an oil heater and use about 8000kWh per year for heating.
You would need a 36000BTU system. I think it's only rated like that in the UK though.
Thanks for sharing this video Rob - it is brilliant. Could you give me a rough idea of how much you paid for this type of install, including the units? Apologies if this is in the video or comments as i may have missed it!
Hi Rob, I would be interested to see how you get on with these through the winter in terms of energy consumption and how warm you're able to get the house.
I replied with this under another comment but realised I should have replied here. Anyway, copy and paste:
For energy, my rule of thumb so far is that heating a single room in normal South England autumn/winter weather is definitely a lot cheaper with AC. I can run my LN25 unit for a whole working day for about 4-5kWh. In similar conditions I used about 30-40kWh of gas. But it's not totally equivalent as even with TRVs the gas is heating more of the house at once.
I've noticed some loss of efficiency and heating takes longer in this -2C cold snap. Outdoor unit needs more frequent defrosting. You can hear it working harder. Indoor unit takes longer to start pumping out warm air.
Will update or post another video when I understand my spreadsheets better (I am running an experiment right now in fact. I used no AC yesterday but have the gas off and am running AC in my work room now, so will compare cost for a day's work.)
@@RobFisherUK Thanks Rob. I did spot that reply for the other comment, but I apricate the time you've taken to copy me in!
@@jamesdc1993 little update from my experiment: on 13th December I ran gas heating in the room where I work between 9am and 6pm and it cost £2.36 for 23kWh of gas. On the 14th, similar weather, I used AC and it cost £1.62 for 4.6kWh of electricity. I felt similarly warm. Of course the gas was also heating my bathroom and hallway. But the AC gave off a nice blast of warm air as I sit right under it. One other consideration I have no idea about: what is this doing to the service life of my AC equipment?
@@RobFisherUK Thanks for the update. Sounds like an ideal piece of kit, especially considering it can cool the room and reduce humidity too!
@@RobFisherUK 5 kWh still seem really quite good even if it isn't necessarily heating up every single room
I've got solar panels, and I figure I may be able to run AC partially from solar in the summer. Equally I've got old microbore piping, and tiny radiators so I was thinking maybe it's worth just purring these in, instead of replacing my current set up.
It does seem cheaper either way. The biggy however is the heating of water too
Very interesting. Do you know what refrigerant is used? I assume its non CFC, non-flammable & non-poisonous?
The refrigerant is called R32. It's better than older refrigerants but it is flammable and it probably is somewhat poisonous and you don't want it in your house. So it doesn't leak. The units have leak detection.
Great Vid Rob, Ive been looking into this for heating more that cooling - I have a 5\2 lounges bedroom house about 2500 Sqr foot im looking to add . Im hoping to reduce my Heating bill overall i pay about 300 a month on heatin in the winter heating for about 2-3 hours a day @18 degrees . seems a massive waste but i think for my entire house it would cost me 10-15k how has it affected your bills ? is it still cheaper on elect than gas.
The main problem is that where I am, gas is about 3-4 times cheaper than electricity per kWh, which offsets the efficiency savings of the AC. Honestly I don't think I would save money if I had only the AC for heating. The main way it saves money is in certain situations where I don't need to heat the whole house, e.g. working from home on my own. Also it starts working more quickly, so is better if I want a quick blast of heat.
But I still use the gas at least in the morning to warm the house through. And it's hard to compare year on year because this winter has been so mild.
what was the cost of the installation (roughly) very interested to move my services from gas boilers to AC /renewable . thanks , great video
It was about £1500 per room. If you actually remove your gas boiler a consideration is there might be parts of your house AC can not reach, and there is water to heat, too.
I have been using similar units for some 15 years, I have a simple unit in my garage which is set to maintain 18 degrees C all winter, and two units used for cooling in the house. One is in an upstairs bedroom, the other in a downstairs room. They are currently running , with power from the solar panels on the roof, so no running costs. (sept 2023).
It would have helped the Video if you had stated the installation costs for what is a nice clean job.
What about your energy bill?
Hi. Really interesting video. I’m at the very early stages of deciding what to replace my aging boiler with. I have read you were quoted around 1,500 per room. Are you able to let me know how many you have had installed and after the recent cold weather you thought that was enough? Thanks
I have it in 5 rooms. I wouldn't rely on this as my only heat source as it does not heat the bathroom and hallways like the radiators do. It did cope even in the very cold weather we had in early December. But it is at its best when you are just a bit chilly and turn it on for a short time to warm up, or want to keep warm in one room for a time. Then it is much cheaper than gas heating.
But my system would not replace a boiler because it only heats (or cools) air, not water. I don't know how well my experience would translate to an air to water heat pump system.
Apparently you can get add-on modules that take the heat recovered by cooling in summer and us that to heat the HW cylinder. Dont know how it works in winter heating mode but guessing it uses the opposite flow
Been looking into this a lot, and i think you made the right decision. If you don't mind me asking, What was the total cost?
You're looking at about £1500 per room, plus or minus depending on how fancy you want your wall mounted units and how complicated your installation is going to be.
Git a quote from sub cool for a 2.5kw floor mounted Mitsubishi mini split unit at £2,300 total cost included install. Not sure how your cost was on average £1,500 when the AC equipment alone costs £1,300-1,400 for the aforementioned floor option?
how many pipes go from the heat pump to each unit? is it 2 pipes to each unit causing a mass of pipes, like 10 copper pipes coming out the house... or is it just a 2 pipe loop in total that feed each unit and then T off into other units?
It's not a loop. It's two (pretty thin) copper pipes and a cable from each unit to the outdoor unit. So it could be a mess of pipes and you want to give some thought to positions and routing.
Hi Rob did you have all top of the range LN interior units or some lower spec units as well? Been speaking with Sub cool myself and just considering all the options. Many thanks.
I just went for LN in the big kitchen diner. It looks a bit nicer and has some extra features, such as blowing the air directly towards or away from occupants of the room, using its little camera sensor. It also has a fancier filter.
But I just had AP units in the bedrooms. The smallest 1.5kW ones. They have WiFi and work just fine. You can only adjust the left/right vanes on those with your fingers but it's no problem in a smaller room. They do have the little extra allergen filters. They're not silent but they're quiet enough.
@@RobFisherUK that’s good to know and I believe we’re going down the same path as you.
how loud is the external unit? I've got a 2bed terreced house in a small village and am thinking of getting something like this just for the bedrooms but I worry that the outside unit will be loud enough to bother the neighbours.
It's really not loud. As long as they're at least six feet away I don't think neighbours will hear it.
Which package did you use to integrate with Home Assistant ?
There's a MELCloud integration built in to Home Assistant.
How much do these guys charge roughly to fit a single indoor and outdoor, just the 1?
probably in the thousands sorry for late reply.
Very nice! I have an Mitsi Ecodan and thinking about getting it converted to AC. Should be possible??
Ecodan is air to water I think. I can't think of a scientific reason why the same compressor couldn't drive both air and water heat exchangers but I don't know if e.g. the physical connections exist for it.
No chance. Two totally different systems. Ecodan (A2W) uses water pipework to rads or underfloor & cannot cool, & an A2A Multi split uses refrigerant pipework & fan coil units as shown in this video. The only option you have is to rip out everything you have & start over which will not be very cost effective.
@@colingoode3702 it would be possible to just add an A2A multisplit system in addition to the air to water system. You'd get cooling then at least.
@@RobFisherUK That is true & you would also get heating as well if needed because all small capacity A2A single or multi split systems these days are reversible heat/cool systems. Back in the day you could buy cooling only systems but not any more. That said it might be difficult finding space for the A2A indoor units (especially the low wall mounted type) if you still have rads on the walls in all rooms which means one fan coil & one rad will be needed in each room - one for each system. Both systems would also have independent control systems so there is the possibility for the heating system to "fight" the cooling system if both are run at the same time.
Some monobloc A2W Heat Pump outdoor units can be configured to run in cooling & create a heat/cool A2W system. However, this ability to heat & cool is not allowed "out of the box" to comply with the the old RHI & current Boiler Upgrade incentives so the "modification" has to be done on the QT by a pro. Not all A2W outdoor units can be "modified" in this way so it would need to be checked first to see if it were even possible. However, to create a heat/cool A2W system all the rads would have to be changed for larger / deeper chilled water fan coil units (which will need their own power supplies & condensate drains) & all the pipework (including everything under the floor or boxed in) would need to be insulated & vapour sealed to prevent it from sweating & dripping water when the system was running in cooling mode with chilled water at circa 12-15c running in the pipes. Any UFH heating pipes would also limit the minimum temperature the system could run at in cooling to prevent sweating under the slab floor which in turn reduces the effectiveness of the system.
Whilst technically possible neither option is a very cost effective option as a retrofit solution for an existing Air2Water system. I'm going to ditch my gas boiler at some point & I will replace it with an Air2Air Multi-split system, some electric rads in bathrooms & a separate all-in-on Heat Pump Hot domestic water cylinder. Reason - 1. I want to have the cooling facility as well as heating & 2. I cannot use an A2W system because my existing CH system uses 10mm microbore pipework which are too small for water based heat pumps & to replace all the pipework would be too invasive & not cost effective (T&G chipboard 1st floor & concrete slab ground floor). After 45 years in the HVAC industry I know what it possible & what is not.
@@colingoode3702 yep. Fwiw I have traditional gas central heating and AC and it's a good combination. I can use gas to heat the whole house in the morning (and for hot water) and AC to keep me warm (cheaper) when I'm working from home or otherwise not needing to heat all the rooms.
I can't seem to get figures for efficiency at heating ,at a figure of say 5 degs. You see manufacturers figures of cop 4.2 but what is reality.
It's hard to say, because I don't know how much heat energy I'm getting out. All I can say is it's cheaper than gas when I'm not trying to heat the whole house all at once, which is a lot for my usage patterns. And being able to cool down when it's hot is a valuable luxury.
Did you have to get planning permission for the outdoor unit?
No planning permission is needed as long as it is 1.5m away from any boundary lines
Will the noise from the external unit disturb my neighbours? I intend to leave it on all night during the summer months. And his window is 2m away from where the external unit will be.
I think you’d need to apply for planning permission for outside units and that will be a factor they consider. Apparently some modern air to water heat pumps are really quiet. Aircon are just air to air heat pumps.
You don't need planning permission, but you don't want to annoy your neighbours. These things are quiet but they are not silent. 2m from an open window in the daytime when there is distant traffic sound anyway might be fine. 2m from an open window at 3am when you can hear spiders' footsteps on your floor... might be more of a risk.
Sorry Rob, but you seem to be wrongbthere. Air to Water heat pumps are permitted development for the first unit, and more require planning permission. Air to air heat pumps are not covered under Permitted Development (UK Government trying to discourage their use as they’ll contribute to energy demand and CO2 production in Summer). However, like A2WHP, they *are* zero rated for VAT for several years
@@RobFisherUK considering these as I overheat so easily but am also very noise sensitive. Would love if you could record the noise of AC when sitting in a room quietly reading or some such. You seem like the kind of person who'd even be able to measure the precise decibel level!
@ 3:34 Great installation! Did you receive an electrical Minor Works Certificate from the installation company?
Not a chance from an AC installer hahaha
Being an AC installer myself, I always use an electrician. It reduces profit but if anything happens electrical related, I am covered. Your AC Installers is one of the best around. I thought they’d insist on this.
do you have any details about performance in very dold weather and running costs..
On a day in December 2022 when average outdoor temperature was 5.4C, I kept the whole house warm all day with 8.1kWh.
The next day average temp was 6C and I used 56kWh of gas on heating.
That makes AC seem 6x more efficient, which I don't quite believe, so there must have been other factors. Partly with AC I only have to heat the rooms in use at the time; gas is less controllable. It's hard to run these experiments.
More typically on very cold days I'll use gas heating in the morning because it heats bathroom and hallway too. But then working on my own in a big, cold kitchen/diner, with -0.7C outside temp, use 6.7kWh to keep warm during work hours just in that room.
It's less efficient and there are frequent defrost cycles but it still works well enough and seems cheaper than doing the same with gas, even with most of the other radiators turned off.
@@RobFisherUK Hydro units are starting to trickle into the residential space. I think Daikin are threatening to maybe one day bring the Multi+ to the UK market, eventually. I think the BUS grant with all its stupid stipulations is stifling the UK heat pump market (no VRF/VRV and no cooling allowed). The sooner the BUS scheme gets abolished, the sooner those awful "MCS Certified" heat pumps disappear and make way for more interesting technology.
I'm looking at doing something very similar, however as I'm on solar and storage I'm concerned about this standby power consumption you're referring to. Can you explain why the system is consuming power when it isn't actually heating or cooling? I assume also that the whole system has to be in heat or cool mode so temperature regulation depends on the circulation of air inside your house? Finally it would be useful if you could film the system running without the background music so that we can hear the sounds it makes?
Standby power seems about 30W with all interior units "off", neither heating or cooling. That's self-reported by the system, I haven't measured directly. I guess it's just the electronics doing whatever monitoring they do and waiting for WiFi commands. You can't really turn them off either, as there are warning stickers saying they need to be powered on so the leak detection works.
As for sound, I might try again at some point but everything is so quiet it's hard to record. Inside units just sound like fans. Outside units can only be heard up close and aren't going to annoy your neighbours.
Oh yes, each exterior unit and all interior units connected to it can either heat or cool, not a mixture. But it's not really a problem for me as I'll only heat in winter and only cool in summer.
It’s interesting because the EU mandated a very low standby current draw for devices. I’m surprised that doesn’t apply to these units.
@@sjcsystems indeed. I do think they could do better. It's possible the self reporting is over-estimating. Maybe one day I'll turn off the rest of my house and measure it
I have a similar setup here, but with Daikin units. Just for info, the standby power consumption is so low I cannot detect it with my smart meter. The cost of the heating vs a gas boiler depends on many factors. For me it seems to be averaging out at a lower cost but not by much. I calculate that on the price guarantee cap tariffs, where gas has gone up by more than electric there would definately be a saving. The reduction in energy use also means a lot less in carbon emissions. I'll look forward to hearing more from your experiments.
Would you find them annoyingly noisy to use for heating in winter?
Some people suggest they create air movement which is also uncomfortable?
If you get the radiator style floor mount units they are great for winter, one is shown in this video, there's a little bit of noise but many CH systems make more irritating noises (ticks/whistles)
So far so good. I'm using different combinations of AC heat and gas central heating. Noises are not much of an issue. The loudest noises are when the external unit decides to defrost and the refrigerant inside starts boiling, which could be a problem if you're heating a bedroom at night.
Air movement: I leave the fan speed on auto. Fan runs all the time but when not heating (because temperature is reached) the fan runs slow and the vents (on auto) point upwards away from people. The LN unit I sit near when working. It has a mode that detects where you are and it can blow towards or away from you. Most of the time the air feels warm. Very occasionally the temperature of the air is not warm enough to feel warm when moving so I manually adjust the direction away from me. It doesn't make it feel draughty in general, except perhaps in the smallest room, but it never runs at a high speed for long in there because it heats so quickly.
As for energy, my rule of thumb so far is that heating a single room in normal South England autumn/winter weather is definitely a lot cheaper with AC. I can run my LN25 unit for a whole working day for about 4-5kWh. In similar conditions I used about 30-40kWh of gas. But it's not totally equivalent as even with TRVs the gas is heating more of the house at once.
I've noticed some loss of efficiency and heating takes longer in this -2C cold snap. Outdoor unit needs more frequent defrosting. You can hear it working harder. Indoor unit takes longer to start pumping out warm air.
Will update or post another video when I understand my spreadsheets better.
@@RobFisherUK Thank you for the information👍
You can often lock the air swing in a specific direction.
I’ve got someone coming round next week. Was looking at a ASHP water but requires too much changes to our old gas heating. Do you mind telling me how much you paid so I know ballpark next week?
You're looking at about £1500 per room.
That’s interesting, £1500 per room? Looks like you’ve been overcharged to me.
@@RobFisherUK £1500 per room sounds normal to me. Some brands are cheaper than others, though.
@@sjcsystems £1200-£1800 per room is where all my quotes have been. Given the units themselves range in price from £1000 to £1800, and factoring in installation, that seems reasonably good
@@sjcsystems Looks like you are a cheapskate. Are HVAC contractors and other tradespeople not supposed to make a descent profit? Does your boss pay you too much and complain every payday to you? You can always DIY. Here in the USA that is standard price $1800 x 5 heads = $9,000USD.
Shouldn’t this be wired to its own RCD via the fusebox ?
No need. You need to know what else is on your ring main but this doesn't draw much current. Something like 3kW max, like a kettle.
Is it noisey? The exterior part?
I'm concerned about disturbing my neighbours
Daikin & Fujitsu Heat Pumps have a 'low noise setting' where the outdoor unit fan spins at a slower speed to not disturb the neighbours. The downside is it slightly reduces the heating/cooling capacity of the units.
this is exactly what ill be doing
What was the approx cost of the system?
You're looking at about 1500 per room
NDS ?
That outdoor condenser in front of that wall will fail in hot weather as it will recirculate the air off around the coil leading to overheating and hi temp shut down.
Clearly a difficult job in that sort of house.
how would u stop it from overheating?
Your looking at £5,000 minimum job here give or take including the products.
@5:32 What is that camera looking thingee?
It's a thermal camera that scans the room. It apparently builds a better picture of where hot or cold air is needed and directs the air accordingly.
You can also configure it to blow air either towards people in the room or away from them. This does seem to work very well! Depending on where I sit it will blow warm air at me, so I feel warmer and can set the temperature lower and save some money.
@Rob Fisher very interesting, thanks for the clarification 👍
shame the piping is so ugly! but great none the less
czcams.com/video/mzXRrqQlpa0/video.html
5 days!?! What were they doing... thats no more than a 2 day job for 2 men come on, 3 max if they hit probems everywhere
They were working 8am to 4pm I think. Day 1 was installing two indoor units at the back of the house and routing some interior and exterior trunking. Day 2 was installing rear condenser, hooking it up and starting on the front of the house. Day 3 and 4 was finishing the front of the house: two wall mounts, a floor mount and some complicated routing of pipes. Day 5 was not a full day and was electrical wiring and commissioning. Even setting up the WiFi on 5 units took a while.
One of the guys was just an apprentice, so there was only one guy to do the welding, for example. There was a problem with drilling through soft bricks in one place that took ages and killed a drill. None of it seemed unreasonable at the time.
@RobFisherUK ill give them that then not the longest days now it makes more sense. Also i suppose you'd prefer it's to be a good job than rushed and faulty. Carnt rush good work. 👍
How long have you worked in air conditioning for??
@markdove5906 put plenty in, its easy work compared to the real trades haha, if you'd take 5 days your stealing living....
It looks like your entire house has been butchered, pipes all over the place, trunking all over the place. This video has put me right off considering this as an option
Why do all this faff, when there’s an easier unit you now can do yourself, which would cost a total of £800 if you do it yourself, no need to have massive ugly trunking now thanks to a new unit,
What unit?
Looks ugly on the outside