Yes, Miyamoto DOES Dislike Story
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- čas přidán 30. 03. 2023
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Shigeru Miyamoto recently tried to put an end to the idea that he's against games having stories. He did not convince me.
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This video was edited by the lovely Kane!
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Paper Mario - • Paper Mario (N64)
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What's up dude.
How’d you comment 7 days ago?
Hi past Arlo
@@KiloCreates0_0 Privated the video, probably
7 da-
WTF?!
Mario games are a prime example of a game that really *should* be gameplay first to a big degree, and yet everybody almost universally loved Rosalina's storybook. Just a little bit of story focus can go a long way towards helping players engage with a game emotionally beyond just thinking "hey jumping around is pretty fun."
It's insulting. It's like he still thinks he's making video games for six to eight year olds Only. Actually six year olds like stories anyway, the games are too dumb for even that age group.
What makes his interference in the Galaxy games so aggravating is a the story book was a BACKGROUND thing. I could sympathize somewhat if Miyamoto was just opposed to too many long cutscenes and dialogue exchanges. That works fine or even better for some games.
But Rosalina’s storybook was a side element that you could engage with at your own leisure and didn’t even get in the way of enjoying the main game if you missed it. The fact he disliked that and made sure nothing like it was in SMG2 shows that he is not just indifferent to story but actually dislikes it.
Gamers thinking that gameplay and story can't go along and it's just a one side of the coin thing is very depressing.
Great Cait “Mario games” The 3D games and some sports spinoffs, sure, but the RPGs are a different story.
@@EWWFFIX7753 That's kinda the thing though, the RPGs are such a massively different beast that I'm hard pressed to even calll them "Mario" games so much as RPGs with a Mario skin.
Don't get me wrong, I love the RPGs but you say "Mario", the likes of NEW Super Mario Bros or Galaxy comes to mind a lot sooner than Superstar Saga.
God bless Koizumi for Link’s Awakening, and wanting to give Link a backstory
Link's Awakening is hands down my favorite Zelda game for that mindfuck of an ending alone. Zelda games deserve more of that
@@pupperjackcheese Do you know if the remake from 2019 kept the story in?
@@Ren-0 I dont own a Switch, I only played the original. But I hope so!
He always seems to be involved in my fave Nintendo games.
The strp down in my enjoyment from Galaxy 1 to 2 was immense. I loved how dramatic Galaxy got by the end and looked forward to a continuation. Instead we got a reboot.
he link therefore he am
I didn't know Koizumi was such an unsung hero.
Also, I love spiteful Arlo. He does the thing while still being completely polite.
I feel like everyone who got treated badly by Nintendo has to articulate their frustration in a polite manner or else people are gonna think they're worthy of dismissal.
I just don't know how people expect someone who has every right to be angry to articulate their anger like they're a lying sociopath.
Of course you're hurt, you're gonna call it out as it is... A ripp off. A legally possible but highly unethical business practice.
Arlo has to be polite because he will be extremely opposed by Nintendo.
But you guys don't have to be, you're paying them ..
They haven't given you free stuff for one, and you don't run channels where you have to be sponsored by them in order to make a living.
Call 'em out. You don't owe them anything 😏
@@samf.s.7731 On the one hand, you can get review copies of games for free so you don't have to pay for something you may not like. On the other, you can say whatever you want and get punished for it, even if what you're saying is completely harmless and true.
@@samf.s.7731 Arlo was dropped from Nintendo’s brand ambassador program back in 2020, along with a lot of others. I don’t think he gets free review copies anymore, not from Nintendo at least. Some third-party game companies still give him review copies on occasion though.
How can you be polite while spiteful?
Ask a person from the US south. "Oh bless your heart".
I would literally kill to watch a rant video about Koizumi. That man is effectively the lifeblood of the company
Damn right
Thank you magic ice cube man.
Yep
Maybe he could bother the Zelda team with the story, lord knows totk and botw didn’t deliver, fuji made ONE good story with SS and he can’t seem to replicate the same quality.
@@pubertdefrog What about TP, WW, MM and OoT?
He HATES books. He really is a gamer
insane game designer HATES books and THREATENS those who enjoy stories
my hero o7
He probably hates showering as well
@@jayandjlps8022 He's not a Melee fanboy
@@EnderrBoi This is a Jerma comment.
Story: “You despise me, don’t you?”
Miyamoto: “If I gave you any thought I probably would.”
That's too bad, because the story is the best part in my opinion. A good story makes almost any game so much more fun. And as a wise man once said, "If it's not fun, why bother."
@@DanGamingFan2846 Even games like Shovel Knight and it's other campaigns were solid from a gameplay perspective, but the game had fun with itself and the story and it frames the whole thing together nicely and characters have character. If you remove all the character and framing from the game, you'd have just another generic platformer, it might even be a good one, but it wouldn't be special.
Imagine if Star Fox didn't have any characters saying anything at all. Would any one remember it other than an oddity of the time?
@@DanGamingFan2846 gameplay is king
@@kotzer71 and so is story, so why not have both?
@Will Br gamer story is not king in this medium gameplay should always come first a good story is just a bonus
A good story without gameplay is just a movie a gameplay without any story is still a game
Honestly, thank you for being petty because it makes me realize how incredible Koizumi's contributions to the company have been
To any Miyamoto defenders watching this, it’s important to remember that two different things can be true. Miyamoto had a big hand in revolutionizing games, and we owe a ton to him. At the same time, he actively holds artistic growth back in Nintendo games with his story allergy.
Could not agree more. Miyamoto was one of the heroes of video games but he actively hurts Nintendo now because of his stubbornness and cultist belief in his gameplay philosophy.
Links crossbow game anyone?
Yeah, and we should agree becase truth is you have to be an an ethincentic american teenager to knpw what is right.
HE DOESN'T.
The f*** you people think one person decides everything in the company? Despite the fact that Miyamoto had to essentially rebel against the higher ups with Yoshi's Island?
By the way, what makes that you then? Miyamoto haters?
The problem with the Paper Mario Survey is that it only asked
"What's your most important feature?"
Of course, I said Gameplay, as terrible gameplay won't be saved by a good story. BUT, it failed to take into account that one might find gameplay most important, and story very high on the list.
It's like asking what's more important in Smash. Gameplay or characters? I'd say gameplay, which is why I eventually stopped playing Brawl. But I'm still not gonna buy a Smash game that lacks most of my favorite characters, which is why I completely skipped Smash 4.
And then none of that matters anyway if the game is a broken mess to the point that it's just frustrating to play, which is why I never would've played Rivals of Aether without mods. In the end, I stick with Rivals of Aether because unlike modern devs, modders will actually give me what I want. Point is you can't just focus on one or two things & expect to get a good game out of it.
@D YellowMadness I can agree. For Smash, I highly value mechanics, so I play Project M. Sure, I'd love to play characters like Terry, but I got PMEX Remix for that.
Still, games are multifaceted, and one thing I realized while working on Project M is that while I wanted a good competitive game, I also learned that it was important to add more to the package for it to feel more complete.
Correct me if i am wrong but the survey also only asked if you cared about the story of the game or not, right?
Thats definitely not the same as asking if someone cares about stories IN GENERAL.
@walaceandrade4046 Yeah, but as Chuggaaconroy mentioned in his Sticking It to Sticker Star videos, the main problem with the survey was it didn't require participants to say if they played the game or not. Most unfortunately didn't and their ignorance colored the results.
"terrible gameplay won't be saved by a good story"
...he said, as though Nier had never existed.
Koizumi really deserves more credit. He's brilliant!
He definitely gets too much hate.
@@DanGamingFan2846Too much hate? I've seen absolutely nothing but love for Koizumi. It's just that a lot of people don't know who he is
Koizumi should get the renown that Miyamoto does and vice versa
@@fakename6498 Honestly Miyamoto could vanish for all I care, wish Koizumi replaced him.
@@Vaquix000 Alright I wouldn't go _that_ far
Miyamoto: “It’s not that I hate stories, I just don’t care that much about…”
Basically this video: “CARE, DAMN IT!!!”
I mean if the guy really had to sneak the story in there and couldn't just go "you work on the gameplay I'll work on the story and let's get this game out there" then that sounds bad.
as he should
@@MP_Guz and you have an entire lifetime worth of experience developing videos games right?
@@internalpain2046 I have a better understanding of storytelling than he does that's for sure lol
@@bland9876 What did I just read?
Gameplay makes a game Enjoyable. Story makes a game Memorable. When a game has both, it becomes unforgettable.
For me, is definetly Twilight Princess. I will thank forever Miyamoto for Midna.
I second this
Nicely put, that’s a keeper! Is that your own thought or are you quoting someone else?
My favorite game ever is Mega Man 9. I have no idea what the story is. I don't play games for story. The only game stories I remember are Bioshock and The Last of Us.
Story also makes me engaged, and wanting to keep playing the game because I want to see how it plays out.
I would have played Sticker Star with that shitty gameplay if the story was as fun as ttyd and Super Paper Mario.
I mean, look at Kirby. There's usually very little story, leaving it all crammed in at the end, or in pause menu stuff, but when it gets rolling HOO BOY!! I am never gonna forget Forgotten Land's climax, and Susie and Haltmann are some of my favorite characters in the series, starring in my favorite Kirby game.
A game doesn't need to be story heavy to be memorable, but just the right amount makes it magical.
Magolor's story and even the Kirby Crystal Shard story is amazing!
Kirby games take you on an ADVENTURE thanks to their narratives and world-building, and it’s one of the many reasons it will be my preferred platformer series compared to Mario.
@@Hauntaku it also helps Kirby as dumb as it sounds has a personality. He is kind, likes to eat, have fun, make friends, etc. Super simple but he is a person. Mario has literally nothing on the mainline games other than save X. I really wish they give him a little more.
@@Plasmacat1 which is why I’m really excited for the Mario movie because he has to have an actual personality to be a compelling character
I basically agree with all of this. There need not be a dichotomy of Story vs Gameplay, because unless you are making a basic ass arcade game, even just a little story to grab onto is important. It doesn't have to be Shakespeare! It can be as basic as you like. All I'm asking for is just SOMETHING to grab onto. Look at my two favorite franchises, Mega Man and Castlevania. Mega Man games, specifically the Classic series, don't typically have much story. They do, however, have just enough to have some character exploration and depth. Castlevania was largely story agnostic for a while, but creators took established lore and expanded upon it, giving one of the more heartbreaking origin stories of one of the most iconic weapons in video game history. These examples are not high art, but they give weight and importance to their specific canons, giving validation to those paying attention to the flavor text and world building.
To bring it to Kirby, even without digging into deep Holy lore, Kirby is largely gameplay, but with enough story so that you can grab onto its world and characters, and care when they fall to the forces of darkness or stand stalwart against them. Even laugh at how many times our hero has stumbled face first into apocalyptic danger with a smile to his friends and determination to his enemies. Hell, using the Link's awakening example, could you fathom in a post Link to the Past world, a LoZ game WITHOUT a story foundation? How many beloved characters, how much emotional weight would be just LOST?
This made me really like Koizumi much more. He was the reason for some really interesting games that have really stood the test of time. Miyamoto does have a great legacy, but he also has a track record of being petty, spiteful and stubborn as a mule. Koizumi with more control would be an interesting twist.
I had no idea he was the one who put the story into Link's Awakening. Super Mario Galaxy 2 was lesser than Super Mario Galaxy in many ways as well, and story was definitely one of them. I like Koizumi a lot now.
He should be the next one to take over Nintendo.
I choose Mario 64 over Mario Odyssey, but it's not about who of Miyamoto or Koizumi is right.
They are complementary, focusing too much on the story and you have a bad game, but story can add flavour.
@@mjc0961 It’s pretty much the only way Galaxy 1 can be considered better, I think Galaxy 2 is overall better, more power-Ups and dinner level design. The empty ass hub world from Galaxy can’t really be counted as something important imho
If anyone in the industry deserves to be stubborn though, its Miyamoto.
But shelving creativity in any capacity is an interesting approach to game design
Miyamoto is like your successful boomer dad/grandpa in the family who expects things to just work the same as when he did it, and is completely oblivious to all the cultural and technological changes over the years and is just super resistant to any change and everyone else just sort of sighs and lets him do his thing because they either respect him too much or are too afraid of getting an earful of "THIS IS HOW WE DID IT BACK IN MY DAY, AND IT WORKED"
Yeah I kinda had that "kay boomer" like go throughy head when watching Arlo quote him 😂
I find it funny how much western Boomers are hated by Western Millennials and Zers when Millennials and Zers are probably going to be just as hated by future generations not even alive yet. Such a contrast to East Asia where we honor and respect our ancestors. Even if we disagree with them
@@samf.s.7731 "Better to be a Boomer than be in a generation of whiners 😂" a common rebuttal I hear from boomers to the "ok boomer" remark. And there is truth to that. Boomers are, for the most part, a generation of winners.
Except that's not true at all.
@@HoshizakiYoshimasaBecause they were effectively playing the game on easy mode. Their generation could graduate college debt free just by working on weekends.
More concerning than Miyamoto shutting down stories in games (for me at least) is the possibility that they've shut down actual games because they assumed people wouldn't like them. We've recently been hearing that Nintendo have been taken by surprise at the success of Metroid Prime Remastered; what if those shutdown Retro games actually might have been beloved by the community but Nintendo cancelled them because they couldn't see/understand the potential? 😢
That has to be a joke, right? Like, that happens all the time and isn't even a media-only thing.
Retro Studios isn't all that far off from dying considering the massive uncertainty about Metroid Prime 4.
Mother 3 not being localized I feel shows Nintendo not wanting deep stories in most of their games.
Retro's issues probably had more to do with the relatively low performance of Metroid Prime games compared to their critical praise.
@@Good100 Your right on that matter considering their inability to replicate The success of the first Metroid Prime game.
Remember that 1 chapter from Paper Mario TTYD where Mario is on a train and uncovering mysteries for basically the whole thing, with no gameplay and mostly just storytelling? That was such a fun chapter!
It's terrible for repeat playthroughs though, imo.
It goes from one of the most memorable chapters in the game, to a pretty boring one.
Wish there were ways to mix up the order of events in repeated playthroughs. Or skip to the end if you know something specific revealed later in the chapter.
@@DaNintendude Yeah, I agree. It is bad for repeat playthroughs. But I don't replay the game enough to where it bothers me. I mean, I could read a good story again if I enjoyed it enough the first time. Plus, it's a very memorable chapter with some very memorable characters! I will certainly take that over anything from these more recent games.
I do like the idea of having multiple routes in a Paper Mario story. I'd love to see that in a Paper Mario chapter one day! Or... I would say that if the series still stuck to its roots to this day.
Boggly Woods is my life
I honestly never cared much for that part of Chapter 6... it's tedious on repeat playthroughs and I hate Riverside Station. I thought the Sunset Express from Color Splash was way more fun.
@@DaNintendude The over the top sound every time the penguin says something wildly unfunny sure didn't help. I didn't mind the first time but on repeat playthroughs, that really took a hammer to my already dwindling patience.
Miyamoto makes it sound like story and gameplay are two different 'ways' of doing about making a game, instead of them both being two different pieces that work together to create a satisfying experience. The gameplay and the story should feed into each other in meaningful ways. One shouldn't just be a slave to the other.
You said it! I 100% agree with this.
The game doesn't have to be a greek epic or anything, but framing the game and giving the characters and the world some personality go along way towards the enjoyment of a game, even if you mostly skip it on repeat playthroughs, it's already cemented it's flavour in the audience's mind.
Yep, 3D world is a strong example…that games gives you sooo little context to push things along, just ‘save the fairies’ and get on with it.
@@TheJadeFist I mean just take Kirby for example... there's a little bit of story at the start to get you going, everything afterwards is entirely gameplay, and then at the end they drop a bombshell of story and lore that gets you hyped. And a lot of the lore and story is also completely hidden in pause screens and side stories, its entirely optional and doesn't take away from the gameplay at all.
Because that's how it is. As a 10 years expierienced game designer I can tell you. You either approach the game from narrative perspective and then you try to slap Together a gameplay scenario that will tell your story. Or you approach it from gameplay first perspective and then story will have to be adjusted to highlight gameplay aspects. Its like in a dance. One has to lead.
A funny thing about the whole "Surveys said Paper Mario players don't like story" thing, and this was brought up by Chuggaaconroy in his "Sticks it to Sticker Star" series
Not only does it seem like there has _never_ been any other case of a game or series being impacted and basically completely -butchered- reshaped by the surveys, but also the surveys had a reward incentive with Club Nintendo, so it's very likely that the majority of folks who actually did the surveys just quickly went through them without any thought just to get whatever rewards they wanted
And the surveys were basically multiple choice questions with a scale of 1 to 7, 1 being "it was bad" and 7 being "it was good", and of course 1 was up top so basically everyone who skimmed through effectively just said the game was absolutely terrible on all accounts
To put it short, the surveys were actually horribly unreliable, and the only reason anyone would ever try to use them to enforce a decision is if there was an agenda they wanted to push anyway and just needed an excuse
As opposed to the agenda you're pushing?
I guess random comments on the internet and whiny CZcamsrs are more reliable.
@@NuiYabukonah.
As opposed to the agenda LITERALLY EVERYONE WANTS 😂😂
It doesn’t take much to see WHY people like what they like
This is not just another cynical CZcamsr. This is pure and utter facts. Literally business and profits could tell you instantly that this is the case for practically everyone.
Miyamoto just grew up and worked in a time when it was practically impossible to tell a story with the hardware limitations they had back then. In lieu of a story, game play had to be the top selling point. Unless it was a movie tie-in, then we came up with the stories in our minds. But with the stuff we have now, there is no reason why we can't have both awesome story and action.
Yes but there have been some moments where story can interfere with gameplay.
For example in Batman Arkham Asylum, the final boss is Joker being buff, fans hated that boss fight. However the reason for Joker injected himself with Titan formula, in Arkham City the formula is killing Joker. Eventually Joker dies because of it, resulting in of the most shocking endings in gaming history, but that excuse Titian Joker from Arkham Asylum for not being a good boss fight?????
It's clear that Miyamoto doesn't want to take risks
@@orangeslash1667 I've heard games like Nintendo's own Metroid Fusion and Grand Theft Auto 4 by Rockstar North have fallen into that category as well. Fusion is still my personal favorite game when it comes to the Metroid series, and personally speaking, I think the story does help, and it also makes Samus an interesting character, something the games that came before it either just couldn't, or didn't do. I know some will say there's environmental storytelling, but I think that kind of storytelling really hurt Metroid Prime, the first one anyway. It gave me no reason to care about what was going on with Tallon IV. The story was just, "Meta Ridley escaped to Tallon IV, go after him". As amazing as the game looked, the game needed more than that to make it even better, and it didn't.
As for GTA 4, it's gotten plenty of flak as it is, but the story that game is not only well written, but a good amount of the characters are as well. The gameplay may not appeal to everyone, I think it just takes getting used to. Also, the two DLC expansions that came out after the main game, "The Lost and Damned" and "The Ballad of Gay Tony" had their own stories intertwining with certain events from the main game, since they all take place within the same timeframe. Felt kind of like playing the first Half Life, and then playing Opposing Force and Blue Shift afterwards (I know there's also Decay as another expansion to HL1), where you were seeing the same story through different perspectives. If the story was not there for GTA 4, and you were just playing as some lowly thug causing gang wars, and havoc everywhere you go like GTA 3, the game itself would get boring and tedious very quickly.
@@AkiraStrix94 Say what you will about Paper Mario, but Starfox has an excuse. Starfox Zero was released just before the end of the Wii U, changing the story just to appeal to fans would have caused even more delays. Remember Miyamoto doesn't rush games from a gamplay standpoint. He even admitted that Super Mario World was rushed despite the game's being save Peach.
@@orangeslash1667 Firstly, I didn't say anything relating to Paper Mario. Secondly, Star Fox Zero's story is almost exactly the same as Star Fox 64's.
No, seriously, it really is just Star Fox 64 all over again in terms of its story, just like how Dragon Ball Z Kai was just Dragon Ball Z all over again, but without the filler. Sounds good on paper, but not in practice. I at least know the difference between a game being awful, and a game not being what fans wanted, Zero somehow managed to be both of those things. Not a good combo, if you ask me.
Giving fans what they want in a game like that isn't a bad thing, but when you just repeat the same story, assuming no one's going to care, that's a major step backwards. If another Star Fox game gets made, it better not just be the same story, with Andross being the villain again, just move the damn story forward.
@@AkiraStrix94 like I said, before, changing the story of Starfox, would have caused more delays that is why Miyamoto doesn’t change the story at all. Otherwise it would’ve released in 2017, when the switch was already set to release.
Games usually release at the very end of a console’s lifecycle usually don’t sell well. Conkers bad fur day, and Panzer Dragon saga are very big examples of this.
Let me tell you, ever since Koizumi came on the scene as a main figure behind the Switch, I have wished we saw more of him! Mans reminds me of the skit days from Reggie and Iwata. Just seems to have a plan that resonates and seems to be down to do fun things for directs and such. Learning that he is a driving force behind the stories on many of my favorite games is a surprise, but a welcome one to be sure!
Maybe you should research about koizumi and other developers instead of thinking a company makes everything
@@ausgod538 Kind of unnecessarily rude
He's also nice to look at. 😊
Koizumi is a genius. Look up the man's track record. HD Rumble and the Switch design is just his most recent inventions. He also created Z targeting in Ocarina of Time.
@@MikeMohamedTo be fair Iwata had a big hand in the Switch design and HD rumble is just haptic feedback with a fancy name. Both Sony and Nintendo use it in their 9th gen controllers Koizumi didn't invent that, but Koizumi is great. Miyamoto should just focus on movies and let him fully take the creative reigns.
I find Miyamoto such an interesting figure. On the one hand, he is absolutely one of the smartest game designers in history. On the other hand, he has such odd and awkward ideas about what the player actually values, and that usually gets in the way of Nintendo creating a larger variety of games. F-Zero being shot down repeatedly is a great example. A new and expansive narrative would do a sequel wonders. New graphical fidelity, track complexity, online multiplayer, a fully functional track maker, immensely intense physics etc, would do WONDERS to make a new title in the series a knock out hit. But because Japanese sales of GX were lower than expected and he has no new ideas on how to add something radical to the game, the game doesn’t get made, even if another team pitches it to him.
because f-zero is not a fucking fun game. just another shovelware racing game. glad its dead.
It’s weird, because it’s like half of the time he’s a genius when it comes to game design, but in the same breath is absolutely awful at it.
He's very much part of the old-school Nintendo as a toy company mindset.
This guy’s a complete and utter enigma sometimes; I swear.
And a bit of a grump.
@@BradfortBottlenose Part of it is his experience as an actual lead designer ended with Mario 64. And his experience made him grumpy.
He was planning on making Mario more "mature", and then he basically never got to fully control a Mario game ever again
I do think TTYD’s story helps a young kid who’s never played an RPG before be motivated to learn, but it’s also good enough for a seasoned RPG vet to want to find the fastest way to blast through it.
RPGs having a good story should be a staple of the genre. It's a genre that requires a lot of reading via dialogue, battle commands, narrations, menus ect. It makes RPGs special because of how big and beefy they are. It can fill a game with emotion full of twists and turns. It can help you care about the characters, both the heroes and the villains, even the NPCs!
@@macuser7048 So Origami King?
@@NuiYabuko Origami King could have been so much more than colored pencils and scissor bosses
It doesn't even need to be story. But incredible dialogue and quirky, interesting characters that pulled a fresh twist on standard Mario NPCs and enemies was the strength of all three Mario RPG series (RPG, Paper, M&L) and now they're shells of their former selves because the creativity has been snuffed out of them. Hopefully the Super Mario RPG remake sells well enough in comparison that Nintendo sees that's what people want from these games.
I guess that’s like saying a PG-13 movie helped kids grow up
I always thought it was weird they Mario Galaxy 2 essentially has the l same story as the first one. Now I realize this is exactly the type of sequel Miyamoto wants.
And that why galaxy 2 is trash
Awful plot
Bland levels
Reused stars
Reused levels
Galaxies are too short to go through
Galaxy 2 started out not as a sequel but as a level pack like Lost Levels and Super Luigi U.
@@adriannissen and it's only works as that to be fair
But it completely fails at a sequel
Even Nintendo knows that that why it wasn't in all Stars
@@sethisevilone02 I love stories and lore in video games, including Mario, but I'd still say Galaxy 2 is better than Galaxy 1. They're both fun, but the best levels from G1 don't hold a candle to the ones in G2. The post game is also better imo. Both are lackluster outside of the bonus level at the very end, but at least G2 had you do something different and didn't make you complete the entire game twice with no changes.
@@kiwikarp9509 hard disagree the green star challenges in galaxy 2 were lazy
They just slapped them in random places
Also galaxy 2 levels are either
1 really cool but we don't get enough to do there aka chompworks puzzle plank slipsand
2 very linier generic levels
Galaxy 2 doesn't feel like we're in space on these planets it feels like generic levels with a space Skybox
"I just don't think it needs a story" is a WILD thing to say about a game series that started out being called (in Japanese) "Mario Story" [Paper Mario 1]
I LOVE the past two Arlo videos being especially petty. I'm all for positivity but a good reality check with a fuzzy blue monster is very cathartic somehow
It’s because he’s CRAZY good at writing and structuring an argument. It’s compelling! 😅
i love it either way both styles are fun
I don't see how this is petty. Miyamoto is an idiot.
YES. I love both sides of Arlo
Nintendo fans have a terrible habit of silencing all criticism as "toxicity". Arlo being one of the few critical voices that doesn't get silenced is a healthy thing.
Fire emblem engage is probably the best example of how really fun gameplay experience can be ruined by a horrible to non existent story. Every character was surface level anime tropes with no real substance to them besides maybe 2 characters and the plot was so easily predictable that I just told myself I spent 50 dollars on it so I have to finish it.
That’s not fair
Did you know...
Good gameplay and good story can coexist? Like, they're not exclusive concepts? You can very much have both?
Kirby Planet Robobot is a perfect example, the Story of a megacorporation who invades and mecanizes entire planets is told through the changues in how the enemys looks and how they attack you.
Portal 2 is also a great example. If you stripped away the story, the gameplay wouldn’t have to change at all.
@@fernandovelazquez4440Woo! Planet Robobot, PEAK Kirby for so many reasons! (imho)
@@Jadondigital Yes but there have been some moments where story can interfere with gameplay.
For example in Batman Arkham Asylum, the final boss is Joker being buff, fans hated that boss fight. However the reason for Joker injected himself with Titan formula, in Arkham City the formula is killing Joker. Eventually Joker dies because of it, resulting in of the most shocking endings in gaming history, but that excuse Titian Joker from Arkham Asylum for not being a good boss fight?????
It's clear that Miyamoto doesn't want to take risks
I know this sounds lame, but as a kid, I was obsessed with Super Paper Mario's subversive story and was intrigued by its mysteries. I even watched several blind playthroughs to see different reactions to the story. Of course, now I am older and know that the story isn't as grand as other things I've seen by now for sure. It was my first Paper Mario game and one of my first games in general and it blew my mind away! I still think about the game's story to this day on occasion.
That's not lame. The game is the deepest Mario story we have gotten and is a great starting point for gaining an appreciation of deeper stories.
whatever thought told you that it sounded lame, get rid of it. that was evil jiminy cricket trying to get you to subvert good tastes in media.
Thats not lame at all. That’s pretty cool actually
That's no where near lame, it's my first and favorite Paper Mario as well! Doubt Mario will ever get that dark again sadly.
It's far from the greatest in any video game (most JRPGs provide steep competition in that regard), but it is _easily_ the best story in a _Mario_ game.
We probably already know this but I think the main distinction is that Miyamoto thinks the main purpose of a game is to be as fun as possible, while we look at games as more of an art and a form of expression. Many of us want games to connect with us at a deeper level than just surface level fun.
So does he, that was the whole point of the original legend of zelda, to create a sense of wonder and immersion. You have no idea what you're talking about
@@rareosts5752 true lol
I mean, he is also missing that story IS part of what makes games fun.
Adventure IS fun because of WHY you adventure and WHAT you do in the adventure
Do we, though? I mean I do, but it often looks to me like gamers in general would rather just screw around in a gameplay sandbox and ignore any story, if there is one.
@@rareosts5752 And even in the OG Zelda there was a degree of story. Sure, it was minimalistic and could be skipped with ease, but it was still there and gave the explorative gameplay a frame, a context, a narrative pull. The overarching mystery of the game was the presence of Ganon (or "Gannon"); reminder his appearance wasn't known until you played through the game at the time, so that was compelling.
Heck, even getting the sword is a marriage of narration and gameplay. "It's Dangerous To Go Alone. Take This" tells you that you're in a hostile place but there will be people in caves helping you, which is true in gameplay.
Never knew Koizumi was THAT much of a legend. The balls to say such things about Zelda story and his attitude towards Miyamoto (12:25), especially in a japanese company.
Zelda and Metroid should lean a bit heavier in the story-based direction (being Nintendo's more "adult" franchises) while Donkey Kong and Mario should be lighter on the story
They haven't made a new Donkey Kong in years.
@@iamthemouse4483 then maybe it's about time. Both Country returns and Tropical freeze were well received, and there haven't been a Donkey Kong in 3D yet, wich might be really cool and bring some new mechanics
@@wilhelmtheconquerer6214 But Mario and Zelda make all the money, I'm not getting my hopes up for a new DKC any time soon.
@@iamthemouse4483 you're probably right
Stories are for kids and idiots. So especially the more “adult” games should focus even more on game play.
Even if you’re not paying attention to the plot, knowing one is there can make the game feel more exciting.
That's pretty much Elden Ring, there's this intricate GRRM written story behind the whole thing, and you "like just totally not even know it's there" if you're not someone who's looking for a story in a game you're playing 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
That’s actually a very intelligent and deeply insightful comment.
I only start not paying attention when I've decided a games story is really bad, which is the case for a good 90% of Nintendo games.
After deciding the story is bad it's just kinda tedious and sometimes annoying that they keep pushing it.
Alot of games would have been better without any story at all, though I do still think a good story can add alot
I'm a story guy, it's the first thing I look for in any game. I want to know what is going on, and why I'm doing what I'm doing. I want to know about the world I'm in, and why I should care about exploring it. I don't need lore dumps and narrative cutscenes ALL the time, but I need SOMETHING to keep me going, even if it's just a little bit once in a while. If I get the sense that the game developers don't care about the story and have made the game under the assumption that the player doesn't care either, I very quickly check out and play something else. It feels like a cheap garbage game.
This exactly is why I love Yoko Taro. If you play one of his games you know there a shit ton of lore and background information that you can get invested in, but at the same time he’ll only give you what you need in order to get you from point A to point B and that’s it. Like, you don’t need to know there are actual living Dragons in the American continent when fighting the machines in NieR Automata but it’s nice to know that the world of NieR goes beyond what is shown on screen and MORE. You get emotional and invested in his stories and then there’s also this other thing that will blow your mind as well. This alone exactly why I get invested so much into the world of NieR and why I love stories in games so much
To add my own 2 cents: I don't know if I agree with Miyamoto's "story approach vs gameplay approach" as a way to design games. Obviously he deserves credit for all he's done in the industry, but games are in a much different place now, and have been for a while.
Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw talks a lot in his Zero Punctuation series about his desire to see video games take the unique strengths of their medium and distance themselves from movies or "cinematic" experiences. He speaks about how gameplay should inform story, and that they should serve one another instead of being two separate things mashed together.
I'll cite his ZP on Hades for the best example of this. He praises Supergiant for merging the game's roguelike gameplay loop with the visual-novel style story and character development, and how the repetition and slog of multiple deaths from the player are meant to illustrate Zagreus' struggles to break out of the underworld and find his mother in the story.
Ideally, imo, game designers shouldn't be picking gameplay OR story to focus on; they're not mutually exclusive or on opposite sides of a spectrum. They can start design with one of them in mind, of course, but I personally believe gameplay and story should be interwoven because that's something video games are uniquely able to do. If anything, this interview just seems like MORE confirmation Miyamoto dislikes story, because he's made this dichotomy where he can excuse not focusing on story through the implication that games with story focus focus less on gameplay, which is incredibly disingenuous from my perspective. But hey, what do I know? I didn't make Mario.
Miyamoto's statement generally made sense to me but it is definitely best to treat gameplay and story as interwoven things rather than separate. I think one of the problems is that you have people that work on games separated into different focuses and not enough consideration for how everything fits together.
If anything, it now CONFIRMS WHY is that the case, because he genuinely thinks putting story ruins the gameplay. Maybe it was the case on the 80's and early 90's, but nowadays computers have evolved to do both and build between eachother; in short, a very outdated mentality.
I feel like games like Last of Us and GoW 2018 (specifically 2018, Ragnarok was worse with it) can't be discounted too quickly either. In TLOU 1 Ellie became more helpful and deadly over time as she got hardened and skilled. When she was distracted or upset she began to disrupt the flow of the game as Joel would have to prod her a few times to get her to do what she needed to do. The constant scrabble for health and ammo when there's little to be had also made the world feel hostile and the entire journey more personally harrowing in a way the TLOU TV show cannot possibly capture. Really, watching the TV show made it clear what the value of a good "cinematic" game can be. Same goes for GoW 2018 with Atreus' growth and his aggression changing depending on where in the game you are.
Ragnarok seemed to care less about this as it's almost completely straightforward and didn't take advantage of using gameplay to tell its story as much. And I think it's the worse game of the three for it.
Great comment. Exactly my thoughts.
This is an important idea, however there are many popular games that simply tell the story to the player without letting the gameplay inform or reinforce narrative ideas and themes.
That’s the best part of games, imo: the story can be informed by the player experience. Making players watch cutscenes where something happens to the player/character they would otherwise control is often a cowardly choice and often makes the game actively worse.
Majora's mask is the best representation of how story guided gameplay, it would never have been what it was without the story. And in botw, althogh gameplay was extraordinary, I, like many others, couldn't help but feel that the story was lacking, I just wanted to know more, be part of the story itself, rather than just have a series of jumbled flashbacks.
Exactly
I think both gameplay and story are equally important. If a game has little story, but the gameplay is a lot of fun, then the game is worth playing. If the opposite is the case, then the story has to be very engaging for me to continue forward with it. However, a game that manages to balance a good story with good gameplay is an elite in my book. A good example is the Arkham games. That franchise managed to strike a balance in good storytelling and gameplay.
Isn't a known story that the only reason that Rosalina's book existing on Super Maro Galaxy was because Koizumi managed to pass by Miyamoto's eyes without making him notice?
Yes, and many times that deeper characterization appeared in a Nintendo game, like in Majora's Mask and Wind Waker, were because Miyamoto wasn't heavily involved.
We know in Wind waker that he actively kept sticking his nose in saying that it wasn't too late to turn the game into a very traditional Zelda game, and so much love to those devs, they stuck to it.
I do not think as long as Miyamoto is alive that we will see another game with toon link, or any game like that or Majora's Mask, where you feel actual emotion about the characters.
I love Ocarina of Time, but I do not cry at the end the way I do with Wind Waker.
@@WasatchWind Wind Waker is your example of deeper characterization in a Nintendo game? What about Twilight Princess or BotW, then? Those games all featured much more robust and three-dimensional characterization than WW--was Miyamoto also hardly involved there?
@@BenjaminAnderson21 By that Time Miyamoto had little influence on Zelda
@@BenjaminAnderson21 ok but It doesn’t really matter. What if he hasn’t played those games?
Because he wasn't helping with the active development of the game? The game was already behind schedule so of course Miyamoto would be annoyed by that.
“Why don’t you like stories?”
“BECAUSE STORIES KILLED MY GRANDMA, OKAY?”
my uncle broke his neck playing bravely default 2 once
how did singing kill your grandma?
what game was she playing?
Miyamoto (probably): "At a young age... my mother was trampled by a herd of out of control stories..."
@@epicgamner1139 I.
I can't tell if you're joking because that's so specific.
@@UltimaKeyMaster lol nah watch the clip its an epic reference
Personally, I've always felt that the games industry and fans tend to give Miyamoto way too much credit than he actually deserves. I'm not saying that the man doesn't deserve his position, or the games he works aren't don't turn out great, but at the same time, there was always something about him that seems 'off' to me. And I feel like it's due to the way interviews frame him, they seem to always take what he says and spin it in a positive light. The most famous one I can think of is the "I don't wanna hire people who play games" Interview from Breath of the wild.
Everyone I spoke to made it sound like he was preaching a gospel and to an extent, I got what he meant, but at the same time, a man who goes fishing or someone who goes hang gliding won't be able to transfer that experience into something that would be fun for everyone to play and the recent stream of popular indie games, made by gamers show that a lot of gamers do know how to make good games for those kinds of people.
The point I'm attempting to swing round to, is I think the issue is that Miyamoto is a very controlling and opinionated person, he has a very specific idea on how things should work and should be done. And he lets a lot of that colour views on things. Like you said, Majora's mask is one of the most popular Legend of Zelda games, to the point it's debated if it is the best, along with classic Zelda and OOT. And despite it's overwhelming success, Miyamoto was quoted as saying he's never let Yoshiaki Koizumi do anything like that again.
And just something else to note about Yoshiaki Koizumi he hasn't, if you got to his Wikipedia page, he hasn't been allowed to do anything story related or directorial since 2007. Since 2008 to 2021 he's only been a Producer or Supervisor.
And the last story-related game he worked on was Super Mario Galaxy, where he snuck the storybook scene in and that, honestly, seems a little fishy to me.
And what are you doing exactly? Misrepresenting what he said, making things up about him, claiming Koizumi's PROMOTION to producer is bad. How you can take the Miyamoto quote as something bad is beyond me. Imagine wanting people to have more interests than playing games all day. Like, are you just some entitled self-righteousness brat or something?
That's because it IS fishy. Koizumi presented it to Miyamoto and he approved of it. I highly doubt something like this you could sneak past the literal creator of the series.
Yoshiaki Koizumi is one of two producers of Super Mario Odyssey, my favorite game of all time. Thank you, Koizumi.
Well maybe story dislikes miyamoto
"The creative writing industry killed my father!"
Miyamoto is an old school game designer, he helped shape what the games industry became especially after the crash (in the west). But as influential as he is I get the impression he's set in his ways as to what games can be (from his experience in the arcade era where story was limited), and maybe doesn't appreciate how games have evolved in the subsequent decades into a full-on art form where story can be as important as mechanics.
And he seems to think that the slightest bit of story is a terrible distraction - that if we give a character a back story, or introduce new main characters, it will completely derail the gameplay, which just feels so backwards to me.
I get the feeling that if you were to ask Miyamoto "Are videogames an artform?", he'd respond with at least some variation of "no."
@@magetsalive5162 I agree, he'd probably speak highly of them and spin something about offering an experience art cannot, but based on the way he develops and explains himself, I think he very much sees video games as just "more advanced toys".
@@magetsalive5162 It makes me really sad. Walt Disney was quite adamant from the beginning that animation could an amazing means of making art and entertainment, despite perception from some then, and since, that it is childish.
The fact that one of the people most responsible for bringing video games into a place that narrative could exist greatly dislikes narrative makes me extremely sad.
I think it is misleading to say that no story is "old school" before Nintendo saved the video game industry, many game makers wanted to have stories but the technology was so weak and they neglected the actual gameplay that games were super boring or outright infuriating to play.
This video made me appreciate RPGs more. Gameplay is important, but having motivation that works towards the gameplay is always better.
I'm the complete opposite. I care about gameplay. If I wanted a good story I'd watch a movie or read a book.
I hate a lot of triple A games that have good plots and voice acting but the gameplay is super scripted and easy and doesn't allow any challenge, depth, creativity or options and the story is only really conveyed through cutscenes. Good gameplay to me = amount of interesting decisions per second(this varies depending on the type of game) Also slide through wall transitions to hide loading screens and scripted walking gameplay where they slow you down to listen to someone talk can go die. Metal Gear is amazing because even if the cutscenes are long they've always been well directed and the story is actually interesting and the gameplay can be both challenging and has a lot of variation and options. Metal Gear fully commits to it's cutscenes and story well still being amazing mechanically.
@@Captain_NeckbeardAnd also think lowly of certain game developers too
Honestly one of my favourite videos from Arlo.
Very informative if anything with the old interviews.
Nothing informative about the video.
I give Miyamoto credit for his good ideas early in Nintendos gaming history, but he has a storied past of interfering for the worse with tons of projects. Rare ware, Mario rpg, starfox, ect.
apparently my wish for pokemon was a reality at some point until miyamoto came, the pokemon available would have just been randomized and unique for everyone and then miyamoto said people wouldn't understand.
Asking goldeneye to not have shooting is not "interfering for the worst" its a funny story that didnt effect anything
Yeah, he may be the head of the company, but that doesn't mean he has to add something to every project.
Plus, how often have we all heard this story?
"I pitched this game idea to Nintendo, but Shigeru Miyamoto hated it and rejected it instantly. Through some miracle, however, I eventually got through to him, and the game turned out to become a huge success/cult classic."
@@verbatim7508 He's got the Steve Jobs obstinance.
The puppet gloves have really been coming off recently, reminds me of the Not My Paper Mario videos and im here for it.
It took me until the end of the video to realize you were speaking metaphorically. I kept staring at his hand to see if the puppet was falling apart or something.
Counterpoint: The Pikmin games are arguably among the more story driven IPs in the Nintendo library (perhaps even the most story driven non-role playing franchise) and are the games that Miaymoto himself is most directly involved with ATM given his laid back apperoach since the 2010s.
Honestly I think the opposite, almost. Pikmin is a good example of not telling a story. Not to say it has nothing, but the way it goes about it is not like, linear, or comprehensive. The premise is very simple: collect stuff, repair ship. Most of the rest is bits and peices you put together yourself, through gameplay, and there's a lot of stuff that's completely unexplained like what is their homeworld even like? Why are these weird creatures here on earth? It's up to player imagination. (admittedly it's been a long time since I played it though 😅)
@@lillipupzilla environmental storytelling (IE treasures = apocalyptic earth in Pikmin 2) is still storytelling. Also feel like the journal as gameplay tutorial conceit of Pikmin 1’s opening is very experimental way of storytelling you wouldn’t get out of a truly anti-story dev.
Pikmin still have a "lot" of story content. Pikmin 1 (Olimar Voyage Log), Pikmin 2 (Mail system and Piklopedia notes), Pikmin 3 (Voyage Log, Piklopedia Notes, Check In). :)
Pikmin isnt a game where each individual game has a narrative (pikmin 3 has more of one but its really just like that happens and then this happens and then that happens. Its more like a series of events then a story) what pikmin does have is rich characters and world. Olimar is one of the most fleshed out characters that have come from nintendo but he doesnt really follow any kind of story other then crash land, fix ship and go home. I think this ki d of storytelling through world building that happens in the background is what miyamoto prefers while storytelling through a narrative that presents itself in text or in cutscenes is the kind of story he imagines getting in the way of the game
thank you so much I was looking for this comment
There has been literal proof that Miyamoto wasn’t the reason why paper Mario ended up like it is, or that Rosalina’s storybook was “secretly made against his wishes” but whatever man, keep believing your sources that have since then been debunked
Do people really believe the storybook sequences in the game could just be hidden away in something you could easily play through and test? He clearly approved it existing.
Yeah, proof you didn't even try to give. So guess there's none, nice try.
Yeah. And it was never "Rosalina's Storybook was made against Miyamoto's wishes and Slipped under his Radar," It was Koizumi making it in secret, presented to Miyamoto, and Him Approving it. Yeah, there goes the"Miyamoto vetoeing story elements in Videogames" point. I swear with these people.
@@Vaquix000 You could've just asked for sources, but you obviously have some agenda to push.
@@NuiYabuko jesus christ, the first commenter is talking shit like "keep believing your sources", yet doesn' t come up with his own ones. If you criticize ones' sources, you're of course obligated to provide yours.
Nice reversal of guilt from you, instantly accusing someone of pushing some agenda ;)
People have recently been arguing that Miyamoto is not to blame for Paper Mario losing deep stories and original characters. While he may no longer be involved, as an influencial boss, his comments to Tanabe got the ball rolling. *"So when Miyamoto san, the father of Mario, asks us 'could you make a game with only characters from the Mario family?', I think it’s only natural for us to give it our best shot."* This is a fact, no matter how much fans say otherwise.
I think the blame is less on Miyamoto saying that, but moreso that he tuned out after he said that.
An interview with Paper Mario 64's director back in the day, said that they only used mainline Mario characters in the game, and that they wanted to take the simple route for the story. Miyamoto was a producer on the game, but stepped down to a Supervisor role for SPM and Sticker Star.
Miyamoto's suggestions basically parrot what that PM64 interview said. It may not be entirely Tanabe's fault, but it's definitely part of it. Tanabe once said that, the main reason that Toads are the ONLY friendly NPC in the game, is because Toads are the "only friendly species in Mario." Which is just a baffling statement.
Makes me wonder, what would Miyamoto do to them if they didn't take his suggestions on board? Cancel the game? Fire them? How much power does Miyamoto have? Are people working in any kind of fear?
@@DaNintendude I'm still not fond of compromising that "Tanabe could also use other mainline characters like Wario and Piantas!" That still excuses the restriction against original characters/races, a restriction that should never have existed period.
It would be nice if Tanabe could advocate for original characters and fight back against the IP team that never was strict until the moment Miyamoto stepped in, but he agrees with Miyamotos vision of minimalism by his comments.
@@mjc0961 Well, Miyamoto is the most senior employ in Nintendo, and considering the culture in Japan... yeah, I can imagine at least some of them are afraid of Miyamoto.
@@DaNintendude Well, technically they had to make it based around > Super Mario World < which only has Toads and Yoshis being friendly.
Valve is an example of a company which takes that gameplay-based approach, seeing what players like, and then weaves fascinating and thought-provoking stories out of them.
Valve is an example of a company that has cutscenes like everyone else, but they give you free camera control during the cutscenes, so instead of good cinematic camera work to enjoy while you're not playing, you're still not playing but it doesn't look interesting either. And people praise them for this for some reason. If I can't do anything while other characters are talking, then at least make a proper cutscene.
Valve gets way too much credit. Yeah I said it.
There's games like Braid too. I just played that recently and found myself incredibly immersed in something that I couldn't really understand.
@@mjc0961 It works well for a lot of players when they haven't played it too much & are still into the story but it does become a problem on repeat playthroughs. They should really start adding a way to skip the "not scenes" since they still basically are scenes.
I prefer Valve's approach over something like Mario Sunshine where the scenes are boring as piss, noniteractive, *and* unskippable but a middle ground can exist.
@@mjc0961 It's not really about maintaining camera control. It's about maintaining the perspective. A lot of people find it more immersive when a game doesn't cut away from the first person perspective to show you a cinematic cutscene. It helps maintain the feeling that you're actually in the world, despite not having any control at that given moment.
Maybe you don't feel that way, but that's personal preference. It has nothing to do with the caliber of Valve's writing or game design.
@@mjc0961 It's called immersion.
I play the games for their stories. It what get me playing them. I also like playing farming games and build games like dragon quest builders 2 where is has a story line but even after the story there is still stuff to do.
At the end of the day every one has their way to play.
For me I need a story.
Story and gameplay are both incredibly important. The balance between them even more so. You can’t just have one or the other.
Ohhh yeah you can
@@colbyboucher6391 it depends on the type of game. single player games without story tend to become rather boring unless they’re extremely gameplay oriented. I don’t want to go through temples and kill monsters for no reason, y’know? I want to know why I’m doing it.
I could go into detail on games that do this well but I’m working on not mentioning my profile picture every 8 seconds
I really do t care why I just want to play a game without having cutscenes every five seconds I just want to play a game
@@edgytoucan3444 What would a game without a story be if not "extremely gameplay oriented"? What else *could* it be?
@@boxman5381 I wish you guys used real arguments, Ocarina of Time was a story-focused game did the game stop every five seconds? Nope, just like most story driven games.
Albion is a MMO that don't even have story and is growing for a reason some times we just want to see number go up and nothing wrong with that and I say that as a person that loves story-driven games but still play Albion, just say "I find myself enjoying only gameplay focus games because is I prefer them" and just that is enough argument we all have different tastes you don't need to lie why you dislike other games just say is not for you.
Mystery Dungeon has such emotional stories that I wish the main Pokemon games had. They get as good as the best Final Fantasy stories.
Not everyone likes the Mystery Dungeon gameplay, however, I recommended the Pokemon MD EoS to my friend, who played a bit of my started savefile (playthrough n°6 btw). She didnt like the gameplay, not hated it, but it was generally boring and tedious to her. However, because I insisted so much that she plays it, even if for the story, she bought it on Wii U eShop (RIP), and as she played it and got to more of the story, she said she played through the gameplay parts JUST to see the story advance.
I think that, if the game had gotten Miyamoto'd, she wouldnt have gotten a wonderful experience. It's the same thing with Super Paper Mario, not everyone likes the gameplay, but the story is what unites both worlds
@@spiritbaki108 pokemon fans getting upset about boring and tedious gameplay is very ironic (im pokemon fans)
@@ellytrabread They're not comparable though, like at all.
"main Pokémon games had"
Black&White 1&2, Legends Arceus, Scarlet&Violet, Sun&Moon.
That curse is gone now.
Also, Pokémon Platinum is competent (not that Diamond&Pearl garbage), Sinnoh lore is always amazing.
Someone will tell me that is blasphemy, but i don't like the gameplay of Pokémon for anything other than Legends Arceus and Scarlet&Violet.
I always thought he just cared more about gameplay than story because he cared more about how the game actually felt to play and because he’s old school. I didn’t think he disliked story
There are many old school developers who have changed with the times, and there are many old school developers who can't handle more modern game design aspects the way Miyamoto can.
@@BonJoviBeatlesLedZep You better not be hinting at a certain lame thing Ubi is trying to force upon gamers
@@HauntakuWhat's Ubusoft trying to do?
@@corundumkrabble5035 I'd like to know as well.
This Miyamoto anti narrative is growing out of control, out of misunderstandings and misconceptions.
No its not. He literally hates story telling
@@novustalks7525 it’s been debunked time and time again that he did not ban story in Paper Mario and that Koizumi didn’t somehow “snuck” story into Super Mario Galaxy. Koizumi was working on it and then he showed it to Miyamoto, who agreed to include it, then both agreed that it wasn’t important to expand on the story in the sequel, just to name some of the “facts” that the anti Miyamoto people usually mention.
@@superkoopamocha Read the quotes
@@superkoopamocha First off, "anti miyamoto people"? No one, no matter how great, are exempt from criticism. People critiquing miyamoto don't hate the guy, they simply point out what they consider to be flaws of that person.
Second, got some sources?
@@eropandasennin13 Great, because none of them are criticisms, just some complete made up BS.
Nintendo Power interview, 2008.
This is why it’s good to have your Miyamoto’s and Koizumi’s in a gaming company - ala Nintendo. You don’t want yes men that greenlight everything, but you also need people to bend the rules and change the norm sometimes.
Oh Arlo, bringing my longing for the true sequel to the Paper Mario Thousand Year door back alive again....
Closest you can get is Bug Fables gameplaywise. Storytellingwise, we already got that in Super Paper Mario
Paper Luigi: The Marvelous Compass is a real video game
@@brolytriplethreat Born of Bread seems like it's coming along good as well.
@@ShadowWolfRising what
@@brolytriplethreat it's a video game probably similar to paper Mario and bug fables
Miyamoto, Ron Swanson of Nintendo
"Does obtaining the Master Sword actually represent the moment in a kids life, where it needs to choose wether it wants to be an adult, or remain a careless child?" "Nah, its just a ***** sword!"
I mean, a good story doesn't necessarily mean use of symbolism, it just means there needs to be characters and a reason why things are happening.
Analyzing deeper whatever-whatever would take you out of the game.
@@GamingWithCalvin1 I think that you your description is less a "good story" and more "any story at all."
Love the Parks and Rec Reference!
@@lnsflare1 I mean, the things that happen have to be interesting, the characters have to be well written, the world it's building has to be intricate, and the stakes have to actually mean something.
But the whole deal with this object or action symbolizing this theme or this other object or action is definitely more of a "old english poetry that they make you read in english class" sort of thing, than a "stuff I want to deal with while playing a video game" sort of thing. No english teachers are going to be analyzing video game cutscenes any time soon.
@@GamingWithCalvin1 I don’t get how a story having layers would take someone „out of a game“, it just adds to it for the people who notice. You‘re giving me vibes of a less radical Miyamoto ngl
I do wish we could get another game like Super Paper Mario, because honestly it still means so much to me. And it's because of the story that it does; that story, that game, was the first time I REALLY saw what a game could be. What it could mean to me emotionally (I may or may not have cried multiple times while playing but that's neither here nor there). Dimentio, to this day, is still one of if not my favourite Mario villains. Story is important, especially if you can connect to someone like that through it. At least that's what I think.
Super Mario RPG was far better than Super. Super should have been a different IP entirely it was a Romeo and Juliet story co-staring Mario and company. I won't even get into the shitty game play mechanics and forgettable characters. Super Paper Mario is the black sheep for a reason. It's good to have a story in a game imo but Super took it too far.
I think the entire fanbase would be totally fine if the Super Paper Mario gameplay became the new standard for the series if it also meant we would still get great stories.
the main issue at hand is the fact that all the fans are voicing their opinion of what they do or don't want myamoto to do and he has previously stated that he refuses to do what others press him, or the company to do.
I'm fine without a grand story for a platformer, but some genres, like RPGs, absolutely need a story to make you care about your party.
nobodys asking for a "grand" story in a platformer. we just want something thats even 1% more than "bad guy did a bad, go get him and save the day."
thats what mario sunshine, galaxy 1, and oddysey did. and everyone loved it.
thats what the 2000's sonic games did. and everyone loved it, even if it started getting hit or miss around 2005.
thats what rayman did. and everyone loved it.
thats what sonic frontiers did. and everyone loved it.
@@OmegaChase1002 Sonic frontiers is amazing because they went way beyond what they needed to do and humanized Eggman in that game.
@@morphstarchangeling8024 that also applies to its story. We have not had a Sonic story this good since Adventure 2 and Black Knight.
@@OmegaChase1002 THIS. it's so annoying when people completely disregard the value of rosalina's storybook because "mario games don't need a story" (and yes, I've seen people actually say that). of course mario games don't need a story! nobody's ever said that! but a game just having that 'something special' will automatically make a game better just by it being there. it elevates a game from simply being "really fun" to being the full package. an actual, unforgettable experience.
it's just like arlo said: there's a difference between "gameplay first" and "gameplay ONLY". and most mario platformers (except the three you named) are gameplay ONLY. they usually have as polished mechanics as possible for a video game, but their stories, characters, artstyle, worlds, and miscellaneous aspects of the presentation are utterly neglected. they're as video gamey as possible, for better or worse. yes, gameplay is the most important aspect of a game, but the other aspects of a game shouldn't be neglected for the sake of the gameplay. and those are the games that, while typically very good and well made, I would rarely, if ever, recommend to other people. they simply don't leave any sort of impression. all things considered, galaxy 1 and odyssey are the only true must-play mario games, because they have an actual identity.
@@jclkaytwo story should come second, but never last.
There's a CZcamsr I follow named Ruby of Blue who put this whole situation best - "with great gameplay, you have a great game, but with a great story on top of that, you have an unforgettable experience." I myself believe that great gameplay, mechanics, etc. are the foundation for a good game and are what initially hook people in, but the story is what makes people stay.
This is why Ever Oasis is a brilliant masterpiece and one of the best 3DS games ever created.
That's actually why I stopped playing Mario. It was the same shit over and over, with no real motivation.
@@lucario774pika I recommend Banjo Kazooie, it's basically what where to happen if Mario had a story.
@Orange Slash I tried it. I got bored around Treasure Trove Cove and quit in Clanker's Cavern. Just not for me.
@@lucario774pika The game becomes so much harder when to get to Rusty Bucket Bay💀💀.
Other recommendations are Hat in Time, and the Shantae games, except for the console version of the Seven Sirens.
Are you okay? Blaming people? "I don't know him, but let's assume things about him." Dude, you take things downright personally and twist things to prove you're right. Ever heard about Pikmin? Star Fox? You also really overstate the Rosalina book.
Edit: Spelling mistake.
Koizumi also showed the storybook to Miyamoto and he approved.
"proof" ≠ "prove" minor spelling mistake i win
@@ronster. Thanks, I guess?
Have a cookie.
Ok, so after watching this video I went Supermariot's video where he tries to debunk the Miyamoto anti-story schtick and I'd REALLY recommend watching that video if you want to see the other side of the argument. It's a good way to see both arguments before coming to a concrete conclusion.
EDIT: Supermariot has recently uploaded a longer video on the matter after this video came out. Go check it out if you have the time.
I don’t think this should be about “picking sides”. The anti Miyamoto narrative is growing out of control for reasons that are completely wrong, for mere myths and misconceptions.
@@superkoopamocha Exactly that. Like, people praise Koizumi for MM, but then completely ignore that Miyamoto co-wrote OoT.
@@superkoopamocha I reworded the comment hope it sounds better.
@@GordanTheToad it does 👍
I have to say I’d wish that SuperMarioT’s video was shorter and clearer but it’s still the best answer to this.
@@superkoopamocha It still sounds to me like you want to be on the side of correct information instead of misinformation. That's not a bad thing.
The biggest problem isn’t that Miyamoto doesn’t want to put a lot of focus on storytelling in games, it’s that he doesn’t allow others to focus on storytelling when it comes his characters, even when he isn’t working on the game.
Now I tend to desire more simple storytelling (and when I say simple, I don’t mean no vibrant world or strong characters dynamics, I just don’t need a deep dive into into their psyche, watching two friends playing around and teasing each other is more interesting to me than a character being wadded down by a dark and troubled past), all I want is a hero who represents a Paragon of Virtue trying to achieve a goal and a villain, representing Vice, seeking to stop the hero from succeeding, so I don’t care much for stories with “dark” or “mature” undertones in them. Despite this, if you ‘allowed’ someone to use your characters and they created a strong story that gardener an audience that’s comes to expect that level of storytelling, disproving of it is going to make you look bad.
Explain why Miyamoto allowed the Teen Titans Go Movie director to use his characters then and ACTUALLY LIKES THE STORY??
@@HylianBean97 because Movies are a different form of entertainment. Their entire purpose is storytelling. Video game’s purpose, meanwhile, is storytelling AND gameplay.
@@teddyj9482 And Miyamoto was a producer for games like Paper Mario 64, PMTTYD, SPM, produced and superised games like Ocarina of Time which was quite focused on story("Miyamoto wanted to make a game that was cinematic yet distinguished from films", "Toru Osawa created the scenario for the game, based on a story idea by Miyamoto and Yoshiaki Koizumi."), allowed Rosalina's backstory in Super Mario Galaxy, more focus on story in Sunshine and Odyssey, he is behind Pikmin franchise which may not be focused primarily on the story, but still has quite a good plot. Also Yoshiaki Koizumi is his protege, though Koizumi prioritizes story more than Miyamoto.
I don't know, it doesn't seem like he is against stories in videogames, just he sees gameplay as a bigger priority though he isn't against adding good story where it's possible without harming the gameplay.
It's so weird for someone who made LoZ.
It's like the brothers Grimm saying they hate folktales.
@@sharkchannel61 I just personally speculate that Miyamoto doesn't think Mario games specifically need a strong story, given that he's worked on other franchises with a bigger emphasis on story/world building
This is a very interesting discussion. I teach English to high school freshmen, and one thing we cover a lot in that year of class is how a good, effective story follows 5 stages-exposition (AKA the setup), rising action, climax, falling action, and resolution (AKA the closure, how things end). Games that Miyamoto has had the most direct involvement in almost ubiquitously don’t have that structure. You’re right that it’s more of a scenario than a story, usually just exposition in the first 30-second intro cutscene and then a climax at the end. Nothing in between or after gives it any weight or lasting substance-it’s all about the gameplay! The New Super Marios are probably the best example of this. Where is the rising action? The gameplay rises, but that doesn’t evoke the same thing a “story” in the traditional sense does (at least not for most people). Where’s the resolution? To use New Soup again, we don’t know anything about how Mario or Peach or Bowser FEEL in the ending, so there’s no sense of closure, just a dry knowledge that the game is done and a sense of accomplishment if the gameplay resonated with you. I love New Super Mario Bros, Mario Galaxy, the original Zelda-all with Miyamoto’s DNA-but it’s interesting to think about what that approach has come to lack.
Mario games don’t need story. They just don’t. They’re fun obstacle courses getting from point A to point B. If you want one, that’s what the movie is for.
Great breakdown. I think the biggest loss is replayability. Much as a book or movie with a great story gets you to pick it up again so you can savor the foreshadowing and find even more hints you missed the first time, lacking story in games just cripples the desire to replay it. There's nothing to glean, it's just mashing buttons in a particular order again because you liked a feedback loops of pretty colors and sounds when you did it Right. For children's entertainment, that might have value, but I firmly believe children can appreciate it beyond Nostalgia when they grow older too. The absense of story... Is quite sad when you think of the lost potential revenue and customer engagement, let alone the beautiful experiences that we can relate in our real lives, we're missing out.
@@Nope2479 That's what the Paper Mario series was for, until Miyamoto had them lobotomized.
@@Nope2479 Nah, fam. Play Super Mario Sunshine and you'll fall in love.
But games only need bare bones story the player fills in the blanks
Red Dead Redemption 2 made me choke up at points. Stories in games are an incredible way to enhance the game experience. To ignore this is to deny the players the best experience you can provide
SuperMarioT would like a word with you, Arlo.
I can only imagine what it was like for Illumination working with him on the Mario movie.
"But does the movie NEED a story? It's not too late to just have Mario wordlessly journeying for two hours before saving Peach from Bowser at the end!"
@Jermare He also said a *friggin roleplaying game with STORY* in the title doesn't need story, so I don't think I care for the difference that it's a movie.
I think a big part of why stories are so important in games is because of the memories made through them. Like, when I remember my favorite games, I don't go "ooh, that platforming challenge was fantastic" or "I loved that one specific mechanic"--I remember stories and characters. Story shouldn't get in the way of gameplay, but without it you get relatively samey games like the New Super Mario Bros. series. Those games are fine, but they just kind of blend together.
I rarely remember game story's in detail but i often remember gameplay parts very good.
@@leonidasvonsparta Fair. I guess people's brains work differently. Really, I think it'd be more accurate to say that the most memorable parts of games are when gameplay and story work together really well. Majora's Mask with the three-day time limit the world's built around, for example. (And I think my point about the NSMB games still stands.)
For memorable stories and characters you could just as easily read a book or watch a movie though
@@Nachtflut Does that mean that games are better off without story? Especially when gameplay can help engage the audience and even enhance the story in some cases? Take Hollow Knight's memory sequence in the abyss, for example, or ALL OF CELESTE.
Honestly it's why I stopped playing Mario and went to Sonic. Each game had a different scenario, a different story, or even if beat Eggman was always the same thing. What he does and how he does it is always different. Adding context to the adventure. Mario games are fun and play well. But it's the same story, Im not endeared to anyone because the story has them doing the same thing. I really should give the paper Mario series a closer look when the chance presents itself so I too can complain to Nintendo to give us Mother 3 and good story driven paper Mario games 😂
It makes me sad how such great people can be so close minded... Miyomoto is like this with his opposition towards stories, and even Sakurai (the legend behind Smash Bros, and Kid Icarus Uprising) has an unusual dislike of sequels. At the very least Sakurai isn't quite so stubborn, which is why the Kirby series is directed by Shinya Kumazaki now, allowing the series to grow and continue to develop (even surpassing their predecessors in my opinion).
Though the thing about Kirby is it seems like Sakurai resents the games made after his time with the series, since those games barely get any nods in the Smash series.
Miyamoto's game reputation is dangling from a cliff and the interview was trying to be his salvation. Miyamoto grabs on to the interview's hand as it trys to pull him out of his anti-story pit. But just before Miyamoto gets out scott free, Arlo comes with a giant branch and shouts "Oh No You Don't!" As he pushes Miyamoto back down because he feels he doesn't deserve the salavation he was offered.
I literally visualized this in my head as I read it and I loved it
Miyamoto is a stubborn old codger, and the way he undersells his own customers intelligence is downright disrespectful.
He once pushed back against having an orchestral soundtrack in Super Mario Galaxy because it would "Confuse the player and make them think they left their TV on in another room"
He hung starfox and platinum games out to dry when he forced his console gimmicks on Star Fox Zero's development.
He gave Aonuma nightmares trying to meet the extreme deadline for Majora's Mask.
I don't believe for two seconds he didnt intimidate the paper mario staff into seeing it his way.
Screw you Miyamoto; its time for you to go live in a home.
like pupperjackcheese said, I totally envisioned all this, and even heard Arlo's "Ooooh no ya don't."
I think it comes down to how well the Mario Movie does story wise.
@@sasaki999pro
Miyamoto is the bully they fear. He's THE boss. 😂
That ideology only really works depending on the type of game you’re making. It’s if a game like a fighting game or a platformer, then yes, gameplay should ABSOLUTELY go first.
But when you’re making a game like an RPG, then a good story or narrative can be just as important if not more.
Mario and Luigi was very story based and that's an RPG.
Sadly we might not ever get another one.
Even in those gameplay - centric games, story can be the the thing that elevates it from a great game to a masterpiece. Majora's Mask, Links Awakening and Mario Galaxy are all prime examples.
@@CountMonsparkle good examples, but it's definitely a case by case scenario. Easiest example of this is any Donkey Kong Country game. Just imagine lengthy story segments between stages, it would get annoying pretty fast when all you want is the quick and snappy gameplay
@@CountMonsparkle Indeed! A game that manages to balance both aspects and make them compliment each other are games that can be viewed as perfect.
Even in fighting games, if you look at all the enduring classics which still get sequels today, the characters will all have backstories, motives and reasons for why they are fighting. Even if it's all pretty barebones those backstories are what give the characters personality that both informs visual design and can even bleed over into how they have evolved mechanically.
Story and Gameplay can both be good
I wish Miyamoto would put even a little bit more thought into letting us have them
Super Paper Mario made me cry when I played it, and then I played it over and over again, I loved the game especially for the story and I would love to have more games like it
The whole point of appointing different people to different jobs is to do all of that in one game. You have someone handling the story, someone for the art direction, the music, the level design and maps, ect. Everyone plays a part in it. Why cut one of those out?
Origami King made me cry as well.
XC3 made me cry as well, yet I think it's probably the weakest story I played.
Seconding that recommendation: I've had gerds (basically super heartburn) my whole life and ACV helps a ton, but the reason it works so well is partially because of the probiotics in the vinegar. After discovering this, I started taking a regular probiotic with similar strains to ACV and i haven't had heartburn for over a year. Good recommendation, Arlo! : )
i don’t think Miyamoto’s interview and your narrative are entirely incompatible.
Here’s my narrative I made using both sources:
it seems like Mr. Miyamoto-san isn’t actively hateful towards story-driven games, but would rather focus on core game design, just as the interview says.
He values the power of gameplay first and foremost, as seen in mainline Mario games.
This philosophy, alongside negative feedback to SPM’s story aspects, pushed him to make the executive decision/suggestion to minimize narrative in Paper Mario, sending the series into its current direction.
i find it really funny that miyamoto actually even took it into consideration that people may not want story in paper mario. I mean the first game in the series was literally called "Mario's STORY" in Japan like what the hell did he think people were playing it for?
Clearly, we're all just CRAZY about paper! Love the stuff! I eat two pages for breakfast every morning!
@@nathaniel5016 damn only for breakfast? what abt lunch and dinner? cos me personally i have paper for all meals of the day
@@nathaniel5016i eat gears
@@lemonadesnake Gears for breakfast
The dude probably thought people loved the gameplay so much and saw the story as an obstacle or something. Which makes the fact that PM hasn't had a consistent gameplay style since Super
I hope Koizumi managed to get something good into ToTK for us. I really liked the memories of Zelda and how she was and actual character instead of a princess mcguffin.
You NEED TO PLAY Spirit Tracks
Yeah I hope the game actually has any substance too. I’ve been starved since skyward sword 😭
Koizumi said he doesn't want to work on Zelda anymore, and hasn't worked on Zelda since Majora's Mask. He even said he didn't want to work on Majora's Mask and only did because it needed him or else it wouldn't be finished in time.
You mean Aonuma?
@@sunfeatherX3 IKR, BOTW was really blend for me since it lacked narrative and memorable moment. In fact BOTW is pretty forgetful
For me and Miyamoto I like to see him as that grandpa you see for holidays. He is sweet, caring, nice and friendly. He has things he loves to show, games even with fun things to do. But for him stories are like that of something he just doesn't get. He doesn't see the power they can have. It's like modern convinces or even some other topics I wish to not say but you all know what older generations don't understand. In that way I see it as sad he still thinks games are just for fun and stories are not important. But at the same time..there is a part of me that wants to think maybe he has given it some thought with stories and his past is just that the past. It sucks those games and series had his touch with stories ruin them for several people. Or Koizumi deciding to give them anyway in-spite of him. But honestly the man is 70 years old. I wanna think maybe just maybe he changed his views and this article can show it. That or he's just a man in the past wishing to continue what he believes and when he does leave this world the new generations can try to capture his desires while also catering to the fans current desires like story.
Wait so games are more than just for fun what other reason would you have for playing a game if it isn’t fun?
Btw I’m not being sarcastic
@@boxman5381 I meant simple fun which is something that means games as just playing them and not really caring for plot or characters and only for the function of the game. I do apologize for my late message I didn't see this till now! Also no I understood your not being sarcastic! My fault for not explaining.
The flashbacks to Super Mario Galaxy 2 cut me to my core. Galaxy was my favorite Super Mario game in large part because of the unique atmosphere on the Observatory. Peach's Castle was kind of generic, and Delfino Plaza was fun and goofy, but the Comet Observatory was different. It had a wistful and lonely mood, complemented perfectly by the iconic "Family" theme playing in different variations. Obviously, Rosalina's storybook was great, but even without it, the atmosphere alone was still something special. It highlighted the loneliness of space, but made it more light and optimistic. The fact that the sequel went out of its way to make completely new assets just to throw all that out the window was an insult. There's a reason Rosalina is still a fan-favorite character present in every sports and party game and not purple knockoff Patrick.
edit* and to add more, I said all of that without mentioning "story" a single time. I don't think it's just that Miyamoto hates story, I think he hates literally anything that isn't gameplay. I think every game developer and even the executives know that games need some kind of "special sauce", but for Miyamoto, if the sauce isn't in the gameplay, then he will actively fight against it as if it will detract from the gameplay.
The initial concept for Super Mario Sunshine was going to be more story-driven btw
Don't forget that, even in Galaxy 1, Rosalina was meant to be, by implication, from a different cycle of the universe in which Peach is her mother and also dead, but this was removed from the JP/NA releases by Miyamoto (we only know any of this from a screenshot from a French translation of the game).
Exactly why I think Galaxy 1 is far superior, Galaxy 2’s new mechanics are nothing compared to the beautiful and sad atmosphere of Galaxy 1. The reason Galaxy 1 stood out so much is that atmosphere, I mean just look at how iconic the soundtrack and visuals are. Galaxy 2 replaced the dark empty void of space and calm, quiet corners of the universe with sunny blue skies and upbeat, silly worlds.
Not sure whose fault or decision it is, but i really don't like how Rosalina has just become Peach-lite recently. The change in voice in the more recent games really doesn't help with these comparisons.
That, and just all the little ways Mario Galaxy went out of its way to immerse you in the experience. The difference between going into an observatory where a few galaxies can be seen in orbit, and launching yourself off into the distance to get there VS. Going to a steering wheel which takes you to a linear gameified level select screen with little personality is staggering. So many little touches and details and things sprinkled about made Mario Galaxy this whimsical adventure to a mysterious place, and Mario Galaxy 2 a video game with gravity mechanics.
For me, an engaging story is the difference between a merely decent game, and a great game. It can make a game so much more fun. And as a wise man once said, "If it's not fun, why bother?"
l put my hamster in a sock and sIammed it against the furniture.
@@TippyHippy This isn't Tumblr, Dave
This is a side note, but thanks for including the TTYD gameplay footage in its original 4:3 aspect ratio! For some reason, many videos on CZcams have it stretched to 16:9.
Looool I hadn’t seen an Arlo video in 2yrs, however as soon as I saw this Thumbnail It was clear. We are going to talk about Paper Mario 🤣🤣
Pay attention to his phrasing in the interview: he says he doesn't *mind* the story approach, but prefers the gameplay approach. Miyamoto may say he thinks that the story approach can work in certain games, but he also admitted in that interview through subtle phrasing that he prefers avoiding story in games he's a part of beyond the premise (or as Arlo puts on blast, he hates story in his games).
Agreed. Miyamoto says he doesn't hate the story approach--it's just not for him.
I think Arlo is saying Miyamoto goes much further than "not hating" the story approach by actively removing it from Nintendo games. Sure, he may be ok with non-Nintendo games having story, but first party Nintendo games better not have any of that plot in it.
I agree with him, though..
It's why I love the games he worked on.
There's a concept called
Misinterpretation lol
@@HylianBean97 It isn't, or are you saying Koizumi and Star Fox Zero devs who were subjected to Miyamoto whims were liars?
They can't be all Tetris, they can't all be Minecraft.
Unless they are Tetris and Minecraft.
Story is so important to a game, not every game needs a story, but a story can amplify a game by extreme lengths. Games like Xenoblade, Fire Emblem I really like, but I would never have tried these series if they didn't have a story I could get invested in.
Fire emblem radiant dawn was the first fire emblem game ive ever played. And what I found fascinating was how dark and complex the game was.
It's funny because I couldn't get into Fire Emblem because of the stories. Not because they were bad but because dialog scenes just feel like they drag on when I just want to get back to the otherwise fun gameplay.
@@mr.awesome6011 Which ones have you played? That definitely applies to the modern games, but the older ones were genuinely well written.
I think Chuggaconroy's "sticking it to sticker star" video essays did a better job communicating Miyamoto's involvement with story, in particular with paper mario. It was also much better researched and had much more even-handed arguments. I agree with the fundamental point of this video, but with a topic as beaten to death as this one, I felt this could've used some more work before publishing
Koizumi didn't sneak rosalina's storybook into the game at all, actually. He made it in secret, but presented it to miyamoto once it was done before it got put into the game.
Just throwing that out there.
Facts.
Why would he have to do it in secret though? Essentially his boss didn’t like his ideas so he had to do a bunch of extra work in his free time. If getting a story in a game means doing all the work on my own just to pitch the idea then that’s a big problem, especially for an art form based on collaboration.
@@frothyslider253 Sometimes the easiest way to explain and pitch an idea is to just do it, even in a trusted collaborative environment.
In this case, based on Koizume's own retelling he just really wanted to write a detailed story for the game himself despite being its director because he used to do scenario writing, and still enjoyed that work. The need to do it in secret was from it not being his job, not from someone having turned down the pitch.
Let's suppose he had made a pitch that was accepted: The result would be that his vision would be filtered through someone else whose actual job was to do the writing. Considering half the reason he did it in secret was because he was feeling nostalgic for the actual, personal act of scenario writing, pitching it instead would have defeated the point no matter what Miyamoto's reaction was.
I'm not making any claims about how Miyamoto feels about story in general here. But it seems off to not take Koizume at his word for why he handled Rosalina's Storybook the way he did.
@@pv2 Sadly Miyamto found out about Koizume sneaking in story, and the two had a big argument.
its as simple as this: he believes his workers are making toys, he doesn't believe they're making art.
"art" is a fairly meaningless term anyway, it is just an elitist term to separate certain mediums above others arbitrarily. well, the word itself is not inherently bad but just the way it is used is questionable.
Just like how idiots think animation is for kids and not for everyone
so you're saying unless its got a story its not art? games are a visual medium and there is art on the screen at all times. they are also literally creating worlds. id also argue it can be an art form to relay information subtley about how a game world functions just by the game design rather than dialogue.
And yet his games are most certainly works of art.
@@ricoryanyuna i dont disagree w that. if anything the most 'pure' form of games as an artform would be things that rely more on their mechanics and less on aspects originating in other media ('pure' here being just a descriptor, not an indicator of quality). but i do think the mentality that miyamoto displays is one that doesnt care much for the narrative aspects of games (not just plot but narrative more broadly) or for the emotional range of games as a medium beyond the simple goal of 'fun'. like for example im playing through celeste right now, and it's very much a game that's all about fine tuned mechanics, but it's also a game that wants to take you on a specific emotional trip and builds itself around that. its creators cared about both of those things at the same time and tried to integrate them with each other. it's a more complete mentality imo.
Literally, this is I'm glad fanfiction exists because if Nintendo won't give us the stories we deserve, then we can through the power of writing. We will do what Nintenwon't.
Sometimes fanfiction writing can be garbage so it’s a 50/50 chance you’ll get something good the best ones are the ones that understand the world and the characters and doesn’t make them out of character
Honestly, they can hire one of those writers... And pay them a very reasonable sum, to create synopsis and dialogue for their stories.
You don't have to hire GRRM or Brandon Sanderson, Jesus just get somebody who knows how to do it well.
wow i never knew this about the galaxy games. this really helps provide context for what is so unappealing to galaxy 2 for me compared to how much i love 1
read the title as "sony" instead of "story" and prepared myself to hear some beef lmaoo
You have narrative-driven games, gameplay-driven games, and varying degrees of both.
Miyamoto is an artisan of gameplay. He understands how to create a game that is fun, because he understands what makes gameplay fun. But he doesn't understand that games can be a vessel to tell a story, that some games are more story than gameplay and that that isn't a bad thing.
If a video game is driven primarily by its story or narrative over interesting or refined gameplay, you might as well just make a movie or a book at that point.
I don't think he understands what makes video games fun actually because I was utterly bored by Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 and quit the franchise. The same story and villain got so insulting by that point that it actually effected the gameplay - I was able to ignore the problem for a while but by the time those games rolled in, boy... I really felt the staleness.
@@Vaquix000 Are all your comments just about some agenda of yours?
miyamoto is a paradoxical guy. on one hand, he's a revolutionary in the video game space. his legacy in gaming is clearly seen. on the other hand, he's sort of close minded when it comes to things like this. i guess he's a product of his time, back when these stories couldn't be shown in game. gameplay had to be prioritized because it's what games needed to be compelling
He developed a mindset that let him thrive in the conditions. It's very understandable and with the results it produced admirable. I wish he'd been more open to story as the technology developed, but thankfully we had other people Koizumi and possibly Aonuma who were more invested in that side of things.
It all worked out pretty well for the most part.
Mans trying to sound smart 💀 💀
That is just him being stubborn, even back during Atari era people tried to make games with stories like Indiana Jones
I mean, games like Final Fantasy 6 and Chrono Trigger still managed to be revolutionary decades ago...
He's not stuck in the 90s, he's kinda stuck in a time before that...
@@samf.s.7731 yeah im referring to an 80s mindset
Like the evidence kinda sides with Miyamoto here, at least with game sales on Nintendo consoles. Most if not all of their top 10 selling games have hardly any story narrative. Pokemon is probably the closest thing to a story driven game they have in their top 10 sales.
Yeah if the 1% liking story seems way off, it could be that Arlo is in a bubble.
sure but I don’t think a good story would've made those games less fun or made them sell worse. If anything I think that would've improved the sales. But also I don't think your statement is necessarily true. BOTW, TOTK, and Scarlet/Violet are in their top 10 and all three have a good amount of depth in them, story-wise
I think I see where he's coming from, for Paper Mario at least. He has a vision, a sorta minimalist design where you get raw gameplay in the PM universe. But the issue with that is the already established identity of the series. It could've worked as a spinoff. With the expectations of the fans for a main series title, that doesn't sound like a good idea. Though the fact he repeatedly shut down Koizumi for story ideas in other projects too really puts the nail in the coffin that he had legit issues with stories as a whole. Which is a shame, definitely wouldn't expect that to come from someone as experienced and knowledgeable as him. Feels stubborn rather than wise. Oh well, I guess I should be glad he saw resistance to his ideals and even that some seeped into the games!
Honestly I never even knew about Koizumi's impact, and having learned about it consider me radicalized. The more I hear about Miyamoto's whims and the impact they have, as well as what others have been doing when they're able to go around Miyamoto, the more I think it's time he ultimately stepped away. We should never forget his contributions, but the medium has clearly evolved past him.
I mean, without Miyamoto, we'd have Mario's Paint Attack instead of Splatoon. I feel people are really overextending what little info we do have and not critically analyzing how actual game development works. There's like 30+ more people on the team than just Miyamoto, who was busy with running EAD at the time. Even then, a Paper Mario game can work with little story, that's how Color Splash iterates on the formula and fixes most of the issues with Sticker Star. We can look at the larger sign of failure like Vanpool being brought on at the 11th hour to fix the game. It's honestly more the gameplay being incredibly bland that really kills Sticker Star. The bland story with virtually no characters just makes it insufferable.
@@PIKMINROCK1 Miyamoto is all about Mario and doesn't want a story in Mario's game. He didn't even like Luigi that much at first. In fact, Miyamoto wants to erase Daisy. Yikes!
@@Hauntaku but he's not all about Mario. Tezuka is more all about Mario if we referring to Nintendo executives. Miyamoto is every internal Nintendo IP. That kind of breadth means he's not actually involved in most beyond the milestones.
@@PIKMINROCK1 miaymoto isn't even involved in Splatoon
@@ausgod538 The Iwata Asks for Splatoon says that he "flipped the teatable" when they presented an early demo of the game and suggested they use Mario characters. Because as his job of head of EAD, he supervised every internal Nintendo game.
I mean, Miyamoto comes from the genesis of video games when "Guy defeats bad guy and rescue princess" was more than enough history, but we've come so far now, certainly is not enough anymore, and nothing compares to games that can deliver on both gameplay and story
He's a dinosaur, he needs to go away for mario to be good again.
Miyamoto, the guy who revolutionized videogames, is holding back massively the game company that did so
@@Vaquix000 Miyamoto has gone away; he's been away for several years now. He's said many times in more recent years that he wants these franchises to last long after he's gone, so he's taken a step back and tries to encourage the newer generations of developers. His role in Breath of the Wild and Mario Odyssey essentially amounted to only offering advice when asked and only occasionally contributing some ideas of his own; never blocking or cutting anything.
Arlo is absolutely right. Let's not forget what really happened behind the scenes, but also remember the way you felt when you heard your favorite story in a Nintendo game. Ocarina of Time, Rosalina's storybook, the stories in Majora's Mask, Shulk's quest to fight the Mechon, the story of Raven Beak and Quiet Robe, the struggle between the Luminoth and Ing, the first Paper Mario games, Earthbound, Chibi-Robo, even Star Fox Adventures. Also the stories introduced in F-Zero Gx for all the drivers. There is so much there to work with. Why does Miyamoto shut down F-Zero so hard?
Thank you for being the voice of what way too many are thinking. You always hit the nail on the head ❤❤❤ Love you Arlo!!!!!