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This Drum Technique Almost F**ked Up My Playing!
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- čas přidán 4. 09. 2019
- This drum lesson talks about my experience learning the Moeller Method and how the Moeller technique almost ruined my drumming! If you don't want to make the same mistake... please watch! The Moeller method of drumming has become popular over the past 20 years through the Moeller technique Jim Chapin brought to the forefront. More recently, guys like JoJo Mayer expanded on the Moeller method with his "Secret Weapons" DVD. Some drummers swear by it... others can't stand it. Where do you stand on the Moeller Method? If you enjoyed this video, consider subscribing: bit.ly/2IpeubN
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My man talks about the moeller method like he's telling the story of getting hooked on smack
Haha... well... if the shoe fits.
To be honest it doesn’t sound like the moeller technique was the problem. It sounds like your inexperience as a musician was. The moeller stroke is a great technique to produce a good sound on the instrument and optimize rebound so one does not need to work as hard at whatever style they are playing. You just have to know how to use it in a musical way.
That’s exactly right! As an inexperienced player I prioritized the Moeller method as my main technique and relied on it for everything. You can imagine how many other young players land in the same pitfall.
What an excellent & considered comment!
Isn’t that exactly what he was telling us? He was saying he used the Moeller for everything and then learned how and when to use it properly.
@@humblehombre9904 tbh I haven’t watch the video in a minute. But based on the title it sounds like the technique was the problem which isn’t the case. Most of the top players in todays era do use the moeller as their primary technique for everything from simple drum beats to complex solos.
@@jamisonbrooks5887 Yes... Moeller does get baked into the cake, so to speak... but the lesson here is to focus on everything, not just Moeller. Pros understand this. Sometime the allure of "Speed" and instant gratification makes less experienced drummer not work so hard on fundementals. That can be a real problem.
The thumbnail took me aback a bit, but the lesson makes a lot of sense; all of the techniques have to be assimilated, rather than using one as a crutch. Thanks for the info!
Ben Dawn-Cross ... ahhh you got it! It’s not an anti Moeller video... it’s a make sure you have a good foundation before you study Moeller video 🙂 you are most welcome 🙏
@@Thedrummersalmanac One year later! Watching this again, your comment about how slowing down your Moeller chops made them not work rings a bell. I find that as I work through exercises at various tempos, there's a kind of baton-pass point between the formal and informal technique; trying to stay in that zone.
@@bendawn-cross5622 YES!!... for me it was around 100bpm where that switch happens... I can start to let go and let the informal out more.
I'm a guitar/bass player who always hopped on the kit for fun in bands, filled in once or twice. Finally just got a full kit from my wife for my bday. Already watched a couple of your videos and got some nice direction to start heading into drummer territory vs "can play a few beats". Thanks! Subbed!
VBshredder awsome! I live to see musicians cross over to drums. Thanks for subbing and welcome 🙏
I love that you shared your experience to create a somewhat warning to beginners who are pumped to play fast fast fast loud loud loud. And tbh, this is true sometimes we tend to go for a shortcut rather than endure hours of practice. 😅 Thank you for this. I hope that your viewers got it and won't miss the point.
Great video! I grew up playing drums, never hearing of the Moeller method, so I relied on the formal style. But along the way I picked up some of the informal style without knowing that there was a distinction.
As you correctly point out, the informal style is invaluable as a particular “tool” within the drummer’s skill set, but it’s not an alternative to the formal style. The two styles are equally important, and the real trick is learning how integrate them appropriately.
Exactly... It's a lesson I personally headed a little late in my development. Unfortunately, a lot of drummers see this title, leave me a negative comment, and never watch the video... Thank you for watching it and for sharing some of your story with me. 🙏🏻
thedrummersalmanac
Lol. I’m 58. I grew up playing Zep, The Who, Rush, etc., but never professionally. I got a used set and started playing again a few years ago. I learned of the Moeller method only yesterday. I watched four of Jim Chapin’s vids, then saw this one. I was interested to get a different point of view. Ironically,, you actually give a very good lesson on the informal style. You also do a great job of explaining the formal style, and why it’s essential to all drumming.
Thanks for expanding my knowledge!
Enjoyed the video Jay. I've been thinking about working on Moeller to have more options in the toolbox when things pick up. It was funny to hear you mention Stick Control. That book and Syncopation were a big part of some lessons I took in college. They collectively gave me quite a bit of control over what had previously been a lot of chops... similar to what you were talking about. Cheers man, keep up the good stuff.
Chuck Ginocchio thanks for chiming in, Chuck. Glad you dug the video. Those two books are the cornerstone of what I teach my students. If you do Stick Control right... it’s a game changer. I have found most drummers own the book, but few practice it effectively.
@@Thedrummersalmanac Yeah, I can see that. I was lucky to have an awesome teacher here in Chicago, who had been at it for probably 40 years at the time. He did something similar to what you described in your first lesson. I thought I was going to be all impressive... it never happened. He opened the books... play this, read that. It was over inside of 5 minutes. LOL. I spent an hour a week, twice a week having him mark up those two books (and a third) , and I practiced two hours a day that entire summer, I never blew an exercise, and we kept going. Incredible experience that kicked my ass, but taught me a lot. In the case of Stick Control, just getting those 3s and 4s in each hand and all the variations created tons of options on the set... good times, albeit about 30 years ago now. lol
@@ChuckGinocchio Hey man... That's still the way to do it. You are blessed that your teacher kept you on the right path. There were indeed some great teachers in New York when I was young... I just wished I had listened to them more carefully. lol ...as far as Stick Control, that's the reason it's still just as relevant today as it was in 1935!
I been playing 15yrs. A teacher I just got noticed I don’t rebound. I was never taught. So he's teaching double stroke rebound and Moeller, says It’ll help with technique and speed. I see what you’re saying here, it’s good to learn but not for use in all situations harder to control at slow tempos. Thanks for sharing:) glad I saw this so I don’t rely all on rebound for everything and use more hand technique.
Just understand that both are important... Moeller technique is not the answer for everything... but it is very valuable
This is really a great lesson. Thanks a lot !!
Always love hearing stories about the late Kim Plainfield. His educational works are masterpieces. Was my dream to have studied with him. 🥁
He was great... very tough... but his teachings are engrained in the way I play drums and instruct others.
Interesting vid thanks, my advice is to take what you want from the moeller and incorporate it with other techniques to get the feel and sound that you want when playing a gig. It helps me to play very relaxed, I use the whip for backbeats, crash, up down on hi hat and maybe some fills. But you got to practice the moeller slow, it's the hardest thing to do, I don't think it should be shown as a get fast quick technique.
Dov Skipper exactly... and I not saying it was my teachers fault. It was more my fault as a young student for developing the Moeller without having the balance and developing the physicality. Once I found the technique, I just ran with it and used it as a crutch. But it doesn’t work in every situation. That’s what you learn with experience and studying with different teachers. Kim was just able to really help me focus on my weaknesses.
Great observation. If you practice it slowly, you can get a bit of swing and pop that people respond to on a gig.
After seeing Ed Soph explaining playing ride patterns once, I could see a practical use there of Moeller, at least utilizing part of it. So at least in that sense I think it's great, and I think Jim Chapin encouraged people to utilize it in multiple ways. Thanks for an entertaining and useful video.
Hey awesome video congrats and thanks
Fascinating insight. Only thing is, as with any human learning process your understanding has to be very deep to properly appreciate the advantages/shortcomings of the field of study. The Moeller motion is a great way to get into the techniques of drumming and allows you to see the 'biomechanics' of the arm-wrist-hand-finger etc. I think it is an essential technique, ideal for most. It helps ward off injuries, and as you say with practice you can really get around the kit. For those with a curious mind and interested in pursuing hand technique you need a baseline. Having a solid Moeller foundation provides that so you can evaluate other approaches in an informed way... I play it most of the time, but I take your point about the musicality angles - it can sound rather mechanical if interpreted too literally. Love the lessons by the way - keep up the good work!
Thanks for that comment... very thought out and articulate. and I completely agree. I love the Moeller technique, especially now that I have balance and can apply it effectively. The challenge I see with students, over and over... is they see a Moeller video on CZcams... and then everything becomes "Moeller." but it's underdeveloped, poorly executed, and gets in the way of them just creating music.
I have been using Bamboo sticks for a couple years and it forced me to really hone my muscle control. I have no formal training but have spent my whole life tapping on everything and have a really good natural feel for this method, relying on it heavily.
With maple sticks its so intuitive, much more bouncy and responsive than the bamboo sticks. I had tried them to be more eco friendly - but didn't anticipate the weight difference and rigidity. Being lighter and more stiff, made the rebound less powerful - ending the roll quicker. It forced me to think slower, be more precise, and therefore have more control.
I have to hold the sticks back a little further, and a lighter grip. Definitely improved my timing, feel, fills and general groove/rhythm. Now whenever I play with maple sticks the level of response is comparable to playing guitar with heavier strings, then when you go to a lighter set you can bend easier - with maple sticks it makes faster and easier to really utilize this method.
So grateful for this channel and others like it on CZcams, allowing countless people to get essentially free lessons we can rewatch as needed.
Let me know what you think about the Moeller technique... is it part of your technique tool kit?
IMHO Moeller was/is only an exercise concept in mechanics (esp. military drumming). It's application to the modern drumset is negligable at best. Those players who've tried to apply it faithfully are just out of touch with this century. Be well.
@@drummersagainstitk I know many drummers that feel that way. There is definitely value in developing it, but there are so many that rely too heavily on it for everything. I know from studying with Frank Bellucci... who teaches it, having studied extensively with Chapin... but he also studied with Joe Morello who doesn't even refer to it as Moeller Technique at all. Bottom line is, at a certain speed your body will do it naturally... but I agree, it's the physicality that gives you the real balance to control it effectively. Thanks for sharing!
I doodle with it, but that’s about it. It’s great for the couple of things you can do with it, but it limited to only that. In other words, if you are doing sextuplets with it, it’s great, and it’s great for a swing pattern, but not much else.
drummersagainstitk Check out Joe Morello and Steve Smith... Smith is hardly out of touch with anything.
By the way, your Moeller is SMOKIN’!! I wouldn’t give that up for a second!!
I totally had the same experience as a drummer! I started developing my muscles for single strokes on the pad and immediately lost the need for the moeller technique. I was using it as a crutch for many years.
Great video Jay. I completely understand the danger of relying on Moeller for everything a drummer needs to play. Every playing situation is different, often demanding different techniques for getting the appropriate sounds and nuances from the drum.
Henrique DeAlmeida (Berklee College Prof.) has terrific study material for Hand Technique. He introduces a host of techniques for strokes, ie: Controlled strokes (ie: wrist strokes), Bounce strokes (the meat and potatoes, lol), Free Stroke, Finger Control and Moeller Technique. He also introduces the "Push/Pull" technique.
Of course most good teachers would introduce all of these techniques to his students ... however what I find very helpful in Henriques's book is that he has written out Phrases and Etudes (an Etude might be an 8 bar chunk of A then B then C then D) where within the 8 bar phrase you are required to play Finger control for 2 measures then Moeller for 2 measure. Then without stopping you may have to switch gears to fingers again for the next 2 measure. Then without stopping the phrase you are into 2 bars of playing doubles. The Etudes are in Duple and Triple feels.
The benefit of this is that you are training your mind and hands to flow in time as you move from one technique to the next. The Etudes are very musical and can be used around the set as well. Of course as a preface to the Etudes .. he does provide a table of references for each of the techniques so that there is no confusion when playing the Etude.
The book is called ... "The Ultimate Hand Technique Workshop" . It's really helped me to think ahead as to how my hands need to play before I get there.
Thanks again for the great video Jay !!
The Ultimate Hand Technique Workshop is the best book i've ever seen. I have been teaching drums for more than 35 years.
That’s great. I’ve done exercises modifying Stick control and Master Studies to practice those switches in technique, but I’ve never tried that book. I’m definitely gonna pick it up. Thank you, my friend... great comment!
Karl Unterkofler just added it to my Amazon cart 👍🏻
@@Thedrummersalmanac ... that's funny Jay. I almost want to get another copy of it ... the book I'm using is starting to get beat up. I would love to keep one just for library.
John Di Raimo Lol... I know what ya mean... I have like 4 copies of Syncopation and three copies of the new breed. 2 copies of advanced techniques and two copies of John Riley’s the art of bop drumming.
I was unintentionally using the moeller as a kid. When I started teaching corps style, it really messed up my flow around the kit.
Ironically coming back to a more rebound approach, I was able to groove again. The flow of ideas returned.
With the corps style, Icould execute some impressive licks, but it was a conscious effort for me to flow. Same with the first finger/thumb fulcrum... It's probably because I started out with the other approach. No problems at any tempo. With the tighter grips, I'd fight to not rush fills.
I still play very physically though...
That’s a very common thing with corps drummers. You just have so much practice and conditioning under those hands it becomes very hard to shut it off.
Finally, I think the goal is to control the Moeller in good time say with a metronome practice….thanks
One of the best instructional videos I've ever seen.
Thanks Matt!!! 🙏🏻
I studied with Kim drummers collective incredible drummer and human. RIP.
Yes he is sorely missed!
The Moeller method is great if you play lots of sextuplets or 8's with accents on the first of the group or the "ands.: However, good luck with getting accents on the inner bounce strokes!! Moeller is great if you want to play something more relaxed, but you will spend a lot of time learning it with only a few applications. However, it is great if you use it in a solo, but you will only need it for about 3 measures, and THAT'S IT!! Great video!
Yeah I agree... I can be limited... if you need accents in the middle of note phrases you have to start a new whip motion, which isn't always economical. It's a useful technique, but it's not a catch-all for every situation.
I had one lesson from Jim Chaplin when he visited the high school in San Diego in 1986
I got to go up and sit with him when he asked if anyone’s wanted to try on his pad
It was so cool.
I never got that good with it but I got some grip theory. Was great to meet him
I would of loved to study with Jim. Two of my teachers in NY studied directly under him, so I had some solid training, 2nd generation.
@@Thedrummersalmanac I noticed your moeller technique is exceptional
Your exercises moeller on pad with the independence cross meters etc and especially your Latin kit grooves Afro Caribbean the execution of those is outstanding. You were born to play and teach . A Bruce lee of drums
@@carlreynolds1111 thanks so much Carl… that means a ton. I actually have a tattoo on my right arm of Bruce’s Jeet Kune Do Emblem. …it means “make no way, your way” in other words… study everything!
awesome
Great demonstration at halfway of the video….
I learned Moeller 2s first because I was copying some funk players hihat shuffle and liked how it looked. I think because I learned it in the context of a groove I never had the problem you did. I used it only to get groove with my right hand and use those accents. My problem is I can Moeller all day with my right hand and to an extent with my left hand in matched... But left hand trad is just not getting that Moeller down and I am struggling to figure out how to fix it. I'm worried my technique is wrong because I'm not getting results from what is now like 100hrs practice.
It could be a form issue, but without seeing it… I am just shooting in the dark.
Your terminology is quite interesting, but I do see how it makes sense once I thought through it. Gus Moeller studied with actual military veteran snare drummers and documented what he learned, including the now largely forgotten rear fulcrum (pinky based) right hand grip (what some call the 'ancient grip'). It took me a moment to realize exactly what you meant by informal vs formal for that reason: You're referring to a variety of ways of playing within traditional (snare) drumming technique-not two actually separate styles, but different aspects of what is ultimately the same tradition.
Bingo, my friend... That is absolutely correct. It's sometimes easier for a student to not blur the lines when they have terminolgy that separatres things... Helps them focus.
Great lesson!
AR Drummer thank you 🙏
I've use the Moeller technique. I also use other techniques (Open/Close or Push/Pull method and different grips (German, American, French) also. A person owes it to themselves to search any and every method and see what works for them, they also owe it to themselves to study rhythms. It's good to have choices, keep what is good and "can" what is not :-)
Gary E well said... the more tools you have, the easier it is to be musical. Technique is a means to an end... that end is playing music.
Moeller nearly fucked up my doubles cuz I tried applying them to my doubles and got them super fast but defeated the point of double stroke rolls (even notes)
That's something I've been struggling with too. Ive been trying drop catch and Moeller with doubles but I've come to the conclusion that for doubles on toms specifically push pull is the best. I use drop catch for ghosts on the snare and Moeller for highhat grooves. I think every technique has its place on the kit.
Scientifically physics, the stick only moves from the force put on it…..control the force control the stick…..imho
I've been playing drums for over 40 years. I was introduced to Moeller around 10 years ago. After struggling with it for a few months I let it go. Having a teacher say to me that everything I'd learnt over the last 30 years was wrong and I needed to start from scratch felt very demoralising, the insinuation being that I couldn't be a professional player without it. Approach Moeller with caution. I think it's useful in certain settings - ie jazz - but not particularly if you want to play rock like Ringo...
Agreed... it is a tool in your technique Arsenal. Makes it easier and more fluid to execute certain things... but if you don’t develop it... that does not mean that you are not a great player.
I think your teacher was wrong about a couple of things there and I can bring in some of the things Jim Chapin said to help back up my points here. For a start it is not "wrong" to not use the Moeller technique. The Moeller technique is great in my opinion but it is certainly not the be all and end all of drumming - I think it's misguided to think that any technique is. As Chapin says here, "when anybody tells you there's only one way to hold a stick, I would question that very severely." czcams.com/video/QNBn8lnisL4/video.html
If your teacher thought you couldn't be a professional player without it, I think that was also flat out wrong. Chapin certainly didn't think that, listen to what he says here: czcams.com/video/7fcuACyhwD0/video.html
And on the contrary, I would say Moeller is far more useful for rock than for jazz. That whipping motion is perfect for straight 8th grooves, particularly when you have to play loud backbeats. Whereas for jazz its application is limited, especially at quieter dynamic levels. Chapin explains that here: czcams.com/video/u_L--a3UCeA/video.html
Well, 1st off you are SO much better than me BUT may I suggest could the problem have been that you only learnt the möeller technique and practised it only at fast speeds ?
Maybe it was just a case you hadn’t learnt to use it slowly yet?
You mentioned that you used the möeller in your first lesson ONLY when it came to do the solo (i.e. fast) could it be that you put all your previous effort in learning fast & that was the problem?
BeesWaxMinder I did practice it slow just to develop it. You can’t really go from zero to fast with Moeller... the challenge is, when you do get it fast it is all about balance and less about musculature. So the rebound does more work for you the faster you go. As you start slowing down the muscles start to kick in and help. If you don’t have the muscles developed, then that slower gear doesn’t work. So basically it’s fast or nothing. It’s like trying to drive a manual transmission but you only have 4th and 5th gear.
thedrummersalmanac
I see...Thanks!👍
@@BeesWaxMinder Anytime
"Sanford Moeller didn't invent this...this is something he just witnessed, noticed, and wrote down." Very powerful observation yourself, Jay! I certainly have found myself letting revelatory experiences in life pass just by for whatever reason, instead of consciously and deliberately taking the time to distill what I just experienced.
Absolutely... I think we've all done that at some point.
Of course I agree with you on there's not one technique for everything. Keep your eyes open and use any technique that makes it possible to express what you want to say on drums. But I don't agree with your thumbnail for this video!!!
Moellertechnique opened a whole new world when I studied with Claus Hessler back then. I play much more relaxed and opened my mind for all those other techniques and try to combine them...
So to say: USE MOELLERTECHNIQUE if necessary but keep your mind and eyes open =)
Hey Dany... Love your channel BTW. Nice work... Your playing is great and I dig the multicolor heads! ...and I absolutely agree, with you... (and I love Claud Hessler's playing!) Thanks for writing in. The context of the lesson is indeed a warning, (which I think you realized from watching the context of the video.) The warning is not to use the Moeller technique if you ignore responsible muscle building and form. This is what happened to me and it really cost me a lot when I was a young player. I had to do a lot of retcon, spending years correcting muscle memory that was reliant on that whip motion... this was all my fault, and I take responsibility for that. But I have seen other drummers go down that same path... for ex: getting a DVD like secret weapons and ignoring the diligent muscle-building part of it. Using the Moeller method in the absence of solid control and balance can really mess up your playing. So that is the context of the thumbnail... and as a content creator yourself... it adds a little divisiveness. I want drummers, who know this technique well, to click on this video, ready to fight! lol ...and hopefully after seeing the context realizing that I am a strong endorser of the informal style when it's developed the right way. Like Gary Vaynerchuck says "Tell the truth and don't be afraid to be a little controversial."
@@Thedrummersalmanac Heyhey, thanks a lot for your statement. That clarifys something :-) And yah, of course I understand the "marketing" part of the thumbnail... :)
Thanks for your nice comment on my channel!
Keep it up =)
Dany Meyer and you as well, my friend... keep up the great work.
I like the moeller technique with double strokes (I play metal)
I studied with one of Jim Chapin’s students (he was very proud of this - he had a framed photo of Chapin and hi self on the studio wall) and was really enthusiastic to teach me Moeller. I wish he hadn’t - I feel the method is great for military snare drum players, if you want to fill a battlefield or military parade ground. The biggest, by far the biggest complaint I get about my playing is that I am TOO LOUD. I play jazz, I found Moeller requires a big initial input of energy into the accent to get the rebound. Maybe others have mastered it quietly, but personally I found it made me just too damn noisy. Trying to reduce the energy and the volume - then for me it is no longer Moeller, it has become something else…
The danger is not in that technique… it’s in not having balance with all technique.
Great 👍
Thank you 🙏
I try to abuse this method whenever I try to get fired from my band...
Good strategy lol
To me you are taking about one aspect of the moellar…one I honestly never use. The method is great for many other type of patterns besides singles.
From a broad place “Moeller” is summed up by the whip motion and how everything you play stems from that. The aspect I was talking about is the speed that you get. As a young player I focused on that speed over the control and endurance. That’s what hurt me. It was my lack of understanding how Moeller really worked… Which is the message in this lesson.
When you talk about controlling multiple bounce strokes, that is not the Moeller motion technique!!
It is called the “Gladstone method” which is a direct result of Newton’s laws of motion!!
Gladstone… Moeller… informal… what ever you wanna call it… neither Moeller nor Gladstone invented anything. it’s all just different terminology for the same technique. But, Moeller can be broken down to the whip stroke. That is the heart of the Moeller method.
Very good! I am wondering why it does not have some 100 000 views, maybe the title sounds a bit to clickbaity?
Thank you! ...You would think a clickbaity title would inspire more views... not less 🤔
Its not the technique. If you breathe too much when u swim that so you get hyperventilated, it doesnt mean that breathing is a bad technique for your swimming lol.
Agreed.
I do see this even in Chapin and many of the greats. They play with ferocious speed and power, but sacrifice the groove. They obviously can groove too, but they allow themselves to lose it unlike other drummers who stick to rhe grooves.
I agree. I’m a drummer that likes to stick to the groove, and fill for taste/embellishment. Yes they’re great drummers that can groove, but too much flying around. I never liked that in drums. You’re right it kinda loses it.
Chapin could not groove. He was very stiff on a drum set.
In the Chapin video he even says “this is not the technique for all seasons” it’s for power and speed. I like it for one handed triplets
Remember Chapin was a swing guy... I never really thought of him as a groove drummer. A lot of swing drummer don't do great with the groove pocket... it's just not their thing.
I agree with your observations, which could apply to other techniques as well, but since the Moeller is so attractive and produces such noticeable results, and its easy to teach, we focus on this one a lot. I also have found the limitations of Moeller and wanted to have a more even sound, one where every note sounded like '1' rather than hearing the accent required in Moeller that you mention. With any 'technique', learning the technique for its own sake can supersede musicality, and we instead play 'from' technique. I suggest to your viewers that it might often be best to start from a musical idea and then determine the best technique to use to achieve it. Playing from technique makes us technicians instead of musicians. Nicely explained and demonstrated, although I would not blame the Moeller technique itself, but rather the drummer his or herself for allowing the technique to dictate their musical content. The technique itself is not bad, it is becoming too reliant on it by the player that's the problem. Thanks for reading my comment.
cymbalspecialist I couldn’t agree more. That’s beautifully said, my friend. As a tool, Moeller can be very effective when it’s applied musically. Thanks for checking out the vid and the articulate thoughts.
@@Thedrummersalmanac You're welcome. I've found that certain techniques determine what we play, and the music has no, um, music. It's a problem that is far too common among drummers, and seems to becoming an accepted way to play the instrument. I've trained myself to go for sounds and feelings originating either internally or in the musical diaspora of drumming, instead of what comes as a result of playing "proper" technique. Thx for your reply!
Have you learnt it from Frank Bellucci?
I just want to getgood at it for hi hat
Its a great technique to master... for everything on the kit...just so long as you heed the warning in this vid and develop your physicality as well.
Was anybody else told to practice on a pillow when they were learning? Complete opposite of Moeller.
Yes... I've heard Dennis Chambers talk about that... The challenge I have with practicing on a dead surface too much, is... it can screw up your touch a bit. You become so used to overworking for every stroke that you fail to develop the feeling of letting the sticks rebound. Understanding the full stroke and the relationship between striking the drum and accepting/controlling the rebound is one of the most important techniques to develop. Using dead surfaces like pillows is, like you said, the opposite of rebound. The end result is a very physical type of playing where everything is "into the drum" instead of out of the drum via rebound. Just be careful and if you opt to practice with a pillow... try to strike a good balance between practicing on dead surfaces and a rebound surfaces like a rubber pad.
@@Thedrummersalmanac Forget the pillow, we play on drums and a practice pad is the closest you get to a drum. Would trumpet player practice on a drainpipe?
@@farshimelt ...that is a good point.
Moeller certainly isn't a replacement for a solid formal single stroke roll.
I find it confusing when people, as in this video, say the formal method is more the marching style, when Moeller observer this method and lifted it from marching civil war drummers. Hey ho, it's all good if it doesn't hurt and sounds right.
let me try to alleviate some confusion :-) It is true... Moeller did develop this style from witnessing marching drummers... When formal style crosses a certain tempo threshold it becomes, to some extent, informal. It has too... However, Moeller went on to categorize and separate these positions, developing the style into what we now call the "Informal" style. He took what these drummers were doing to achieve speed and power and broke down the mechanics to a study that no one had ever really seen before. He eventually brought this to the drumset with guys like Krupa and Chapin. Modern drum corps, like DCI, remained strict to the formal style and did not adopt elements of the informal style until recently, and it's certainly still not the norm. Hence, why drummers associate the "Formal" style with marching. Can marching drummers utilize informal techniques? Of course... Just as drum set players can utilize the formal... My point in this video is that both should be extensively studied.
@@Thedrummersalmanac indeed. I wasn't confused about the history, I think if I were to rephrase my comment, I'd say: I find it interesting that the DCI/drum corps in the US seems to have suppressed informal for many decades to its own detriment, which is odd considering that its immediate ancestor would have been military/civil war era field drummers. Maybe the drum corps in schools etc suffered the opposite of what many drum kit players suffered, i.e. they avoided informal playing too often or for too long.
I've seen Morello talk about how formal becomes informal at speed, however I still think it's useful to be able to break them down separately. I've seen plenty of formal players never develop any informal movements, so for some people it's helpful to categorise them.
One thing I've noticed many learners do is think that formal had to be very wristy, and that the free stroke can't include much arm or forearm. I've seen plenty of videos of marching guys and even Morello demonstrate a free stroke where the elbow is involved. I think Dom's idea of the "power stroke" is actually quite useful for people who don't naturally open their shoulders when playing louder. A full dynamic range during single and double exercises should cure this, but sometimes the movements just don't appear.
All good stuff. 👍🏼
Thanks for the comment... Awesome observation!
@@Thedrummersalmanac thanks, and thanks for your videos. I've watched a few and they are certainly insightful! :) ☮️🥁
@@jimfarey First off thanks for the kind words and for following. And... it was a great comment. I got the impression that you weren't confused. lol But a student watching the video might be, so this comment thread will be very helpful to them. It's funny because I've had this argument with some of my TikTok followers, who see my vids and immediately jump into the comments saying "TOO MUCH ARM..." ...and when I respond that "using your arm is fine depending on the circumstance and how much you have developed it." ...it turns into WW3 with some of these drum corps guys. One guy got so worked up, he blocked me. lol
Great video. But the amount of changes on the screen was way overboard.
Thanks, Mike... sometimes when I record these things I go on and on and there's like 90 minutes of footage... I end up editing it down, in this case, to 12 minutes... but the result is a lot of cuts. I am trying to learn how to get to my points faster, so it's not so choppy. This is also why I am a drummer and not a filmmaker. lol
thedrummersalmanac personally I like the changes. Keeps the video more interesting.
@@AnotherMonsterAgreed... I like when it moves too... If you watch any commercial, TV show or music video... they are cutting almost every second to second and a half, in say an action sequence. Tutorial vids should probably be a little slower. But as you know, with editing your own vids, some times you don't have a choice and you just need to chop away the fat. Thank,s David! Appreciate the comment... You are kickin' ass BTW. Love your channel.
Clickbait BS. Blaming a techique for your immaturity is like blaming the hammer for a bent nail.
Not exactly, he did a great job on explaining the draw backs of moeller