An Automated 42 Street Shuttle? | Tales From the NYC Subway
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- čas přidán 17. 04. 2022
- Long ago, in an attempt to reduce the labor cost of having Train Operators and Conductors work the trains in the system, automation was tested on the 42nd Street Shuttle. In this video, I go over the events that led up to it, and the demise of the automated shuttle.
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#NYCSubway #TalesFromTheSubway #42StShuttleAutomation - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Automation isn’t slower, the 7 and L have a higher average speed automated than in manual, the shuttle different as it has stub ended terminals with no tail tracks to allow for faster entry into the stations, that’s what slows down automated lines the most, especially when they’re as short as the shuttle.
We've had an automated system here in Vancouver since the 1980s. They run as close as 1 to 2 minutes apart.
Bingo! Vancouver Skytrain shows everyone what transit SHOULD look like... Clean, automated, futuristic compared to the mobile pissbucket that runs around NYC...
There are lots of cities that have automated subway lines, and not just shuttles. In Lyon, France, where I live, there is Line D, a 7.8 mile long fully automated line, serving 15 stations on a northwest-southeast route. During rush hours, there are trains every 90 seconds.
In Paris, there is Line 14, also fully automated, 8.6 miles long and serving 13 stations. This line is being extended to Orly airport with another six intermediate stations; this extension is tentatively scheduled to open in 2024.
Also in France, there are automated subway lines in Lille, Rennes, Marseille and Toulouse, among other cities.
All in all, these automated lines all have one thing in common - they make traffic more fluid because the way they are designed, there can be more trains per hour with smaller gaps.
There's no reason that the entire system can't be 100% automated, and done well. Airports have had automated trains for decades. But like everything with the government, the upfront cost is too high for the bureaucrats even if the long-term savings would be worth it.
Airports have people movers (many of which are newer), not a full fledged subway system, so those are different.
The plan is to continue having at least a train operator to keep an eye on the tracks while the train is moving. No word about conductors as of yet.
@@TheRailLeaguer It's not going to be overnight. But I think once self-driving cars take over, it's going to be the next logical step to automate mass transit.
@@darkwoodmovies Obviously nothing is going to be done overnight.
While it's not impossible to fully automate the system, it's just not a good idea to implement it in CBTC/ATO's current state.
The shuttle is prime for platform screen doors and automated operation. Short run, no change in equipment that will mess with platform screen doors, etc.
Eh- It could only happen when we get the R262s. But yes, it would be a great candidate.
@@MysticTransit Automated R262s? :rartbjart:
I am totally in favour of automation of subways, especially in New York it should be an absolute priority, with the city having very high labour costs. This could allow it to run much more frequently at a lower operating cost.
Combined with platform screen doors it is basically the safest form of rapid mass transit you can get, I live in Vienna where the first automated and platform screen door line is currently being built and I cant wait for it to be opened, The only problem I can see is laying of hundreds of train operators, but that can be solved by having them run the trains till retirement, but then not hiring new ones, the new automated trains in Vienna will therefore have a train operator room in the front still, and I think thats probably the best compromise
You can have automation while having at least a subway operator, at least on some lines. The sole exception would be the 42nd Street Shuttle. Here, the whole line would be automated with no person operating the train in any manner, except for the yard moves that occur every few weeks. The train crew from the shuttle would be reassigned to the 2, 3, 4, and 5 lines.
I remember reading about this! An interesting time indeed.
IRT cars have been tested along Sea Beach many times, the R188s were tested along Sea Beach during their delivery.
I know. I just wanted to make a joke in that section of the video.
@@MysticTransit Oh alr
Automation without a motorman or conductor watching would be dangerous because if something goes wrong then there would be pure chaos and sometimes the kids could end up on the controls, which the R62s already had faulty doors which are easy to kick down, which will excite the foamers a lot
Agreed.
What is the difference between the subway automation they were testing and the automation you see on The JFK Skytrain, Docklands Light Railway, Vancouver Skytrain, etc.
@@robotx9285 the subway actually has cabs that people can screw up the train on, the airtrain and all that do not have cabs and the cars are just for passengers while compters control trains
idk the airtrain works well
@@robotx9285 Those systems are a bit newer as well. One person train ops seems to be the best compromise, especially after what happened last week.
I'd totally be down for this line being automated, it seems like it should be relatively straight forward since it essentially operates in its own isolated bubble outside of yard moves, and I'm sure the 4 train drivers used to run this line would be very well utilized to boost service elsewhere in the system. Well executed modern automation could lead to even faster trip times than manual runs since automatic trains don't need to worry about human error in acceleration and deceleration. Cities like Vancouver provide excellent models for how automated systems can work very well.
The 4 5 6 S lines will definitely be getting CBTCS in the future with the Brand New R262/as for CBTCS. Right now they are definitely working on the F G lines between Church Avenue and Coney island stillwell Ave Brooklyn for CBTC S. And the A C lines also.
I think the best thing to do with automation is to go ahead with automatic train operation and CBTC but with only one person on the train in the operators cab to keep an eye on the tracks, essentially laying off or reassigning the conductor. On the shuttle routes, we can have zero person train operations with the train crews reassigned elsewhere. Its essentially a hybrid between automated train operation and staffing the train.
i would like to hear a video from you about the different types of automation and its pros and cons.
I like that idea. I'll add it to my list.
I agree with you heavily. I'd rather have an experienced operator operating my train, but computers can also be taught different scenarios and how to act accordingly. Even so, they still make mistakes like we do.
Ye there's a chance that there can be kids that would kick down the door and take advantage of the train
Wow! Thanks, awesome vid
Glad you liked it!
The comment about automated subways being slower and less safe than human-operated ones is incorrect, especially for Grade-of-Automation 3 or 4 lines--of which there are none in the NYC subway.
The Vancouver skytrain would beg to differ with your faulty thesis...
The JFK AirTrain was automated from the start and it's problems have been minimal. The only incident on the line was when it was being tested manually by a human. The tech is there. It's politics that has held back implementation in the subway. The fire back on the shuttle was a great example of what the then NYCTA and today's MTA are up against in that regard.
Tech isn't the issue anymore. Many systems globally are automated.
Great Video as always!
While the JFK AirTrain is and has been automated from the very start, it uses different systems than the MTA's Subway. Automation can very well work in NYC, but the MTA just needs to iron out those kinks in the current CBTC system.
@@MysticTransit especially in a limited scope like the Times Square shuttle as attempted half a century ago. It's even more simplified a setup now, easier than something like the air train. That can probably be done with a far simpler system than CBTC since it's just a 2 station, 2 track, back and forth setup.
@@MysticTransit also while JFK AirTrain does use a different system, its rolling stock was designed to be compatible with the LIRR and Subway, as there were various schemes for connecting the two discussed when it was built. Probably will never happen, but they did plan for it as an option.
@@mzxeternal Fun fact: the floor height of the JFK AirTrain vehicles (44") are almost the same as the subway (45.55") but significantly different from LIRR cars (51"). The width, however, matches LIRR cars (10'6") - which is wider than B-division subway cars [and the tunnels they use].
So I doubt compatibility ever existed in the first place. 😅
@@samuelitooooo I know they had the idea in mind of someday being able to link to the LIRR at Jamaica. I guess part of that plan might have been a dedicated platform for airtrain at Penn Station if such a thing was ever done.
Interesting history but i feel like MTA should get help from transit agencies that have automated train from around the world to figure how automation works and how it could be handled before CBTC implementation.
The Flushing and Canarsie Lines already have automated train ops, with the crew in place to keep an eye on the tracks.
I was told point blank at a union meeting that the MTA's long term goal is the total elimination of train crews in the subways. Like you, I'm totally against it.
Yeah, I'm against T/Os & C/Os losing their jobs because of automation, along with the safety issues associated with it.
But why? Eventually they will retire and it will make operations cheaper in the long run and make either fares cheap or extensions more frequent
@@tim333y7 I’m in agreement that getting rid of the human element isn’t wise. A.I like humans isn’t perfect, (granted A.I. is more consistent in terms of efficiency and accuracy) and it’s good to have both in the drivers seat.
Would you be in favour of that if it was combined with a pension roughly equalling wages? Automation isn't just for costs, you can substantially reduce headways and generally improve service with automation plus platform screen doors. And it shouldn't come at the expense of screwing over the existing workforce.
@@tim333y7 y'all wanna get rid of jobs in the city then wonder why people are robbing folks.
I literally made it a point to come down here to specifically look at the ads on the shuttles😂
Another Great Video.
Glad you enjoyed it
How about running the Shuttle like the Glasgow Subway and DLR in the UK where it's ATO Level 3. Shuttle version 4th car is where the Conductor is (UK Terminology Guard) (TSW2 SBB RHB OBB DB Germany Zugführer). If he or she needs to run the train just lift the seat to access the driver controls like Glasgow or DLR 1st & 6th cars. Subway cars of this type need Class 377/1 377/4 gangways half cab for ATO Level 3
Recently some line have not been running as frequently if at all due to not having enough staff. Even if the trains are a tad bit slower, I would take that over having no train at all. Good old b train being as unreliable as could possibly be.
I'm a fan of automation regardless of whether crew is kept onboard or not. (I do think we should move to one onboard crew on fully automated lines instead of two.) The technology today is not the same as five decades ago. CBTC, which literally communicates the precise location of all trains in real time, paves the way for automation nowadays.
You will rarely get an experienced train driver 100% of the time, but automation makes train operation consistent. And I think NYC chose the right systems that allow for faster operation overall on the 7 and L lines - as opposed to, for example, Singapore, which seems to take forever stopping at stations.
(I don't like to bring up JFK AirTrain and the Vancouver SkyTrain because those are proprietary automation systems on proprietary, company-stock train models, which aren't gonna work for the NYC subway system. Unless they build a new line from scratch - *cough* Interborough Express *cough* )
Good job on the video
Thanks!
1:50; what do the initials GRS stand for? Are these initials represent an electric company?
You should do a Mystical Stations video on the 99th street IRT Station. I always look out the window when riding the 1 between 96 and 103. anyway, great video as always!
I don't know about 99th Street. Perhaps you mean 91st Street? That's an abandoned station, and I'm still working out a way to make videos on them.
@@MysticTransit AH yes!! sorry! 91st street, yes.
I was working when ATO started on the IRT. I sincerely hope it has improved in the twelve years since I retired. I know of several instances where trains were given wrong line up. I myself experienced it once when working the Parkchester relays. I was given a clear signal to enter the relay position while a train was already there in plain view. I still have friends at work at NYCT, but I haven't heard of any recent shenanigans with the ATO. Still, I'm a tad apprehensive. Because there have been instances of near rear end collisions in which, had it not been for an alert motorman activating the emergency brake, there would have been collisions, with possible injuries and loss of life.
Thank you for your insight. I am not fully against ATO, but it's the errors that worry me. The system just isn't in an ideal state to activate full Automation.
As a operator of a transit system. Though automation maybe a plus, but you will still need a operator incase of the worst scenarios can occured. Kind of like how would let a tesla with super cruise operate without the driver at the wheel? They are very few accidents with operators these days. I can't speak for the ones who ruined people lives before.
I like this idea it can improve the shuttle
Especially it would give motormen/conductors less hassle to deal with, but they still have to be on the trains in case the automation goes wrong, then they can take over if needed
Yeah, I agree. I think partial automation should be trialed when the R262s enter service, and if that proves successful, maybe we can move to a full automation trial.
I'm just gonna hope the R262s have stronger doors or else the foamers will fall in love with the r262 and start controlling em to their full advantage
I've been waiting for an American Jago Hazard
0:17 that is exactly what my railway looks like in Roblox LOL
The queens blvd line is entirely underground and the weather doesn’t really effect cbtc on the outside section of the L train.
The (L) uses a different type of CBTC than the (7) Line. The Queens Blvd line is a completely different issue, those are just bugs that need to be ironed out.
A little nod to Jago Hazzard at the end, I see.
Glad I wasn’t the only one to have noticed
I'm glad the both of you noticed.
interesting
The thing is, even if automation is less safe, it might make the city overall more safe. If the savings allow the MTA to make the system better as a whole, and thus bring people out of cars, it may reduce pedestrian, cyclist, and driver deaths by much more than any safety cost to the subway system itself.
I think it would be a great idea if we once again connect track 4 of the grand central shuttle from the Lexington av line, running local with the 6 which the 0 operating from Bowling Green to Times Square, giving a good one seat ride from the southern part of the Lexington av line, despite being 6 cars but that will make it a bit more interesting
What happens to the Pelham Line?
@@TMC_BC the Pelham line will not be affected as the 6 train will not change its service because the 6 is fine as what it is and the shuttle will do the Times Square - Bowling Green route, which will not be a shuttle and will need a new route bullet
That is not a good idea, given the crowds on the Lexington Avenue Line during rush hour.
@@m34tgaming16 So you’re running less service on Pelham?
@@TMC_BC nah, I'm gonna let the new line, the (0) train do the times square bowling green and the 6 will keep its current service pattern as Pelham needs the (6), which the route will not change at all except being a little less frequent
Please, MORE FREQUENT videos!
It takes a lot to make these videos. I am genuinely creating them the fastest that I can with all of the outside work I have to do. I am glad though, that you would like to see more videos.
@@MysticTransit I certainly enjoy them. 🥰
5:10; That is a true fact with a better idea for the 42nd. Street Shuttle.
Today's technology should be far better than the 1960's. My concern would be safety, and I don't think unions would like any talk of automation.
W vid
Thanks.
@@MysticTransit np
Train automation is a bad idea in nyc .the nyc is a complex system that needs human decisions and reason .
Agreed.
1:55 totally not foam
I feel like, how can you automate cars if you cant even automate trains. Its probably inevitable, unless the unions can block it.
It's easy to automate trains if you plan it that way to begin with. Not so easy on infrastructure that's already 100+ years old.
We don't need the 42 St Shuttle.
We have the 7 train just for that.
The Shuttle helps relieve congestion off the (7). If we didn't have the 42nd St Shuttle, the (7) would be well over-capacity.
@@MysticTransit Especially after they spent money renovating the whole shuttle for better operations.
@@MysticTransit True True. Now that I think about it.
Also, it keeps passengers from taking long walks to 7 Platform at 42 Street,
A moving walkway and a ring line?
Yep. I know, weird plans.
@@MysticTransit the moving walkway just sounds lazy to me
great video 🤩🤩🤩🤩
Thanks for watching. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Do you wanna work for the mta
Eventually.
may be thay should start runing r188s or r142
The line is getting 24 new R262 cars in 6-car units in a few years.
@@TheRailLeaguer oh i just want to see some r142 on the s train r179s are runing on the rockaway shuttle
For Another Vid Of These Series Try To Do A Vid Of The Damaged and Derailed A Train, On A Nice Afternoon On September 20, 2020 A Motorman ( IDK The Name) Was Operating A Southbound A Train formed of 8 R46 Type Cars, However A Suspect (IDK The Name) Threw A Bunch Of Debris On The Track at Jay Street Metrotech and When The R46 A Train pulled into the Station One Of The Piece Of Debris Hit The Train and Damaged The Front Left Side Of The Train, The Cars that were Involved in the accident were 6062 - 6063, 6060 - 6061, 5876 - 5877 and 5874 - 5875 and All The Cars That Were Involved in the accident were retired and are sitting in the 207th Street Yard Today.
I like the last part of the vlog. Try asking an automated train for information. Just like unmanned toll booths. 👎
Y'all wanna make the entire subway automated and not consider how it'll impact those people who work for the MTA like bro chill. Then yah wonder why so much crime is in the city to begin with. Stop messing with peoples jobs and there money.
why can't NYCTA automate every line?????????????
R142a is coming to the shuttle and ato will return.
Im dying to see the R142as comes to the 42 ND street Times square shuttle. I pray that it happens 🙏
I doubt the R142A will run on the shuttle. It will most likely be 6-car R262s. This is suggested by the number of trains planned for the R262 order.
@@MysticTransit we know that the the Pelham 6 line is getting the brand R262as. I pray that they will bring back the R142as back on the Pelham 6 line once the R262/as comes to replace all the R62AS R62S on the 1 3 6 S lines for CBTCS in the future.
I have a spriital feeling that the 2 train s is gonna wind up getting these R262s I'm telling you. Except for the 7 Flushing line. They definitely need to bring the 8 trains 🚃 back all aswell. The south Bronx is definitely turible. They have no subway 🚇 anymore over there they have 3 Buses BX 15 41 19.
@@leecornwell5632 then the 5 train will share them
I don't believe in full automation in a city like nyc with almost 9 million people in such a small area...too many empty stations in the system at night...what if someone gets sick or a crime happens....and please people don't tell me about systems in China, Japan and Europe who usually have police or other personnel in almost every station.... most lines in London don't even operate after 1am while we have trains operating 24hrs
The court ruling on masks didn't take long to trickle down to passengers, how many unmasked people did you notice?
Not many.