Does Ford's New Dual Fuel Injection 3.5L Ecoboost Engine Really Fix the Carbon Build Up Issue?
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- čas přidán 28. 08. 2024
- In this video we show you how well Ford's dual fuel injection system works to alleviate carbon buildup issues on the 2nd generation 3.5L Ecoboost engines.
#ford #fordf150 #ecoboost
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It would be awesome to see Gen 1 valves on a vehicle that had catch cans installed from the beginning of its life.
A way to drastically slow down the carbon on the gen 2 ecoboost engines are 4 things firstly and most importantly run a good high quality synthetic oil no Motorcraft simi synthetic crap. second is run a fuel system cleaner once in a while like berrymans B12 or seafoam. Third is use the remote start and let idle 10 mi or so before u head to work in morning. At idle especially cold starts the port injection is spraying if u have a good fuel system cleaner in there u are basically cleaning the back of the intake valves. forth and almost as important as good oil is catch can! Just some things i have found out from research and mechanics and other ecoboost owners. If u do these things your truck will be in junkyard worn out before u have to worry about carbon. great video
I've got a 2012 5.0L F-150 that some years ago, I put air/oil separators in the emission system. When I change engine oil, I clean both oil catch cans and one is about three quarters full and the other is about a third full. I couldn't believe that much oil would be put through the intake into the engine. I remove the throttle body about 35,000 miles just to check the intake manifold for oil. It's clean.
Thanks! I have a 07 F150 5.4 3v that I love. And I don't know if I ever want to get rid if it, so I take as best care of it as I can myself, and use my local Ford Dealership where I purchased it. I wish I could give you more as you have saved me so much money in diagnostics and repairs. So thank you! I trust you so much, I hope you value that trust as much as I do. Happy Holidays to you, your apprentice son and rest of family.
I have a 2006 5.4 3v with 269,879 miles and feel the same way. Absolutely love my truck.
Same here….my 2005 F-350 V10 has 266,000 miles and still idles like it’s brand new.
Same here, mines an 04 FX4, already went through an engine, Ford manufacturer replacement reman, after seeing this, Ecoboost will not be in my future
08 5.4 4x4 256,000 😎💪👍👍🤙
I would say, based on this video, the added port injection does better than 50% as you state - maybe 75% reduction in build up. Nonetheless, I really appreciate that you did this comparison. I think I still want to install a catch can since I cannot see selling this vehicle for a very long time. Thanks again.
So based on this video he made, direct fuel injection is actually worst than port fuel injection right?
I know for sure that direct fuel injection makes the piston face cleaner from the amount of PSI it’s thrown at but I didn’t know that direct fuel injection made that much carbon build up behind the valves.
@@edforthewin8574 Direct injection does not clean the back of the valves at all. Port injection does
@@thomasnew8606 ok thank you sir!
Brian did my timing chain, walnut blast, and cooling system flush. Runs like a Beast again; I installed a Full Race Eco-Beast intercooler kit with TurboSmart BOV. Runs like a champ again.
When did you get your timing chain replaced? I didnt think these trucks needed a replacement and it should last well into 200k+ miles. Is that not true?
2019 2.7 at 42,000 miles here, good to see the improvements with the dual injection! Thanks for making this video!
Wait til that oil pump grenades
First gen Ecoboost customer traded in. 5k oil changes, full synthetic. Drove perfectly, no major maintenance was done to the truck, no intake cleaning. 200k miles.
Wow Mr. I really love your show, I'm not a "FORD" guy, but have many of friends who are, and I do relate your channel to them! Thanks so much!
I've ran a UPR catch can on my 14 ecoboost since 32k miles and have always ran top octane prem fuel through it. It does catch alot of blow by and the engine runs great, it currently has 107k miles on it. I always follow your videos and keep fluids clean and just changed my tranny lines based on your videos. When it's time to work on the engine I'll be bringing it to you.
Dang does this mean I need to load up my catch can on my wife's Gen ii ecoboost?
This is nothing new, especially on certain German brands (read VW). I want to know why a 2019 with 125k on it needs a timing job? Is this a $5k job with new phasers as well? Should I get the damn internal water pump done at the same time? Or just sell my beloved truck and get a slower, less potent 5.0? Damn it, Ford.
@@Dragandspinn 5.0s have cam phaser problems too as well as oil consumption. Now that they have cylinder deactivation, that's a hard no from me. I'd rather deal with ecoboost issues.
Great channel. Thank you for the excellent content. I have a theory. Manufactures have increased the mileage intervals on oil changes to as much as 10000 miles. I believe that even good full synthetic oil starts to break down slowly at first but after additives have expired then much more rapidly. When the oil is new there should be less evaporation. As heat and miles accumulate.The oil condition and additives begin to diminish. By changing the oil and filter every 3000 miles. The oil is still in excellent condition. Very little evaporation has occurred. The less evaporated oil gas entering the intake through the E.G.R. system. This should translate to less carbon build up.Also the anti-wear , heat , viscosity ect. additives are still very active. This will also help with all that timing assembly friction and wear. Whenever I see the inside of an engine that has a brown or dark film the oil has already began to fail.
Now this is the kind of content that's worth watchin.
Would love to see this same type of video on the 5.0. The fueling strategy probably matters too, I know on the 5.0 it relies mostly on port injection under idle and most load conditions, but the DI system is used for efficiency and knock prevention. Not sure how the 3.5 does it, although it probably relies more on the DI system since it's running boost. Port velocity also probably plays a role, those gen 2 intake ports are very deep.
The port injection is only used on cold start or until the engine reaches optimal temperature then it only uses DI. Ford honestly only did this to improve the EPA rating they don't care about the carbon build up....
@icyhotmike fairly sure that's not the case on the 5L, I remember seeing the fueling tables and the most it can do is 90% DI, but it has different circumstances where port comes back on. The 3.5 is likely different because it's boosted
I think I'd rather have port injection all the time and DI can kick in when power demand is high.
Plenty of changes on the 5.0 in recent years.
@@ice44567 to
It's amazing to me the more engineers try to redesign the wheel, the more square it gets. How many motors over 12 years old are still running good without any major work have been done to them, as long as good detergent gasoline was used and yearly maintenance was done. (It's my '06 f160 xl with 4.6 ,165,000 miles still runs like the day I bought it) Oil change every 5,000 miles, STP fuel system cleaner every 3rd Oil change. Had 100,000 miles service. K&N air filter gets cleaned every 25,000 miles. When spark plugs were replaced for 100,00 miles maintenance, they looked almost brand new. Bought truck to take me to nursing home or grave eventually.
It all in their effort to achieve slight fuel mileage gains and cleaner air. I'd gladly accept previous technology and save the thousands of $$ we waste today. Check out any Ford two-valve 4.6 and see how the hundreds of thousand miles they can crank out and not require anything but common sense maintenance. PS Meant to add that I've had two Town Cars with well over 300k miles each and never needed to open them up, except for the damn plastic intakes that puked coolant (Dorman to the rescue). These were the pre-phaser debacle days! Ford's timing/cam engineers fell asleep beginning with the 4.6-5.4/3-valves and phasers still don't last.
The point is, they are not designed to last anymore. They are designed to fail just after your loan is paid off so you go back to the dealer and buy another one.
The only consistent design with any manufacturer nowadays, is their business design to keep you in a revolving door of debt with them.
So what you mean,is the old Italian tune-up won't help, cause at wide open thottle,it's only running direct injection,then idle and drive like old lady you run on port injection.carberaters clean valves better,where is technology going
@@michaelbefumo-qg7jinah I still boost once a month when a dodge hemi or toyo want to pick a fight. The see the f150 red tailgate every time
well the f160 was a better made truck than the f150
Wow, you just totally convinced me to get an oil catch can for my 22 F150 with 20,000 miles
My 11 F150 3.5 had 195k miles with no catch can and runs as good as the day I bought it new. I’ve gone through misfire issue with plugs and have drilled the intercooler pipe condensation relief hole. Overall been a great truck using Mobile 1 synthetic 4-8K with wix filters.
Have friends with over 200K with no issues also. “Will have drivability issues”……”lucky to get 150K without changing timing chain”
Those absolute statements can lose credibility. Yes many trucks have those issue but…..
Keep up the great content just wanted get my 2 cent out.
Thanks
Thanks for sharing this. I have a DI BMW and had huge carbon buildup issues. So I installed a Snow Performance water/methanol system to keep the valves clean. The extra boost in power is nice too!
What mixture are you running?
I used Peak Brand -30* windsheild washer fluid for years on a turbo LS engine. Then I started adding a quart of M1 methanol to 1 gallon of the Peak and turned the boost up. When I pulled the heads off 330,000 miles later the intake runners, valves and pistons looks new but had a blue tint from the dye in the WWF.
@@nocturnalspecialties642 50/50 by weight not volume. Meth is lighter than water. I get straight methanol from a performance shop in town and mix it with distilled water.
@@superk4562 cool.
I didn't get technical with it. Just started using straight WWF that MSDS showed to be 38% methanol. It did really good but wanted a little extra for when pushing the boost higher. I never calculated what adding 1 quart of M1 to that mixture was.
@@nocturnalspecialties642 You can always buy Boost Juice from Snow Performance.
I would really like to see a comparison of 2 similar truck one with a catch can and one without to see how much of a difference they really make.
No need I can tell you now it only cuts it in half.
@@FordTechMakuloco good to know, thanks. glad I put one on my raptor when it was new.
I love your show, thank you. I currently own a 2016 F150 3.5 ecoboast 100,000 miles. Recently I have been experiencing 2 limp mode alarms; "Hill Descent Control Fault & Service Advance Trac" I took it to a transmission shop and his scanner read the following: Codes #1- U3013 ABS control module input power C. #2- U0401invalid data received from ECM/TCM. The transmission shop sent my vehicle to a general mechanical shop and they found 3 pins on different connectors with corrosion, 1- right rear tail light, 2- rear camera and 3- the main harness going to the rear. I was not experiencing any issues with lights or camera. It's been a week since I got my vehicle back and the same limp mode reoccurred 6x's. I seems to occur when the drivetrain is not up to optimum temperature i.e.like backing out of the driveway 1st thing in the morning, after that everything is fine. Any ideas? Merry Christmas, Ben
Perhaps adding BG platinum fuel system cleaner on a regular basis may enhance the beneficial effects of the port injection. Merry xmas Brian and family. Best regards from Australia.
Two things will cut this issue down. Quality fuels being introduced to the engine and a catch can. It isn’t perfect but it certainly cuts the carbon deposits down significantly. All of my vehicles run on “top tier” fuels and each have a catch can. Zero drivability issues. This video is an excellent demonstration of the different gens of ecoboost and what improvements they may or may not exhibit. It’s why I follow the channel and look forward to more great content!
Top tier fuels are a scam. Even cheap gasoline has the ability to clear tar off of hands…
@@dogewisdom9921 if you say so 🤷🏻
I wouldn't be surprised if people using conventional oil really makes this much worse...
@@HouseCallAutoRepair ... oh, absolutely. The keys here are TOP Tier fuel, full synthetic oil, regular 5k oil changes, and adding a fuel injection cleaner every oil change. Will certainly help this issue.
How does injector cleaner and top tier fuel help with preventing carbon in a DIG motor?
Many years ago I drove a fuel delivery truck. The fuel that's delivered to every station: Convenience stores or name brand stations all come from the same nearby fuel terminal. The terminal is either supplied by the owner of the onsite refinery or by pipeline. When you loaded your truck with gasoline for delivery, there was a selector switch that you operated to add an additive for a particular brand. Sometimes the selector worked, most of the time it didn't. So don't be fooled. Gasoline is gasoline and diesel is diesel no matter where you buy it.
As a private tech for twenty years in Salt Lake City I see the difference between fuels. I run my 4Runner on chevron premium, after 162,000 miles still very clean. I’ve done walnut valve blasting on cars with less that 100,000 miles that were almost completely clogged, they really needed a valve job but the owners don’t want to pay for it. They trade them as soon as they leave my shop.
When you drive down the highway and see an Exxon refinery, or any other refinery, or terminal. Semi trucks load up there and deliver to all stations in that area. It doesn't matter if you buy fuel at at Chevron, Exxon, Mobil, Shell, Kwik Shop, or whatever, they're all supplied by the nearest terminal. The only way fuel will be different, is if you put additives in your tank from an autoparts store.
I'm not trying to discourage anyone from buying their favorite brand of fuel, I'm only telling you what I know first hand. NCRA refinery in McPherson, KS, which is near us, supplies all name brand and convenience stores, including Chevron, Cenex, CO-OP, Phillips 66, Kwik Shop, and Dillon's fuel stop in our area. All gasoline and diesel must have certain additives like detergents required by law. Those additives change during winter and summer as needed.
No it is not all the same, this can all be seen reviewing data logs and tuning.
The additives is what makes the difference.
Not all stations are getto like yours.
Thanks for posting. I just traded a 2011 Gen 1 F150 EB for a '22 F150 EB. I wondered how well the new dual fuel system worked. You answered my main question at the end, which is how/when does the engine switch between systems. Port injection at idle / low power makes sense because that's when most of the PCV gunk is likely to come through.
I'm so glad you shared this info... My 2017 is at 158k and now needs its second timing job with phasers. (And neither has been under warranty...WTF??) You can rest assured I'll insist on the new phasers you showed a few videos ago. Thanks again, and Happy Holidays to you and yours !!
Wow, these engines are pure garbage. I wonder what will it take yo get rid of this truck
@gianfrancoa love the power with the turbos... and 21 mpg. This is the only problem I've ever had with the truck in 158k. Pisses me off, but it's still a good truck 😊
Just curious, how often do you change the oil and what oil and filter do you use?
@Ray S I'm religious with maintenance ! usually every 3k... never over 4.
Platinum synthetic oil and Fram ultra syn
Filters.
The wife's truck is a 2014 150 with the 5.0.... use the same in hers, and that just hit 240k. That motor has never made a tick sound... ever !!!
@@davidfeinberg5599 I'd stick with the Motorcraft oil filters and avoid Fram. Lots of info out there regarding anti drain back.
Glad I'm running a catch can! Still love my old school multi port 302. Merry Christmas Brian.
Catch can is meh at best, takes out maybe 10% of the carbon. If the stock 3.5 eb at 100k is 100%, installing the catch can would remove 10%, to 90%, and the new 3.5 eb would have 50%, with a catch can, you’re at 45%. Not worth the 3-500 investment in a good set up
Its better than nothing...it catches quite a bit and looks nasty. I run Mobil 1 and it gets changed ever 5k religiously.
@@garypollack6948 Gary, to be really sure you are doing everything possible, change your oil once a week and get your church to pray for your vehicle every Sunday .
@@garypollack6948 I feel the same. Anything I can do within reason to help limit the amount of potential buildup. We also use full synthetic and change every 5k. So far so good. I’m also not sure where that 10% figure is pulled from. Our catch can sees about 1-3oz every 5k.
That’s an amazing amount of carbon on both, but it’s definitely better on Gen 2.
I’d love to see my 5.4 valves look like.
I have a '13 F150 EB with 88k, about a year ago removed the intake and manually cleaned all twelve valves. Used picks, screw drivers, conical brushes, brake cleaner, CRC GDI intake valve cleaner and a hand actuated vacuum pump with inline reservoir. Only real thing to pay close attention is to operate only on valves that are completed seated/closed. I chalk this up as normal high mileage maintenance. Much like transmission fluid, trans case, diff, etc. I got fantastic results. Post clean I would estimate the state would be equivalent to a truck with 5k miles. Only area that was difficult to access on the valves was toward the engine centerline. The head design and seat slightly shrouds the valves on a very small portion nearest the engine centerline. Wish I could post a picture here, the before and after are pretty impressive to compare.
thanks Ford Tech Makuloco for well done investigative report. The saga of so called "better ideas" automotive engineering continues. Built in power train life limitations and the still weak link of needing timing jobs so soon makes these Ford power plants a real dog! People advocate catch cans as a solution, but I have to wonder just how much of the bypass volume they effectively remove. I do not know of any well done tests to determine the actual flow volume of bypass and how much of that material is actually trapped and removed from reentering the intake. My suspicion is that very little of the bypass is removed. I suspect the biggest effect of the catch can is that it makes the vehicle owner feel good, but is not really that effective.
Do the new f150 ecoboosts need timing jobs still?
Your videos keep getting better.
Thank you for the examples especially the port injection!
Thanks for making this video and sharing with us. I have a 19 2.7 f150 with 55k and wasn't sure about installing a catch can but this is telling me it certainly wont hurt. Thanks again.
Excellent video for those of us who are curious. Most people dont have a clue. I have a 3rd gen 3.5 D4S 3.5 tacoma 2021 30 k. We'll see in the future on this engine.
Thanks for the information. I don't have a Ford EcoBoost but I have a KIA Sorento with a similar setup. That look into the intake port is more than enough of an example on the effectiveness of the dual injection setup.
If it weren't for the FRP and FLP PIDs as well as the high and low fuel system tests, these would suck to diagnose. I've had a lot of new 2.7s with injector issues, some port and some direct. This helps alot in diagnosing this weird system.
What years
I have a 2014 F150 3.5L ecoboost with 167,000 miles on it now. I have no idea what the valves look like, but all I can say is (so far) it still runs great, idles smoothly and pulls strong. Pedal to the floor and boom, away you go (can't do it from a stop because it'll just spin, but you know ;-)) Hoping it stays running well. I do plan on cleaning the throttle body next year when it warms up (never been done) but like I said, it's still idling smoothly...but I wanted to do it anyway since it's easy to get to and probably should be done anyway, even though it's still idling smooth. I run full synthetic name brand oil, ford oil filter, I regularly use Hot Shot Secret stiction eliminator with the FR3 friction reducer. For me, so far so good. Runs great.
Glad your truck is running great, what region of the country do you live in? just trying to get a feel for the atmospheric conditions affecting the engines.
@@andysecorod9952 near Cincinnati
I've got a 2013 3.5L with over 170,000 km. It runs great and I don't think it's had any cam phaser issues. It seems like the Gen 2 has more cam phaser issues than Gen 1 from what I've been reading....
Do you notice the hot shot secret stiction eliminator benefiting the truck?
@@gabbygonzaga552 all I can say is that it still runs like new with just over 181,000 miles on it. The only thing I’ve had to do to the engine of any significance was replace all the coils but after 170,000 miles on them, I think I got my moneys worth out of the factory coils. Anyway, I do believe that product keeps the bearings clean in the turbos and other areas of the engine which helps keep everything lubricated. The frustrating thing is it still runs like new but I started hearing the timing chain/cam phaser rattle on start up occasionally after it had been sitting a little while and I’m sure that’s related to the known issue with the timing change stretch. I will keep putting that off until it truly becomes a problem but it’s a shame because that’s the only thing so far that would cause a lot of major work and expenses
I used the intake cleaner for direct injection on my 2012 3.5 eco boost. A buddy has a 2012 3.5 and it was running rough. We used some intake cleaner for direct injection and let it set for a few minutes. We took it for a ride and that thing did everything but run right for a couple miles. Missing, spitting check engine light flashing, coughing. After a couple miles light went out and ran totally smooth. It’s evident to me it hadn’t been cleaned in a while. I did my 2012 every 30,000 miles and I sold a strong 3.5 at 180,000 miles. Only time the engine had a wrench on it was when I did a antifreeze flush and got the water pump leaking. Never a fuel system problem.
That Sir was a great demostration of the clear difference in those types of fuel systems. Thank you!
When i was young a valve job was a standard maintenance service , most shops had a valve grinder. If you made it past 50k miles you were doing great. The buildup on the valves meant standing at the wire wheel a good amount of time. We have come a long way.
You also needed to take the plugs about every 1500 miles and have them sandblasted at the local garage. Back then it was due to the leaded gas we used.
@@wdbressl Yup , i remember Zellers used to sell reconditioned spark bolts. lol Back then we did not just throw things away. Today plugs are much harder to access so if you go in just replace while your there.
Wonder how much the reconditioned spark bolts cost back then?
@@s60t5M Ha my memory is not that good, it was 40 yrs ago but probly half of a new set. They were cleaned and filed and gapped. My dad had a shop back then and like most we had a spark plug tester and cleaner sold by champion.
The root cause is the cam timing causes the intake valves to open up as the engine is on the end of the exhaust stroke. This pushes exhaust back up the intake to be drawn in and burned again. This is how the automakers got rid of the EGR systems on engines. We can thank the EPA for all of the carbon build up issues on DI engines.
Actually it's the PCV putting blowby into the intake.
@@hotrodray6802 that's what I think.
I agree with you about the mechanical cause of that carbon build-up but the EPA shouldn't be blamed for promoting clean air. Look towards profit-driven manufacturers that short-circuit testing programs and underfund engineering departments. They sell ill tested designs and then, look elsewhere when, more than often, their gamble backfires. Regards !
@Daniel Robert the buyers that are early adopters are the testers. Lol
Damn the EPA for giving us cleaner air and water. Selfish SOBs. Sounds like Ford is to blame with poor engineering standards.....
Thank you for the comparison. I have had both variations and currently own a 2019.
A 2019 that needs a timing chain at 125,000 miles? Dang, I guess I need to get one put in; I have 450,000 on mine. Great video!
I am curious about this as well. That seems awfully early. I thought chains last life of vehicle or at least 200-300k miles
I would be interested to see how the borescope bares out the same results for the 3rd Gen Coyote with dual injection. With not having forced induction, there may be less blowby causing the issue. Also compare with a same engine using a catch can.
So the coyote 2019 has the dual injection ? My friend? Is that’s the case im good 👍
That's why it's of great consideration to get an air oil separator where the oil drains back to the crankcase and it's kept out of the intake... The crankcase ventilation system has a lot to do with the buildup and The port side injectors aren't fired enough to help keep the carbon from building up. Also the EGR is placing exhaust that hasn't been cleaned through the catalytic converters first before drawing the exhaust into the intake manifold. Toyota and Lexus have it right in firing both port and direct injection during idle, cruising and light load situations. Ford, GM and FCA need to follow suit with what Toyota / Lexus is doing with the D-4S dual injection setup. The same could be said for Subaru since Subaru is owned by Toyota.
Toyota and Lexus did it right for both direct/port injection fires together during lite to moderate load, cruise speed and direct during hard acceleration, but they should've did both during hard acceleration as well...Ford should've programmed for both direct/port injection to fire during hard acceleration to avoid excessive carbon buildup or buildup period from taking place.
What I meant to say was: "The crankcase vent system has everything to do with carbon buildup in the intake system".
@@carsten4594 The EGR is a part of it too
It's a shame we can't dump the crankcase vent directly into the exhaust system.
@@carsten4594 So realistically how much will a catch can help? I'm looking at a Ford 3.0l and I don't think they have dual inject on it.
Being Ford guys ourselves we enjoy watching the channel and Merry Christmas to you and your family along with all your viewers from Jake and i at Eliminator Performance have a great New Year and everyone stay Safe and Sound.
Excellent, thanks for posting this comparison ! I own a dual injection vehicle, but I am a low mileage driver.
The important thing for low milage driving is getting the oil heated up enough to blow out condensation but also changing the oil sooner rather than later.
Thanks for the comparison video. Very helpful, and somewhat encouraging that dual injection offers some relief. Welcome your opinion on how well religious frequent oil changes (5000 miles) would help avoid carbon build up (due to oil not breaking down as much) vs. long oil change intervals.
Merry Christmas.
Changing oil is about as good as changing your socks. Too bad there are no magic bullets for carbon buildup. But if you use that really expensive purple oil and go to church every week you can pretend
I have a 2018 Silverado 5.3 gdi just had it apart to replace a failed lifter at 137k miles. Very little carbon buildup. Mechanic said it looked really good. Used on a farm hard use and dirt roads a lot. Replaced air filters and oil often. Oil changes at 4-5000 miles Napa filters. Shorter oil change intervals help. The bad lifter didn’t damage cam. Lifters replaced and continue driving.
Crappy corn gas (ethanol) is hard on oil and makes carbon problems worse.
Religious oil changes are essential for the VCT system (timing) and will help prevent leaks and other carbon problems, but won't help much with this design of engine.
De-carbon services are going to be required periodically. My techs are recommending every 30 to 40K miles.
Using high QUALITY fuel will help, such as Chevron/Texaco. If you can find a station that sells non ethanol fuel, that would be ideal. It's amazing how much better the engines run on gas with no ethanol.
@@justinvanderkooi3604 Kind of low miles for a bad lifter.
@@georgeburns7251 Haha! do you even hear yourself? Changing oil is everything! And yes regardless of what the manufacturer says you should never go over 5000 miles no matter what oil you’re using.
Any mechanic will tell you there are multiple issues you can avoid by changing your oil regularly.
And you should also change your socks regularly!
Hey great info, appreciate it. Question - What is the root cause of the carbon buildup? Specifically, would an oil catch can prevent the carbon build up?
And will an oil catch can void the warranty? Apologies if this has already been discussed.
Look at the valve stems. Almost nothing on the gen 2 engine, where the gen 1 was covered in a huge layer. Much improved.
142k TUNED miles on my 17 F-150 3.5. Runs like a champ.
Thanks, great information as always!
Do you recommend any type of fuel additives or cleaners for the 2nd generation that may help with the build-up?
I looked into this exact thing Berrymans B12 chemtool is a really good fuel injection/valve cleaner u put a can into the fuel tank every so often. Also use your remote start in morning and let it idle 10-15 min before u head out when its idling it uses port injection spraying on the intake valve and with the B12 it will make them squeaky clean!!
Thats good that they are making progress, hopefully they will learn from this and continue to improve the cleaning system. My Dads 22 Tacoma has a similar setup that is just for cleaning the valves, will be interesting to see how his does after 100k.
I have a GS 350 AWD which is a Tacoma in a Sedan. I would almost like to pull the intake and see, I am a bit above 100K.
And the frame
@@muttomaki1 Frame issues on Toyota have been solved awhile ago. If you're going to be an ass, why not attack GM for their APM and their shitty torque converters.That problem is still ongoing from 2009 to today.
Well there's only going to be so much improvement as fossil fuel burning engines are mostly ending development, with some carmakers having already stated they're not developing any new internal combustion engines ("ICE" as the nerdy folks like to say). So don't really matter much after this. Great that dual injection solves this, but how much longer it's going to be a problem for new cars, is another story.
@@rolandm9750 basically we are in big trouble, the government is finally going to ruin the auto industry
Every Ford Engineer should watch your videos.
I find this really interesting as a VW guy. There used to be a ton of speculation that the VW euro fueling strategy (port and di simultaneously) would help our own domestic VW's with carbon buildup. The blanks for port injectors are just sitting right there on every US VW intake manifold, although they mostly get used for methanol injection by tuners and not gas here in the states. Then I heard otherwise from an industry engineer, her explanation was that it was purely a euro emissions compliance tech in practice, and that if there was a carbon effect it was minor enough not to be why it was used. For VW's part their most recent DI revision (2015 on the GTI to start) put a hollow sleeve around the balance shaft with large holes in it. They route oil vapor through that en route to the PCV, which slings the larger oil concentrations away from the potential intake stream and back into the engine. It's not perfect based on my last look into my wife's GTI, but she's at 170+k miles on her 2016 GTI, with no cleanout, and there's no idle or driveability issues as of yet. I don't think I've ever seen a previous gen 2.0T from them get past 90k without severe buildup so that is clearly working for them on some level.
My 5.7 hemi is an old ass dinosaur but there is no dirty valves issues, turbo failures or timing phaser problems. Just have to use good synthetic 5w30 and avoid idling.
Great video as usual, thank you. I was aware of this from early on on my 2011 f150 3,5 eco boost. I maintained it very well and put a lot of cross country highway miles on it. I made sure it got warmed up on every use by consolidating trips. I traded it in after 210,000 miles this past summer. It still ran great but want to continue to travel in my retirement. I was always amazed at the torque and towing power of a little over 200 cubes a few times grossing 11-12000 lbs Ohio to New Mexico. Thanks for your channel.
2018 Ford F150, 2.7 L, 185,000 miles The only thing that has been done engine wise is three injectors on the right side oil changed every 5000 miles running whatever gas is cheapest.
I have an Ecoboost with 200k miles. I use an oil with a really low volatility and I do the CRC direct injection cleaner myself every 50k miles. I’ve had absolutely zero issues the valves stay exceptionally clean. It seems like a really good “true” synthetic oil keeps the intake valves much cleaner because it evaporates much less. Also a catch can really helps as well.
Great video Brian. Thanks for the triple comparison. I have walnut blasted my 2013 twice now at 120k km (not miles) and run a catch can now after the second round. I expect a third round this summer, but hope not.
How much did that cost you?
@@tslonaker4609 $50 CAD for a 50 lb bag of walnut shell media, $26 for a cheap media blaster that I modded. I already had a good compressor, shop vac, safety PPE and a BUNCH of patience and research on how to do it correctly and eliminating the risk of filling the engine with walnuts. It’s work for sure.
So, watching this about a minute in seeing him scope the 1st gen 3.5 EB I had a sudden sinking feeling. I missed a golden opportunity to clean my intake valves last summer when I did a timing job on mine (Thanks, FMM, by the way, other than taking me a week because I'm an engineer, darnit, not a mechanic! - the directions were great). Sigh. Oh well.
Always entertaining while on lunch break
I'm very interested to see valves on a dual-mode injected engine when it's been run on E85. I have a 2019 5.0 F150 and run a couple tanks of E85 every few months to try and keep carbon buildup to a minimum.
From the engines I've seen in the shop that were run on E85, it's not good. They look like they have been running for many hundreds of thousands of miles.
But, I haven't seen a 5.0 yet.
I’ve seen a Mazdaspeed L3 the same as 2.3 but no vvt on exhaust. No catch with egr running meth at the TB still pretty nasty but better. Also seen with cans no egr 4 extra port running e30 mix stay cleaner. Then again both fuel systems run at same time with split fuel controller.
Make sure you always run 20 mins plus after fill, oz tuning is the way to go performance and reliability check out omegax flex fuel tune
My gen 3 Coyote runs somewhere between 70%-85% Ethanol all the time. Only time it uses 100% Unleaded is after oil changes per recommended by Ford. I bet anything everything is clean as can be. I have seen other engines opened up that ran E85 all the time and there was no carbon on anything. I'm talking they looked brand new. The only thing you need to worry about with Ethanol is water and the corrosion from it. So long as the Ethanol doesn't get old in the car it should be a non issue. Also, it will break down the oil a alot faster. Even thought my car takes 10 quarts of oil to combat oil breakdown i change it every 3 months regardless. I only put like 1 or 2k miles on it in that time but better safe than sorry. I also use the best full synthetic oils.
stop using that crap/
The 2019 with 125k miles obviously had more rural/highway use which alone may have reduced carbon build up. Getting rid of direct injection completely and putting the camshaft(s) back in the block sure would make for much higher reliability and probably 300k miles before any major engine work would be required. I believe overall carbon footprint would be as good or better too if you consider everything.
direct is a power adder but pollution adder too so EPA should ban it or regulate it for that.
@@jamesmedina2062 They do regulate emissions, the entire reason the dual fuel system exists to to help with soot emissions.
Thank you Brian, this is by far the best informative channel that I've found. Appreciate you so much!
I really appreciate you doing these videos and informing people of the potential issues they may run into.
This is terrible on Fords part to be selling crap like this. With the amount of money we pay for these things ford should offer better. Really thought that these 3.5 engines had gotten much more reliable, clearly not. This motor while it preforms very well, is just to problematic for me. Can't understand why ford continues to sell this kinda stuff and why they continue with the cp4 pump in their diesel line when there is better more reliable options out there. Have been looking pretty hard at the newer expeditions. Anything with any ecoboost motor will be off the table for me. Ford would be smart to have the 5.0, or 7.3 as an option in the expeditions. Shamed to say the GMC yukon with the 6.2 is number 1 on my list, and probably the only option at this point. Don't know who is making all these decisions at ford, but their idiots And should be fired.
That 6.2 is GDI. It will look like that 1st motor he showed after 100k miles.
So, while the dual injection system somewhat works, would the recommendation be to run Techron more often like every third or fourth tank of gas. This video has really emphasize the need of utilizing an oil catch can. Your thoughts!
I think any top tier fuel will have a good additive package. But in DI engines there simply isn’t much getting back onto the back sides of the intake valves. Catch cans are helpful. I pull 1-3oz every oil change and at 50k our DI 2.0T still looked fine, I’ll have to check again when it hits 100k (20 to go).
Techron is a great product, it is patented, and the only additive that cleans Sulphur from the fuel system.
I just always go to Chevron or Texaco since it already has Techron in it. There are other "top tier" places around but in fuel quality testing we've had to do in the shop over the years, those other top tier stations far exceed the allowable ethanol percentages.
Great video Brian! I'll be honest - I'm still a bit disappointed with carboning on that 2nd gen Ecoboost. That said, it's still better than nothing. Maybe Ford needs a new fuel curve map where it runs strictly on the port injection for a day a couple of times a year? I'd be willing to put up with some reduced power mode if it meant reducing de-carboning costs down the road. I know it's may be a bit irrelevant with a timing chain replacement at the 100-150K mark anyways, but it'll still save labor and materials cost when needed.
BTW - Happy Holidays and a Merry Christmas to you and your family and the viewers!
I was thinking something similar... perhaps switch to 2 pulses of the port fuel injector for every one pulse of the GDI injector. That should cut the carbon buildup to roughly a third of the Gen 1. Of course it would sacrifice a bit of fuel economy/power.
I monitor DI vs FI rates on my 2019 3.5 f150. At low load, it primarily runs port injection. At warm idle, low speed cruising and light acceleration, it uses almost entirely port injection. At highway speeds, it uses 40-80% direct injection. It is always using the port injectors at least somewhat.
The 2nd gen 3.5 is primarily port injected and adds DI as needed. Fuel system cleaners DO work to clean the valves. If you want to reduce valve buildup, start using techron additive or another fuel system cleaner with PEA.
Likely a commuter vehicle. The trucks need heavier use to do what they need. More load equals more fuel equals cleaner valves.
I haven’t even received my 2023 f150 yet and have a catch can waiting to be installed. I found out by experience that techtron additive in a half tank of fuel will clean your injectors. Also any fuel that you store in cans should have a ounce or two of Startron added to it. I’ve been doing it for over 10-12 years and have no issues with ethanol in my lines or carbs with seasonal equipment.
Thanks for great study case supported with technical evidence. your field experiences are
impressive.
Hope your son will value your knowledge and give a 1000 percent support. it will benefit him
for his entire life. Happy New Year to you and your family.
Merry Christmas to you and your family, Brian.
Opinions please: If you were buying a new 2.0Ecoboost Maverick 2023, would you recommend an oil catch canister be installed within the first couple thousand miles and if so would this void the factory warranty? Or just wait and get walnut blasting after 30K or 40K miles? (with frequent oil changes Pennzoil UltraPlatnium and use premium fuel)
I have one on our Focus ST. Never had any warranty work or issues when dealers did oil changes (every other just so they could document while it was in warranty). We get 1-3oz every oil change in the can. In my mind it can’t hurt to keep that out of the intake. Last I checked was at 50k and it looked good (not as good as a port injected engine but still). We also drive it pretty hard which I feel helps with heat and additional pressures to burn what’s there off.
Your the man... Thank you for what you do... Retired mechanic but still tinker here and there with my own stuff... Have a 2020 Transit ecoboost, love it and love your videos helps my mind... Thanks, looking to get 150,000. To be happy with the product... Thanks again.... Will see
Best Ford Maintenance Resource on CZcams by far!!
I have a 2014 F-150 3.5 Ecoboost with 218K miles. 5K mile oil changes with synthetic oil only. My oldest son drives it now and it runs like a champ. The vacuum boost pump is starting to leak just a bit, but that is all.
I just bought a 2024 F-150 with Ecoboost. I am going to run Pennzoil Ultra Platinum and change at 5K as you recommend.
Question - If you turn off the auto start/stop and let the truck idle at stops, does the engine switch over to Port injection during this idling? Would that not be cleaning off the backside of the intake valves? If so - it would sense to let it idle. The possible fuel dilution is solved by changing a quality oil at 5K don't you think?
New or used which engine is the most reliable, the 5.0 or the ecoboost? Also which model year is better. I've been driving a 2006 Expedition with 180k miles and compared to others I've had very few issues. My guess is other than tires I've spent less $3k on shop repairs. My wife hates the vehicle mostly because of the age and is pushing me to purchase another vehicle. That's for your channel and I must say this is my go to channel for the few repairs I've done on my own.
V8. I got the 5.0L in my 14 f150 get 17.7mpg. Bigger the motor less stress. Plus v6 turbos will eventually go out. 2014 is not 1st Gen. After 2015 was a change of model. Never get 1st year model change. I would say big issue watch coolant. Hoses have plastic y with orings that leak around 100k.
I would still keep Expedition doesn't owe you money. Free miles, wear, tear. Plus extra vehicle when needed.
@@shawnkleveland3967 I'm a fan of the big engines myself. I have really gotten my money's worth out of that Expedition and to be honest it will be passed down to my son I usually keep vehicles for about 10 yrs before I pass them down but this one has held up really well and it still running good.
I have a 2012 3.5 with over 180K on it. No catch can and original timing set. Runs great in warm Florida. Do you think I should have the valve walnut blasted clean or wait for symptoms and have it torn down for cleaning? Merry Christmas!
Thanks for sharing your find on echoboot nothing beats port fuel injection good old reliable N/a engines
2018 f150 platinum is in the shop with 47k miles. Misfiring on 1,3,5. Took over a month for my scheduled appointment and the car had been running rough and if felt like a hard shift. This past Sunday while drive I almost didn’t make it home. Engine light finally came on and giving it gas I felt like my engine was gonna rattle out of my truck… here’s to hoping I get an honest tech
Vehicles aren’t designed to last nowadays, they’re designed to just last until warranty runs out
Edit: Also most people don’t maintain a vehicle like they should. Most don’t even read through the manual or even do a little research. I’ve heard numerous people buy into “The fluid in my such and such is lifetime fluid” and that’s a big no no. Fluids break down and get dirty. Yet another false thing car makers are promoting “lifetime fluid” it’s BS
Especially FORDs
Where have you been, they’ve been designed that way for decades.
@gianfrancoa ford's the best!!!! Rams chevys all suck!!!!
I think it has to do more with that being peoples mentality than the designers intentions. Maintenance is key and it shows.
The manufacturer does not have the buyers best interest in mind. They care about profitability and repeat buyers.
Thanks for your nice info-clip and I still think that Ford is the best out of the three but I stepped
away from them since they (even owning 20% of Cummins) wouldn't let go of the dqrn V8 Diesel engines and now they change the engine sizes more often than some folks their long johns!
You should see the runners on CCV+EGR diesel engines.
Hearing the "oh Lord" and seeing those valves on the 1st gen, I wasn't thinking they were too awful yet- worth addressing, but not crazy.
Have to remind myself this isn't diesel world.
I will go ahead and ask. Is there any additive you can use to help with this problem? Great video
Should we even be having carbon issues in 2023😅u would think by now they would have some sort of miracle fix for that
Yeah, they do...Planned Obsolescence...You buy a new car ev'ry 5 years...
These aren't 2023 model vehicles, The Gen1 EB is more than a decade old.
Just having to do timing chain work at 100K is enough reason not to buy one
But is that on gen1 or gen2 , or both?
I think timing chain issues with proper maintenance is rare we had and ecoboost from 35k miles to 145k miles with good maintenance syn oil changes every 5k with no issues.
A lot of the issues fall on the owner ex: oil change intervals, fuel used, and preventative maintenance
someone at Ford kicks the can down the road and then its someone else's problem
Catch cans is a good peace of mind to have on these trucks
I am not certain if how someone drives the vehicle has any bearing on the amount of carbon buildup. Or if there is any difference in the buildup on the 1st gen 2.7 Ecoboost with direct injection only vs the 3.5 but Id sure like to know. I have owned a 2016 F150 Supercrew 4x4 2.7 Ecoboost since it was new and it has been worked hard, significant heavy towing and raced as well. It has been 91 performance tuned since it had around 100,xxx miles and evolved into a near full bolt on (still has original turbos) and e50 tuned beast making roughly 200bhp above stock rating. Furthermore it still has the original timing set and ignition coils and now has 207,xxx miles. At around 200K I pulled the intake and cleaned the valves. They were about like that 100K 3.5 with port injectors, a little worse but certainly not in the category of the non port injector 3.5. Those horror stories are why I pulled my intake. Mine doesn't have port injectors. I also don't have a catch can.
This guy's your even on ford authority! I think it's time to ship my truck out to you at this point ford should just give up and pay you to design these things, Man you are the ford master
Great video. I've wondered about this exact topic since the second gen came out. Exactly what I suspected. It's a compromise, not a fix.
Awesome comparisons, like you said still carbon build up, but not as bad on the 2nd gen.
This video is awesome!!! And I'm not even a Ford owner! I'm a die-hard GM Guy who is 61 now.
I've learned a TON of info the last 10+ years because of guys like this! My 2015 Impala LTZ (3.6L VVT V6) still runs STRONG.
* The ONLY fuel it's seen is Certified Top-Tier NO-Ethanol Premium, from Shell or Holiday stations.
* Seafoam is used frequently in the gas too. Once a month at a 1/4 tank, 1/3 of a bottle goes in our cars.
* A month before an oil-change, I put a cup of SF in the Oil.
* ONLY MOBIL-1 is used, & NEVER more than a 5k o/c interval!
Great video, I was curious about the dual fuel injection. Also good info on how the system works. 100k to 150k miles and you have to do a timing job on this engine? Yikes.
I have been waiting for this video. It looks like oil catch cans would still be a good idea.
Very informative video. I bought a new F150 2.7 in 2019 because I read about the dual port injection helping to lessen carbon build up. Good to know how much it actually helps. Love your videos! I learn a lot from them.
Get a catch can
It's the reason why I have a UPR catch can which is for both the clean and dirty side hopefully making a big difference in keeping the blow-by out of my intake where it doesn't belong.
You still have folks stating that it's unnecessary due the duel fuel injection.
makes sense. Firms my belief that every GDI car should have catch-can installed.
Thanks Brian..... now I have something to show "doubters"......!!!
What can us gen 1 owners do to clean the back of the valves? Mines really bad when I start it for the first time everyday Rpm’s jump around pretty bad
Thank you for your sharing your vast knowledge on Ford products. What injection method is used when the driver selects Eco mode? Does it use the Port or Direct injection exclusively or both? Also, do catch cans help at all for this problem?
should be a major improvement , Toyota has been doing the dual injection for quite awhile and seems to work very well in those motors
Ok, looks like even the Gen 2 could use some catch cans then. Thank you for sharing this. It helps with the question about if it is worth it to add a catch can. Great info. The real question is what is causing this timing job to keep happening?
It’s critical to keep the oil changes current with good oil but the timing chain issues really boil down to bad design.
They got the right idea maybe they need to use a little more port injection on the fuel map
Thank you for a very short and easy to understand explanation
love your videos.. i am currently driving a 2013 f150. with the eco.. Truck has 197K on the odo. and i have not noticed any issues really with the engine itself. i still pull a trailer on occasion. i do on occasion take the intercooler out and clean it out. i did remove the BOV return line as soon as i got the truck. and it always has a snot ball hanging off of it. now and then i get it cleaned with under carrage wash. i will get intake removed and ill see how the ports look.
i dont have a catch can.
i change the plugs every 25K or so. been a good truck. hope to keep driving it another 100 K at least.
I in the same boat as you. I have 191,000 on my 2013, has has timing done under warranty once and by me once, exhaust manifolds re leveled once.
Still runs great, still pulls a 7000 lb trailer without issue, but have noticed fuel economy is not quite as good as it use to be. Either way, going for at least 300,000 out of it.