Is Prusa XL Print Quality Really BAD Or Is It USER Error?
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- čas přidán 16. 05. 2024
- In this video I provide an update on my early experience with the Prusa XL. I previously shared footage of my first print which showed very bad print quality. Since then I have done further troubleshooting which I discuss in detail here.
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00:00 How Bad Is It?
00:47 Is The Prusa XL A Bad Printer?
01:04 Once Source of The Problem
01:32 Is It Wet Filament?
01:55 Comparison to Bambu Lab X1C
02:20 New Filament
02:50 More Testing
03:35 Contributing Factors
04:00 Potential Solutions
04:12 Should a Prusa Need Tuning?
04:29 Tool Changing is Quick!
04:41 Bambu X1C Purge Time Comparison
05:32 Bambu X1C Purge Volume Comparison
05:40 Outro - Věda a technologie
Keep being honest, reviews like yours could save or cost me $4000.
wait for the prusa xl mk2 at least.
@@TMS5100 Where did you hear that its going to be an iterative design process? That's what i have been trying to find out.
@@jov7733 prusa does it with all their products. prusa mk1 prusa mk2 prusa mk3 prusa mk4. mmu mmu2 mmu3 etc.
its what PRUSA does...😇@@jov7733
@@jov7733 That has been what Prusa has done previously - the MK4 started as the I3, then the I3 MK2, MK2S, MK3, MK3S ... and there are upgrade kits all the way. Plus the firmware is constantly evolving, for all printers (e.g. the MINI is about to get input shaping). And that was why I was willing to put down a rather insane sum for a printer I knew would have teething issues.
Based on the close up shots, I suspect pressure advance is completely ignored in the firmware for tool changes. When the nozzle stops at the tool change location, there is too much pressure in the nozzle resulting in oozing. This would be similar to bulging corners without PA in the XY plane, but instead the direction change is up, leaving a "bulge" along the Z axis.
Yes, I believe this is exactly the case. There is a lift and a retraction, but it really comes too late. I am looking forward to the new 5.1 firmware which is supposed to bring both is and pa.
For a machine that's been available for such a long time, it's a bit weird that this issue comes up. You'd expect that all the delays would have helped delivering a solid product.
It is a solid product. This is all just small tuning issues. They will get addressed. @@PhilippensTube
And tool change is slow, in other videos tool change is done in less than 1 second with like 500mm/s speeds
Give me a break. Show me another tool changer on the market that is easily accessible for this price.
Thank you for the follow-up. It really shows that you are reading the comments and that you are interested in finding the issue regardless of brand name and fan bases :) Looking forward to your in-depth review.
Thanks for watching and commenting 😄
I just printed a multicolor bench on a XL with the cheapest PETG i could find.With a 0.8 mm nozzle there is a lot of stringing, but with a 0.4 mm nozzle the stringing is almost gone.
I printed with a nozzle temperature 5 deg. lower than the minimum advised. On a MK4 i have more or less the same results, but I use temperatures 15 deg hotter. I have not tried PLA yet.
For the single filament tests, did you do them all on the same nextruder to eliminate potential differences between them?
It doesnt look like the toolhead is wiping before doing a change, that plus lower zhop would reduce a lot of stringing
I have found Z hop causes more quality problems than it solves. I stopped using Z hop on my printers a couple of years ago.
Thanks for this info… I’ve had one on the order list for over a year as well and I’m going to wait until I get more information from you on how to work through this.
I am so glad I bought a Qidi Xmax 3 recently. No more profile tweaking, no more problem solving. Just printing. Excellent results with the cheapest filament availible (Esun, Sunlu, Jayo). PLA and ABS.
That’s good to hear! I have one in a box waiting to be opened.
Impressed with the X-Max 3 as well. Sits with my p1p's to pop out excellent prints, print after print. A++ for Qidi
Same here on my XMax3. Just went through a round of ABS printing. 280mm round didn't lose any prints.
Loved the video, I've had a Mk3S and an Ender 3 for several years now. As much as I've had fun improving/customizing the Ender, I absolutely love that my Prusa has just worked consistently since I assembled it. I feel that you are one of the first videos I've seen to bring up just how big a deal the efficiency of the Multi-tool head design of the XL plays. People hate on Prusa for "not advancing" fast enough but I'm finally starting to realize that the XL might really be on top once profile tuning catches up for the larger nozzle sizes.
I've been wanting to purchase a Mk4 upgrade kit so I can do an MMU kit on the Mk3S to dial it in while I keep the Mk4 churning prints, but this makes me wonder if I'm not better off saving for the XL
Upgrade is so expensive it’s cheaper to buy a MK4 kit and sell your MK3 if you go for the full upgrade.
Not to mention it’s just better to have the EXACT same hardware given the way they have tuned the input shaping specifically for that printer (no accelerometers…just tuned). Any differences in the parts could cause it to not work as well down the line when they have it completely ironed out.
No matter which upgrade you do, your MK3 frame will be different than the stamped MK4 frame with the hex cutouts.
Considering we are talking about fractions of millimeters when it comes to print quality…every little bit matters.
I believe this is partially why the mk3-MK4 upgrade is so expensive. They made the MK4 printer itself more enticing than the upgrade path.
The efficiency of the tool changer is crazy compared to the waste generated by the various filament changing solutions. Bambulab has taken some flak, but I assume both the palette and the mmu generate similar weights of waste, just in a nice tower instead of boxes of poo. And while there are stringing issues (it seems to me that the teeny tiny backlash in the planetary gear makes the retraction at move happen just a bit too late), the printer is rock solid and super nice. On the other hand, those are some really expensive gummy bears
I also have the XL5, and I also am/have been battling lousy print quality, especially on my multi-material prints.
I have found two things you should try:
Check belt tension, it looks like you have some layer anomalies that could come from a slightly loose belt
Check the silicone covered springs at parking, and adjust them to the lowest height where they displace a bit when the wriggle test is done. That pretty much eliminated stringing from the parked position from me.
But, it seems clear to me that more tuning of firmware + print profiles is required, the stringing between the printed object and the wipe tower is still crazy.
I have the 2 Toolhead Version and I noticed the following:
- Yes, Toolchanges are the problem
- The reason is not the toolchanger itself for though. It works flawless
- Yes the printer prints hotter than expected so lowering temperature helps
- dialing up retraction can help a little
- PETG is much worse compare to PLA
- With 0.4 nozzles it works a lot better
- Yes, you need to check the machine and especially the tool parking station
So yeahh it is a great machine and I am happy with my purchase, but it is not yet a plug and play machine like the MK3 was for me.
Today I printed PETG with PLA as support material, and this came out completely different. There is some slight stringing from the PETG, but it is very old and wet so that is to be expected - and it is considerably less stringy than what my MK3S produces with the same roll. Clearly the SOLUBLE FULL profile is better tuned!
it's not retracting when changing tools, the tool change gcode needs needs retraction!
isn't there a setting like 'prime' that reduces pressure towards the end of a layer before retraction?
I don't know about the nozzle size being the problem. I've printed with up to 1 mm nozzles, and one of my machines I've been using 0.8 mm for years, and I don't get stringing like that. Granted, there are no color changes, but I don't get that oozing and stringing during printhead rapid moves.
thanks for the video. Yes, in my experience, XL runs hotter than others and humidity affects it more than other models... dry the filament well and the stringing is completely gone...
Phu, i ordered the 5 toolhead version too, but i did not get it until now. But in the long meantime i bought the Bambu X1C with AMS and i love it. The things i saw from the XL did not convince me. Im not sure what to do. Perhaps it is better to cancel the order. In addition: since i used the Bambu Studio for an while i dont like using Prusa Slicer. Big dout.... Thank you for the video. Im interested in more!
The efficiency of the colour swaps is what really sells the XL. If the print quality issues get worked out I think it will be a great printer.
@@ygk3d still lack of enclosure is baffling. no ability to print advanced engineering grade filaments is a huge letdown.
I'm sure someone will come up with an XL enclosure kit. Thing is, the XL PDU and PSUs need to be kept from getting too hot in an enclosure, as heat really reduces their lifespan. But that said, it would not be too difficult to enclose just the print area of the XL and leave the electronics out.
@@ygk3d yes, thats right. Can you confirm, that its not possible to use octoprint with the xl?
Can't wait for the full review! Since buying the X1C with AMS, I've been wondering what the heck am I gonna do with my 5 head XL when it becomes available for full payment!
Given the content in this video, print multi-color prints in 1/15th the time I would guess.
@@stew675precisely. So much quicker!
@@ygk3d but only if you sort out the print quality issues... funny thing is, with X1C, I hardly ever use larger nozzles, because the motion system is so fast relative to the available melt rate, there is little benefit to going to a larger diameter nozzle. On my old MK3s, I use to swap nozzles to reduce print times because the motion system was way below the performance of the heating system.
@@shenqiangshouif you *really need speed* so much, your BambuLab is almost as bad as your Prusa! Get a RatRig or Hevort, or 247Zero and use some crazy hotend like the Goliath Hotend.
Bambu didn’t discover CoreXY, nor are they on the leading edge of it’s innovation
2:14 the print on the left looks like it was printed hotter. Hotter can be messier and increase inconsistent extrusion. It also looks like the perimeter order could be different between the two and is there a Z-seam difference? At least the smoke stack is better on the XL. Have you tried making the retract faster, sometimes making the retract snappier can make it produce less stringing. A .6mm nozzle can be close in quality to a .4mm.
Print on the left was from the XL printed at 200. On the right was from the X1C at 220. One was sliced in PrusaSlicer and the other in Bambu Studio so that would explain the differences in z seam, etc. I haven’t played with retraction speeds. I will look into that. Thanks.
@@ygk3d Interesting.. More glossy means its being printed hotter. I think your X1C is just under temp because its printing faster.
Good video. I'm encountering the same issues. I think there's still some tuning to be done with the XL in general as the 5head had the shortest test time of the XLs, and lots of community learning (we have how much single extruder experience between all of us but now are just starting to get multitool experience). The other people saying "for costing this much... it should perform at such and such level" that's a garbage argument. By that reasoning, cars should never break down and houses should never have any flaws in them. Keep digging and testing and sharing and we'll figure it out together!. 🙂
I don't think that's a garbage argument at all. This isn't the machine breaking down from use. It's not performing as expected from brand new. The thing has been in development for 2+ years. The oozing and stringing has to be a known issue because of the little rubber wiper/stopper that was added under each toolhead.
this is just prusa being prusa. releasing an unfinished product and expecting their users to be beta testers for the first couple years to work out all the fundamental basic bugs that should have been identified during development.
...what about lowering speeds...? Whenever I had problems with oozing, slowing by 30% really helps...
What about using nozzle-wipe while/before retracting?
It's already doing that as part of the XL profile.
As a subscriber, it's fascinating to watch you operate the XL printer. However, I'm encountering a frustrating issue with the filament purge located at the front of the build plate. Somehow, it gets entangled with the nozzle, is pulled back into the print, and leads to failures. Either the strip isn't adhering to the bed properly, or it slightly curls and sticks to the nozzle. It's hard to pinpoint the exact moment this occurs. I diligently clean the nozzle and bed before each print, but I lack confidence in leaving a new print unattended until it successfully clears this stage of the project.
Thanks for subscribing! Strange about your issue with the purge line. That’s not something I’m experiencing on my machine. It prints a small section on the portion of the bed that sticks out with the rest dropping off the side. I’ve had stringing from this process ruin my first layer as the tools retract to the park position, but never had the lines stick to the nozzle.
I never had this problem... is your z offset ok?
It is hit or miss this is why i baby sit the machine and once past this state can leave with confidence it will print just fine@@LimpiezasMyG
I got a Bambu Labs P1S a few days ago, and have been trying to solve AMS retraction failures. It’s certainly much slower than my Sovol SV04 IDEX if you use dual colours, due to the very lengthy (and wasteful) purging. Multiple print heads is the way to go.
It looks to me that this Prusa XL needs to perform a filament retract prior to moves. Some tuning of the amount for each nozzle size, and a slight delay, should stop that over-pressure issue.
Have you printed the shortstack mod? Just got a P1S 3 days ago and had MAJOR ams retraction issues. I printed the shortstack mod and it fixed it.
@@KiCkiN828
That one didn’t work for me. I ended up using: “Bambulabs X1C PTFE-Bracket - Extended Version” (from Printables).
It would be interesting to look at stringing with a .4 nozzle
Agreed. I will plan to include that in the full review.
I feel like it's worth noting that filament from a sealed bag doesn't mean it's dry. Not saying that's your issue but it's a flawed assumption
True. I guess that’s wishful thinking…
Agreed, my experience is that filament is not dried fullyafter coming off the production line. The last step in some filament production lines apparently is rapid cooling the filament in a water bath.
Hmmm I wonder if the filament is degrading in the nozzle while being parked at temperature
Mhhh… 🤔
Funny. I posted something frustrtating in the Prusa-Discord ... exactly that problem with my Prusa XL. I had rly bad printing results and it looked like the filament was wet, but was factory new and sealed (prusament petg urban grey). After i dried the f out of it, it got better and my benchy looks exactly like yours. Stringing is still a problem. Looks like .6 nozzles arent that great on the prsua xl right now tbh. I also got problems with my first layer ... in the back the nozzle is way to far away from the print sheet, even though it lvled itself by probing with the nozzle )=.
Good video - can absolutely confirm the here shown problems and state of the Prusa XL.
Strining increases with nozzle size, had personal experience of switching from 0.4 to 1.0 mm nozzle but not as much as yours (i used esun filaments).
Would be interesting too see what happens if you pick same nozzle to bamboo one
Also i really wish if you can try 1.0 mm nozzle at high speed - this is really the stress test for any hotend/extruder, it is so good at highlighting any flaw of design (ask me how i know)
Hey man, Thanks for your video.
I have the same stringing issues with my XL.
What I found, is that the reverse bowden tube puts quite a lot of drag/ resistance on the filament. I changed it out to a wider 3mm iD/ 4mm oD and my results actually improved! marginally for PLA, but with PETG significantly, and TPU is well-printable now. Maybe it does something for you as well.
That tracks - I had to replace every PTFE tube on my MK3+MMU with larger diameter tubes - otherwise the friction made printing absolutely unreliable
Interesting! This is a good suggestion. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for sharing the benefits of the multiple tool heads on print time. This is something I don't think most people realize.
I will admit that this has me questioning if i should just switch to. 4mm nozzles right from the get go.
If the print quality is good i can deal with stringing, that's why i have a heat gun.
Prusa spent most of their time tuning their 0.4mm nozzle profiles as that's what they've shipped all their printers with until now, so I think they'll be able to tweak these profiles for 0.6mm to get it improved more later. that said, I think the larger nozzle size will cause it to never be as clean in regards to stringing as the 0.4mm nozzle, so I would probably switch to 0.4mm if I bought one. input shaper should make up for the print time increase. not to mention the crazy color swap speeds. and I'm envious of the fast it can swap with so little waste. not to mention never having color bleed since nozzles aren't shared
It’s quite profound how much more efficient the tool changing is versus purging a single hotend.
@@ame7165great points!
@@ame7165 I agree, with input shaping I honestly would have no need for the larger nozzle. If it ends up printing as fast as the MK4 with input shaping I would be more then happy.
How long did that 2-color bench take on the XL. You mentioned that it was only marginally long than single color but I’d be interested to know the actual time. I expect it will be longer than the Bambu for now since they don’t have input shaping yet.
Interestingly, I didn't think my Prusa MK3S+ ran that hot until I bought the Bambu Lab P1S... I was worried the P1S was running too cold! I cancelled the XL and the MKS4 upgrade. The print quality on the P1S is fantastic... after watching your video I think I made the right choice for now. I'm sure (hope) Prusa can get the XL squared away. I still need a bigger print volume... I'll wait and see what happens with Prusa and Bambu Lab next...
Prusa is too expensive versus quality /speed , there are better cheaper faster machines as yuo know😊, bambulabs machines are very good
Hey man! I appreciate your video. I'm really torn on the XL. I want to join the Prusa club, but I have some specific needs on my machines. The XL is the closest so far, but I still cant quite tell if its one my shop needs. I'll be waiting for more info or a chance to try it myself.
Thanks for watching! Sounds like a good plan. If you don’t need it right away wait it out to see how it shakes out. That being said, there is a very long wait for them so might not hurt to get a pre-order in the queue and cancel at a later date if you change your mind.
coming from prusa i'd go x1c all day long now. Especially if you profit from your printers
Just don’t! I have PRUSA XL and also X1C.. save your frustration and go with Bambu X1C. It is way better than the shitty XL.
I own both, a five tool XL and an X1C with AMS. They are way different machines when multi-material printing. They also have different size nozzles, and that does make a difference. Yes, the X1C currently blows the XL out of the water regarding print speed and quality, at least at this moment. But, the XL destroys the X1C's print times when printing multi-material/multicolor models. Let's not forget that input shaper has not been even implemented in the XL yet. So... which printer is better has yet to be determined. 😊
Is most stringing moves inside the model or when it is changing?
It’s a pretty equal split
The tool changes and retractions are actually causing the stringing. Z hop for example creates a massive amount of stringing. On my e3d tool changer I removed zhop and I no longer get that much stringing. You're slowly moving the hotend vertically which kinda stretches the filament like toffee before moving away.
You do have the MK4 which is the same hotend/Extruder as the XL as far as I know. You don't seem to have issue with the MK4 so maybe the XL extruder steps are not calibrated !
Oh, I see you did address it. I found your first video in YT search, so I didn't know you made more videos on it.
Interesting. If the cause of layers not stacking nicely was an assembly fault, could it be that you incorrectly assembled the Nextruder? I have heard it is a bit of pain to assemble… Coming from the latest Infill Podcast episode
Thanks for listening and popping over here. The Nextruders for the XL come fully assembled, unlike for the Mk4. But there are some definite layer issues that need to be investigated.
I would love to know how many hours you have on your different printers? And which one served you the best?
If you want to get rid of the stringing, get rid of z-hop, which causes it mainly and maximize travel speed. Both reduces the time in which oozing could occur. Z-Hop causes more issues, than it solves.
Not really. If it's a fine tuned machine it should matter. This is more than z hopping.
Thanks. I will try this.
I have a dual head XL with .6 and .8 heads. I think the 'better' nozzle design=more heat transfer and thus the 10 deg hotter perspective. The filament outgassing causes the oozing through the larger nozzle. The .4 and lowering the temp would help but I like the .6 better so far.
I print PETG on another CoreXY printer (brand unimportant) and experience no stringing. I never use Z hop as there seems no reason to use it (if flow rate/extrusion multipliers is tuned correctly) and several reasons not to use it.
I always dry new rolls of PETG in the kitchen oven before use.
Main point of this post is to point out you can print PETG with 0.6 mm nozzle and high flow hot end without needing to accept/expect stringing.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
god I am so freaking curious how that locking mechanism works tho!
In simple terms, it’s like a deadbolt on a door. The movement of the tool changing mechanism locks and unlocks it.
yeah but I want to see it in detail. like how is the sliding metal piece lifted, is it flat or does it have a slope? do the pins on the tool side have springs on them? how do they achieve the correct consistent tension required for a tool changer to work properly and accurately. how does it not unlock with vibration during printing. @@ygk3d
Can the prusa xl print well with TPU?
To be determined…
Yes, see this video of TPU combined with PLA in same print: czcams.com/video/oUXeIEUS68I/video.html
Did you try the latest firmware, with Input Shaping?
Yes. It helped a lot. I talk about it in the follow up to this video.
You need a dump/purge more filament before continue to print. The problem is when extruder was standby mode, the filament inside the heat break was also soften...once machine switch to this extruder, the retraction will not be so effective because the filament was pulled out from heat break instead of nozzle. Purge more filament before actual print will solve the stringing issue. Another way is to lower the standby temperature if you want to save some filament. or retract the filament away from nozzle before parking
FYI, at least on my home-assembled single-tool PrusaXL the print quality is the same or better as that from my MK3 with a .6mm nozzle. The very large sample dragon and rocket nozzle prints came out amazingly good without defects of any kind with the included Prusament PLA roll. Note that this is without the pressure advance feature. The alpha release of the new pressure advance stuff has been hit or miss in terms of print quality, but I have never seen that kind of stringing from any of my dozen MK3s and MINIs. Prusa as a company is meticulous about print quality, so I seriously doubt this is a design flaw, but rather a configuration issue somewhere.
I was a bit concerned having one of these on order. the previous results where bad, luckily most of it was a mistake in setup, so phew:-)
The weirdest thing about this is the test print it comes with on the bed. they apparently have them working at the factory, but something goes wrong afterwards.
even if the test print on the bed is from a different machine and just packaged in, they at least have THAT machine working well, so what's going on?
It's really weird...
Not sure how they generated that test print since the printer doesn’t come with the print heads installed. I didn’t notice any filament in the nozzle when I loaded for the first time. The test print itself did have some stringing but not as severe.
@@ygk3d Very strange that print it came with was better. I'm not sure on XL but on previous printers would you believe that they fully assemble the kits then disassemble them again for shipping.. If there is the gcode on the machine maybe try that see if it is better or not, to rule out any slicer issues or bugs.
My guess of the root cause of the stringing issue is that the friction of the filament in the tubes much higher then in the mk4 due to length and sharp bend in them, so that the extruder struggle to do retractions fast enough.
Well, that assembly mistake you made is really a rookie one. Just seeing a hole like that in a sheet metal, everybody with a bit of experience knows where the screw heads should end up relative to the part. But whatever, we all are humans... There's not a lot of Prusa XL reviews still, but in the limited numbers I haven't seen anybody having such a huge stringing problems. Might be another assembly mistake or specific firmware or a faulty part in your printer...
I'd suggest to involve Prusa support. They are known to have one of the best customer supports in the business. Trying to troubleshoot it yourself only leads to frustration and way too much wasted time, effort and probably also money.
Definitely worth contacting Prusa support about this.
I find it rather irresponsible to post a video like this before even doing that. Don't get me wrong: we need honest reviews, and seeing someone go through their troubleshooting process can be a great help for viewers with similar issues. But don't post the video before you actually fix the problem, or before giving the manufacturer the chance to assist. That's just good honest journalism.
I store my PLA in the open air and have never had stringing that bad on my Prusa Mk3S. I really want to get the XL but im not sure I want to spend that much money on something I cant be sure will work.
Have you reached out to Prusa support yet? The 0.6 nozzle can attribute to extra stringing over the 0.4 in the Bambu, but this seems a bit excessive. I've seen some people use a nozzle brush wipe from Printables, but that seems excessive. Have you seen if your nozzles are oozing while they are parked?
lots of people warned prusa about their choice of 0.6 nozzle but prusa ignored them. this is the result.
@@TMS5100 I have 25k hours on my MK3 using a .6mm nozzle. Zero stringing issues. Stop with the misinformation.
Not yet. Wanted to see if I could work it out on my own first. The nozzle brush add-on seems pretty crucial. I will have to look into that. The nozzles aren’t oozing while they’re parked because there is silicone seals that cap them. They do, however, ooze when they leave the print and return to the park position.
@@ygk3d increase retraction ?
@@JohnOlson I’ve already doubled it from stock 😬. Will try playing with retraction speeds and decrease z hop next.
I agree with everything you said in this video, except for you saying your wet filament prints with "satisfactory results". The print one the X1 carbon looks better than on the Prusa XL, but it's still terrible
Yea both looked terrible tbh!
I am frustrated with my Prusa XL. The oozing from 0.6 mm nozzle is ruining my prints. I also don't understand the heat absorbing/nozzle cleaning algorithm at the beginning of each print. In my case, it contaminates the nozzle rather than clean it.
Wait…there’s no purge buckets or nozzle wipers?? I thought they weee using the silicone pads for the all the toolheads
The silicone pads are just to seal the nozzles when parked. There is no wiping brush or purge bucket. There are some user designed add-ons but none on a stock machine.
Best solution to prusa issues is to sold PrusaXL and to buy two x1c combo for the same money and in most cases you will have faster prints x4 even with material change for multicolor prints. Only the case PrusaXL is faster is a small multi color models if you print only one of them. But quality is not even to compare, all benchies you print on prusa are on the ender 3 level. Prusa started design to compete DIY printers like voron but did not take into account bambulab that smashes prusa in all ways
Thanks for the update. My single color XL has printed fine from day one, with appropriate allowances for the 0.6 nozzle. I view a larger printer with a large nozzle like the XL to be a tool for larger prints. For smaller prints a smaller nozzle and printer make more sense. Of course tool changing is a whole new set of equations to solve and it may take awhile to get it all sorted out. I don't see any other toolchangers at this price point. If it was easy there would be many. There are many simpler printers on the market at even higher price points, so Prusa is pushing the envelope here for this level of complexity at this price.
Note also that new filament is not necessarily dry, especially budget filament. I generally avoid budget filament and some of the issues that you are facing are definitely affected by filament quality and moisture content. I would not expect a generic setting to work with all generic filaments, that's too random a set of problems to be solved and not something Prusa is going to invest a lot of effort on. Using low quality filament in a tool changer is perhaps an especially questionable choice due to the higher requirements for the filaments actually matching the tuning to have the printing system perform. In any case it is early days for the multi-tool XL.
I look forward to your progress with the multi-tool XL.
I've been successful printing using the cheapest PLA on both Prusa and Bambu printers in the past. Surprise the XL is so much more finicky in this regard.
We've seen the multitool XL print quite nicely at festivals around the world. What's the difference? They don't mess with random filament, and they know how to dial the printer in. Swapping toolheads requires coordination with filament characteristics to a larger degree than a simple single tool printer. There will be further improvements in firmware and slicer software. These issues will likely be solved over time for multi-tool printing, just look at how much improvement there has been since some years ago for single tool.
Thanks for your comment. Interesting points.
Those close shots look like it's just too slow. The reason why prints coming from Bambu machines look good is because those printers move fast - there's no time to ooze filament out, by default there's excessive Z-Hop and retractions yet very little stringing thanks to that. I would try bumping up Z-Axis jerk, acceleration and speed much higher. Also, the nozzle looks a bit flat on the end - is that a new one? Maybe it's just sticking to the material too god, so you could try applying a bit of dry ptfe lube on the hotend and see if it helps.
With the price of that printer, I want perfection. Prusa is still king level, but this needs work...a lot of work.
I think it is hard to directly compare the Bambu prints to the XL prints as they are dealing with 2 very different print systems. One has filament going thru a single nozzle that is constantly being cycled while the other has multiple nozzles sitting hot with filament in them, likely generating steam. In addition, the short trim color changes in a bench likely doesn't clear all the melted filament that has been dwelling in the nozzle. It would be good to see both larger models and, as suggested, a print with a 0.4mm nozzle so we are closer in comparison.
> while the other has multiple nozzles sitting hot with filament in them, likely generating steam
seems a fundamental design flaw then, if the design causes bad print quality.
The prime tower that's used next to the print should already be helping with the "sitting" filament inside the nozzle... at least a bit to get the amount inside the nozzle out.
It's fine to have it sitting there hot with filament in it, that is what the bit of priming rectifies. Pus think about it.. you leave filament sitting in your hotend all time for minute at a time before printing ;)
Same printer, same problems . Waiting for a good solution. Already use the temp trick
Misery loves company. Glad to hear I’m not alone.
@@ygk3dhey, since not everyone has a 5 Tool machine. If you want to compare something with mine, i can help you.
The horizontal banding on your sheep at 4:00 - that's rough looking. Something is not right in thh print. The white def looks worse than the black
I noticed that too. Need to investigate further.
Watching this makes me realize how lucky I was to buy a kingroon kp3s as my first printer. I may have been put off printing if I had bought something like this particular Prusa.
I just got done testing the Kingroon KLP1. It is nice!
@@ygk3d Nice. I must admit, apart from being slower than the corexy or crossed gantry machines, I really can’t complain about the print quality off what is one of the cheapest 3D printers on the market. I’ll upgrade to the likes of the KLP1 in due course.
I have no stringing issues with my Ender 3 clone running an 0.6. I'm not sure that's the cause.
How about drying the filament before using it? This seemed like the most obvious thing to try first. New spools of filament are not guaranteed to be dry.
I am by no means a Bambu shill, but gyyyyaaaat dayuuuuum the release of this printer has been an aboute shitshow so far from what I’ve been observing. I can only imagine the frustration of waiting for almost two years for your new printer…
People lean on retraction too much to solve stringing. Esteps & flow, linear/pressure advance, internal diameters of PTFE, and movement/slop in fittings are the rest that people ignore. I use a lot of PETG so I also make sure that wipe on retract, retract on layer change, and avoid crossing perimeters is on.
Good video. I have had mine running for about 2 weeks and had excellent results. I started slow with single filament prints and have started ramping up my color changes. The latest firmware and new slicer version seem to be helping. It is not perfect, but I think they will be making more software changes quickly. The tool changing has been great, less problems than my Bambu X1 with AMS
Thanks! My experience has been very similar to yours. Things have gotten much better lately.
One suggestion would be to lower the z-hop distance or remove it completely.
The z-hop before the tool change is no joke, I wonder if some g-code changes to make it wipe clear of the print first and move z later would help.
That’s a good suggestion, thanks! I wil try that. Not sure why Prusa would include it since it seems to greatly contribute to the stringing.
SPIRAL Z HOP WILL FIX THAT STRINGING!!!!
Mhhh... Is that a feature in PrusaSlicer?
Retraction tower, temperature tower? Why not run those tests
I'll do those next. I just used the guess and check method here but clearly that wasn't enough.
@@ygk3d Definitely a good idea. I do understand the point of your video though. It’s an expensive printer, and comparatively, others at the price range do not require such tinkering.
For a machine costing this much, you shouldn't have to mess with it to get a basic print out in satisfactory quality. I've seen sub $200 printers do substantially better out of the box.
I agree.
I agree with the core issue, and am annoyed it is like this at launch (this should all have been solved before not LATER), i do think this is due to it having way more complexity/new aspects than the “comparison” due to being a Toolchanger.
Again no reason for them to release a product before beta testing it, but selling an Ender3 Clone, or Putting Injection Molded Makeup on a Voron has far less risk to it, so at least in my opinion is near impossible to mess up.
I’ll be interested to see how this all looks a year or so down the line when issues are solved, then it should be the proper fair comparison, although it still is terrible that it was released like this, not to mention most of the reviews being with single Toolhead versions which remove it’s main selling point over a HevORT etc.
Thanks for this video. I am not a Prusa Fanboy, yet i do not even own a Prusa. I think at the Moment, there is no reason for buying a Prusa anymore. They were so ahead years ago, but now they are behind. I know you cant compare a Prusa XL to a Bambulab X1 directly, but the Bambu is like 10 times worth in my Opinion. What marked they wanna get with the Prusa XL? .... Well thanks for the Video!
The layers look horrible - massive z-banding. For a $2k+ machine - this is not excusable. Thank you for the video and update.
Did you even watch more a minute in? The "z banding" you're talking about is from him assembling the printer wrong.
Yes, I did. Still - fix the video. Prusa duche.@@viru52000
To be honest, you don't say that Průša XL costs at least 2 Bambus Carbon and 4 P1S.
Good point :)
The prints from my Prusa Mini+ look as bad as yours from the XL
Here's hoping you get to the bottom of this. I am sure the Prusa people will help you out. I almost bought a single-extruder version of this printer. When I first saw the news of this printer, I was quite dazzled by its size and the engineering improvements put into it. I pre-ordered on in mid-November of 2021, but I cancelled the order in March of this year for a couple of reasons; first I didn't have any idea when I would ever get it, and second I realized that for all of its advanced construction, the lack of an enclosure on the Prusa XL would limit it to printing PLA, PETG, and TPU. Since I already had printers that could do a good job of printing with these materials (even though they would print slower and not as large), I decided to cancel my order and look for something else. As I still wanted a large-format printer, the Bambu printers did not interest me, but when Qidi came out with the X-Max 3, I decided that was the printer for me. With its very large build size and its heated chamber, this printer can print in some engineering quality plastics. So far, the X-Max 3 is working for me. I doubt that I would ever buy a non-enclosed printer again. But I am still impressed with the Prusa XL, even though it was not the printer for me. I will be following your journey with this printer with great interest.
I have an e3d tool changer and I get way better quality than that. Its technically an interior machine on paper, but results wise it seems superior.
The time difference between the XL and X1 for a dual color benchy is huge. Bambu takes 6hrs for s dual color benchy!? Oh man, that right there seems to be good justification to get an XL with at least 2 tool heads.
For the stringing, i bet you'd see a considerable improvement by pre drying the filament. If you're in even a mildly humid location, the .6 nozzle (as you mentioned) could be the contributing factor upon retraction, due to it's enlarged orifice. By pre drying for 8 hrs with a good active dryer, i bet you'd get considerable improvement (reduced stringing). I mean, even the bambu had some stringing and a few layers looked droopy (such as the boat railing of the benchy) my be from moisture in the filament?.
It may be worth it to at least do one or two experiments with an active dryer. 👍😊
Thanks for the great video
Looks to me like a $4000 beta test. Wonder if they'll send everyone who bought this boat anchor a free spool of filament as thanks for fleshing out their machines.
this is usual for prusa. they rush unfinished product to market, then end users have to suffer working out all the fundamental bugs for the next couple years before it's to a reasonable state.
@@TMS5100 if I spent $4k on ANYTHING and it worked like crap it would be going back post haste. There is ZERO excuse. Especially when Prusa has multiple printers under their belt.
@@TMS5100 Kinda like bambu lab? Remember all the busted MC fans? All the warped beds? All the broken AMS rollers? All the broken AP/TH boards?
@@LilApeHahaha prusa fanboy coping HARD 🤣🤣🤣 enjoy your decade old 3d printed high school science project 🤣🤣
@@elmonni2103 paid bambu bot ^^
Lmao I had to stop the video, its hilarious how someone can buy such expensive HUGE printer and print dozens of stupid 3DBenchys😅. Actually it shouldn't be necessary to print even a single one and just use that printer like a functioning tool. I'd have sent it back and not waste too much time on it. This is crazy ...
Few days ago I've unboxed the A1 Mini and...yes I've printed a 3DBenchy because it seemed the best example on the SD card. 19 minutes. And its flawless. Actually one of the best benchys there is. 😅
I have the exact same printer. I do not have any stringing issues, so I think there might be an issue with yours. (Possible solution later. Read on.)
I was very disappointed with all the manuel assembly I had to do. I think it might be related, and I have not see any other videos you have made, so please bear with me if you have already done this, but one thing that came to mind when I saw this video is the little "flap" (Nozzle Seal) that sits beneath the toolhead when it is parked. The very first prints I did was also stringy, but after aligning them, that went away.
There is a video with the alignment procedure right here: czcams.com/video/HDRa0PzoqtI/video.html
I think it is important not to be too critical of the Prusa Core XL. It is the first CoreXL printer Prusa3D has made, so there will be some issues. I am hopeful that they will eventually iron them out with firmware or upgrades. But as you say, the high price tag for the printer make it hard not to expect perfection. I do not think that it prints as nice as my MK3s but almost. Comparing the multiprint possibilities that was not working at all with the MMU2 make me not regret the purchase though, so I am positive. I also expect that they will make the printer go much faster as time goes on. Already the input shaping has really made a difference.
Hope you will have some luck with the printer soon.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Prusa is the best printer you can get ...in 2014 :p Please review that new magnet 3d printer next :D
Haha. I’d like one of those. They look nifty 😁
@@ygk3d Yeah no belts or stepper motors. Seems crazy. I just wish it would be hovering in stead of using linear rails :D
Notice that all videos of that magnet printer so far don't show it actually printing, just moving.. It's nowhere near ready.
I gave up XL after seeing massive quality issue reported.
For the price this is very underwhelming. You should just hit print and be done.
Bro, you paid how much to tinker like crazy?
Too much 😵💫
Why you have so much Z-HOP on tool change? That's the reason why you have stringing! Also toolhead change is slow, in other videos it is extremely fast.
Have the (design prototype test) guy on the channel. Prusa loves his reviews too
Haha that guy is next level
He looks at a picture of some printers and gives them a 1 star review 🤣
The cost of this printer makes it a dumb purchase but the quality of the prints you’ve shown off makes it criminal.
In my opinion, the string is cause by wet filament and bad slicing parameter. Newly opened filament can often be wet out of the factory, you need to dry it, the string is all white, that is the problem. Also, adding wipe before retraction can help reducing stringing, but excess amount of retraction can not, there's no point adding more and more retraction. For any given direct drive extruder, 1~1.5mm is the maximum effective amount, more then that is meaningless, you can not create negative perssure inside the hotend, you can only "release" the pressure. Implementing PA or LA1.5 is always helpful when tuned properly. You should always print a tempreture tower for every old filament when using a new machine or when using a new brand of filament. After all this, your print will start to look better then ever.
Other then that, keep on making these great video, and happy printing.
Freshly opened filament is soaking wet, not dry. It's not dry unless you dried it yourself and kept it in a drybox ever since.
"Soaking wet" is inaccurate hyperbole. High quality filament, such as Prusament, is dry before vacuum sealing and can be used immediately without additional drying.
@@TROPtastic It's closer in moisture content to what you'd get actually dunking it in water vs what you'd get properly drying it. Vacuum seal is useless unless it's a mylar bag or similar. Normal vacuum seal bags do not seal out moisture. That's why most crunchy snacks come in bags with special coatings. On top of that, it needs to have been thoroughly dried before sealing, which is not easy. I have *never* received a roll of filament, regardless of reputation of brand, that came ready for printing.
Jezus man, i feel so sorry for you. Spending so much money and getting such crap.
It got better from here, but it was a rough start.
Woof😢
"Toolchangers are the way to go when it comes to multi color printing."
Yes and no. But mostly no.
Printers from BambuLab for example may be slower and waste more, but for the additional costs of a XL with 4 toolheads at 3500$ or whatever it does cost, you can buy and waste A LOT of filament if you go the A1 Mini route.
You could pretty much waste filament the entire year and wouldn't hit the cost.
The demonstrated prints are all easily doable on the A1 Mini, actually it's the overall best choice to do so. No other printer does it as good as the Mini.
Great point. If economics are factored in, the changes the equation.
So you're okay with wasting money in lost filament and adding tons more plastic waste to the environment just so you can save money? BL printers create so much plastic waste because the company behind them is locating in one of the highest pollution countries in the world. They have no morals or ethics when it comes to plastic waste.
Well and if you're fancy, you could also collect all of it and recycle the "waste" ^^
@@REDxFROG Something that nobody does. It's silly to try and compare the XL to the A1. They're in entirely different leagues and purpose built for different tasks. That's like comparing an ender 3 to a stratasys.
@@LilApe ender3 vs stratasys is not the same comparison as A1 vs XL...
Especially if you think about it, a A1 is an addition. It can outperform the XL easily. But the XL can also outperform the A1 (faster color changes, bigger size, more materials)
Actually it's always a good idea to have a small sized, mid sized and large sized printer.
prusa fanboys coping HARD in the comments, enjoy your decade old tech 🤣🤣🤣
New, sealed filament can still be wet. You should get a dryer if you want to remove variables from your tests instead of being "pretty sure".
while yes thats correct it should be bad for single color and on the bambu if it was a filament issue .. this isn't the only review i've seen with people having issues pretty embarrassing
he pointed out that the filament hasn't been a problem on any other printer he has. why is the XL the only ultra sensitive printer if moisture was a problem? his bambu x1c had no problems whatsoever with the exact same filament.
Good point. It may not be perfectly dry out of the package. If moisture is the issue then the XL must be super sensitive to it versus other printers. Perhaps because of the larger nozzle size and slower travel speeds versus the X1C.
@@ygk3d my cr10v2 has a .6 cht in it. And doesn't string at all once dialed in. Granted it did at the stock .8 setting for the orbiter but 1.5 -1.75 is fine which you went to.
Damn you are too cute. Mmm
Wrong video bro 🤣
Of course its user error. Its a prusa, 99% of problems that occur with prusa printers are due to incorrectly assembled kits. Just remove Z hop. Saves you time in printing and little to no stringing.
how is using a setting defined by prusa in the default profile user error?
@@shanemshort He literally assembled a part of the printer wrong, causing the main issue. the rest is slicer issues or wet filament. Comparing a prusa with a .6 nozzle to a bambu lab with a .4 is silly. Even more so when the hotends are completely different.
The layer issues I was observing initially were user error. The stringing is bad profiles from Prusa, in my opinion. Shouldn’t need to do extensive tuning on this type of printer.
Can I get a YIIIIIIIIIIIIKES in the chat please
I’ll see your YIIIIIIIIIIIIKES and raise you a WOWZA
This is sloppy reviewing. Get your installation right and use dry filament before you put out a clickbait negative video.
I don’t think you really watched it. This isn’t a review but rather an update on the print quality issues I had previously reported on. I did the requisite testing to say with reasonable certainty that this isn’t completely related to wet filament. I also said some very positive things about the XL throughout. It’s not all negative.
The movement seems so slow for a tool change.
And the zhop when changing filament seems like a bad choice, I have seen bambuslicer generates like a spiral movement when changing filament, that would be interesting if that helps.
Yeah… that z hop definitely seems to be contributing to the issues. Interesting about the technique used by Bambu. Thanks for sharing!