Should Congress Stop Funding the War in Ukraine?
Vložit
- čas přidán 11. 04. 2024
- Since the beginning of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, the United States has provided more than $75 billion in aid to Ukraine, which has been directed toward military operations, economic support, and humanitarian assistance. As the war has gone on, members of Congress have questioned whether we have done enough to help the country and if continuing funding is sustainable. Those who want to continue funding Ukraine say the U.S. has a moral obligation to support the country in its time of need, it sustains alliances while serving strategic interests, and it demonstrates the U.S.’s support of democratic values and sovereignty. Those arguing it’s time to end the funding say that it diverts necessary resources that could go toward domestic and foreign priorities. They also question whether the funds are being used efficiently, whether the war is winnable, and whether providing military aid is genuinely contributing to a path toward peace.
With this crucial background, we debate the question: Should Congress Stop Funding the War in Ukraine?
Arguing Yes: John Mearsheimer, Political Science Professor at the University of Chicago and
Daniel L. Davis, Retired Lieutenant Colonel, Senior Fellow and Military Expert at Defense Priorities
Arguing No: Heather Conley, President of German Marshall Fund of the United States and Paula Dobriansky, Former Under Secretary of State for Global Affairs; Senior Fellow at Harvard Kennedy School’s Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs; Vice Chair, Atlantic Council Scowcroft Center for Strategy & Security
Emmy award-winning journalist John Donvan moderates
This debate was recorded live for an invite-only audience at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York City. @cfr partnership.
#opentodebate #debate #Russia #Ukraine #Congress #humanitarianassistance #military
===================================
Subscribe: / @opentodebateorg
Official site: opentodebate.org/
Open to Debate Twitter: / opentodebateorg
Open to Debate Facebook: / beopentodebate
===================================
Explore our latest newsletter insights and debater editorials.
Ukraine's Future in Peril. Read here: opentodebate.org/newsletter-should-congress-stop-funding-the-war-in-ukraine/
Sign up for our weekly newsletters here: opentodebate.org/newsletter/
It is horrifying how the audience is laughing at the people who want peace, and clapping for those who want to see the war continue. Deeply disturbing and dystopian.
Terrible 😢
I do agree
What are ye saying? Ukrainians are fighting for their homeland. They don't "want to fight". They have no choice but to fight. They didn't ask for this war. People suggesting that they should settle with Russia by giving them 20% of their territory and people.. that's ridiculously stupid and naive. Would America give away 20% of it's territory in settlement of a war it didn't start and a war where it has lost 100s of thousands of it's best men and in a war where 100s of thousands of it's children were stolen? No way, and they shouldn't. So why do Americans think Ukrainians are being unreasonable for not wanting to either?
Ukraine has no choice but to fight this brutal regime.
The GOP in America really has lost its way now. It has lost all credibility. It has sided with Putin and Trump instead of it's own country. What a bunch of traitors. The Democratic party should be going hard after this. They should be highlighting how trump is such a traitor and how he hates America and is always running it down and badmouthing it. What a fu#@king loser he is.
All of us outside the USA look on in disbelief at how anyone could think that loser Trump would make a good leader, nevermind that it's nearly half the population. Wtf??
What's even more baffling is that most of the American population (not just republican voters) believe he's better for the economy. Wtf? I bet they can't point to one piece of legislation that he enacted that had a positive effect on their economy, yet for some reason they "feel" he's better. Omg.
horrible, truly horrible
“Those dead Ukrainians are enriching our weapon makers. We must continue doing that.” That’s effectively what that two women have said.
yes, what a shame, what a cynical position. and they were also talking about "values"....
These two women out of their minds
These two women are pure idiots and know nothing. They sitting in their offices their whole life doing nothing and now discussing war with two people actually been in long wars and have huge fighting experience. No, Ukrainians dont want to die, maybe you need to go to front to show them how to fight? She is sick mentally saying that they are dying and not us and helping us modernizing our arm industry.
Yeah and Mearsheimer was really salient when he compared trench warfare to insurgencies in vietnam and afghanistan as a reason why our 60:1 economic advantage wont help us to make artillerty tubes in overwhelming capacity. Really stellar argument you ruskis have, lets roll over.
The two women are misinformed or lying. Either way they are delusional.
They are stubbornly indoctrinated.They are an integral part of the Deep State.
They are too educated and tied into the Blob to be misinformed. I think they are just evil. Like Vicky Nuland handling out cookies to the mostly peaceful protestors in Ukraine who overthrow a democratically elected government so we could install a corrupt puppet regime that does our bidding.
If you put this ladies in power we can get WW3. She is speaking about sending Nato troops in Ukraine and she is smiling... Now i see that we have others Victoria Nulands.
There were two men with military backgrounds who were arguing for a diplomatic solution, advocating for a ceasefire and peace. On the other side, there were two women with diplomatic backgrounds who were arguing for a military solution. I can't say who's right, but it was really a strange situation.
I can... and it's clear
I'm willing to tell you the answer and the situation wasn't strange
Men know military victory is unachievable for Urakine, but diplomatic.
Women support the military option because they have no idea about what it is and how it works, and their diplomatic tracks are primarily about money.
Most people criticize the two ladies because there would always be trouble if we put people in business or politics in charge of decision-making in such incidents.
It’s establishment vs out of establishment. Mearsheimer and the other guy are independent, those two women aren’t. If you find outside of establishment diplomats and within establishment military personnel to debate it would be reversed perspectives.
Guys are establishment,but wrong - so out of decisive circles. That's why they go on debating.
Marscheimer was crushed at Mink debate by Sikorski and US diplomat, he is no practitioner, he is just spewing his theories with no consequences...
I can, it's not these two unconscionable idiots talking about the "return on investment," about the deaths of more than half a million men.
Those women are clueless all they care about is their own pockets which they indirectly admitted... very painful to watch
Well said....they sounded nuts
Was about to write the same thing! These women that have absolutely no clue as to what it means to be on the front lines.
Seems Russia will have to nuke people before sanity prevails.
So true!
These "women" have no morals... or, their morals are must twisted!
What can you expect from a DUO Karen
The men : ukraine is losing
The women : the war benefits us
This is what evil looks like wrapped into educated quasi-intellectual women.
Stop funding this mess.
It's not a messits a war of.aggresion.
Lose all your credibility and see how all hell breaks lose if you give up on helping democracies...
Putin is a menace.
A tyrant.
A terrorist.
Putin is a tyrant.
Oh God, the ladies had no arguments just emotional hysteria. They refused to listen and respond, bar one time. Painful to watch and very disturbing that such people are in positions where they are making decisions that is destroying our collective future
Thank you Putin is destroying our peaceful future. Finally somebody gets it.
That seems to be a recuring theme these days by anyone who still supports Ukraine. They rarely cite any facts but just make an emotional argument. More often then not they simply act as trolls and pick fights with anyone critical of funding Ukraine and call those who raise real solid points Putin supporters or Pro Russian. Typical of the NAFO side. They don't have an argument they have a belief system and attack anyone who doesn't agree with them. It just shows they lost the argument.
2 men debating 2 women what do you expect?
@@ixco4732 Hey hey, I am a woman. There are many intelligent, level headed women!😉
@@akap_987 I would never say there aren't. I mean in general. Women make emotional decisions and men logical. But to be fair I think these women in the video were just reading American politics talking points because that's just their job.
that's bizarre. women supporting wars
What's so bizarre about it, Killary Clinton and Madeleine Albright were/are unrelenting war mongers.
A neutral Ukraine would be good for all of Europe, as it was before the coup d'état in 2014 that the NATO countries financed and organized with Victoria Nuland.
Perfect example is Austria
2014 coup is Russian propaganda that has never provided any evidence. There are multiple videos on youtube of Girkin and other Russians boasting about being the sole reason war in Donbas started.
You spewing propaganda here.
Victoria Nuland funded what?
Grants for Ukrainian people to study in USA universities?
Or money given to cultura centers studying English?
This is the level of disinformatia and Propaganda that you spew, shame on you. At least use sources that can be proven if you want to debate on this.
The American Military-industrial complex doesn't make billions and billions of Dollars in profit if the war in Ukraine doesn't happen. That's what it's all about for the US. Everyone in politics and the media knows that Russia does not wish to conquer and permanently occupy Western-Ukraine, Poland and other parts of Europe. Politicians in Washington and powerful people in the media might be stupid but they are not THAT stupid.
This is what happens when you let women make certain decisions. You get fuck all, and emotionally based outcomes that, as we know, never turn out well...
This is painful to watch, the two ladies are completely clueless.
Not clueless. Ruthless.
They aren't ladies.
But still some 🤡 are callping for them
Thank you John M. and Daniel Davis for your courage to speak the truth, rather than work for the lobbyists. How can anyone use expressions like “it’s a great bargain” or “it’s a good investment” or “what does it cost us” when hundreds of thousands of people are dying ?! How immoral are these women ?!
That doesn't sound like the truth to me.
It's especially galling when it involves forcibly conscripted soldiers.
@@GreenGoblinDK You wouldn't recognize truth if it was staring you in the face. When Zelensky is helicoptered out of Ukraine and the Ukraine Army turns it's guns on the regime your still going to be telling everyone Ukraine is winning and When Russian tanks are in Kiev your still going to be saying Ukraine can still win and needs more taxpayer money!
Because dollars rules America baby !!!
completely immoral
She is saying that Putin violated the Minsk agreement? What? The Minsk agreement was never implemented. And it's because the regime in Kiev ignored it and never implemented it. Nothing to do with Putin.
Poroshenko the president of Ukraine at the time, Francois Hollande president of France and Angela Merkel president of Germany at the time all signatories and guarantees to the Minsk accord have openly stated, "Minsk was never meant to be implemented, It was meant to buy time for the Ukrainians to build up forces for war with Russia".
@@seeker2118 Exactly. The woman in the video blames Putin for the Minsk failure. That is absolutely ludicrous.
@deadpelicanguy thank you for making stuff up!
@@GreenGoblinDK Do you enjoy being on the wrong side of history?
I thought I've misheard it. Thank you for confirming. So, she doesn't even know what she is talking about.
The main argument these two women had written on that piece of paper is that the money is going to the military industrial complex. 🤦🤦
Exactly lol
They are corrupt and mentally sick to the core.
John Meirsheimer ✅. Two Arrogant ladies ❌.
Two Deep State highly indoctrinated ladies.
Colonel Davis
Imagine if those two ladies ruled the world what would happen. They don't care about Ukrainian youths dying every single day
Actually they kind of do. The Biden Administration is full of people like that. They infest every administration. The CFR which hosted this debate regularly supplies advisors to every administration and one could argue the CFR really runs our country. After all Biden is super old and not really there so who's really making the decisions? His advisors, most of whom are CFR people like these two "ladies".
Two buffoons
How are they getting away with saying that the Russians broke the Minsk agreement 😞
Henry Kissinger Quote: “To be an enemy of America can be dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal.” This time, it's Ukraine
Amazing. Depends what friend means also. If you're friend is a bloodsucking vampire then yes
All the stupid kitchen warriors comment this phare. You are a moron
Someone once tried to prove me wrong with Israel.... ha.... okay, let's see how much corruption (lobbying) can go....
If it wasn't for America, Russia would take over everything over there. Instead it'll just be Ukraine.
Dude, Kissinger is a practicioner of political realism. One of prophets of this conception was side of this debate. You definitely not very smart.
These ladies can't seem to realize that sometimes what you want and what you can achieve aren't in alignment. They just can't stop from trying to damage Putin even though all they've done is make him stronger.
it's petulance
What's worse is they don't seem to care what happens to Ukraine. I think they know Ukraine can't win but don't care as long as it damages Russia. Even if that were true it would still be wrong and evil but of course the end result will be a militarized Russia and half a million dead Ukrainians along with a totally destroyed country.
Excellent point by Dr. Mearsheimer about the 21,000 additional Americans who died in Vietnam, because we continued to fight after loss was certain. Human life is precious, regardless of citizenship. People are suffering and dying in the Ukraine War. Their families and loved ones are devastated by their losses.
We ponder highly advanced, extraterrestrial civilizations visiting Earth, and we hope they are peaceful. Stop the killing.
The argument that possession of a vagina is possession of intelligence died in the first few minutes of the debate.
But, freedom, democracy and all that is good and decent.
I was talking about the casualties to someone, who I always thought highly of and when I have mentioned that (at that time) likely about half a million people died already in this war, his response (to my dismay) was "but most of them were Russian". As if them and their sacrifice would somehow not count.
Let the fascist imperialists win? How'd that go in history?
Excellent, except Ukraine is vietnam in this analogy.
Those two ladies need to come back and watch the recording in another 3-4 years to see the what they argued and what the ground reality is.. more lives and land lost.. person with minimum common sense can foresee what is going on...
You are asking for too much.
Yes,but this help given to Ukraine , 90% remain in USA to benefit the US economy and US workers.
I do imagine those workers as new ,modern kind of canibals,feeding their kids with human flesh and calming their thirst with human blood.
They don't have minimum common sense.
I swear if I see someone make the "good value cause its other people dying" argument I am going to throw up
You see this same failure to connect in a lot of debates.. One side gives reasons that we should desire or wish for something to be the case, the other side gives reasons for why something actually is the case. The yes side could have done more to preempt this line by saying "Yes, we admire Zelensky and the Ukrainians, Yes, we acknowledge their moral claim vis a vis Russia, and yes, we wish we lived in a world where such considerations could be determinative. Sadly, we don't.
my god listening to the 2 ladies made my head hurt 😑all emotions no facts why where they even there ? i had to stop this video so many times and go outside and cool down 🤬pure incompetence from the side that wants to keep funding
A really cynical view would be that they know darn well Mearsheimer is right and they just don't care.
@@paulmitchell2916 Maybe. More likely is that they truly are ignorant, they seem very caught up in propaganda and deranged.
😂😂😂I've been skipping their parts their just repeating some useless points
@@4l-frankomedo853 No, you have to watch it all and understand the magnitude of this problem. Where immature women start to like industrial scale artillery fire and field rabbits living in human carcasses. This is how it ends. lol
I get you man.
The rewriting of history on the pro-funding side is despicable.
and we thought women would be the kind peace loving less aggressive ones
mothers
You don't want angry mothers defending their sons against you.
To be fair I think a lot of these creepy elite institutions like the CFR and WEF use women to pitch their disastrous policies. I don't think these two women represent all women in the West. But they know people tend to be more sympathetic to women are more likely to take their side. It is ironic that a military man is a proponent of peace and these two "civilian" women advocate for more war and death and destruction. There's no doubt US foreign policy has a lot of slick messaging and tries to play on your emotions. But most people see through it. I am very heartened by most of the comments. It's clear public opinion is shifting on Ukraine and US foreign policy in general. Unfortuely the governments don't care.
🤣🤣🤣
Arguing against the uniblob in DC will get you cancelled. The sick logic that we need to fund war to increase shareholder value for Raytheon is perverse. 14:50
The argument about funding this conflict further is better for us is sick and ridiculous. First, it's borrowed money, at a point when the interest we pay on national debt is inching towards a trillion per quarter. Second, if you pump in money to buy more shells without expanding capacity, it merely increases the profit margin for the company owners, instead of growing jobs. Third, that money could be spent Ii n better ways at home for current needs of the tax payer. Fourth, the fact industries are making money of off a conflict where people are dying is sick.
Also a neutral state between NATO and Russia is in the benefit of both, as having them border to each other increases tensions and any false alarms do not have necessary time to be examined before taking action.
This war needs to stop for everyone's benefit. Russia does not look like the losing side, so negotiations is the best move at this time. It saves lives, resources, and prevents further escalation between NATO and Rusaia, which should be avoided at all costs.
That is the logical solution. But these powerful people don't understand logic. They will continue to fight the Russians to the last Ukrainian.
There are no shell to buy, Russia is producing 7x more shells than all of NATO.
Wow, Conley and Dobriansky need to join Disney as writers where these fictitious narratives have a perfect home. The amount of gaslighting is breathtaking.
Timestamps
(02:36) Professor John Mearsheimer's statement against continuing funding
(06:07) Ambassador Paula Dobriansky's statement for continuing funding
(09:43) Retired Lieutenant Colonel Daniel Davis's Statement against continuing funding
(12:43) President of the German Marshall Fund of the USA Heather Conley's Statement for continuing funding
(17:45) How does morality play into the arguments?
(22:24) Can Ukraine win?
(27:30) Will Putin get an appetite for expansion if he gets Ukraine?
(35:20) How does the Ukraine conflict relate to China's ambitions?
(38:17) What is the evidence that Putin is trustworthy?
(41:31) Can Ukraine go back to being neutral?
(56:21) Closing statements begin
The fact is that it is the West that hasn't kept its word with Russia. The Minsk Accords being a primary example.
“Tell that to the Baltic states, tell that to Poland, tell that to Romania and all the other countries of Europe in this case. Sorry, they are very concerned and actually we have kind of unanimity of purpose because of the concern about the threat.” Amb. Paula J. Dobriansky responding to Daniel L. Davis laying out the impossibility of a Russian invasion of NATO. I am a Norwegian citizen living in Norway, a country that borders Russia. I am in full agreement with both Daniel L. Davis and Prof. John Mearsheimer. Paula is no spokesperson for me.
Also, Columbia Professor Jeffery Sachs also makes similar arguments to those of Professor Mearsheimer. I think peace negotiations need to take place but my government (the US) opposes any peace negotiations to end the war as they have an all or nothing mentality in Ukraine, which could lead to the destruction of the Ukrainian state and/or them to lose more territory. If they stop now and the lines stay as they are now, then we can do a negotiation for peace deal to end the war
@@bud1239 I fully agree. I often watch prof. Sachs in Judge Napolitano’s podcast.
Remember when they were expanding NATO the argument they always used was that Russia and NATO countries could never fight directly because of the fear of nuclear escalation. Now they contradict that argument and say that Russia is likely to invade NATO countries. It can't be both.
Going by the same logic, let me also point out you do not speak for Norway.
yeah dawg , Oslo isn't really under threat but Tartu is
This isnt a debate. Its a walkover. Davis and Mearsheimer have totally demolished the other side.
And the other side make some outrageous claims and prognostications.
The participants in the discussion should declare if they have any conflicts of interests, for example any ties to the "defence" industry, investments or other ties.
ESPECIALLY the German Marshall Fund...
@@billhammett174 German Marshall Fund is not a fund by Marshall industry of Germany. It's the US fund given to post ww2 Germany for war recovery. This kinds of fund is also given to Japan and Europe too.
Like your father is Ukrainian
And how much they’re being paid by the Kremlin.
@@jnfunvufb, “Given to Germany and Japan” ???
Shouldn’t Germany and Japan be paying for all the damage they caused?
Nobody had any objections in the West when Nikita Khrushchev gifted Crimea to Ukraine in 1958.
When your first argument is that it's okay that people die in a foreign country because it funds the Military Industrial Complex you've lost.
That was the only point of the two corrupt idiots.
They couldn’t care any less about Ukrainians. One of the ladies even mentioned how it’s not US troops that are dying, as if to say we shouldn’t care as much
She threw the possibility of Nato troops in Ukraine like it was nothing, scary that those kind of people are in charge, let alone the fact that most of their arguments where about the Economy of the war which is insane when people are dying!
The two ladies are no match to real scholars like Dr Mearsheimer. They just cannot figure out their own rationale.
They couldn't think their way out of a wet paper bag.
His argument breaks down pretty promptly after he dismantled theirs, which he did in fact to do. Ukraine absolutely needs to negotiate, but not with Russia. That's pointless. Ukraine needs to negotiate with at least one of the nuclear states of NATO to attain a mutual defense treaty, even on a bilateral basis only, to secure what is left of Ukraine if it agrees to give up what it has lost. That can be accomplished with zero input from the Kremlin. It would also squarely put the ball back in Russia's court if it wants to continue fighting and, in effect, start a new conflict with these stakes dramatically raised
They are just paid imperial propagandists.
The 2 ladies are living in a fantasy world.
@@jamestodd8147 We call people like these ladies high school girls.
“Ukraine is a laboratory right now”😧
Amazingly they're being very frank about their host industry's goals 😅
A Lab, that's what it has always been.
Came from ladies in quite contempt fashion, they more looks like witches to me
Painful to watch. I have been against the U.S. involvement in this war from the beginning
Russia will just keep pushing the boundaries of NATO if you let them. Untill you need US boots on the ground.
Do those two ladies know what they are talking about ?
The two ladies have made it clear in their arguments that Ukraine is fighting a proxy war on behalf of the West, which is why the US should continue to fund the war. The continued loss of Ukrainian lives is not a problem, because Ukrainians want to fight. That's an attitude that sickens Mearsheimer. The ladies did not make a serious argument as to how Ukraine can win the war with only material support while Ukraine is running out of soldiers to fight. The only way for Ukraine to win is if NATO joins the fight against Russia, except that will lead to nuclear war and no western leader will support. Mearsheimer's prediction in the closing argument is likely to pan out. More Ukrainian and Russian soldiers will die before the war ends, and Ukraine will be in a much worse position than it is now.
And the Ukrainian government officials were stupid enough to believe Nuland will save all of them. They were foolish enough to brainwash their citizens to hate on Russia and to make them want to go to war against Russians. This is going to end very badly for the Ukrainian leaders when people will realize their sons brothers and fathers died for ambitions of corrupt officials.
The two women learned all knowledge about wars from CNN
Mearsheimer’s intellectually honest and objective in his assessment. The other pair can’t see through the fog of “WEST IS BEST” and have no grip on the realities. It’s just tough pointing and empty propaganda which sounds nice to rally around, but it’s uneducated nonsense. They genuinely can’t accept that the West might be responsible for provoking Russia, and that other parts of the world don’t share their worldview, so shockingly, repercussions follow. All the accusations in the world can be thrown Putin’s way, but it doesn’t matter. The strategic reality is that Ukraine’s GOING to lose this war, and stalling it to further push America’s own interests is a horrible tragedy. These fools continue to push a horrible, horrible strategy and it’ll cost many more lives. They don’t care, though - their mental gymnastics and blindness won’t ever let them see their own culpability. Truly sickening.
Sickening. Yes, that is what Mearsheimer said, and I have never seen him say it more emphatically.
how can you convince the general public when all the media is encouraging the war to continue?
Every time when they say how great is to fight Russians with no loss of American lives they have to be reminded of Ukrainian blood on their hands.
Can M explain what is the value of freedom and independence? How much would the US be willing to pay not to be occupied by a foreign nation?
@@GreenGoblinDK GG, all freedoms come with responsibility, a lesson that should be learned early in life. In the case of Ukraine, Russia was willing for Ukraine to remain an intact and free nation if it agreed not to join NATO, but instead to remain neutral. There you have it: freedom in return for responsibility in strategic affairs.
The United States, my country, is willing to pay a lot to support their concept of freedom. Let's see: 3 million dead in Korea, 3 million in Vietnam, 200,000 in Afghanistan, 300,000 in Iraq, 500,000 in Syria, 30,000 in Libya, perhaps 500,000 in Ukraine, 32,000 so far in Gaza. We are willing to pay with the lives of other people and the destruction of their nations. How many of those wars were successful in promoting freedom or democracy?
Because of this two women this feels like watching a Monty Python sketch.
They did have kind of an "onion news" feel to them. Is this shit real??
She debates in her spare time.
But seriously, I agree.
@@raymondwu9483 650,000 Ukrainians dead thanks to USA support since 2022 April/May
She would think twice if her children was in the fight...
Ukraine is basically like that knight who had both his legs cut off and still keeps fighting. Arguing Ukraine can sill win is like waging a bet that guy who lost his limbs can still beat the other guy.
They are stereotypical career women that do not really care about anything. Of course they are all in on the Ukraine-train.
America first. We don't need to be involved in this bs.
Thank you Open to Debate for showing the true motives of the CFR.
nice name dude
This was clearly going on since after 2014 or before , since 2005 when Georgia and Ukraine were invited to join NATO ! Ukraine is the bigger catastrophy as seen in Georgia and Armenia now !
Most of our Generals have never served in combat but Danny has to those of you that don’t think his rank was high enough.
Wow got em…. And you are??? A 5 star general? What makes you so qualified to judge that behind your screen and keyboard? Next time try to argue that guys points and if you can’t then just move along instead of trying to dunk with those weak one liners.
It took me almost no time to know which side has the more intellect & knowledge of the real situation of the war. The gentlemen has facts while the other side were reading from a piece of paper parroting lies that their masters wrote..😢😢😢
while he other side is parroting foreign masters
It is sad that both women talk mainly how this additional funds would help American economy and military industrial complex and at the same time forget about thousands of dead people and their families. It is such a sick argument, talking about that as an investment while people are dying because of that...
Ukraine has been blaming everybody for not supporting them enough. While some people in the West agree, most others just find it shocking. It's like it's the world's fault when they can't defend themselves.
When the mujahedeen fought the Russians, they just tried to make do with whatever they were given. When the Vietnamese fought the French and the Americans, they just thanked for whatever given, shut up and fought. They understood it was their business, and nobody else.
The former advisor to president of Ukraine, i don't remember his name, has commented that his compatriots are arrogantly entitled and i can't agree more.
Before the war, Ukrainians had 30 years to build their own nation. And what had they done with it? They elected corrupt presidents in exchange for sweet empty promises. They repeatedly threatened to stop the gas to Europe to ask for more money from Russia on top of what had been contractually agreed. Then they applied to EU because they think the West will miraculously bring wealth to them so they don't have to do anything. They applied to NATO because they think the West will miraculously protect them and they won't have to do anything.
The Ukrainian mindset always seems to be "someone has to do something for us".
I wouldn't blame Ukrainians so much for this. They knew how to satisfy both Russia and the west. Yes, lots of corruption, but what made the situation untenable is that the west didn't want Ukraine to stay neutral. Every escalation that followed had this agenda at its core.
The country became destroyed rapidly like russia in the 1990s but didn't have a strong leader to control the oligarchs from plundering everything, until the US took control of it in 2014 made it into a client state
I don't blame them for advocating for their country or cause. What I find repugnant is how many people are being drafted against their will in Ukraine to fight and all those Pro Ukraine bots out there who support it. Every time I hear them talk about Ukraine fighting for freedom and democracy I think of the 30 year old Ukrainian who tried to flee the country got captured and sent to the front and is now dead. And yet I don't know any Pro Ukraine person who's moving to Ukraine to enlist to fight the Russians they just want to use the Ukrainians as cannon fodder and then pat themselves on the back and think they are morally superior because of it.
You shall take into consideration the role of US, esp. CIA in the policy of Ukraine.
The No side are awfully generous with other people's lives and money. They should enlist in the Ukranian army and serve at the front if they are so bold. Chickenhawks
Putin said "There are no historical arguments to justify the claim that a separate Ukrainian nation existed prior to the Soviet period" According to the lady, it is interprated as Ukrainian never existed as a country?
Hearing the closing statements I've gained a deep sense of respect to this John Mersheimer.
A model of civilized discussion. Sad it doesn’t have more views, as we can all learn from this excellent panel.
The ladies, with all due respect where abhorrent, revolting, and they almost succeed in making you believe you are watching fiction.
Excellently organized debate and respectful participants.
"Democratic Ukraine" - is one of those shortest jokes.
Ukraine has had elections in 2019, 2014, 2010... Unlike Russia, they didn't have to kill their opponents. Most of their corruption was linked with Russia.
Democratic Russia is a far better joke.:
@@GreenGoblinDK I've noticed that dispite your supposed Scandinavian name you are mostly acting like a typical predictable Ukrainian Troll.
If you have no presidential elections, clearly you are democracy)))
@@Maria_Makr Haha. Just like in Russia? That is just cute. Russia is a trashbin democracy. Stop invading Ukraine and they can have an election. Maybe you should have a look at your own "election" ?
Ukraine has pushed the Russian Black Sea fleet back to Georgia? 😂😂😂 OMG what’s the woman smoking?
Interesting debate, thank you for hosting it.
Who said that men were warmonger
Ukraine flag in bios are all emotion and no logic. She brings up Taiwan are 36 min. Yeah, that’s another reason NOT to pay for this, you aren’t making Taiwan more secure by losing resources and making Russia more dependent on China.
The other lady also said we should approach war with a “winning mindset”. That is what we do and it is a disaster lmao. We thought we’d win all these past wars and our recent history has been failure after failure. It’s like they think making a moral argument (a pretty bizarre one given that it was the US that pushed to end Ukrainian neutrality to begin with) somehow makes up for a lack of a actual logical strategy to achieve objectives in reality.
Very well said. 👊
She's right that it's not good for us to be humiliated in front of the world. She doesn't seem to consider that it's for those sort of reasons we shouldn't pick fights we can't win or triple down on a losing cause.
They just can't get past their hatred of Putin.
These women are just Victoria Nuland clones lol they are so souless, is actually amusing.
Mic drop moment from mr mearsheimer 58:00 🥶🥶🔥🔥🔥 exposing their moral depravity
Yes and that actually exposes the foundation of the entire DC think tank military industrial complex
And then the two ladies continue hammering the benefits of dy ing Ukrainians to the US. Two psychopaths
Somebody dropped a mic on his head when he was a child.
@@Houtontwhy do you enjoy looking at dead children
@@Houtont Hahahahaha....hohohoho...oh, what wit! I'm still drying the tears from my eyes!
What is interesting to me is that these ladies prior to the debate have probably prepared themselves from the John Mearsheimer's academic papers and studied from his work. Because he is the authority for the Great Powers politics subject.
I find it striking that the No side is all female and appealed to exclusively to emotions and not logic.
I find the argument that supporting Ukraine means supporting US jobs, defence manufacturing, etc. to be a little ghoulish.
Mearsheimer, the master of the room.
What remarkable patience Mearsheimer has, patiently listening to these woamns spouting nonsense and ignoring the hard facts and logic of his arguments. At 52:16, it's priceless to see him shake his head.
i've heard no such thing. Just a russian apologist
Imagine paying for these womens "thoughts"
"Well war crimes tend to get negative press" Except when its Israel doing the war crimes...
Exactly. Then they are not the clear war crimes but concerning events that the US government want a thorough investigation to be done (by Israel, of course).
The women are diplomats yet they are advocating for war. Do you see the irony here ? 😂😂😂😂
I was doing something else simultaneously, and couldn't pay close attention to this. But seemed to me that the worst argument on the pro-funding side was "Ukraine is so innovative rn!" That seems true. But they're innovative because they have to be; they don't have the men or materiel to win this. And innovation is hard. I'd rather have a massive numerical advantage than be outnumbered and innovative. Innovation only goes so far, and I don't see any reason to think there'll be enough for UKR to win.
Who can tell? American advisors, NGOs helping Ukrs invent. Such mixture since the Gold revolution. Aside from that rating a proxy country on innovation is pretty funny.
If no-one believes a war is lost, is it still lost?
If you hear the ladies speak about how Ukrainians are fighting and dying and that it's in the best interest of the US for them to continue fighting and dying as it's a cheap way for the US to weaken Russia (and therefore the money should go to Ukraine), I almost start to wonder how many bodies they have left behind themselves acquiring the positions that they hold today. Cold-blooded and ruthless I say...
War mongers 😂😂😂
She doesn’t care how many Ukes die propping up her neocon fantasy world
1:04:55. She thinks the mobilized men are "choosing" that outcome? Oh dear, that is a profoundly problematic frame of mind.
This is not a debate. This is a waste of time for John and the viewers. It clearly has audiences who are against John.
This ladies are warmongering
The gentlemen are enabling fascist imperialists
This debate blew my mind with the fact that two women - a gender that is supposed to be for peace and love argue for war and two men - a gender that waged wars for millennia argue for peace.
Wow! It's truly incredible. Women are for war and men are for peace.
Women can be as hawkish and war-loving gender as men if not more. That's truly incredible. I wonder how the world would look like if women were those who declare wars. Perhaps we would have 4 or 5 world wars instead of two.
whatever their sexes, the men seem to comprehend the human cost of war. the side arguing "No" just coldy analyze and spend other people's lives in futility.
@@thrashertm I strongly disagree. Paula and Heather are not making any kind of analysis, cold or otherwise. They're repeating State Department talking points, almost word for word, without engaging with any of their opponents' arguments. I believe they truly believe what they're saying - they care about democracy, liberal values, and the theory that American hegemony, on average, brings stability and peace to the world. They're arguing out of pure ideology, not analysis.
It's a beard. The Blob uses women to push their Great Reset agenda. They don't represent all women though. They just count on emotion to sway the public because they know emotion can override reason and cause people to support things they shouldn't like how Hitler used emotion to stir up German Nationalism. Notice these women didn't spend a lot of time articulating how Ukraine can win but just relied on emotion, it's a strategy to sell a war not convince you because they know if they were to try to pursued people to support Ukraine based on rational and reasonable grounds nobody would buy it because they have no reasonable argument.
I just realized this after reading. This should be a model for men logic vs women emotions
2 names: Madeleine Albright, Hillary Clinton.
19:42 is she mimicking him? they really aren't serious are they.
Snarky buthurt high school girls arguing in favor of continued industrial scale trench warfare. Wow, I couldn't have imagined this.
She is casting a curse on him.
GOOD people are courageous people who speak the truth. WICKED people are cowardly people who go along with the lies.
this aged well? we see how US is standing for sovereignty and human rights in Gaza! we also see what is happening on front lines in Ukraine
Interesting setup: two women in favor of war VS two men against war.
Women standpoint was: If USA profits from war, war is good.
Dudes win.
1:03:46 we know from archival sources that the japanese themselves understood they could not defeat a fully mobilized US military, but they were desperate and rolled the dice at pearl harbor. nice flat out misrepresentation of history tho
These ladies simply do not have a clue. They seem to be principally concerned about the interests of the MIC. Mearsheimer is absolutely right.
I would not be surprised if there was a connection to or even their funding by the MIC.
Women…Why we having this kind of ppl who decide US policy ???
According to Zelenski, the monet is not charity but an investment (for shareholders of MIC )
Sounds like staying neutral for Ukraine was a far smarter idea than all this.
In 2008, long before 2014, at the NATO summit in Bucharest it was announced that Ukraine was on its path to joining NATO. It would defy belief to imagine that this was done without Ukraine’s knowledge/consent. And In 2014, after an illegal US-sponsored coup of a democratically elected government in favor of an aggressive pro-NATO government, it became clear where Ukraine is heading. Hardly neutral.
Reminder: neutrality condition is explicitly written in the Declaration of Independence.
Read a fucking book! Ukraine was attacked in 2014 because it opposed against corruption and oligarchy. They didn't choose NATO, they just wanted to become democratic and independent! Yanukovich was literally a gangster and a cruel authoritarian! Ukraine would have been perfectly happy as a neutral state, working with boths sides. You're suggesting that the good people should have given up the fight for a better live in one of the poorest countries in Europe? No!
What you wrote sounds like Ukraine chose this war, this is absurd and sinister. Ukraine chose democracy, independence and prosperity, and Russia tries to destroy them for it!
@@Here0s0Johnny In 2008, long before 2014, at the NATO summit in Bucharest it was announced that Ukraine was on its path to joining NATO. It would defy belief to imagine that this was done without Ukraine’s knowledge/consent. And In 2014, after an illegal US-sponsored coup of a democratically elected government in favor of an aggressive pro-NATO government, it became clear where Ukraine is heading. Hardly neutral.
Reminder: one of the terms for Ukraine to become independent was neutrality and it’s explicitly stated in the founding documents.
@@Here0s0Johnny In 2008, long before 2014, at the NATO summit in Bucharest it was announced that Ukraine was on its path to joining NATO. It would defy belief to imagine that this was done without Ukraine’s knowledge/consent. And In 2014, after an illegal US-sponsored coup of a democratically elected government in favor of an aggressive pro-NATO government, it became clear where Ukraine is heading. Hardly neutral.
@@lg2058 ( I wrote same and my reply to him was deleted - Johnny is very uninformed, but he would like to lecture : )
@@Here0s0Johnny For those who want to learn the facts about the Ukraine conflict, I can recommend this interview that Colonel Daniel Davis does with Colonel in the intelligence service Jacques Baud who served in Ukraine for several years on a NATO mission.
czcams.com/video/1cHIyuBifY4/video.html
This is where the danger lies. Little did the world knew how injudicious & morally ignominious when a country at war ( Ukraine) was actually a pawn for jobs creations & supports the US economic. That's ignoble.
Clearly, as quoted by embasador Paula that proudly said " US is only supply aid & not fighting " in Ukraine war & 68 billions of aids represent a meagre less than 4% of the total US defence budget & not even a high price & it supports over 90% of American workers & factories , economic growth especially in jobs creations.
This is very dangerous & little did Ukrainian knew they may be pawned for Economic developments in US. This would also tell the world that the war that may happen in Indo Pacific regions may actually driven by the same objectives ( Economic developements in US ) . In another words, some countries in the Pacific region may contrue that they would also be a pawn for that purposes. Wow ! Congratulation on countries that would be pawned for scarification in US economic ritual . Also, the longer the war , the larger the war, means the better it is as it can support even greater & longer economic growth in US. Didn't that also means pawn the American life as well. That is not sustainable as it is more of a self deception/ignifatuus.
This is no different to say that, if one is in a bad shape, one will become robbers & robbing all over. Similarly what had happened during covid shutdown in which groups of youth attacking the high end shops & rampaging & looting. The culture of easy ways out.
Ukraine war clearly shows no way Ukraine could achieve triumphant but only to sustain US economic needs & the possibility that the needs would be prolong or extended in indo pacific region.
For Ukraine, most probably, applying or subcribed to the principle of ' plodder ' , slow & steady & hard work may achieve its goal. How long would it be then ?.
For better world
Disclaimer - For the purpose of academic, debate & enlightenment only.
End this disgraceful spectacle.
Next, they should host Putin and Biden.
You helped to put them in that situation in the first place, now cut the losses and help them rebuilt instead becourse you own it to them.
The women already admitted US defense contractors get 90% of "Ukraine Aid" and the economic "support" are loans to make them into debt slaves and BlackRock takeover
Who are these two ladies? Which caves have they been living in for them to make statements regarding this war?
Daniel will be proven wrong...I believe his opinion is not purely his and his finances should bw investigated.
When the truth hurts your feelings you scream Russian puppet. How typical.
Dad to his son: "You can't go out now, it's dark outside and there are a lot of thugs around."
Mom : "Let him go out and have fun."
Dad : "No, he's not going out."
Mom : "Yes, he's going out, he's my son too.
To Americans it's business as usual, not the deaths, mayhem and destruction. That speaks volumes. Profits over life.
This is what I love about America. Open debate and exchange of ideas.
It's nice. Too bad the US Government never debates foreign policy, they just make decisions and inform us afterward.