Paul, I hate to break this to you, but you paced off an isosceles triangle. And my high school math grades are best left unmentioned, although I got things together in college.
After many many years, i finally get it. Speaker placement and what a different it makes. Plus side must be the thrilling of move those babies around. Discovering all kinds of new materiale from my huge music Collection. So yes, speaker placement is No. 1 ✌️❤️🇩🇰
I believe Covid 19 has caused a paradigm shift of allowing a lot of people to work from home and many of us can now enjoy listening to music while working at home in a dedicated home office room. The need for audiophile desktop setups are therefore on the rise.
@@josealfredfernandes I bought some JBL305P MkII for a gaming setup and found them to be quite disappointing. I also have some KEF LS50 W2 that sounds reasonable (currently using for my work setup). But now I want to buy a bigger screen for my desktop and I'm trying to find some desktop speakers that are about 7 inches in width (cabinet), with ribbon tweeters and can work well with a subwoofer. I was considering Adam T5V but they are also too wide. The KEF LSX 2 sounds inferior to the Adam T5V. I also have some Yamaha HS5 that aren't with the resolving qualities I am seeking. What I am trying to find are excellent desktop speakers that are not trying to make deep bass because they are optimized for a subwoofer and are using audiophile drivers.
@@scottscottsdale7868 PS Audio should launch a pair of speakers with subwoofer for audiophile desktop use. The standard problem for desktop speakers is that they are either small or poor sounding or big and trying to make all bass. I need an excellent sounding desktop speaker that is truly optimized for relying on a subwoofer to keep it as small as possible (bass can drop fast under 80Hz). It could be sold as the "audiophile desktop setup" with subwoofer included. Ideally it connects directly to the desktop setup with USB and can run 192kHz 24 bits or DSD directly. I don't need app support in the speakers (like what KEF does) as my desktop setup already has all my music services onboard. The drivers should be the most outstanding ones e.g. a premium ribbon tweeter for the treble (from FR30 or similar).
The dude is a freaking engineer he does not need to sell his book he is the CEO of one of the most successful high end stereo stores in the country and one of the nicest people in the business
my set-up is in 10 x 11 ft room( it was a bedroom ) and rf7 III with amp tube sound very ( very ) good, thanks to your advises : acoustics panel ( absorbers in the back wall, difusers in the front wall, and a mix on the sides wall. And absorbers on the celling at first reflection point. very happy with that !!
Just for the geometric record- and equilateral triangle has 3 equal sides. If you walk straight up and perpendicular, the same distance as the length of the base, from its center, (the way Paul did in the video), you haven't really traced an equilateral triangle. I'm just being picky- It's close enough for acoustical purposes, I'm sure.
If you set up your speakers correctly they should sound good anywhere in the room, if you set them up incorrectly they will sound bad anywhere in the room. When I am listening to advices like those I ask myself, what the heck those guys are talking about? So, "sweet spot" is here, if I move 10 inches aside I cannot hear good music? Bullsh.t. If I cannot hear good music 10 inches aside, I guarantee you that I cannot hear it at the "sweet spot" too.
@@catkeys6911 No problem. People are interested in the real geometry, like, what would be in studio. I described it in another post. I'll repeat it here (just for you, :) ). One peak of the equilateral triangle should be behind your head. Left speaker should point to your left ear, right speaker to your right ear. The distance between ears is 8.5". I've read somewhere that the ideal distance for listening should be like this: for 5.25" woofer it is 6', for 6.5" it is 8', for 8" it is 10', for 10" it is 12'. So, the equilateral triangle should have sides, lets say for 6.5" woofer it should be 8' 8.5". Frankly, I don't know how this applies to double woofer. For example, two 5.25" woofers account like it is one 6.5" power-wise, two 6.5" account like one 8", and so on. Just for the fun of it, ;) .
@@MarioPetrinovich Or how it would apply to separate sub woofer(s). And a room's individual acoustics. Fortunately (in a way), low frequencies don't locate well to the human brain, anyway- by their nature, they are (what I guess you could call) low resolution. I appreciate you sharing your data, by the way 👍👍.
I love your videos. Would it be too much to ask for whomever is putting up the videos to link to things like the book and equipment you refer to in the videos? It would make it much easier ;)
I had a similar room, and by experimentation, I found that the rule of third and golen ratio were less important to small rooms, esp. when bookself speakers were used. Walking around the room and speaking at the speaker's posotion to find the most natural sounding spot may work better. I would start with a place where the tweeters can be 6 feet apart while setting 7 feet away from the speakers.
The rule of third and golden ratio are nonsense. Sure there's rooms where it could be the best option, but most of the time it's not so they shouldn't be seen as default setting.
@@jasonkillsformomy They are called "rules" because they are aesthetic principles for organic balances - e.g. they are also used in architecture, visual arts, photography, etc. In acoustics, they help to reduce the chance of putting a speaker on a spot where standing waves are exaggerated. In a large enough room, which I also have the luck to have, they do work. But in a smaller room, my experience is that a longer distance between the listener and the speakers, as well as a wider separation between the speakers are by far more important.
@@hoifcheu7533 "But in a smaller room, my experience is that a longer distance between the listener and the speakers, as well as a wider separation between the speakers are by far more important." Both of these statements are untrue. The closer you sit to speakers the less room interaction via reflection points you have. The downside is that for near field listening it's advisable to use coaxial speakers so you don't get driver separation. Another possible negative may be that you don't not get as wide and high sound stage compared to far field, but this depends entirely on the room, acoustics, speakers and preference. Almost all music is mixed and mastered near field.
@@jasonkillsformomy Yes, I agree that room interaction is also a consideration, and an important one. However, room interaction is not an "evil" to be avoided at all cost. If the reflection is not overly much and too short a distance from the reflective areas, the sound can still remain natural and the reflections (if and only if is tuned and treated well) can enrich the tone colour and the overall sense of space. I do nearfield listening a lot when I work (film editing or sound editing for concert recordings). Monitoring is better done in nearfield listening or even with headphones. But when I want to enjoy the music, I want the space and the distance (1) to relax, (2) to get a more coherent sound from the speakers (yes, even with coaxial speakers), and (3) to get better bass in some cases. In the small room I had, I tried 4 feet and nowhere in it sounded good. Then I realized that my speakers just did not sound as good in the bass when they were too close together. Paul calls that "midbass coupling" elsewhere. In brief, I try not to be caught by any one factor so that I can be brave to experiment. In a 10 feet room, 5-6 feet speaker distance will leave 2-2.5 feet from the center of the speakes to the side wall, which is the least recommendable distance for sidewall reflection. That is why I would use 6 feet as a starting point.
As long as the speakers are the same distance from you as they are to each other you will still get a soundstage. I live in a very narrow room and my speakers are 6' away from me and each other. The sound is great.
most important factor is to make sure both speakers sequel to the listener and equal to each other and equal to any boundaries to eliminate prevent comb filtering what is the biggest problem, and make sure you have nothing in front of the listener to the speakers.
For an equilateral triangle, should you be counting off 7 feet from the center of the loudspeakers to the listening position? Or, one of the other points of the triangle?
@@jameslind7299 To be completely precise, left speaker towards your left ear, and the right speaker towards your right ear. The peaks of triangle should be, two at the centerlines of speakers, and one behind your head. The ideal listening distance between speakers and ears should be, 6' for 5.25" woofer, 8' for 6.5" woofer, 10' for 8" woofer, 12' for 10" woofer. Distance between two ears, 8.5".
Paul… I’m not sure having viewed the website… does the CD / SACD actually come with the book, or one needs to purchase the book and SACD separately? Additionally, I’ve found the rule of 3rds works great over-all, but what seems to give me the best place to start w/ initial placement of the speakers and results in a rock solid center image, excessively huge sound stage (breadth and depth) is : speaker placement in my 154” rectangular room: from side wall: room width * .276 (154" x .276) 42.5" from rear wall: room width *.447 (154" x .447) 68.8" My listening seat isn’t best right at the apex of the triangle due to peaks and nulls… rather about 9” back from the peak and about 7” to the right of it yields zero peaks / zero nulls - and an uncanny listening experience. (My room is just about 12’8” wide, 10 Ft tall, and about 21 ft long.) This has worked for me with both bookshelf monitors, stand mount monitors, and floor standing speakers as well.
You people should see my master bedroom where a 5.4 Tannoy/Denon exists and it is so pleasing to have a home theatre setup available at my disposal when I feel like staying in bed and enjoy either the music or a movie 🍿🔊 rather than going to the living room for that reason. Way to put my audio visual equipment to good use after all 😉
I just listened to The FR-30, excellent speakers. Sad they don’t disclose dispersion and response, but who does. I wish to see distortion vs SPL figures and dynamic compression. One thing I noticed is that the bass draws tons of power. The amplifier used had Wattage peak meters and yeah, you can demand 50wpc in no time and you want more loudness so definitely they want subwoofer power rating behind them. Else, great job! I unfortunate they didn’t have more power behind them to push them further. But very satisfying loudness with 120wpc already, it’s just not unlimited power. They are as sensitive as a stand mount, very very large, and true full range. No need for subs, excellent bass speed. They do pack a punch, after all radiating surface is a bit over 15” woofers. Great work on those speakers! Cheers!
"Sad they don’t disclose dispersion and response, but who does." Sadly almost none in the audiofool market doo. In the studio monitor world it's much more common. Home audio speaker manufacturers that disclose measurements on the top of my head are: KEF, Ascend acoustics, Buchardt audio and Arendal sound.
@@jasonkillsformomy indeed. Bass is extremely present at mid volumes. I suspected there is a hump in the lower bass because you get a lot of perception in the lower region at not so high volume. That’s uncommon. Nonetheless I found they had a very good sound, but I am with you. We might not hear measurements, just as we don’t experience language. Yet, language is a very helpful abstraction of reality that helps you understand experience. Measurements are like that, a language, not the phenomena itself. I don’t get anything I can’t understand. Good stuff that the store that sells them is very nice and I’m sure if you were serious buyer you could take a mic with you and get some rough idea with REW. But that’s a hassle.
@@BastianUllr At these price points you should be able to demo the speakers at home. Dealers and any other room for that matter is totally different than you're own. And if you're looking for speakers in this price range I hope you have invested in good acoustic treatment.
@@jasonkillsformomy for bass sure, but I’m fine with knowing at least the midrange and up dispersion. Or at least with experience you get to have an idea of what you like and how to work things out. I use prefer now some mid dispersion, around 60 degrees -6, and prefer narrow dispersion and live room over the opposite. But other than that, yes I’m with you. Still, even if auditioned at home, I want more info before dropping that much. Either way, it’s rare practice to know that much about what you buy. I don’t think most Audi owners know how to change a tire, let alone anything about their car. I’m not really looking to buy something like these FR-30. These speakers are not only for the sound, but for aesthetics. A bit like an expensive watch, you can get accurate time for less. You can get that sound quality for less (not cheap, but for less) but it won’t look as nice and you’ll need subwoofers and so on and so forth. With these you don’t need subs. I just like to get to know things, but I don’t see myself needing anything else than what I own unless I move to a much larger space. I have treatment that’s effective to my target SPL And application. There is nothing to improve (me being a practical folk) - timbre is fine, distortion is below 1% above 80hz at target peak SPL. I can notice for example that such a large speaker as the PS audio accelerates lots of air in a transient, so they have a very visceral bass/attack. Radiating surface is just above 15”, so that’s just expected. So certain things I can tell I can’t do with what I have, but at the same time I’m fine with the trade off as I just can’t fit a pair of speakers that size, nor a pair of 15” subs, so I have to manage with 12” subs and smaller 12” studio monitors. Let’s say it just feels as if you were further from the action. Some guys get a car not because they appreciate machines, but their own excitement out of a sports event. They measure an engine for how much it roars down the straight and not for how impressively complex, reliable, efficient, or else. So we have some chasm in audiophile community too. Some also care for impressive engineering, others just want to hear fast machines roar and feel excited at the end of the session.
Paul. I searched Amazon & your website for the book & CD. I find the stereo book but No Speaker guide. Please point me to the correct location. Thanks.
You really don't understand math. To get an equilateral triangle you should measure your 7' between the speakers and then take a line 60° from the line between the speakers Where the lines cross makes up the equilateral triangle. And yes, those lines from the speakers should be 7' too. Happy listening.
I’m contemplating moving my speakers from my living room to my bedroom because the reflections in my living room are god awful. Only thing is the rest of my family is on the opposite side of my bedroom wall😂
simple common sense goes along way when setting up a good room audio experience, no need to spend money on a book for something that is fairly easy to understand.
It occurred to me while watching this.... A sub YT channel, or periodical video series dedicated to assisting folks with setup inquiries could be a big hit!
@4:00 "...and then a little bit of tow-in" Paul, tow-in is speaker specific. Every speaker has different tow-in amounts, for them to sound best. And, yes, there will be many speakers that have the same tow-in as other speakers. But to state "...and then a little bit of tow-in", as if all speakers should match your FR30's tow-in, is wrong. Some speakers have zero tow-in. Paul, you have to know this. No one should have to point this out to you.
He didn’t say every speaker was the same in that regard lol. Yea you’re right but it’s not only the speaker that dictates this but quite possibly you (personal preference) then your room, not just what speakers you have.
In addition, the smaller the room the greater the need for bass trapping. Treat as much as possible, then bring back the MF and HF with diffusion/scattering. Excessive LF decay times are the challenge... it destroys bass clarity and definition.
Hm, B&W in their video guide say that speakers are already tuned up for the room acoustics of the average room, so, if your room is average, per what they say, you shouldn't need large acoustic treatment (that goes for consumer speakers, not for professional speakers): czcams.com/video/Vb6AknZhbZ4/video.html
@@MarioPetrinovich All due respect, their marketing department will claim most anything to generate sales. The engineering department knows full well... it's simply the physics, and it's unavoidable. Speakers being "tuned" or voiced... refers to the frequency domain. However the time domain is where extensive bass trapping is needed. There's no getting around it. As I mentioned, it's the low frequency decay times that obscure and muddy up bass response. A bass notes hits... yet doesn't dissipate prior to the next bass note... thus clarity and definition is lost due to the leading edge of the next transient is obscured by excessive energy not decaying fast enough. I've not viewed the linked content, but I'll go there now and check it out.
@@MarioPetrinovich Having just watched the video, I can say it's absolute entry level tips and material. There's nothing I disagree with, it's just the beginning basic setup info... ie., don't invert polarity, etc. It's all good All the best
@@FOH3663 Yes, I just wrote the answer to you in the very sense that your second answer is. See what I wrote: "Yes, my problem is that I don't have respect, I trust my ears, I am not too much respectful to anything else. Measuring instruments measure only one thing, the only way they can, and they cannot measure psycho-physics. In discussions like this we usually have the problem that people are unable to get the basics right. You come to their rooms, and the most expensive speaker sounds like they are worth 5 bucks, and in some other case 5 bucks speakers sound like they are the best in the world. Have you encounter such cases? And the guy pleads for help, please help me, anybody, I spent so much money, and I got pure crap. And then they get the answer like, you know, if you do something, who knows what, your sound will improve from 98 % quality, to 98.45 %, only, you must do this, and you must do that. I don't have any of what you are saying, and yet, my bass is very good, I am really enjoying it, and the guy has really big issues, his quality is, like 20 %, and you are explaining to him how to improve from 98 % to 98.45 %. And nobody actually knows the basics right, but everybody knows all those high scientific things."
@@FOH3663 Oh yes, the answer, actually, is always the same, if you buy my book (speakers, amplifier, and so on), where everything is explained in detail, then you'll be in heaven. It is like, if you go to this Michelin restaurant, you'll get the best food. But nobody explains how you should use knife and fork. And you know why? Because they don't know it themselves. There should be basic guidance, but, when you put everything in equilateral triangle, you suddenly realize that it doesn't work, that this isn't it. Eventually, it improves things like, from 20 % to 21 %. Excellent, the book was worth it, I improved the sound. Don't you say. And yes, all those scientific things really do work, the instruments were right, you really managed to improve the sound by 1 %, excellent. The only problem is, it still sounds like crap.
The thing about having hardly any toe is it creates an incredibly narrow sound stage basically giving you only 1 single listening position that actually sounds good in the entire room. I’m sorry but in my lifetime of experimenting with speaker positioning and placement I have to say that nothing rings truer than Paul Klipsch’s approach which is corner loading whenever possible, toed at 45 degrees. 99 times out of 100 it always sounds the best. I’ve never ever heard a system set up the way this video is showing that didn’t sound like complete garbage unless you’re smack dab in the middle. This guy has a lot of knowledge and good information but this method of speaker setup couldn’t be further from good information. I’ve tried countless set up methods over the years and this is simply not a good way to do it
For atmos channels, does it matter if you have 2, 4, or 6 to the mix? As in, when a movie has an atmos track, how many atmos channels are active? Are all 6 always active? One more, why are your amps so close to the floor?
Dolby Atmos channels are all active, just like any other channels! But I find when listening to a Dolby Atmos mix, there's very little audio that comes out of them compared to the rest of the channels, after all it's object-based audio!
How do i make my homebuild 18 element 2000 hexagon sound good? Many audeofiles listening saying best speakers i'we ewer heard. Guess it is the way of getting the sound and the soul of human music out to the world for us all to enjoy. Music aint about quality but love to humaty. The feeling of love is not about math. Follow your hart follow your sence of what make you a real living human.
0:42 these clips are getting a bit surreal - either Paul forgot the title of his own book ("the stereo" rather than "the loudspeaker") or he jumped the gun again. None of PS Audio, Amazon US or Amazon UK have a book he wrote called "the speaker"
Also, watching the clip until its end - Paul's practical geometry exercise gave me headaches - mixing up vertex with apex, altitude with side, equilateral with isosceles... Disappointing
Hmmmm you just wrote a book on speaker setup? And your not good at math? Hmmm. So yes understand no money in free advise. Lol. Most of America have poor rooms and will never set up sound correctly. Hence big bucks on speakers? That person was asking about small room set up to which that would be almost hit or miss. I have never had a nice room except many years ago with a set of 801 s2, still the sound was amazing. Then it became my bedroom. Never again. Until now and it just happened with a set of legacy speakers, that magic came back. My newest room does not appear to be ideal but it is working.
_The Audiophile's Guide to Setting Up Speakers in a Small Room_ *Step 1:* Spare no cost getting a larger room. *Step 2:* Spare no cost getting better speakers. *Step 3:* Spare no cost.
Paul, I hate to break this to you, but you paced off an isosceles triangle. And my high school math grades are best left unmentioned, although I got things together in college.
The thumbnail is fabulous
😂
His book and CD are really very good. I use over and over again every time I get a new piece of gear. It is invaluable.
I have almost the same room size, 14.5 *10 feet. Small rooms, small speakers. Thank you, Paul, for this instructive video!
I’m in about 19x14, I hate letting a room dictate what speakers I get. 8 10” and 2 18”. With some other woofers
After many many years, i finally get it. Speaker placement and what a different it makes. Plus side must be the thrilling of move those babies around. Discovering all kinds of new materiale from my huge music Collection. So yes, speaker placement is No. 1
✌️❤️🇩🇰
I believe Covid 19 has caused a paradigm shift of allowing a lot of people to work from home and many of us can now enjoy listening to music while working at home in a dedicated home office room. The need for audiophile desktop setups are therefore on the rise.
Use any processor/DAC, combined with JBL 308P MKll studio monitors..
Your application seems to be near field listening, so.. this will suffice.
Marantz, Gustard, Emotiva, etc
@@josealfredfernandes I bought some JBL305P MkII for a gaming setup and found them to be quite disappointing. I also have some KEF LS50 W2 that sounds reasonable (currently using for my work setup). But now I want to buy a bigger screen for my desktop and I'm trying to find some desktop speakers that are about 7 inches in width (cabinet), with ribbon tweeters and can work well with a subwoofer. I was considering Adam T5V but they are also too wide. The KEF LSX 2 sounds inferior to the Adam T5V. I also have some Yamaha HS5 that aren't with the resolving qualities I am seeking. What I am trying to find are excellent desktop speakers that are not trying to make deep bass because they are optimized for a subwoofer and are using audiophile drivers.
This is a very valid point. Music got me through the most difficult of times. PS Audio makes it so easy. Enjoy!
@@scottscottsdale7868 PS Audio should launch a pair of speakers with subwoofer for audiophile desktop use. The standard problem for desktop speakers is that they are either small or poor sounding or big and trying to make all bass. I need an excellent sounding desktop speaker that is truly optimized for relying on a subwoofer to keep it as small as possible (bass can drop fast under 80Hz). It could be sold as the "audiophile desktop setup" with subwoofer included. Ideally it connects directly to the desktop setup with USB and can run 192kHz 24 bits or DSD directly. I don't need app support in the speakers (like what KEF does) as my desktop setup already has all my music services onboard. The drivers should be the most outstanding ones e.g. a premium ribbon tweeter for the treble (from FR30 or similar).
- Setting up speakers in a small room? .... - buy my book. 😂
The dude is a freaking engineer he does not need to sell his book he is the CEO of one of the most successful high end stereo stores in the country and one of the nicest people in the business
I had a strict Dad too. He was a teacher. Strict Dads don't get enough love!
I just watch because Paul's videos are always really cool.
my set-up is in 10 x 11 ft room( it was a bedroom ) and rf7 III with amp tube sound very ( very ) good, thanks to your advises : acoustics panel ( absorbers in the back wall, difusers in the front wall, and a mix on the sides wall. And absorbers on the celling at first reflection point. very happy with that !!
Just for the geometric record- and equilateral triangle has 3 equal sides. If you walk straight up and perpendicular, the same distance as the length of the base, from its center, (the way Paul did in the video), you haven't really traced an equilateral triangle. I'm just being picky- It's close enough for acoustical purposes, I'm sure.
If you set up your speakers correctly they should sound good anywhere in the room, if you set them up incorrectly they will sound bad anywhere in the room. When I am listening to advices like those I ask myself, what the heck those guys are talking about? So, "sweet spot" is here, if I move 10 inches aside I cannot hear good music? Bullsh.t. If I cannot hear good music 10 inches aside, I guarantee you that I cannot hear it at the "sweet spot" too.
@@MarioPetrinovich I was only making a comment about geometry. I'm a retired designer, so I guess I'm a little picky about that.
@@catkeys6911 No problem. People are interested in the real geometry, like, what would be in studio. I described it in another post. I'll repeat it here (just for you, :) ). One peak of the equilateral triangle should be behind your head. Left speaker should point to your left ear, right speaker to your right ear. The distance between ears is 8.5". I've read somewhere that the ideal distance for listening should be like this: for 5.25" woofer it is 6', for 6.5" it is 8', for 8" it is 10', for 10" it is 12'. So, the equilateral triangle should have sides, lets say for 6.5" woofer it should be 8' 8.5". Frankly, I don't know how this applies to double woofer. For example, two 5.25" woofers account like it is one 6.5" power-wise, two 6.5" account like one 8", and so on. Just for the fun of it, ;) .
@@MarioPetrinovich Or how it would apply to separate sub woofer(s). And a room's individual acoustics. Fortunately (in a way), low frequencies don't locate well to the human brain, anyway- by their nature, they are (what I guess you could call) low resolution. I appreciate you sharing your data, by the way 👍👍.
Is that another book? I have your audiophiles guide (1st book?) and you explained the setup in that book.
Would really be nice if you could include links to all your books and set up cd at the bottom
"Hey! Is my set-up good for my room? Big love!"
"Yooo, I have a book and CD tho. Also I now know the months! =D"
😂😂😂
I love your videos. Would it be too much to ask for whomever is putting up the videos to link to things like the book and equipment you refer to in the videos? It would make it much easier ;)
That thumbnail looks kinda strange Paul. But it’s ok I’m open minded. To each his own. 😂😂😂
Sorry Paul, but that isn't how you measure an equilateral triangle. 😀
Ya had to do a head turn, Paul you measured that all wrong!!😂😂
I had a similar room, and by experimentation, I found that the rule of third and golen ratio were less important to small rooms, esp. when bookself speakers were used. Walking around the room and speaking at the speaker's posotion to find the most natural sounding spot may work better. I would start with a place where the tweeters can be 6 feet apart while setting 7 feet away from the speakers.
The rule of third and golden ratio are nonsense. Sure there's rooms where it could be the best option, but most of the time it's not so they shouldn't be seen as default setting.
@@jasonkillsformomy They are called "rules" because they are aesthetic principles for organic balances - e.g. they are also used in architecture, visual arts, photography, etc. In acoustics, they help to reduce the chance of putting a speaker on a spot where standing waves are exaggerated. In a large enough room, which I also have the luck to have, they do work. But in a smaller room, my experience is that a longer distance between the listener and the speakers, as well as a wider separation between the speakers are by far more important.
@@hoifcheu7533 "But in a smaller room, my experience is that a longer distance between the listener and the speakers, as well as a wider separation between the speakers are by far more important." Both of these statements are untrue. The closer you sit to speakers the less room interaction via reflection points you have. The downside is that for near field listening it's advisable to use coaxial speakers so you don't get driver separation. Another possible negative may be that you don't not get as wide and high sound stage compared to far field, but this depends entirely on the room, acoustics, speakers and preference. Almost all music is mixed and mastered near field.
@@jasonkillsformomy Yes, I agree that room interaction is also a consideration, and an important one. However, room interaction is not an "evil" to be avoided at all cost. If the reflection is not overly much and too short a distance from the reflective areas, the sound can still remain natural and the reflections (if and only if is tuned and treated well) can enrich the tone colour and the overall sense of space. I do nearfield listening a lot when I work (film editing or sound editing for concert recordings). Monitoring is better done in nearfield listening or even with headphones. But when I want to enjoy the music, I want the space and the distance (1) to relax, (2) to get a more coherent sound from the speakers (yes, even with coaxial speakers), and (3) to get better bass in some cases. In the small room I had, I tried 4 feet and nowhere in it sounded good. Then I realized that my speakers just did not sound as good in the bass when they were too close together. Paul calls that "midbass coupling" elsewhere. In brief, I try not to be caught by any one factor so that I can be brave to experiment. In a 10 feet room, 5-6 feet speaker distance will leave 2-2.5 feet from the center of the speakes to the side wall, which is the least recommendable distance for sidewall reflection. That is why I would use 6 feet as a starting point.
@@hoifcheu7533 Never heard the term "midbass coupling" before. Seems to be a bigger problem in car audio.
So when will this new book be available? I can’t find it on Amazon. Does it come with new reference music or will it use the previous reference disc?
Sorry. It should launch in about one month. August. There's all new music for it.
Wondering why u have the speakers so close to each other. Dont u lose soundstage?
As long as the speakers are the same distance from you as they are to each other you will still get a soundstage. I live in a very narrow room and my speakers are 6' away from me and each other. The sound is great.
most important factor is to make sure both speakers sequel to the listener and equal to each other and equal to any boundaries to eliminate prevent comb filtering what is the biggest problem, and make sure you have nothing in front of the listener to the speakers.
Can you provide a link to the book? I can find the original book but not The Audiophile’s Guide - The Loudspeaker.
Same ? !!!! Hoping that its just a dedicated chapter(s) section of the “Guide” …guess I’ll see, it’s arriving in a week!
I think the sweet spot is just out side the equilateral triangle much like you described.
For an equilateral triangle, should you be counting off 7 feet from the center of the loudspeakers to the listening position? Or, one of the other points of the triangle?
He doesn't know. He told you already: he's not good at math. :))
Centre of the two loud speakers out to the listening position
@@jameslind7299 To be completely precise, left speaker towards your left ear, and the right speaker towards your right ear. The peaks of triangle should be, two at the centerlines of speakers, and one behind your head. The ideal listening distance between speakers and ears should be, 6' for 5.25" woofer, 8' for 6.5" woofer, 10' for 8" woofer, 12' for 10" woofer. Distance between two ears, 8.5".
Paul… I’m not sure having viewed the website… does the CD / SACD actually come with the book, or one needs to purchase the book and SACD separately?
Additionally, I’ve found the rule of 3rds works great over-all, but what seems to give me the best place to start w/ initial placement of the speakers and results in a rock solid center image, excessively huge sound stage (breadth and depth) is :
speaker placement in my 154” rectangular room:
from side wall: room width * .276 (154" x .276) 42.5"
from rear wall: room width *.447 (154" x .447) 68.8"
My listening seat isn’t best right at the apex of the triangle due to peaks and nulls… rather about 9” back from the peak and about 7” to the right of it yields zero peaks / zero nulls - and an uncanny listening experience.
(My room is just about 12’8” wide, 10 Ft tall, and about 21 ft long.)
This has worked for me with both bookshelf monitors, stand mount monitors, and floor standing speakers as well.
The book and SACD are sold separately. I have both.
@@abecollins2266 - thanks my friend
You people should see my master bedroom where a 5.4 Tannoy/Denon exists and it is so pleasing to have a home theatre setup available at my disposal when I feel like staying in bed and enjoy either the music or a movie 🍿🔊 rather than going to the living room for that reason. Way to put my audio visual equipment to good use after all 😉
I just listened to The FR-30, excellent speakers. Sad they don’t disclose dispersion and response, but who does. I wish to see distortion vs SPL figures and dynamic compression. One thing I noticed is that the bass draws tons of power. The amplifier used had Wattage peak meters and yeah, you can demand 50wpc in no time and you want more loudness so definitely they want subwoofer power rating behind them.
Else, great job! I unfortunate they didn’t have more power behind them to push them further. But very satisfying loudness with 120wpc already, it’s just not unlimited power. They are as sensitive as a stand mount, very very large, and true full range. No need for subs, excellent bass speed. They do pack a punch, after all radiating surface is a bit over 15” woofers.
Great work on those speakers! Cheers!
"Sad they don’t disclose dispersion and response, but who does." Sadly almost none in the audiofool market doo. In the studio monitor world it's much more common. Home audio speaker manufacturers that disclose measurements on the top of my head are: KEF, Ascend acoustics, Buchardt audio and Arendal sound.
@@jasonkillsformomy indeed. Bass is extremely present at mid volumes. I suspected there is a hump in the lower bass because you get a lot of perception in the lower region at not so high volume. That’s uncommon. Nonetheless I found they had a very good sound, but I am with you. We might not hear measurements, just as we don’t experience language. Yet, language is a very helpful abstraction of reality that helps you understand experience. Measurements are like that, a language, not the phenomena itself. I don’t get anything I can’t understand. Good stuff that the store that sells them is very nice and I’m sure if you were serious buyer you could take a mic with you and get some rough idea with REW. But that’s a hassle.
@@BastianUllr At these price points you should be able to demo the speakers at home. Dealers and any other room for that matter is totally different than you're own. And if you're looking for speakers in this price range I hope you have invested in good acoustic treatment.
@@jasonkillsformomy for bass sure, but I’m fine with knowing at least the midrange and up dispersion. Or at least with experience you get to have an idea of what you like and how to work things out. I use prefer now some mid dispersion, around 60 degrees -6, and prefer narrow dispersion and live room over the opposite. But other than that, yes I’m with you. Still, even if auditioned at home, I want more info before dropping that much. Either way, it’s rare practice to know that much about what you buy. I don’t think most Audi owners know how to change a tire, let alone anything about their car.
I’m not really looking to buy something like these FR-30. These speakers are not only for the sound, but for aesthetics. A bit like an expensive watch, you can get accurate time for less. You can get that sound quality for less (not cheap, but for less) but it won’t look as nice and you’ll need subwoofers and so on and so forth. With these you don’t need subs.
I just like to get to know things, but I don’t see myself needing anything else than what I own unless I move to a much larger space. I have treatment that’s effective to my target SPL And application. There is nothing to improve (me being a practical folk) - timbre is fine, distortion is below 1% above 80hz at target peak SPL.
I can notice for example that such a large speaker as the PS audio accelerates lots of air in a transient, so they have a very visceral bass/attack. Radiating surface is just above 15”, so that’s just expected. So certain things I can tell I can’t do with what I have, but at the same time I’m fine with the trade off as I just can’t fit a pair of speakers that size, nor a pair of 15” subs, so I have to manage with 12” subs and smaller 12” studio monitors. Let’s say it just feels as if you were further from the action.
Some guys get a car not because they appreciate machines, but their own excitement out of a sports event. They measure an engine for how much it roars down the straight and not for how impressively complex, reliable, efficient, or else. So we have some chasm in audiophile community too. Some also care for impressive engineering, others just want to hear fast machines roar and feel excited at the end of the session.
2:18 seems my speaker setup is done very well. That sounds real.
I thought the measurments should be between the cone centers and not the outside of the boxes
Does your book cover setup for home theater systems? Keep up the great content!
Hi Paul, still not seeing the Loudspeaker book on PS Audio or Amazon. Can you let people know when it will be available?
Yes I too can not see the book.
Which book does he mean? I am only aware of The Audiophiles Guide: The Stereo.
Paul. I searched Amazon & your website for the book & CD. I find the stereo book but No Speaker guide. Please point me to the correct location. Thanks.
How do I get that book and CD . I do have audiophile guide the stereo but not the loudspeaker!
Where's this new Audiophile's Guide book? I can't find it.
Super thanks .
Is it center to center of the speakers or edge to edge of the speakers. With Cornwall's that can be the difference of feet.
He won't answer you, he wants you to buy his book and CDs
You really don't understand math. To get an equilateral triangle you should measure your 7' between the speakers and then take a line 60° from the line between the speakers Where the lines cross makes up the equilateral triangle. And yes, those lines from the speakers should be 7' too. Happy listening.
I guess you had this triangle wrong :) It’s not The hight that should be equal to the width, but the sides.
I’m contemplating moving my speakers from my living room to my bedroom because the reflections in my living room are god awful. Only thing is the rest of my family is on the opposite side of my bedroom wall😂
That is not an equilateral triangle the way you describe it
simple common sense goes along way when setting up a good room audio experience, no need to spend money on a book for something that is fairly easy to understand.
I have no space for such big speakers :) I'm thinking about Genelec...
I can see you're not good at math. What you counted off with your steps is not an equilateral triangle
A scalene triangle is the absolute worst of all in terms of dog-doo; and stepping in doggie-doo is the very definition of "bad toe-in".
Greeting from malaysia...
It occurred to me while watching this.... A sub YT channel, or periodical video series dedicated to assisting folks with setup inquiries could be a big hit!
@4:00 "...and then a little bit of tow-in"
Paul, tow-in is speaker specific.
Every speaker has different tow-in amounts, for them to sound best. And, yes, there will be many speakers that have the same tow-in as other speakers.
But to state "...and then a little bit of tow-in", as if all speakers should match your FR30's tow-in, is wrong.
Some speakers have zero tow-in.
Paul, you have to know this. No one should have to point this out to you.
He didn’t say every speaker was the same in that regard lol. Yea you’re right but it’s not only the speaker that dictates this but quite possibly you (personal preference) then your room, not just what speakers you have.
In addition, the smaller the room the greater the need for bass trapping.
Treat as much as possible, then bring back the MF and HF with diffusion/scattering.
Excessive LF decay times are the challenge... it destroys bass clarity and definition.
Hm, B&W in their video guide say that speakers are already tuned up for the room acoustics of the average room, so, if your room is average, per what they say, you shouldn't need large acoustic treatment (that goes for consumer speakers, not for professional speakers):
czcams.com/video/Vb6AknZhbZ4/video.html
@@MarioPetrinovich
All due respect, their marketing department will claim most anything to generate sales.
The engineering department knows full well... it's simply the physics, and it's unavoidable.
Speakers being "tuned" or voiced... refers to the frequency domain.
However the time domain is where extensive bass trapping is needed. There's no getting around it. As I mentioned, it's the low frequency decay times that obscure and muddy up bass response. A bass notes hits... yet doesn't dissipate prior to the next bass note... thus clarity and definition is lost due to the leading edge of the next transient is obscured by excessive energy not decaying fast enough.
I've not viewed the linked content, but I'll go there now and check it out.
@@MarioPetrinovich
Having just watched the video, I can say it's absolute entry level tips and material.
There's nothing I disagree with, it's just the beginning basic setup info... ie., don't invert polarity, etc.
It's all good
All the best
@@FOH3663 Yes, I just wrote the answer to you in the very sense that your second answer is. See what I wrote:
"Yes, my problem is that I don't have respect, I trust my ears, I am not too much respectful to anything else. Measuring instruments measure only one thing, the only way they can, and they cannot measure psycho-physics.
In discussions like this we usually have the problem that people are unable to get the basics right. You come to their rooms, and the most expensive speaker sounds like they are worth 5 bucks, and in some other case 5 bucks speakers sound like they are the best in the world. Have you encounter such cases? And the guy pleads for help, please help me, anybody, I spent so much money, and I got pure crap. And then they get the answer like, you know, if you do something, who knows what, your sound will improve from 98 % quality, to 98.45 %, only, you must do this, and you must do that. I don't have any of what you are saying, and yet, my bass is very good, I am really enjoying it, and the guy has really big issues, his quality is, like 20 %, and you are explaining to him how to improve from 98 % to 98.45 %. And nobody actually knows the basics right, but everybody knows all those high scientific things."
@@FOH3663 Oh yes, the answer, actually, is always the same, if you buy my book (speakers, amplifier, and so on), where everything is explained in detail, then you'll be in heaven. It is like, if you go to this Michelin restaurant, you'll get the best food. But nobody explains how you should use knife and fork. And you know why? Because they don't know it themselves. There should be basic guidance, but, when you put everything in equilateral triangle, you suddenly realize that it doesn't work, that this isn't it. Eventually, it improves things like, from 20 % to 21 %. Excellent, the book was worth it, I improved the sound. Don't you say. And yes, all those scientific things really do work, the instruments were right, you really managed to improve the sound by 1 %, excellent. The only problem is, it still sounds like crap.
The thing about having hardly any toe is it creates an incredibly narrow sound stage basically giving you only 1 single listening position that actually sounds good in the entire room. I’m sorry but in my lifetime of experimenting with speaker positioning and placement I have to say that nothing rings truer than Paul Klipsch’s approach which is corner loading whenever possible, toed at 45 degrees. 99 times out of 100 it always sounds the best. I’ve never ever heard a system set up the way this video is showing that didn’t sound like complete garbage unless you’re smack dab in the middle. This guy has a lot of knowledge and good information but this method of speaker setup couldn’t be further from good information. I’ve tried countless set up methods over the years and this is simply not a good way to do it
For atmos channels, does it matter if you have 2, 4, or 6 to the mix? As in, when a movie has an atmos track, how many atmos channels are active? Are all 6 always active?
One more, why are your amps so close to the floor?
Dolby Atmos channels are all active, just like any other channels! But I find when listening to a Dolby Atmos mix, there's very little audio that comes out of them compared to the rest of the channels, after all it's object-based audio!
OMG they are still using feet as a measure :/
Other than that, great video as others.
How do i make my homebuild 18 element 2000 hexagon sound good? Many audeofiles listening saying best speakers i'we ewer heard. Guess it is the way of getting the sound and the soul of human music out to the world for us all to enjoy. Music aint about quality but love to humaty. The feeling of love is not about math. Follow your hart follow your sence of what make you a real living human.
Yes, but what if I don't have a heart?
The Book Audiophile Setup "THE LOUDSPEAKER" not in PS Audio Octave Records???
0:42 these clips are getting a bit surreal - either Paul forgot the title of his own book ("the stereo" rather than "the loudspeaker") or he jumped the gun again. None of PS Audio, Amazon US or Amazon UK have a book he wrote called "the speaker"
Also, watching the clip until its end - Paul's practical geometry exercise gave me headaches - mixing up vertex with apex, altitude with side, equilateral with isosceles... Disappointing
Hmmmm you just wrote a book on speaker setup? And your not good at math? Hmmm. So yes understand no money in free advise. Lol. Most of America have poor rooms and will never set up sound correctly. Hence big bucks on speakers? That person was asking about small room set up to which that would be almost hit or miss. I have never had a nice room except many years ago with a set of 801 s2, still the sound was amazing. Then it became my bedroom. Never again. Until now and it just happened with a set of legacy speakers, that magic came back. My newest room does not appear to be ideal but it is working.
Infomercial
Is it on Kindle Paul?
Not yet, unfortunately. I was a bit premature. Look for it next month. Thanks!
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio looking forward to it
老大，房间需要有隔音材料的呀，不然调大音量就会听到很多墙壁反射过来的混响：）
How much Red Bull did you drink this morning?
Paul, you walked off an Isosceles triangle, not an equilateral triangle.
Whut??? Californaaaiaah? LOL!!
Look at all the goofy nerds trying to dab on Paul's triangle. Guess what, he's filthy rich and you're not.
First it was the "air lens" and now it's a loudspeaker book; but neither exists!
Same old nonsence
x
_The Audiophile's Guide to Setting Up Speakers in a Small Room_
*Step 1:* Spare no cost getting a larger room.
*Step 2:* Spare no cost getting better speakers.
*Step 3:* Spare no cost.
Step 4: Sell your house and build a huge custom made listening room with a tiny kitchenette attached to it, in which to place your family.
Or .... forget all this b.s and invest in a pair of awesome headphones