Can u guys put a 120hz highpass on his mic and please fix the noise floor it doesnt suit an audiophile channel. Otherwise great tips as always, these videos have helped me having a nice hifi
At long last: A concise explanation of exactly *why* first order reflections are unwanted in a good audio system! I've been hearing this advice for decades, with no explanation of what those reflections do, or why they are unwanted. Somebody give this man a medal! : D
This was a very informative video, but I will also add three other very important things to this info Chris stated here... 1. In such a small, relatively cramped listening space, TWO subwoofers might be a little bit excessive, especially if you are in an apartment building, (which it sounds like you might be), because the resulting bass, even when adjusted and set up properly for YOUR listening space, might very well be WAY too much, overwhelming, &/or *annoying* to any of your neighbors who might be sharing a wall, ceiling, or floor with you!... In such a small space, you'd probably be just *fine* with only ONE, high quality subwoofer, as long as it was placed correctly and adjusted properly to your room and satellite speaker capabilities. 2. In the decision to keep either the bookshelf speakers on stands OR the tower speakers, I would first consider the brand & model and the overall quality level of each pair of speakers, and keep the pair with the best sound quality, whichever pair that might be, and then go from there in proper room placement procedures for whichever type you keep... If both pairs are of equal or similar brand and sound quality then go with the bookshelf speakers on the stands, for the reasons mentioned in this video, and get a really high quality and "musical" subwoofer to augment them in the bass, but on the other hand, if your tower speakers are of a much higher-end brand and sound quality than your bookshelf speakers are, then I'd consider keeping the tower speakers instead, and just place them the best you can within your limited space for the best imaging at your listening position. You *may* still use a subwoofer with the towers if it's really wanted or needed, but if the bass from the towers is already sufficient and it's not overly "boomy" in the position the speakers have to be in for space considerations, then you might not even need to get an (additional cost) subwoofer... That decision at least partially depends on which pair of speakers you have are actually better quality speakers and more worth your keeping in the long term. 3. With *either* pair of speakers, if you are having any annoying reflections & boundary "over or under enforcement" issues with the wall behind the speakers, AND because of the severely limited room space you can't really move the speakers into an "ideal" listening position, then you can try treating the wall behind the speakers with some of that acoustic foam or acoustic paneling that you often see in professional music studios and movie theaters, but if you can't find or afford that, OR you just don't like the look of it, then you can also try placing something else soft on that wall behind the speakers like some artwork or a tapestry or something, but that won't work nearly as well as proper/ideal speaker placement in the first place! Small listening spaces are really difficult to get the sound just right in so experiment with a few different possibilities and see what sounds best to you and yet is still asthetically pleasing, as I know the final setup will have to pass the "wifey test"!... Good luck to you!
@Fat Rat Yeah, that's cool, I have more than one sub also and it sounds awesome inside my listening space, but I live in a house in a relatively nice neighborhood, and where I actually have some *outside space* between me and my neighbors, but even so, when I have my stereo on even at a moderate volume, you can definitely hear it from outside my house, so I try not to play it TOO loud! Lol!... In contrast, I've also lived in a 1BR apartment before, in years past, and that was fine for me at that time in my life, but I remember how "paper thin" the walls in that place were, and that every single tiny little sound would transfer through the walls to the neighboring apartment, everything from dishes clanging in the kitchen, to just simple TV watching, the neighbors fucking, (lol!), and even moderate *talking/conversation* could be heard from the other apartments immediately around me, especially the 5 that I shared any walls, ceilings, or floors with, (I was right in the middle of other apartments to my left, right, up, down, and to the other side), so ultimately it totally depends on that guy's individual living situation and layout of his listening space and building which one sounds best and is going to be most acceptable to everyone around him, not just him and his wife, but also possibly his immediate neighbors!... If that guy in the letter in this video has the *money AND space* for 2 subs, that *can* provide more evenly distributed, slightly "fuller" bass throughout the room, IF they're properly set up and adjusted, but if he is living in a overly cramped apartment or townhouse/condo that shares at least one or 2 wall(s) with his neighbors, (which it sounded like he might very well be in that situation), and/or if he is on any kind of relatively lower budget, he *may* only want OR be able to get *one* relatively high quality, as "musical" as possible for that money sub, and go with that option, however, *none* of us here in these comments really know all that much about anything in regards to his living situation, so there's definitely no need for any of us to start "arguing" about it, as many of us "audiophile nerds" tend to do, even when it doesn't really matter to any of us! Lol!... I was just trying to give that guy some additional suggestions and options to consider, (IF he even ever reads any of our comments in the first place!), so let's just leave the options open for him to try for himself!... I know we both are very knowledgeable about audio and we both make some really good comments on the videos on this channel because of that knowledge and experience, but we are also both very opinionated, so really all we can or ever should do is to just put that info and knowledge/experience out there in our comments and then let the reader decide for themselves which info to actually try and utilize for their own specific circumstances, so let's both just let it be what it is here, because without anyone here actually seeing that guy's listening space and building layout, *none* of us *really* know the "best" way for him to improve his auditory experience, simply because he didn't give any of us enough total information to work with here! Without actually seeing that guy's listening space and living situation we're all just totally *guessing* what would work "best" for him, given our OWN priorities and living spaces... those of which may not be at ALL like that guy's priorities or space to consider!... Anyway, that's enough about that. Have a great day dude! :)
@@scottking2821 Well usually I would also say yes to that, but not *always* in every situation or circumstance... There are MANY things to take into consideration when setting up the "best" sound in any given listening environment, *especially* when/if a person's budget and/or spacial considerations have to also be considered in the situation!... I help design and install moderate to high-end audio and home theater systems in (usually) custom homes for a living, so I know there is MUCH more to take into consideration than always just a general "rule of thumb" about something! Each house/building and listening space, AND each individual client's living habits and realistic "family functionality" absolutely MUST be taken into consideration when planning out the "best" sound system for any given person's tastes and habits, and their realistic budget and living situation... I also know that REL subs ARE really great subs, (we have used them a few times before too), BUT they are ALSO quite pricey, (and yes, I know; you kinda do "get what you pay for" to a certain extent, especially with subs and speakers), but that is only ONE of MANY options that guy has to try out, so saying that "2 subs are *always* better than 1" isn't necessarily always true in every situation, when all things are taken into account!... I'm not trying to "disagree" with anyone here, (because I usually actually agree with what you said in many cases), but ALL things have to be considered here, and since neither of us know what that guy in the letter in this video's living situation really is, all we can do is make some *suggestions* for him to maybe try, but just making an outright "blanket statement" that it *always* has to be any certain way for the "best" sound, isn't necessarily a true or good thing to do!... Read my other reply here to FatRat's comment...
@Fat Rat LOL! Yeah, I know what you mean man!... I like playing it loud sometimes too! But since I am in a house with a bit of yard around it on all sides, I can do that reasonably well during the day when everyone's awake, but I'm still cautious to get too loud, as not everyone in the neighborhood, (as good as mine is), needs to know I have a big stereo system, as my college days taught me when I had all of my equipment stolen over Christmas break one year! That really sucked! :( Plus, now I'm just more courteous of my closest neighbors, which is an older couple who go to bed by around 9PM every day!... But it's all good, even with that self imposed limitation on my "blasting abilities", I'd still MUCH rather be living here in this house I'm in rn than EVER go back to a worse neighborhood, with more potential thieves, OR any kind of apartment complex! (Been there, done that, never again if I can at all help it!) Oh, and yes, I DO tend to "write a book" with every one of my comments, but that is just one of my traits, having Asperger's and all!... I have NO problem carrying on a VERY detailed and in-depth conversation with anyone and about ANY topic!
I know, I'm being pedantic... hey, that's oftentimes what we do. That said, moving from one sub to multiples... always better. Subs being a simple volume velocity device, I can't think of a scenario whereby 2 subs isn't a positive step. Also, and more relevant to the OP's situation Chris mentioned; Near-field subwoofing is an excellent tool for diminishing LF egress outside the room. Proximity to the sub necessitates a natural lower dBspl needed for adequate spectral balance. As an aside, implementation of Crowson actuators for the tactile bass component, should facilitate lowering of the audible LF level and subsequently lowering the energy outside the unit. Also as a FOH engineer, I'd be remiss in my audiophile duties if I didn't point out a VERY powerful tool to combat LF bothering neighbors etc., is multiple subs w/cardioid steering. Two subs located and DSP aligned in such a manner whereby they sum in the direction of the primary listening position, ... thus nulling LF energy in every other direction. Thanks
Ivor Tiefenbrun of Linn used to say that, as a designer, he had no control over, or knowledge of, the room where his speakers would be placed but he could guarantee that it would have at least one wall and a floor and, consequently, favoured "back to the wall" designs . This was considered a much more practical approach rather than aiming for a flat anechoic response; he knew his products were going to be used in "real world" rooms not anechoic chambers and the bass response, in particular, was tailored accordingly. By ensuring his designs were intended to be used hard against a wall and floor mounting he automatically minimised several performance issues caused by unknown parameters in the end users environment.
Mic sounds hot in general. Maybe start by just lowering the gain on the mic? Noise floor is high overall. Thanks Chris and the PS Audio team for the content as always!
Fat Rat, wow.. go listen to some music alone. Just some supporters trying to help a channel grow and continue to be amazing. Sorry you’re having a bad day Rat.. Hope you have some positivity headed your way.
@Fat Rat, I don’t think anyone is as upset as you make it out. I believe I can safely say that we all feel having the addition of CB is wonderful. Not throwing darts, but the reason you likely haven’t heard what others are talking about is because of the laptop you’re on. It’s likely rolled off where others systems still play strong. On a serious note, Happy 4th to you and all. Keep enjoying music.
My Hi Fi sounded dreadful in my 12' by 11' small listening room. However, I transformed the sound by building a load of sealed limp membrane bass traps to cover the wall behind my listening position. Each trap is 4' by 2' and 8" deep. Filled with loft insulation with a gap between the insulation and the membrane. I used 2mm thick rubber sheet for the membrane. Easy and cheap to make yourself at a fraction of the cost of similar commercial traps.
I think this is the best PS Audio video that I have seen I quite a while, to the point and no rambling. I would only add that in a small cube room like mine (10 x 10 x 10) listening in the near field is a good way to minimize the room effects. Then sub placement and finally possibly some DSP EQ to really smooth out the response below 300Hz will get you there.
@Fat Rat To be honest, I don't use anything as I haven't built my speakers or amp just yet, but my cabinets just arrived today and I'll be ordering the guts on Monday from Danny at GR Research. But my DSP EQ will be Equalizer APO on my laptop computer where all my music is. After I build and setup everything, I will use REW to analyze the room and the resulting file will load into Equalizer APO to do the EQing. It's all free except for the calibrated mic I'm getting from Parts Express.
@Fat Rat Interesting. It may be some smearing of transients you are hearing from those HPF components I don't know. But I would remove only one of the filters and play those tracks in mono so that both speakers are subjected to identical signals and listen for a difference. This is my (apparently unique) method of determining the audibility of SQ differences in anything in the chain. It doesn't work for testing soundstage and imaging properties but it does for everything else. Let me know how it goes.
@Fat Rat Well then use stereo and reverse the L and R channels. If one side seems to be better than the other, it should be the same after switching channels. I don't even have a preamplifier yet as I am going to modify a passive preamp to do the switching around for testing. But the Markley method of A/ B comparison can be done with stereo as well as mono, just needs more time. Also you need stereo to judge soundstage using stereo, but my method is a little different for that comparison.
I have an even smaller room then his 3m wide by 3.6m long 2.26m height everyone says rule of thirds but not possible with this space then I came across another rule the rules of 1/5 placing your speakers and or subs and seating on the 1/5 of the length or width it’s meant to help smooth out the bass node problems that you get with small and nearly square rooms,helped my room with avr amp room correction too.
Amazing how often audio experts can't get a basic recording for youtube together. And he is sittning in front of gear costing about half a third world countrys total budget. A ten year old kid can produce better audio on a gameboy.
I have bookshelf speakers (Triangle Tituz EZ with ports partially sealed with foam) and duel REL TZero's in a 9.5' x 10.5" room. This setup works a treat for me.
I had two friends in college who each had a pair of Klipshorns. They were roommates in the same dorm room, and they stacked the corner horns in two corners. The sound quality was maximized in a small listening room.
After having chosen the optimum speakers, placed them optimally and done the proper room treatment, you probably still need to EQ your setup to get it right.
Henrik Sørensen Try to play vinyl with an anti EQ philosophy...you know vinyl needs an insane 40dB RIAA EQ. I usually don’t accept more than 6dB of EQ in my setups. Too much EQ is bad and no EQ is almost never good even in your US$100,000 system.
@@ThinkingBetter The RIAA equalization is unavoidable. The judicious use of EQ can help with many things from speaker frequency response compensation to room mode compensation to recording/mastering compensation to hearing loss compensation to music taste compensation... need I go on?
@@StewartMarkley I avoid RIAA equalization by not using vinyl anymore :-) Yes, EQ can be great for those cases and others, for example, modern premium audio systems in cars use EQ to get the sound right. Concerts use EQ all the time. I always use EQ to get my earbuds to sound right when I'm on the go e.g. shopping (using EarStudio ES100 mk2). But for some reason, people paying 10s of 1000s of US$ on their audiophile setup are to be fooled into thinking that EQ is all evil, even they actually also could benefit from a few carefully adjusted dB of EQ here and there.
Fat Rat I’ll paint them pretty. I’m looking to domesticate my mastering studio and less than idea room sizes are the only option. The gentleman didn’t get into room measurement/treatment and was curious if it even applied at that point.
Nice one. Very “meta” how the paper is causes a phasing effect and the voice suffers from bass bloat as good examples of boundary and reflection issues :-)
Chris, you’re knocking it out of the park, thank you. Don’t want to be too picky but there’s a bit of sibilance on your vids but not Paul’s, tell him to sell some of the hash in the freezer and kit you out 😀
I agree what he saidabout pulling the speakers out into the floor when you really want to listen but I would keep the towers in the living room and take the bookshelf speakers and set them up in the bedroom with a desktop amplifier
The sound quality in your first couple of videos was much better, much clearer. Now the sound seems overamplified and is kinda boomy. Please go back to your previous audio recording device :)
Once again high-quality content! Would add to the few comments on sound quality (to my ear very muffled and quite different to many other videos) - take care
Ceiling tiles vs poor flat smooth plaster board is key. Ceilings soo important. Also, cement plaster walls, which have a rough texture, along with putting speakers near center of room can’t be beat. Need rugs too. I describe a basement.
Magico A1 and Wilson Audio Duettes and Tune Tots are meant for rear wall placement. Expensive, as Chris mentions. Would be perfect for a BHK integrated amp.
I use my pair of Beyerdynamic TD880 headphones as a 'reference point' for a recording. So, when I try to find an optimal location for the speakers, I try to get them sounding as close to what I hear through the cans. Of course, one can never get the same _exact_ sound, however, when you know from the headphones of what a particular recording sounds like, then you can try to replicate this by moving the speakers in both directions (left - right, front - back) and also adjust the 'toe in'. At some point, the sound will sound very close to what you hear through the headphones. I have spent countless hours in the past doing this but, the result is satisfying. ;-)
Yamaha ns1000pro where designed for close back wall positioning , more speaker designers should design speakers against back wall , waf factor and safe for kids etc...even in wall I enjoyed old leak sandwich speakers as a kid
I had a 10 x 12 and had a 7.2.2 system, RF82s and an RC62 center. It was one 2 seats but movies were wonderful in there. My diffusers were Hot Wheels hung on every wall. Loved it but 2 channel was not too good in there.
I had good results with hanging speakers from the ceiling with a sub. My room at that time was also a 12x12, unfortunately a difficult dimension for room.
...and get some/make some diffusers for the first reflection point on the side walls. Check out Soundblab on CZcams- he’s got some very nice easy-to-make diffusers for this purpose.
Good job of articulating the detrimental effects of early reflections. But what about using directional speakers and toeing them in aggressively, such that the first significant sidewall reflection for the left speaker is the across-the-room bounce off the right side wall, and vice-versa? This pushes the first significant lateral reflections back in time quite a bit, thus reducing the "small room signature" superimposed atop the spatial information on the recording, as well as reducing coloration.
Thank you. Earl Geddes recommends this approach. However he using speakers with large waveguide loaded compression drivers. These larger baffled speakers may work against the aestheic requirements of the small NY apartment.
@@cbrunhaver Thank you for replying, Chris. And I agree, Earl's speakers are pretty big, but ime they work very well. The Dutch & Dutch 8c and the Kii3 could also be set up cross-firing. Gradient, Amphion, Larsen, and Sjofn also come to mind as offering small-room-friendly/against-the-wall-friendly designs. That being said, if York must plow with the horses he has, I agree with your suggestion. Stand-mounts + subs usually offers considerably more adaptability than floorstanders.
Definitely a decent pair of bookshelf's, one forward-facing sub, a little bit of a room treatment especially where sound hits first (i.e. opposite wall, curtains if speakers are facing a window) and all set! Being there, done that! Enjoy :)
No the brain can pick up a millisecond of delay not 2.5 milliseconds. You'll get a better sound stage if you pull out your rack I am assuming is between the speakers ,put in front of the speakers so there is a gap behind the rack and speakers acting as a divider between the two channels and on the listening wall say I put dampening right to the edge the wall behind your couch put a diffuser and the corners if possible. The ceiling will help a lot giving a bigger space in a small room by hanging some natural wool fleece above the speakers and above your sitting position wall to wall
Actually...having looked a bit at floor plans in Colorado while living in NYC...we have quite big listening rooms in pre-war apartments here in NY, both in Manhattan and the outer boroughs. So long as you're content to live in an older building, it is not unusual to find a 20 foot or larger listening space. In new constructions, of course, that kind of space is not available.
All those big pre-war apartments in Manhattan were actually modelled and inspired by the old victorian townhouses in the United Kingdom. But they cost a arm and a leg super expensive unless you got lucky one passed down through family.
On Hifi-Forum i found the DIY ViFantastisch Wallspeaker 50€/pair. Best i ever had from the clear sound at low/normal volume like headphones(without the low bass). i also listen to music on my computer mainly and there i always have a place sitting to a wall. so i am now thinking about doing something higher quality. there have been some suggestions in german magazines the last months.
How can you maximise YOUR audio (voice ) in your vid. presentations for a " better " listening..? To me it does sound with total absence of mids.. but too much highs..& overall low output level.. my instrument gain is more than 75% high.. and get a lot of background noise... not so with other Y.T. vids. pls. do a post recording sound check.....by the way it's similar when Paul is on...
IS HTIOS ATRICLES YUE WER ELOOKIN 4... In internal combustion engines, a variable-length intake manifold (VLIM),variable intake manifold (VIM), or variable intake system (VIS) is an automobile internal combustion engine manifold technology. As the name implies, VLIM/VIM/VIS can vary the length of the intake tract - in order to optimise power and torque across the range of engine speed operation, as well as help provide better fuel efficiency. This effect is often achieved by having two separate intake ports, each controlled by a valve, that open two different manifolds - one with a short path that operates at full engine load, and another with a significantly longer path that operates at lower load. The first patent issued for a variable length intake manifold was published in 1958, US Patent US2835235 by Daimler Benz AG.[1] thnake u an dthubbme supes!
@Fat Rat AND MAX. MALE SPEECH is in the (approx.300- 3000) Hz range.. by nature at a much higher dB than other Freq. of entire male voice range which in my opinion is significantly low...
@@allansh828 I've never heard of ANY speaker or headphone set that actually reduces incoming signal background noise without just "dulling" the overall frequency response... Neither with headphones OR speakers... If a speaker or headphone is truly detailed and revealing, as a truly high-end set should be, and it has great clarity and frequency response, especially in the treble and midrange, then the noise in a recording of anything is pretty much *always* more noticeable, especially during the quieter passages, (along with the treble and midrange clarity also being better and stronger at the same time), but I'm not aware of any speakers or headphones that actually *reduce* the noise or "background hiss" in a recording, *without* just simply rolling off the highs or lowering the mids in relation to the bass response, which usually just makes *everything* coming through them sound "duller" or "muddy" or "masked", none of which is tolerable just simply in order to reduce the background noise resolution or emphasis!... About the only way I could *maybe* see something like that working would be with an active speaker or headphone set, with built-in "noise reduction" circuitry for the incoming signal, (NOT just background noise reduction of ambient noise around you in the same room, that's different), so which brands and models of speakers and/or headphones are you talking about that reduce background noise in the incoming signal without any loss in the frequency response?... I'd be curious to hear them if any such things exist... I've just never seen or heard of anything like that before.
JoeJ8282 My THX789 amp has power supply noise reduction circuitry at the expense of sacrificing detail retrieval. If you are talking about background noise in the recordings, decent headphone systems are absolutely fine. My Focal Utopia on Chord Hugo TT2 presents very natural background. You can almost feel the ambient noise stretch out to the shape of the recording studio. Tho I returned TT2 because the higher end DAVE2 is imminent.
The content is great, your knowledge is unquestionalble as well as Paul's, and I like your style in general as well as Paul's, but the sound quality in this video... Sorry, too much noise, too much bass, too sharp highs.
Toe in and rake angle become extremely important when dealing with this type of placement. By the way, no girl or woman should tell the man of the house what he does with his speakers, audio equipment, home theater, cars, bikes, motorcycles, dicast or plastic model building or any other hobby he may have. If you allow your significant other to dictate, you're a soft beta male who deserves all of your equipment to be thrown out. Unbelievable to me how men have lost their balls and testosterone. Start suggesting she throws out her makeup, jewelry, her 50 pairs of shoes, her 10 purses and anything else women obsess over and see what she says...
Get new Ohm Walsh 2000's as they work best 12 to 18 inches from the wall have phenomenal imaging with sit anywhere sweet spot that no other speaker has. Can't afford them get used Walsh 2"s . check out what Zeos has to say czcams.com/video/Y_8xUDYBgZQ/video.html
Can u guys put a 120hz highpass on his mic and please fix the noise floor it doesnt suit an audiophile channel. Otherwise great tips as always, these videos have helped me having a nice hifi
At long last: A concise explanation of exactly *why* first order reflections are unwanted in a good audio system!
I've been hearing this advice for decades, with no explanation of what those reflections do, or why they are unwanted.
Somebody give this man a medal! : D
@Fat Rat
Yeah!
This was a very informative video, but I will also add three other very important things to this info Chris stated here...
1. In such a small, relatively cramped listening space, TWO subwoofers might be a little bit excessive, especially if you are in an apartment building, (which it sounds like you might be), because the resulting bass, even when adjusted and set up properly for YOUR listening space, might very well be WAY too much, overwhelming, &/or *annoying* to any of your neighbors who might be sharing a wall, ceiling, or floor with you!... In such a small space, you'd probably be just *fine* with only ONE, high quality subwoofer, as long as it was placed correctly and adjusted properly to your room and satellite speaker capabilities.
2. In the decision to keep either the bookshelf speakers on stands OR the tower speakers, I would first consider the brand & model and the overall quality level of each pair of speakers, and keep the pair with the best sound quality, whichever pair that might be, and then go from there in proper room placement procedures for whichever type you keep... If both pairs are of equal or similar brand and sound quality then go with the bookshelf speakers on the stands, for the reasons mentioned in this video, and get a really high quality and "musical" subwoofer to augment them in the bass, but on the other hand, if your tower speakers are of a much higher-end brand and sound quality than your bookshelf speakers are, then I'd consider keeping the tower speakers instead, and just place them the best you can within your limited space for the best imaging at your listening position. You *may* still use a subwoofer with the towers if it's really wanted or needed, but if the bass from the towers is already sufficient and it's not overly "boomy" in the position the speakers have to be in for space considerations, then you might not even need to get an (additional cost) subwoofer... That decision at least partially depends on which pair of speakers you have are actually better quality speakers and more worth your keeping in the long term.
3. With *either* pair of speakers, if you are having any annoying reflections & boundary "over or under enforcement" issues with the wall behind the speakers, AND because of the severely limited room space you can't really move the speakers into an "ideal" listening position, then you can try treating the wall behind the speakers with some of that acoustic foam or acoustic paneling that you often see in professional music studios and movie theaters, but if you can't find or afford that, OR you just don't like the look of it, then you can also try placing something else soft on that wall behind the speakers like some artwork or a tapestry or something, but that won't work nearly as well as proper/ideal speaker placement in the first place!
Small listening spaces are really difficult to get the sound just right in so experiment with a few different possibilities and see what sounds best to you and yet is still asthetically pleasing, as I know the final setup will have to pass the "wifey test"!... Good luck to you!
Two subs are always better than one. Just downsize them. A pair of REL zeros would be ideal.
@Fat Rat Yeah, that's cool, I have more than one sub also and it sounds awesome inside my listening space, but I live in a house in a relatively nice neighborhood, and where I actually have some *outside space* between me and my neighbors, but even so, when I have my stereo on even at a moderate volume, you can definitely hear it from outside my house, so I try not to play it TOO loud! Lol!... In contrast, I've also lived in a 1BR apartment before, in years past, and that was fine for me at that time in my life, but I remember how "paper thin" the walls in that place were, and that every single tiny little sound would transfer through the walls to the neighboring apartment, everything from dishes clanging in the kitchen, to just simple TV watching, the neighbors fucking, (lol!), and even moderate *talking/conversation* could be heard from the other apartments immediately around me, especially the 5 that I shared any walls, ceilings, or floors with, (I was right in the middle of other apartments to my left, right, up, down, and to the other side), so ultimately it totally depends on that guy's individual living situation and layout of his listening space and building which one sounds best and is going to be most acceptable to everyone around him, not just him and his wife, but also possibly his immediate neighbors!...
If that guy in the letter in this video has the *money AND space* for 2 subs, that *can* provide more evenly distributed, slightly "fuller" bass throughout the room, IF they're properly set up and adjusted, but if he is living in a overly cramped apartment or townhouse/condo that shares at least one or 2 wall(s) with his neighbors, (which it sounded like he might very well be in that situation), and/or if he is on any kind of relatively lower budget, he *may* only want OR be able to get *one* relatively high quality, as "musical" as possible for that money sub, and go with that option, however, *none* of us here in these comments really know all that much about anything in regards to his living situation, so there's definitely no need for any of us to start "arguing" about it, as many of us "audiophile nerds" tend to do, even when it doesn't really matter to any of us! Lol!...
I was just trying to give that guy some additional suggestions and options to consider, (IF he even ever reads any of our comments in the first place!), so let's just leave the options open for him to try for himself!... I know we both are very knowledgeable about audio and we both make some really good comments on the videos on this channel because of that knowledge and experience, but we are also both very opinionated, so really all we can or ever should do is to just put that info and knowledge/experience out there in our comments and then let the reader decide for themselves which info to actually try and utilize for their own specific circumstances, so let's both just let it be what it is here, because without anyone here actually seeing that guy's listening space and building layout, *none* of us *really* know the "best" way for him to improve his auditory experience, simply because he didn't give any of us enough total information to work with here! Without actually seeing that guy's listening space and living situation we're all just totally *guessing* what would work "best" for him, given our OWN priorities and living spaces... those of which may not be at ALL like that guy's priorities or space to consider!...
Anyway, that's enough about that. Have a great day dude! :)
@@scottking2821 Well usually I would also say yes to that, but not *always* in every situation or circumstance... There are MANY things to take into consideration when setting up the "best" sound in any given listening environment, *especially* when/if a person's budget and/or spacial considerations have to also be considered in the situation!... I help design and install moderate to high-end audio and home theater systems in (usually) custom homes for a living, so I know there is MUCH more to take into consideration than always just a general "rule of thumb" about something! Each house/building and listening space, AND each individual client's living habits and realistic "family functionality" absolutely MUST be taken into consideration when planning out the "best" sound system for any given person's tastes and habits, and their realistic budget and living situation...
I also know that REL subs ARE really great subs, (we have used them a few times before too), BUT they are ALSO quite pricey, (and yes, I know; you kinda do "get what you pay for" to a certain extent, especially with subs and speakers), but that is only ONE of MANY options that guy has to try out, so saying that "2 subs are *always* better than 1" isn't necessarily always true in every situation, when all things are taken into account!...
I'm not trying to "disagree" with anyone here, (because I usually actually agree with what you said in many cases), but ALL things have to be considered here, and since neither of us know what that guy in the letter in this video's living situation really is, all we can do is make some *suggestions* for him to maybe try, but just making an outright "blanket statement" that it *always* has to be any certain way for the "best" sound, isn't necessarily a true or good thing to do!...
Read my other reply here to FatRat's comment...
@Fat Rat LOL! Yeah, I know what you mean man!... I like playing it loud sometimes too! But since I am in a house with a bit of yard around it on all sides, I can do that reasonably well during the day when everyone's awake, but I'm still cautious to get too loud, as not everyone in the neighborhood, (as good as mine is), needs to know I have a big stereo system, as my college days taught me when I had all of my equipment stolen over Christmas break one year! That really sucked! :(
Plus, now I'm just more courteous of my closest neighbors, which is an older couple who go to bed by around 9PM every day!... But it's all good, even with that self imposed limitation on my "blasting abilities", I'd still MUCH rather be living here in this house I'm in rn than EVER go back to a worse neighborhood, with more potential thieves, OR any kind of apartment complex! (Been there, done that, never again if I can at all help it!)
Oh, and yes, I DO tend to "write a book" with every one of my comments, but that is just one of my traits, having Asperger's and all!... I have NO problem carrying on a VERY detailed and in-depth conversation with anyone and about ANY topic!
I know, I'm being pedantic... hey, that's oftentimes what we do.
That said, moving from one sub to multiples... always better.
Subs being a simple volume velocity device, I can't think of a scenario whereby 2 subs isn't a positive step.
Also, and more relevant to the OP's situation Chris mentioned;
Near-field subwoofing is an excellent tool for diminishing LF egress outside the room. Proximity to the sub necessitates a natural lower dBspl needed for adequate spectral balance.
As an aside, implementation of Crowson actuators for the tactile bass component, should facilitate lowering of the audible LF level and subsequently lowering the energy outside the unit.
Also as a FOH engineer, I'd be remiss in my audiophile duties if I didn't point out a VERY powerful tool to combat LF bothering neighbors etc., is multiple subs w/cardioid steering. Two subs located and DSP aligned in such a manner whereby they sum in the direction of the primary listening position, ... thus nulling LF energy in every other direction.
Thanks
Ivor Tiefenbrun of Linn used to say that, as a designer, he had no control over, or knowledge of, the room where his speakers would be placed but he could guarantee that it would have at least one wall and a floor and, consequently, favoured "back to the wall" designs . This was considered a much more practical approach rather than aiming for a flat anechoic response; he knew his products were going to be used in "real world" rooms not anechoic chambers and the bass response, in particular, was tailored accordingly. By ensuring his designs were intended to be used hard against a wall and floor mounting he automatically minimised several performance issues caused by unknown parameters in the end users environment.
Wow, your have such a heavy voice, I recommend some low-end rolloff on your mic.
Mic sounds hot in general. Maybe start by just lowering the gain on the mic? Noise floor is high overall. Thanks Chris and the PS Audio team for the content as always!
-12dB/octave
at 110Hz
Fat Rat, wow.. go listen to some music alone. Just some supporters trying to help a channel grow and continue to be amazing. Sorry you’re having a bad day Rat.. Hope you have some positivity headed your way.
@Fat Rat Hard to concentrate on the information when you can't understand what is being said. I gave up halfway through.
@Fat Rat, I don’t think anyone is as upset as you make it out. I believe I can safely say that we all feel having the addition of CB is wonderful. Not throwing darts, but the reason you likely haven’t heard what others are talking about is because of the laptop you’re on. It’s likely rolled off where others systems still play strong. On a serious note, Happy 4th to you and all. Keep enjoying music.
My Hi Fi sounded dreadful in my 12' by 11' small listening room. However, I transformed the sound by building a load of sealed limp membrane bass traps to cover the wall behind my listening position.
Each trap is 4' by 2' and 8" deep. Filled with loft insulation with a gap between the insulation and the membrane. I used 2mm thick rubber sheet for the membrane. Easy and cheap to make yourself at a fraction of the cost of similar commercial traps.
Well done.
I think this is the best PS Audio video that I have seen I quite a while, to the point and no rambling. I would only add that in a small cube room like mine (10 x 10 x 10) listening in the near field is a good way to minimize the room effects. Then sub placement and finally possibly some DSP EQ to really smooth out the response below 300Hz will get you there.
@Fat Rat To be honest, I don't use anything as I haven't built my speakers or amp just yet, but my cabinets just arrived today and I'll be ordering the guts on Monday from Danny at GR Research. But my DSP EQ will be Equalizer APO on my laptop computer where all my music is. After I build and setup everything, I will use REW to analyze the room and the resulting file will load into Equalizer APO to do the EQing. It's all free except for the calibrated mic I'm getting from Parts Express.
@Fat Rat Interesting. It may be some smearing of transients you are hearing from those HPF components I don't know. But I would remove only one of the filters and play those tracks in mono so that both speakers are subjected to identical signals and listen for a difference. This is my (apparently unique) method of determining the audibility of SQ differences in anything in the chain. It doesn't work for testing soundstage and imaging properties but it does for everything else. Let me know how it goes.
@Fat Rat Well then use stereo and reverse the L and R channels. If one side seems to be better than the other, it should be the same after switching channels. I don't even have a preamplifier yet as I am going to modify a passive preamp to do the switching around for testing. But the Markley method of A/ B comparison can be done with stereo as well as mono, just needs more time. Also you need stereo to judge soundstage using stereo, but my method is a little different for that comparison.
Very interested in your opionion on DSP EQ, I think it's the best to do when you can't physically treat your room.
I have an even smaller room then his 3m wide by 3.6m long 2.26m height everyone says rule of thirds but not possible with this space then I came across another rule the rules of 1/5 placing your speakers and or subs and seating on the 1/5 of the length or width it’s meant to help smooth out the bass node problems that you get with small and nearly square rooms,helped my room with avr amp room correction too.
I was not aware of 1/5 rule. Really helpful.
Amazing how often audio experts can't get a basic recording for youtube together.
And he is sittning in front of gear costing about half a third world countrys total budget.
A ten year old kid can produce better audio on a gameboy.
I’ve been blown away by Dirac 3.0 and this sounds like a perfect application for a DDRC-24.
WOAH tremendous knowledge here for bedroom producers and studio engineers alike
I have bookshelf speakers (Triangle Tituz EZ with ports partially sealed with foam) and duel REL TZero's in a 9.5' x 10.5" room. This setup works a treat for me.
I had two friends in college who each had a pair of Klipshorns. They were roommates in the same dorm room, and they stacked the corner horns in two corners. The sound quality was maximized in a small listening room.
why not recommend room treatment?
After having chosen the optimum speakers, placed them optimally and done the proper room treatment, you probably still need to EQ your setup to get it right.
Never EQ
Henrik Sørensen Try to play vinyl with an anti EQ philosophy...you know vinyl needs an insane 40dB RIAA EQ. I usually don’t accept more than 6dB of EQ in my setups. Too much EQ is bad and no EQ is almost never good even in your US$100,000 system.
@@ThinkingBetter The RIAA equalization is unavoidable. The judicious use of EQ can help with many things from speaker frequency response compensation to room mode compensation to recording/mastering compensation to hearing loss compensation to music taste compensation... need I go on?
@@StewartMarkley I avoid RIAA equalization by not using vinyl anymore :-)
Yes, EQ can be great for those cases and others, for example, modern premium audio systems in cars use EQ to get the sound right. Concerts use EQ all the time. I always use EQ to get my earbuds to sound right when I'm on the go e.g. shopping (using EarStudio ES100 mk2). But for some reason, people paying 10s of 1000s of US$ on their audiophile setup are to be fooled into thinking that EQ is all evil, even they actually also could benefit from a few carefully adjusted dB of EQ here and there.
@@ThinkingBetter Absolutely true. Have a great 4th of July.
Are diffusion panels (all kinds), traps, or dampening an option in small room scenarios?
Fat Rat I’ll paint them pretty. I’m looking to domesticate my mastering studio and less than idea room sizes are the only option. The gentleman didn’t get into room measurement/treatment and was curious if it even applied at that point.
Nice one. Very “meta” how the paper is causes a phasing effect and the voice suffers from bass bloat as good examples of boundary and reflection issues :-)
I have a sony str 190 with tower and bookshelf I need help with where to place it
'maximize audio in a small space' behind are two huge speakers. what an irony
Well, they would fit in my room....when I remove anything else :-))
Chris, you’re knocking it out of the park, thank you. Don’t want to be too picky but there’s a bit of sibilance on your vids but not Paul’s, tell him to sell some of the hash in the freezer and kit you out 😀
I agree what he saidabout pulling the speakers out into the floor when you really want to listen but I would keep the towers in the living room and take the bookshelf speakers and set them up in the bedroom with a desktop amplifier
Very good commentary. Thanks, “new guy”!
How big do you think this guys' arms are? Is he a competitive lifter?
Hey Chris, I didn't hear you mention anything about room treatments...... What gives?
The sound quality in your first couple of videos was much better, much clearer. Now the sound seems overamplified and is kinda boomy. Please go back to your previous audio recording device :)
Nice footage from Paul's personal helicopter at the end./s
Private drone you mean :-))
Once again high-quality content! Would add to the few comments on sound quality (to my ear very muffled and quite different to many other videos) - take care
Ceiling tiles vs poor flat smooth plaster board is key. Ceilings soo important. Also, cement plaster walls, which have a rough texture, along with putting speakers near center of room can’t be beat. Need rugs too. I describe a basement.
Magico A1 and Wilson Audio Duettes and Tune Tots are meant for rear wall placement. Expensive, as Chris mentions. Would be perfect for a BHK integrated amp.
Are the amplifiers hooked up with chains to the wall?
I use my pair of Beyerdynamic TD880 headphones as a 'reference point' for a recording.
So, when I try to find an optimal location for the speakers, I try to get them sounding as close to what I hear through the cans.
Of course, one can never get the same _exact_ sound, however, when you know from the headphones of what a particular recording sounds like, then you can try to replicate this by moving the speakers in both directions (left - right, front - back) and also adjust the 'toe in'. At some point, the sound will sound very close to what you hear through the headphones.
I have spent countless hours in the past doing this but, the result is satisfying. ;-)
Paul already answered this particular letter... but nice to hear another point of view...
Hang on to this one Paul. Chris, I enjoy listening to you. Get the sound sorted out ;)
Yamaha ns1000pro where designed for close back wall positioning , more speaker designers should design speakers against back wall , waf factor and safe for kids etc...even in wall I enjoyed old leak sandwich speakers as a kid
rerun different host ?
Just give the room the middle finger and get the biggest speakers possible.
I had a 10 x 12 and had a 7.2.2 system, RF82s and an RC62 center. It was one 2 seats but movies were wonderful in there. My diffusers were Hot Wheels hung on every wall. Loved it but 2 channel was not too good in there.
I had good results with hanging speakers from the ceiling with a sub. My room at that time was also a 12x12, unfortunately a difficult dimension for room.
...and get some/make some diffusers for the first reflection point on the side walls. Check out Soundblab on CZcams- he’s got some very nice easy-to-make diffusers for this purpose.
Good job of articulating the detrimental effects of early reflections. But what about using directional speakers and toeing them in aggressively, such that the first significant sidewall reflection for the left speaker is the across-the-room bounce off the right side wall, and vice-versa? This pushes the first significant lateral reflections back in time quite a bit, thus reducing the "small room signature" superimposed atop the spatial information on the recording, as well as reducing coloration.
Thank you. Earl Geddes recommends this approach. However he using speakers with large waveguide loaded compression drivers. These larger baffled speakers may work against the aestheic requirements of the small NY apartment.
@@cbrunhaver Thank you for replying, Chris. And I agree, Earl's speakers are pretty big, but ime they work very well. The Dutch & Dutch 8c and the Kii3 could also be set up cross-firing. Gradient, Amphion, Larsen, and Sjofn also come to mind as offering small-room-friendly/against-the-wall-friendly designs. That being said, if York must plow with the horses he has, I agree with your suggestion. Stand-mounts + subs usually offers considerably more adaptability than floorstanders.
Definitely a decent pair of bookshelf's, one forward-facing sub, a little bit of a room treatment especially where sound hits first (i.e. opposite wall, curtains if speakers are facing a window) and all set! Being there, done that! Enjoy :)
No the brain can pick up a millisecond of delay not 2.5 milliseconds.
You'll get a better sound stage if you pull out your rack I am assuming is between the speakers ,put in front of the speakers so there is a gap behind the rack and speakers acting as a divider between the two channels and on the listening wall say I put dampening right to the edge the wall behind your couch put a diffuser and the corners if possible.
The ceiling will help a lot giving a bigger space in a small room by hanging some natural wool fleece above the speakers and above your sitting position wall to wall
That cough destroyed my ears with ear buds.
Actually...having looked a bit at floor plans in Colorado while living in NYC...we have quite big listening rooms in pre-war apartments here in NY, both in Manhattan and the outer boroughs. So long as you're content to live in an older building, it is not unusual to find a 20 foot or larger listening space. In new constructions, of course, that kind of space is not available.
All those big pre-war apartments in Manhattan were actually modelled and inspired by the old victorian townhouses in the United Kingdom.
But they cost a arm and a leg super expensive unless you got lucky one passed down through family.
@@C--A I have one of those large apartments here in a sleepy section of Brooklyn - so they are not hard to come by and not all prohibitively priced.
Very difficult to make out dialog. Super bass heavy. Maybe need to be closer to the microphone or rearrange its angle . Just not clear.
high quality content with poor recording quality. The hizzing is very anoying
On Hifi-Forum i found the DIY ViFantastisch Wallspeaker 50€/pair. Best i ever had from the clear sound at low/normal volume like headphones(without the low bass). i also listen to music on my computer mainly and there i always have a place sitting to a wall. so i am now thinking about doing something higher quality. there have been some suggestions in german magazines the last months.
Try getting smaller speakers and add a subwoofer. Sometimes bigger is not better.
Good headphones and a sub in your chair.
@Fat Rat Hey, back! Moo ;-)
@Fat Rat Thanks. That sounds like fun!
I appreciate Chris's expertise, but I find him hard to listen to.
I'd much rather listen to Paul - on any subject.
I here ya, but I feel that I get more detailed advice from Chris. I'm sure they'll mix it up enough to keep everyone satisfied.
@@cablebrain9691 It's better to listen to Chris at bedtime.
His soporific monotone has cured my insomnia more than once.
Your voice is more audiophile than my speakers :(
I agree subwoofers would make bass control easier. I would advise any port on the main speakers should be on the front not the rear.
Please speak a little louder! when compensating for your quiet speech, when you cough it blows my headphones off!
That’s just a slightly oversized box cupboard...
Wow! Does all their gear sound like this?? Really love your videos and i know you can do better then this.
How can you maximise YOUR
audio (voice ) in your vid. presentations for a " better " listening..?
To me it does sound with total absence of mids.. but too much highs..& overall low output level..
my instrument gain is more than 75% high.. and get a lot of background noise...
not so with other Y.T. vids. pls. do a post recording sound check.....by the way it's similar when Paul is on...
IS HTIOS ATRICLES YUE WER ELOOKIN 4...
In internal combustion engines, a variable-length intake manifold (VLIM),variable intake manifold (VIM), or variable intake system (VIS) is an automobile internal combustion engine manifold technology. As the name implies, VLIM/VIM/VIS can vary the length of the intake tract - in order to optimise power and torque across the range of engine speed operation, as well as help provide better fuel efficiency. This effect is often achieved by having two separate intake ports, each controlled by a valve, that open two different manifolds - one with a short path that operates at full engine load, and another with a significantly longer path that operates at lower load. The first patent issued for a variable length intake manifold was published in 1958, US Patent US2835235 by Daimler Benz AG.[1]
thnake u an dthubbme supes!
@Fat Rat AND MAX. MALE SPEECH is in the (approx.300- 3000) Hz range..
by nature at a much higher dB than other Freq. of entire male voice range which in my opinion is significantly low...
@Fat Rat don't blame Y.T. many others on Y.T. are very clear & loud.. AND WITHOUT HEADPHONES....
use headphones
Fixed it for me homie!
Headphones make the noise floor even *more* annoying though! Lol!
@@JoeJ-8282 It depends. High end headphone systems can separate noise floor further to the background, just like high end speaker systems.
@@allansh828 I've never heard of ANY speaker or headphone set that actually reduces incoming signal background noise without just "dulling" the overall frequency response... Neither with headphones OR speakers... If a speaker or headphone is truly detailed and revealing, as a truly high-end set should be, and it has great clarity and frequency response, especially in the treble and midrange, then the noise in a recording of anything is pretty much *always* more noticeable, especially during the quieter passages, (along with the treble and midrange clarity also being better and stronger at the same time), but I'm not aware of any speakers or headphones that actually *reduce* the noise or "background hiss" in a recording, *without* just simply rolling off the highs or lowering the mids in relation to the bass response, which usually just makes *everything* coming through them sound "duller" or "muddy" or "masked", none of which is tolerable just simply in order to reduce the background noise resolution or emphasis!...
About the only way I could *maybe* see something like that working would be with an active speaker or headphone set, with built-in "noise reduction" circuitry for the incoming signal, (NOT just background noise reduction of ambient noise around you in the same room, that's different), so which brands and models of speakers and/or headphones are you talking about that reduce background noise in the incoming signal without any loss in the frequency response?... I'd be curious to hear them if any such things exist... I've just never seen or heard of anything like that before.
JoeJ8282 My THX789 amp has power supply noise reduction circuitry at the expense of sacrificing detail retrieval. If you are talking about background noise in the recordings, decent headphone systems are absolutely fine. My Focal Utopia on Chord Hugo TT2 presents very natural background. You can almost feel the ambient noise stretch out to the shape of the recording studio. Tho I returned TT2 because the higher end DAVE2 is imminent.
Please stop the uhh.umm. duh duh cmon fellas
Look for on wall speakers and a sub
The content is great, your knowledge is unquestionalble as well as Paul's, and I like your style in general as well as Paul's, but the sound quality in this video... Sorry, too much noise, too much bass, too sharp highs.
0:59 , floor standers, bookshelf, wife...... one has to go ! _hmmmm_
Toe in and rake angle become extremely important when dealing with this type of placement. By the way, no girl or woman should tell the man of the house what he does with his speakers, audio equipment, home theater, cars, bikes, motorcycles, dicast or plastic model building or any other hobby he may have.
If you allow your significant other to dictate, you're a soft beta male who deserves all of your equipment to be thrown out. Unbelievable to me how men have lost their balls and testosterone. Start suggesting she throws out her makeup, jewelry, her 50 pairs of shoes, her 10 purses and anything else women obsess over and see what she says...
Penultimate!
Typical uk victorian 'parlour' 12' x 12' or even 10'x10'...
Get new Ohm Walsh 2000's as they work best 12 to 18 inches from the wall have phenomenal imaging with sit anywhere sweet spot that no other speaker has. Can't afford them get used Walsh 2"s . check out what Zeos has to say czcams.com/video/Y_8xUDYBgZQ/video.html
New mic please..your voice sounds terrible
Get a new wife.
Just get to the point. Other guy is same way. Wasting my valuable sound listening time.
Don P I enjoy being tortured.