Shovel Knight and Nailing Nostalgia
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- čas přidán 30. 08. 2016
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Some games are all about nostalgia - a reminder of how games used to be. No game nails this sensation quite like Shovel Knight, which expertly picks and chooses the right bits to emulate from old games. Here's how Yacht Club Games pulled it off.
Recommended reading / viewing:
Gamasutra: "Breaking the NES for Shovel Knight"
www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DavidD...
dustmop.io: "NES Graphics - Part 3"
www.dustmop.io/blog/2015/12/18...
Games shown in this episode (in order of appearance):
Shatterhand (Natsume, 1991)
Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night (Inti Creates, 2019)
Yooka-Laylee (Playtonic Games, 2017)
Thimbleweed Park (Ron Gilbert and Gary Winnick, 2017)
Shovel Knight (Yacht Club Games, 2014)
Mega Man (Capcom, 1987)
Ninja Gaiden (Tecmo, 1988)
DuckTales (Capcom, 1989)
Castlevania (Konami, 1986)
Super Mario Bros. 3 (Nintendo, 1988)
Zelda II: The Adventure of Link (Nintendo, 1987)
Blaster Master (Sunsoft, 1988)
The Legend of Zelda (Nintendo, 1986)
Final Fantasy (Square, 1987)
Mega Man 2 (Capcom, 1988)
Metal Storm (Tamtex, 1991)
Mega Man 3 (Capcom, 1990)
Super Mario Bros. (Nintendo, 1985)
Ghosts 'n Goblins (Capcom, 1985)
Rush'n Attack (Konami, 1985)
Adventure Island 3 (Now Production, 1992)
Double Dragon (Technōs Japan, 1987)
Batman: Return of the Joker (Sunsoft, 1991)
Sword Master (Athena, 1990)
Castlevania III: Dracula's Curse (Konami, 1989)
Mighty Gunvolt (Inti Creates, 2014)
Hyper Light Drifter (Heart Machine, 2016)
Mighty No. 9 (Comcept, 2016)
Mega Man 8 (Capcom, 1996)
Shantae and the Pirate's Curse (WayForward, 2014)
Music used in this episode:
Intro (Shatterhand)
Strike the Earth! (Shovel Knight, Jake Kaufman)
An Underlying Problem (Shovel Knight, Jake Kaufman)
In the Halls of the Usurper (Shovel Knight, Jake Kaufman)
High Above the Land (Shovel Knight, Jake Kaufman)
No Weapons Here (Shovel Knight, Jake Kaufman)
The Starlit Wilds (Shovel Knight, Jake Kaufman)
Clip credits
AZar027 - "Mega Man 8 - Terrible Voice Acting"
• Mega Man 8 - Terrible ...
Contribute translated subtitles - amara.org/v/C3BFW/ - Hry
As someone who never owned a NES or SNES growing up, I thought Shovel Knight stood perfectly well on its own merits.
I always wondered about this, thanks!
I was just about to ask exactly that
Me too!
Same. I usually don't care about "nes inspired" indie games, but shovel knight is something MUCH greater than a simple little ""inspired"" indie game...it's a goddamn masterpiece!!
And I haven't even completed Spector or Torment and King of Cards yet! Only Shovel of Hope and Plague of Shadows, only 1/2 of the campaigns!!
Agreed
Here’s a principle for making something look like a nostalgic NES game:
Make it look like an SNES game.
love your account name and ur comment
i love splat toon
I literally thought shovel knight was supposed to be reminiscent of SNES games not NES games.
@@nutcase6443 it has game design elements of nes games but it looks like snes
Yeah I mean nes Graphics were what they were because of the limitations of the time SNES really is the Pinnacle of pixel graphics although the system still couldn't handle more intense moments with tons stuff going on at once. That said there are some PlayStation games with really good pixel Graphics to but most games had left it behind at that point
@@adeibmuthanna7936 what's a splatty toon
Tbh never played Splatoon seems like another shooter but better
My favorite improvement Shovel Knight makes over retro titles is subtle: When you hit an enemy, _collision damage with that enemy is temporarily disabled._ This is important because your primary attack is at melee range and fast-moving enemies can otherwise run into you after taking the hit.
I'll note some retro games do manage this nice bit of design. Mario 3 does, for instance. It's quick, but when bosses are injured for several frames they can't hurt you. But, Nintendo was almost always ahead of the curve on core design stuff, so probably not surprising.
Oh man, those mocked up game logos at the start had the typography fetishist in me feelin' all warm and gooey inside you're gettin' me all riled up over here Mark
wtf
...what
This comment is meant to be read piece by piece but forces you to the end at it's own pace.
I genuinely hate this comment.
@@robuxyyyyyyyyyy4708
I genuinely love this comment, but only at arm's length.
This comment is bone hurting juice
What's interesting about Shovel Knight is that, at least to me, Shovel Knight sort of transcends Nostalgia much in the way the new DOOM did. It felt less like a game that gave me nostalgic feelings for the past, and more like a game I would be nostalgic for in and of itself, if you understand what I'm saying.
Shovel Knight feels like we never moved on to 3D. I feel that it's less like a look back to the past, and more like someone decided to develop a game as if we never stopped using old school design and pixel art. It feels like a natural evolution. I mean, what do we find nostalgic about retro games? Their ambition; the way pixel art is more representative of an idea than a depiction of it; their devotion to teaching by design; their challenge; the way they tried to bring a world to life through detail and character; and the unrestrained imagination of it all. Its like SK extrapolated all of that into a game seperate from the time period in which it was born.
I always wished that there were SDK's for Sega's old powerful arcade boards or the Neo-Geo so that people could develop new games using that technology, using the limitations to push retro-oriented design forward in interesting ways. But what do you think Mark? You think more games can do what Doom did and bring old-school design into a modern age?
(Three years after this comment) Great comment! Sonic Mania is also what you just described, Sonic but what if they didn't stop the 2D ways yet and instead evolved it.
I think the closest right now to such SDKs would be PICO-8. It combines retro-ish limitations with modern conveniences such as IDE, high-level scripting language executed by fast modern processors(while also being reverse-engineerable without struggling with disassembly), graphical sprite editor, digital standalone game program, and online cartridge sharing
Those opening title screens though, wow. You're one hell of a graphic designer, if I'm using that term right.
3 years later. But yeah, graphic designers are usually the ones in charge of typography, logo design, icons etc.
4 years later, but yes, If you mean intro to his own logo, Yes, that's really powerful.
Graphic designers are actually in the most common sense explained as 'Emotionally intellectual'. I actually kinda felt this intro, because it was ended so pure, humorous and even in style of the game you're starting like "ready for a new adventure!". If you look at this game closely it really has those pure, humorous ways with not too much fictional designs (pure) and some nice wordplay with a tiny wink for physical humor.
And yes, graphic designer have actually a really broad function, but this function is most of the cases something like brand designs, big artifarti projects, or someone with a big role in game design. Ik think CZcams also added the "graphic editor", which is actually quite nice.
...I myself find the term Graphic design too broad if you ask my opinion.
Can anyone guess what the 6 games are referenced in the title cards at the start? For "Nostalgia", "Good Old Days", "Micro Transactions", "Military Shooters", "Massive Updates", and "Kickstarter"
I honestly have no clue but I want to say you did an amazing job on that intro ✌️😄
Waiiiit.... no
What where they?
Nostalgia = Rockman 6
Massive Updates = Super Contra
"Nostalgia" made me think of UN Squadron, but I don't think that's right. "Good Old Days" is...Ninja Gaiden? "Military Shooters" makes me think of Ikari Warriors. The rest would be wild guesses. You did a fantastic job on that prelude, though! LOVE it.
Even though the DuckTales comparison is more similar, their actual inspiration for the downward stab is from Zelda II.
"We'll find docta wawee."
I think I am in love with Light's voice
It’s great
Heard it as "Wowee!"
W… mega man!
UwU
I absolutely lost it at the mega man cartoon.
Did you find docta wowie?!
That wasn't a cartoon, that was a cutscene ... unless you knew it was a cutscene and we're just calling it a cartoon because it is designed like a cartoon
Noventia almost fell asleep there
Dr Wowee
--You must, recover all the energy imMEdiately, w--Megaman.
Those opening splash screens tho. Fantastic!
3:37 this is one of the most creative transitions I've seen on CZcams
This man is just quality.
8:13 "When we find dat meeteeor, we'll find Doctah Wahwee."
You could say that Shovel Knight really *digs* the past...
Hahahaha good one.
Shove-l it
:o
Hey Dusty!
or...
get this
we don't
Big Oof
Great video as always. A perfect insight into why Shovel Knight and Hyper Light Drifter work so well and Mighty Number 9 does not.
Quality of life improvements to me seems to be the name of the game when updating games, remakes, spiritual successors and the like. Mainly because certain holdovers are kind of pointless and meant as padding rather than improve the gaming experience. Disgaea to me is the best example of this, giving you a billion ways to munchkin everything to bits while also making all of its mechanics incredibly flexible to avoid making the grinding experience tedious.
I'm so glad that someone else has heard of Shatterhand. Truly one of the NES's hidden gems.
Shovel Knight is currently at a point, where it started to be a love letter to the NES era, but ended up being a game that people write love letters to. Shovel Knight is a perfect inspiration for any new developer who desires to create something big.
I feel like you inadvertently hit the nail on the head on why people were/are disappointed with Yooka Laylee. Because the game didn't pull elements from a large resource of 3D platformers, and instead used the first two Banjo games as the source of the mechanics, it was stuck being compared to those two games. Shovel Knight, as you stated in this video, can't really be compared to classic Megaman because the way the two games handle and play is very, very different, and Shovel Knight adds some modern mechanics so people who didn't grow up in the NES era can have fun too. Yooka Laylee can be compared to Banjo Kazooie (and Tooie), because the two games play very similarly and have the same structure, and couple that with Yooka Laylee not really adding a whole lot of "modern" mechanics, it's only natural for the games to be compared to each other. And when two games are being compared, the one that people grew up with will come out on top most of the time, because of our rose-tinted glasses.
TLDR: Yooka Laylee has a harder time standing on its own two feet because it only pulls elements from Banjo Kazooie and Tooie rather than a multitude of 3D platformers.
there is something in common with the two.
Shovel Knight is in both
And frankly, those Rare "collectathons" had extremely questionable design to begin with.
It would be cool if you gave us your look into Cave Story and how it shaped the indie scene.
How did shovel knight do it? *By being a good game*. I and many other people didn't grow up with the NES (especially in Europe where computers, not consoles, were the dominant force, such as the Commodore AMIGA and Atari ST). And yet even in Europe this game was a smash hit. Its just a GOOD GAME.
Pixel art will always be charming, chip music will always be charming and the gameplay is as tight as a drum. This is why its a good game, it has nothing to do with Nostalgia, IMHO.
It was a good game but it doesn't feel like a game I can connect to. The game feels more like a cheap SNES game rather than a NES game. that's not to say it's bad but still.
Yes. But this video as well as this whole channel is exploring and trying to figure out WHY it was a good game. Yes this video focused more on how it nailed nostalgia. But some of his other videos (specifically the Mario level design ones) focus on why it was a good game. Because to people like me, it's not satisfying enough to stop at, "Because it was a good game".
Oliver Misbach Same here but that's really all I have to say. I can normally be very critical towards the complexities of something, why something is important or harms, what fits and what doesn't and so on. But Shovel Knight borrows from an era when games could only be simple, leaving me critically speechless on everything else.
JRPGs and Adventure games from the NES era would like to talk to you about how 'Simple' they are. See to me a good game is based on how the actual gameplay flows with the controls and how that works with the level design. I've written this down elsewhere but simplicity in the controls is usually one button -> one function.
And if you're talking story... well here's an original thought, you make the story yourself through gameplay. It's your own experiences within the game that make the story more expansive, not the cutscenes.
tcrpgfan Shovel Knight is trying to be a platformer for a simple era. Simplicity is the definition.
Also, making my own story? The heck are you talking about? Like I said, the games are from an era of simplicity. You think I back in time to make a story? No.
I can't express how much I love Shovel Knight. It excites me in the same way as the greatest games of my youth did in their respective eras. It doesn't just reach my inner child; it makes me realize that in at least one way, I still am that child.
This is soooooooo very well done
Hey, I know you, I watch your delightful videos
Playing all the NES games Shovel Knight was inspired by and then coming back to it is honestly an AMAZING experience. This video covered all the same conclusions I made on that journey!
I remember playing Shovel Knight 5 years ago and enjoying the game despite having no previous experience on retro games. Now after playing a lot more of the classic stuff, I can pinpoint so much stuff that's inspired from them. I see now elements of level design that make me say "this looks like something taken straight out of Mega Man". Or how the way you use special items with up + attack is a reference to Castlevania, but you can also change that in the options. The entire game it a clever way to pay homage to classic titles while also having the quality of life improvements that makes it accessible to modern players.
Hyper Light Drifter looks interesting...
goty
Highly recommended.
I probably just suck but i started the game and got completely lost after about half an hour
Thomas Home I did the same thing, but then i started it again after aimlessly wandering, and my god it's so much fun and very challenging.
I'm glad more people are talking about Hyper Light Drifter, I don't think it gets enough credit or attention
so in a way mighty number 9 is more faithful to mega man than shovel knight is.
***** yeah
clearly in every way.
Wednesday's Serial
definitely
though I think Metagal is a better way of doing even that. and it's like a quarter during steam sales.
Wednesday's Serial i agree
Insightful as always. It's clear how important it is to recognize what worked and what certainly did not work for games we're nostalgic for in order to create a worthy homage.
One point I wanted to address was your idea that lives and having to restart the level are outdated. I'm not saying they aren't, per se, but I've always felt proponents of this idea have had little to back it up. I mean, I think the actual complaint should be the *need for lives*. In Shovel Knight you don't need lives because every checkpoint is a "hard checkpoint", essentially a save point that, unless you quit out purposefully, will forever let you continue from it. Mega Man *requires* lives because its "hard checkpoints" are earned by beating an entire stage, a task much greater than getting from checkpoint to checkpoint in Shovel Knight, and would be damn near impossible to the casual player without the help of lives and the stage's "soft checkpoints".
The argument I muster is this then. It's not the addition of lives that make a game frustratingly punishing, but the distance between hard checkpoints. Which in turn raises the question: How long is too long a distance between hard checkpoints? Is there a defined distance? Or is it up to the designer and who they're targeting the game at? If that is the case, than who's to say what is objectively wrong with a game like Mega Man's death punishment design?
Bottom line is, lives, if anything, are a boon. It's the distance between these continue points that should be judged. Of course, I'd love hear why I'm wrong if I am.
Dude, these are just getting more and more amazing. Your essays are becoming some of the most insightful and well-produced content on CZcams.
The 4 principles of Nostalgic Design:
- Take from multiple sources
- Emulate what works
- Modernise what doesn't work
- Give it a rose-tinted look
You literally just took a line from the video.
4:01 *HOVER MEANIE*
4:50 Ahh, so THAT’S what happened to the secret training spot!
This video was fantastic. Your production values and compelling writing always astound me.
dude this intro stepped up your game like 300%, shit just blew my mind.
"But he doesn't shoot lemons out of his arms"
"you must recover all the energy immediately, m- mega man..."
U must recovuh al thi energy immedeataly, mega man(dont get a stroke)
Your production quality is just getting better and better! Keep up the good work!!!
I love this video. This is easily one of my favorite game design videos I've ever seen. I'm a retro game fan that doesn't have personal nostalgia for those games, but did play them as an adult and loved them. Thank you for this video. it's perfect. Very well made with the visuals. Very well edited (both the script and the video) and very well explained. I watch a lot of design videos and I've never heard this analysis of Shovel Night. Wow. Great job!
i have atleast 150 deaths on file 4 bosses in. but it was always like it was my fault, and i did something wrong. it was never cheap hits, just like spelunky, meaning it's never the games fault.
sirsnow This is a good design ideal for games. It always feels right, and never truly frustrating when done well.
Awesome video! And thank you for using hyper light drifter! The game is so underrated.
***** As do I.
Oh my gooooosh I love hyper light drifter!
This is absolutely one of my favorite videos on this channel. Not only is it incredibly usefull as someone who just makes games for fun and isn't skilled enough to make things past NES style sprites, but it also always makes me want to play Shovel Knight again. I have a 3DS, PC, Vita, PS3 and PS4 and I've completed every campaign on every Console as it's released. I get tired of it naturally, but this video and other videos on the game make me go back and really think about it. Thank you for making love one of my favorite games ever even more!
such a great video! the info, the presentation, the slick editing, everything! seriously! great job!
😄👍
dear lord that Dr Light sounded like Dom Deluise had his soul sucked out (and into a skateboard).
we will find docta wowie!
Doctor wallwy
W-Megaman.
Docter Wowie!
Lol saw a review of that Skateboard movie with him, so bad :P
I want a game with nostalgic throwbacks to Zelda 2 where you fuck randos for health.
Grand Theft Auto?
In real life it'd do the opposite. ;)
so progressive!
I remember two throwbacks to Zelda 2: Elliot Quest and Super Win the Game (I prefer Elliot Quest among those).
Turbo Button Wait what?
MOOAR!! I've been devouring your videos inbetween my classes this semester and I watched almost all of your stuff in the past week. You've been reminding me why I love so many games and why some games never really sat well with me. Love your stuff and can't wait to see the next Toolkit or Boss Key!!!
Easily one of your best videos. Loved how you broke down what exactly made people who loved 8-bit games love this, and then compared to other retro-inspired titles.
Spot on analysis, Mark. I've noticed some similar treatment concerning nostalgia with Stranger Things. It heavily borrows from multiple sources of eighties horror movies, keeps in the best parts and modernizes the things that felt anachronistic. Of course, there's also other points of quality that make it a fantastic series. They have talented actors, better special effects and use modern science to legitimize the plot.
With both Shovel Knight and Stranger Things, it doesn't really matter that the source material isn't completely original, because they're both done so well. Cheers!
Yes! I was thinking of including Stranger Things for this exact reason but I wasn't sure what people would think of a non-gaming example.
We'd be fine with it! The same principles apply, regardless of media-type!
Loved this vid, man! Definitely supporting you in the near future!! :)
I can't speak for the rest of the internet, but I love your work and think bringing in other media types to support your thesis would be perfectly acceptable. Thanks for the reply!
The perfect 2D platformer will never be made, there's so much mileage in the genre, the possibilities are infinite. So I'm glad it has made somewhat of a comeback, along with other types of game which were considered "outmoded" when the 3D revolution happened and suddenly everything was about realism and "omg look at the graffiphckxxsss!!!!!". When oldschool games were discarded it seems to me somewhat like when perfectly usable iPads are ditched for the next model, or when Yahoo decides to ditch it's old, perfectly functional messenger to replace it with something with a modern interface but with the functional equivalence to a brick that you can write messages on and throw at people.
I guess what I'm saying is the formula for these old games was never broke and can always be refined and re-iterated upon. What makes it great is that these games are often even better than the "good old" games from back in the day, because of what we've learned about level design, and of course the lack of any kind of physical memory limitations.
This is absolutely one of my favorite series on all of youtube. Well done Mark!
Since I grew up with the Gameboy Advance and Gamecube, my appreciation for retro games isn't based on nostalgia, but rather by the legacy that these games have, and the influence they had on games today. As such, that's why Shovel Knight was such a great game for me, as it felt so nostalgic even though I don't have nostalgia for the retro games that Shovel Knight emulates and improves upon. It was just very fun, with just the right amount of challenge.
I look forward to your future videos and content.
Thank you for putting the games list in all your video descriptions! Really liking your videos!
I LOVE to death Shovel Knight, the only thing I don't like is the fact that even with middle checkpoints, some levels take me more than an hour to finish, and if you leave the level without finishing it, you have to play it all over again, which is not good for people who just want a quick platform fix. Maybe I'm complaining because I'm a father with almost no time, but I would love to have the chance to save the game in mid level.
Pretty sure dark souls didn't invent the whole 'you drop money when you die and have to manually get it back' thing.
Maybe not, but it's the one you can name that the most amount people can go "Oh, yeah, like that!" to.
Youa Numbah Oneah Racist That's just more reason to mention the games that did it beforehand, and help them get the credit for it.
It was actually pretty common in early MMOs; forgetting them is doing gaming history a disservice.
Wasn't this even a Diablo II thing? Yes, that far.
(Might have something to do with its proto-MMO parts that weren't that "massive", but were there)
This was also a thing in Digimon World 4, obscure as that is, nowadays.
Sonic?
Watched a few of your vids after checking out the first Boss Keys episode. Well-made and great sound and video mixing! Subscribed!
A finite number of lives is one of the things I think more modern retro games should preserve. Games with infinite retries and a save system can never really replicate the excitement of reaching new area with only your last life left and just trying to get further than last time. The later levels of old games had this kind of magical feel about them, because they were so hard to reach and there was no save point, so you couldn't just put the controller down and come back tomorrow.
The graphic work in this is incredible
I'd like to see a video of what part music plays in games
+openquin1 I've got a video on adaptive soundtracks on my channel, if that's any interest to ya?
+Mark Brown (Game Maker's Toolkit) Missed that and yes, will check it out
Can't get over how good the production design on this one is.
Excellent analysis, and super well-produced as always! I really can't praise your videos enough! Those title screens at the beginning are fantastic haha
What a great episode, Mark, thanks for all the hard work.
As for the "progressive" element, neither commentors nor gamers really mind it as long as it's done properly. In fact, the only comments I see about it are people actually explaining why it's all good and you don't need to worry about hateful comments. ;)
But who's the one to decide if it's being done properly or not?
I mean, Beam Dog wanted to add in a trans character to Baulder's Gate (I think), because they wanted to (And the studio knows how to do it well), and gamers lost their minds because it wasn't done 'properly', which is really to say, they didn't want it done at all.
Iliya Moroumetz If it fits with world and story, for starters, which it didn't with Baldur's Gate - that one was shoehorned in and generally awful.
But it did fit. The writers made it fit. It was others who declared that trans people have no place in the world, despite the fact they were not the ones who made the decision.
By your line of logic, technology should never, ever appear in a fantasy story, because it wouldn't fit with the world and story, yet, we have thousands upon thousands of stories where that happens.
It's almost as absurd as those who use 'historical accuracy' whenever the non-white people in the Witcher 3 is brought up, despite the fact it's a fictional world that can be edited, revised, and updated.
The bottom line; something done 'properly' is a matter of personal opinion, and not as concrete as you'd like to think it is.
Iliya Moroumetz And what logic is that? You can't try to reframe "my logic" if you don't even know what it is. You know, it would be pretty crap if in The Lord of the Rings, Aragorn suddenly got out a phone and called up the Dúnedain, because it wasn't established before and would seem random and pointless. Similar case: The "trans" character from Baldur's Gate.
Hoo boy, you cited Witcher 3. It's been said before and I'll say it again: Eastern European cultures are extremely poorly represented in games. Witcher 3 is extremely important in that respect, but you don't even see it because in your eyes, it's just white people, right? Hypocrisy, thy name is Iliya Moroumetz.
Historical accuracy makes perfect sense as an argument. Witcher 3 is based entirely on Polish folklore, and it sticks close to that. You're demeaning the concept of fiction and fantasy by ignoring the value of consistency.
How about listening to an actual Polish person on the topic instead of pushing your own culture and cultural biases on people:
medium.com/@adrianchm/on-the-witcher-3-and-racial-quotas-in-art-e6a9f594439#.34tulh3k4
Not really... Gandalf used a 'cell phone' of sorts to escape Isengard. A trans character can exist in a D&D world, hell, the Pathfinder (A D&D spinoff) game has a trans character in it, a dwarf named Paizo. So, if anything, to say something can't exist in a FICTIONAL world is pretty telling what your biases. creative limits, and prejudices are.
And again, historical accuracy has no grounds in a FICTIONAL world. Want to know why? It's dependent upon the person writing the FICTION in the first place! If a person wants to be more thoughtful and add tons of PoC in relevant and important roles, fantastic. If a writer wants to be a douche and only make token black guys to kill off, well fuck that guy and his garbage writing.
Ever heard about the musical Hamilton by Lin-Manuel Miranda? Where the cast is comprised of black and latino performers? By your logic, that should not have happened at all. But it has and you're just gonna have to deal with the fact that rules for fiction are not as set in stone as you'd like to think they are.
I don't think your bit on the game being more progressive was anything bad. I can totally understand why a lot of people want to push for more strong female characters. It's only when people start defending blindingly stupid arguments like "Mario is sexist because subject object dichotomy, and Peach is being acted upon...(_donate to my Patreon_)" that it becomes a problem.
So you're just uncomfortable with calling it "sexist" instead of "not progressive"?
I mean Mark basically called "rescuing your princess" (like in Mario?) not progressive.
TheWischmop I actually think calling it sexist is fucking stupid. How does rescuing a woman, or even just portraying them as weak, mean you hate them? And I'm not politically progressive at all, I just didn't find what he said all that inflammatory.
The problem isn't when women are in games, it's when women are literally men with tits. It feels so forced and unnatural that you don't even care for the story. Alien isolation is a great game with an awesome story because while Ripley did end up overcoming her obstacles, the devs weren't afraid to show her weak side as well. That's the main problem, when devs make women, they're to scared to show any weakness because some land whale will end up calling it sexist. That's why I hate this whole progressive movement, why not just let the writers tell the story that they want and that they're comfortable with?
TopHatPangolin If you have to resort to thinking there's some hidden expectation of sex going on in Mario's mind to call it sexist, you're kind of stretching your argument. Especially since the games are meant for children.
A thousand times this, holy shit women were fucking useless in practical matters (to a very lesser extent still are) and it's not fucking sexist to mention a fact
I didn't grow up at the time of the NES generation and never really played the games to completion, but regardless of nostalgia those games had simple mechanics that were sensible and rewarding and Shovel Knight knew how to apply them.
Also I'm glad you finally got to talk about Hyper Light Drifter after you useda song from it in an outro a while back!
Shovel knight is my favorite game ever, but it isn't just a nostalgia box. It is it's own game. So glad he remembered this.
So basically you're saying I should play Shovel Knight?
Yes there is a free version online. However I really think you should just by it to support the devs but if you really want to play the game get the free version
I purchased shovel knight in the airport to play on the plane, and then immediately left the 3DS in the airport chair, while i flew to texas.
MBisonYes this is 2 years late but rip
The best thing Shovel Knight did was focus on being good over being nostalgic. The best way to know that is through someone like me, who is too young to have played the NES or SNES when I was a kid. I have no nostalgia for these types of games, yet I still love Shovel Knight. So when you make a game, no matter what it is, your main focus should be making it enjoyable over anything else.
Oooh the Mighty No. 9 jab! Nice, thought that might come up while talking about nostalgia.
Another great video Mark! I especially enjoyed those old styled game intros in the beginning. You almost made me want to play a game called Microtransactions haha
Hey Marc Brown, I had a good suggestions for you, it might be a good idea to research colour theory a little bit, how to make good choices in terms of hue, saturation and darkness/light easy values, this could be very useful when making these videos, colours are a massive part of video games and if a game has a background with poor colour choices, it can look nasty and ugly, then there also the mood the colours create, if you have a monochromatic scheme, that is orange or something then the game can look hot and dry, while a colour scheme where all the colours and desaturated, can make it seem depressing or lifeless, a colour scheme with lots of contrast, such as a Triadic or complementary scheme, can make the level feel more chaotic and lively, while a colour scheme with not much contrast like an analogous colour scheme will make for a calm atmosphere, another thing is that if the developers wanted to focus on one particular thing, they could use an analogous colour scheme with 1 complementary colour to make that thing contrasts and stand out among everything else, basically I’m saying maybe look into this, I think it is a massive part of creating an environment for the player and is pretty important, but anyways great video man :)
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Whatever you do, do NOT blow into the cartridge! That damages it!
Incredible video that highlights every single thing I love about this game. It's time for another playthrough! :)
Props for the graphics and sound on this video, it does look awesome!
I feel like such an "Anime Fan on Prom Night" for funding Mighty No. 9
I have only one thing to complain about in this video, and it's that you're saying that Shovel Knight ripped off the respawn system from Dark Souls... Even though this system has existed even before that, and has been rather common in video games for a quite long time.
Not the respawn system; it took the 'Lose your Souls/Gold if you die' as a method of punishing the player.
+Revolsin Yes, and that's exactly what I meant by that as well. There were already games that punished you like that.
I never heard from any game that used that mechanic before Dark Souls. I am curious - can you name some?
Same complaint, lots of game did that way before Dark Souls. The most well-known example that I can remember is Runescape in the wilderness.
+Wolfaron As the sole method? I can't think of many. Either way, the game that popularizes the concept is one it's usually taken from, which I imagine is what he meant.
Intensely observed source material and comparison to shovel knight and HLD really helped me articulate my intrigue for the nostalgic topic this week. And nice job with the splash art intro.
What I love about Shovel Knight is that it isn't even trying to give people nostalgia, it's just trying to be a good game on its own merits. In fact, it feels more like a modern game with 8-bit graphics.
How is Shield Knight "progressive"? You rescue her the same as any other princess type figure, except she helps you in the final fight, which has been done before, so its not exactly breaking new ground. Zelda did this in Wind Waker, yet she also wasn't disposed from the outset. She went from adventuring, to hiding, to being captured near the end then to participating in the final fight.
+Mastu Denton Well, Shield Knight is taken over by a spell, rather than captured by a male (the usual trope), she's powerful like Shovel Knight, and they work together like equals to win. Yes, Wind Waker is a good example of Nintendo subverting the damsel trope.
As is Ocarina, depending on the interpretation of Sheik. If we assume it's canon that she retains her consciousness and is merely wearing a disguise, that Zelda does a tremendous job thwarting Ganondorf using her intelligence, resources, and training. For the bulk of the game, she doesn't need to be rescued, and she is never really presented as a reward for Link.
As shame, really, that the non-game adaptations go out of their way to dilute Zelda's accomplishments. In particular, the manga states that Impa seals away her conciousness, essentially making Sheik and Zelda different people of different genders.
I can't wait for Shovel Knight 2 with a disabled transgender black woman that kills every single male she comes across.
Progressive for an NES game, not progressive in general. Sure, Wind Waker does this too, but it isn't from the NES era, which is what he's talking about.
Neither is Shovel Knight
4:29 It's really sad that nowdays you expect backlash when praising a video game for being progressive...
its also sad when you expect backlash for not being as "progressive" as other developers,its like its a goddamn contest to see who can kiss the most ass, or lose the most self respect.
+Vrenna
When the opposition of progressives are often literal neonazis with racist, sexist, bigoted views that shout and shut down people for even acknowledging these topics, you have no excuse.
+Hung Tang it's kind of ironic that you say that when most progressive m ovements are just as bigoted racist and sexist, but Its different because they're punching up at abusive power structures.Because we all know that being progressive is just repackaging racism and sexism and sending it to someone with "privilege", rather than end it for everyone.
Vrenna- "As long as you call something progressive, the opposition must shut up because they must totally be barbarians."
Hung Tang- "When the opposition of progressives are often literal neonazis with racist, sexist, bigoted views that shout and shut down people for even acknowledging these topics, you have no excuse."
Case and point. By the way have you ever seen a Trump rally during the primaries, the savages known as Bernie supporters were hammering down on Trump supporters like there's no tomorrow. While the Trump supporters who did attack others were very rare (I could probably count the amount on my fingers). You call the opposition sexist, racist and bigoted even though your side clearly shows more hatred. While right wingers condemn actual neo-nazis (which are a very small group), liberals actively support and promote the hatred and beating of anyone who dares question any of their actions(such as BLM and the MSM).
The problem is how color blind our brains, just because there are idiots who are liberals, mostly radical feminists complaining about objectification or some other bull, people group all liberals together as complete idiots. I agree that there should be more female characters in video games, and to some people, that makes me a brainless SJW, while my thoughts on the black lives matters movement makes me a racist in other people's eyes.
I think one of, if not the MOST amazing part of shovel knight for me was it's ability to spark nostalgia in a generation of gaming I never had the chance to live whilst it was new, fresh, and exciting. Like i've always adored retro gaming, the earliest I can remember is playing Super Mario Kart on my cousin's SNES and Adventure on my plug and play 2600 controller, and throughout the years i've picked up consoles here and there - but I never had that chance to sit there glued to my tiny ass CRT until 3am trying to find the secret rooms in Super Metroid, I was too busy screaming at some kid in Venezuela for camping on Shipment (Which i'm not proud of but hey ho, we all have a past).
And Shovel Knight comes along on every damn platform down to a toaster, leaves me there at 4:30am with my girlfriend desperately trying to sleep next to me as I throw my 3ds of the balcony because every FUCKIN TIME I try to get my gold back Captain fuckin spikey spike impales me for the 52nd time and I have 5 gold left. But it's not real rage that boils within, it's all a part of the genuine challenge that came with that era of gaming it captures - the timing, the muscle memory, the fact no matter how FUCKIN HARD it is, I still want to play it.
And now i've finished it, all I want is more.
Which is great because there IS more, the NES Library, the SNES Library, the Mega Drive's - not to mention the metric fuck ton of handheld releases too.
Basically if you haven't played this yet what in the fling flamin fuck are you doing?
You got a 3ds? Pick it up. PC? Steam sale, GOG, Humble bundle. Basically any console from the PS3 to the switch? Look no further.
I’m not exactly nostalgic over 8-bit and 16-bit, so Shovel Knight only stuck to me as retro-styled. Even so, it’s a solid retro indie game that I enjoyed greatly.
Shield Knight was great and no shit it's more progressive than 30 year old games. The problem with the "progressive" mind set right now is that they imply you are sexist, out right call the game sexist or that you are "subconsciously" sexist for liking retro games where a main female character gets kidnapped as the main plot point.
Same with trying to shame people for preferring or enjoying scantily clad or sexually aggressive females. It's a nice change of pace for sure, but I don't think not kidnapping a female character makes a game worse, or necessarily better.
problem with the "progressive" mind set right now is that they imply you are sexis
No, that's just you being defensive and projecting insecurities on an argument that was never said.
If someone says a movie has stupid elements, or is stupid because of X element (such as a bad ending, nonsensical plot, or massive plotholes five year olds can see through), this does not magically say that everyone who likes such movies is stupid, and nobody would be so insecure to go into a frothing rage whenever someone calls a movie stupid.
This is not magically different when we replace "stupid" with sexist. The difference isn't the criticism, the criticism is your defensiveness.
Case in point, I like several Metroids quite well. OtherM's still sexist as hell, though. And if you think this implies anything about you, then that's your issue, and your projection.
The problem with gamers these days is that they cannot handle any criticism, really. I mean, gamers even freak out utterly when someone reports a game like FFXV or No Man's Sky get delayed. Gamers freaking out over feminism doesn't seem that different there. It's the same thing really, a complete failure to understand that criticism of something one likes doesn't imply criticism of you.
Fen Y Seems you are projecting quite a bit there.
By the way, you've never had someone imply yoiu are stupid for watching stuff like Jackass, or Jersey Shore or heck entire mediums like anime or video games? It's a common thing for ignorant people to say.
I was referring to quotes from progressives (by their own admission) like: "In other words, viewing media that frames women as objects or sexual playthings, profoundly impacts how real life women are perceived and treated in the world around us. And that is all without even taking into account how video games allow for the more participatory form of objectification that we’ve been discussing in this episode."
So yeah, I think that is implying that damsels in distress for example are promoting sexist attitudes. Yet you react defensively and imply I am being defensive. I only said I had problems with it, I might agree with it partially or completely for instance but dislike the way it is being said, but you assumed I was being defensive. Hell you implied I had the same attitude as the dipshits who sent death threats to journalists over delay and paint.
Yeah, the thing is, Shovel Knight never rubbed in our faces how competent and progressive and empowered Shield Knight is. The game just told us "Hey, there was also this Knight who was Shovel Knight's companion and they were like the most awesome team ever." And so we know that she was a competent knight from that, and the game then never insists on pushing it in our faces. Quite the opposite, the game allows her to be a strong person but have Shovel Knight still have his protective feelings about her (as evidenced by the dream sequences in which you try to catch her), which seems kind of ironic considering she is the one carrying the shield. I guess it is just supposed to display how they both share this attitude towards each other. It was pretty obvious that Shovel Knight is really into Shield Knight, from the very start. The thing is, the game actually does something that is *very* progressive, but not just for sake of being progressive: It's final boss battle. I love it. It is a pretty progressive thing to do, because it shows Shield Knight as a strong partner to Shovel Knight instead of this poor damsel in distress. And that is totally fine. The thing that makes it great though (imo) is how it is done in a way that actually makes the whole game better. Seeing Shield Knight and Shovel Knight fight together to overcome the greatest threat of the game that none of them could overcome on their own (which is even communicated to us by making the boss literally unbeatable without Shield Knight) was what changed her position from the girl I was rescuing that was supposedly a great knight of her own, into a great ally of Shovel Knight, and the companion that she was supposed to be. And the way you are required to bounce of her shield is awesome because up to now you as Shovel Knight were the one taking on the world to save *her* but now that she males herself the one thing elevating you towards your goal, you are now relying on *her* to help *you* out, and the way she without hesitation makes herself the only thing between your and the abyss below, she is now the one who will keep you from falling (stark juxtaposition to the chatch-her-dreams) I saw a feeling of mutual unbreakable trust expressed in that. Shovel Knight would without a second thought rely on Shield Knight completely, because showing how she is as determined to not let Shovel Knight down as he is to be relyable to her. And instead of a Kiss on the cheek or a "Congratz you're the hero of Hyrule!" I as the player get a display of the friendship and touching connection that was the driving force behind this whole adventure, and I feel like all the effort Shovel Knight went through to save Shield Knight was 200% worth it, and I'm willing to bet that Shoeld Knight would have done the same for him if any harm were to come his way. It gives me as a player way more satisfaction from a story perspective than old rescue-the-princess-games do. Because Shield Knight is not simply a mcguffin, but she contributes and males me apprechiate her and Shovel Knight more, making the victory feel more meaningful than it would otherwise have. I don't think every game has to be ultra progressive, but if you can pull of such a great thing with a little spin on an established story *and* make it a bit more progressive in the process, sure! Go right ahead! I'm all for that.
ZenoDovahkiin Yeah, I think it was a well realized character, I also liked they ever went for explicitly telling us if they were in a romantic relationship, mostly that SK was pretty defensive and saddened by him not being able to be with her partner. Plus the final Boss battle does help to see the relationship instead of just telling us about it and like you mentioned, it's almost a co-op battle because both characters pull their weight in it.
I think it's better done than something like Cave Story and the more recent Zelda games where sure, Curly and Zelda help you, but they are less involved overall.
ew275x Yeah, involving Zelda a little more would be nice. I'd also love Zelda to get her own game for once.
"ended up reminding us of his worst traits"
Pretty harsh if that's all you took from the game, to be honest. Maybe you're letting pre-release issues and drama influence your judgement?
Anyhow, I'd be interested in seeing an in-depth analysis of MN9 from you.
i think it's really neat how when they made the japanese localization, they looked at what stuff often got changed in the NES days when games were brought stateside and instead of doing a straight translation, they made the game that would have become the original shovel knight
Sound effects cutting into audio channels can be made into a dynamic music system if done right. In the original Super Mario Bros, one reason collecting coins is so satisfying is because it temporarily mutes audio channels to make the other channels stand out.
Welp, the comments on the whole "progressive" thing are cancer, but here's my 2 cents anyway. There's nothing sexist about portraying a woman, or several women, as weak, unless there is some indication that they are meant to represent all women, which I've never seen. It IS cliche, and Shovel Knight is better for avoiding this, but I'd say because it's different, not "progressive".
In fact, I think this is more or less true of most "progressive" things. I don't think it's sexist that women are dressed sexily more often than not, nor do I think it's sexist that they're dressed sexy when everyone else is dressed practically, but I do think those tropes are stale and ridiculous respectively. The problem with calling something "progressive", is that it needlessly inject morality, politics, or something resembling one of those things, into the discussion, and often fails to justify it, or gives a paper thin hand wave.
If anyone wants to explain why the damsel in distress trope (or any other trope for that matter) is sexist, please do so. If you can't, maybe stick to calling that trope cliche instead. Also, maybe don't take for granted that the trope is sexist. Maybe actually reconsider your position.
Lastly, please try to remember that just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they're diametrically opposed to you either. I see a guy in the comments getting called "sexist" for having a different opinion on what constitutes sexism, which is absurd. When you make accusations like that over disagreement, all you're doing is making your own position look childish to outsiders.
Shut up !
"making Shield Knight capable"
and, you know, still needing to be saved and only surviving seemingly on another dude's sacrifice :O
Let's not over paint something they were not aiming for lol.
Ticking that box off to make a video aside, this video is wonderful. Nailed exactly what needs to be done for a nostalgia game
I know this comment is two years old, but I'd like to point out that Yacht Club also added the option of changing the gender of just about every character in the game if you wish, so they clearly went to great lenghts to subvert "save the princess" tropes.
French subtitles sent to exam, coming in the following hours ^.^
Les sous-titres français ont été envoyés pour examination, ils arrivent dans les prochaines heures ^.^
Question apart, what do you think of Doom, and the way he's actually reminiscent to the 1993 one while modernising the formula ? Thanks c:
Thanks for the French subs! Have only played a bit of Doom but I think it did a great job: it kept in all the good stuff about Doom but added new ideas with verticality and melee. The old health system is there but made more lenient with health for every melee kill. And I'm glad it went with that weird gothic sci-fi style rather than whatever Doom 3 was doing
Wow, how did I not see theese videos before? this channel is awesome!
A tidbit going forward-
Don't reference the fucko's by saying "This'll get me in trouble", because all that does is validate a very small minority in the game dev scene. Let the few ramble about, let the centrists proclaim how they're centrists, and act like nothing ever happened.
actually, calling this game progressive for having the shield knight be this or that is straight up stupid. Let's take a look at the NES:
You saved a princess. A role that rarely went into war (unlike a prince who was trained in the art of war) and was brought up to be diplomatic. Thus, it's more a matter of position (how often do you save a girl that's not a princess? Double dragon, 2 heavily trained martial artists, and they kidnap the GF because that's how the gang is getting back at the bros). Not many.
Then, look at metroid. Samus Aran, a badass space pirate hunter, amazing skilled and talented bounty hunter. But, we hated women back then, right?
Look at your progressive shovel knight....trained, skilled female warrior goes off without her man at her side and gets into trouble, and requires her man to come and save her. At the end, she was nothing but a shield (which is as much a vagina as a shovel is a penis). In the end, shovel knight saves her, and what role does she play? 'Healer'.
She keeps him from dying, and plays the support role. Her life is worth less then his, so she sacrafices herself for his sake.
So progressive.
Strong female character vs strong character who is female, shield knight is more of a Katniss than a Ripley.
Mark, one important piece of game design that was overlooked. This game has different control figurations. You can play the game by essentially using the same amount of buttons as a NES controller. You will have to go in to the menu etc to change your weapons and hold up and square (ps4 controller) to use your special abilities. OR you can utilise the extra buttons that the dualshock has an have your weapon cycle set to the shoulder buttons and also have a dedicated button for special attacks.
The fact this game is designed with a NES controller in mind is great, but you also don't have to be burdened with the button restrictions if you don't want to.
It's been said dozens of times before, but Shovel Knight is really good of invoking how we imagined old games looks like rather than completely replicating them. It also manages to keep stuff from the classics while not adhering to how relentlessly merciless in difficulty they were (but still provide a reasonable challenge, in a multitude of ways). It truly embodies the notion of a "modern-day classic".
"It's charming and funny without relying on memes or grown-worthy references" I'm lookin at you Undertale.
lol, pls
that's not a very nuanced view of the game at all
Er, why?
Care to elaborate?
Undertale didn't use memes (AKA groan-worthy references) for the dialogue, the dialogue created the memes.
It's also ironic that right as he's saying that, the dialogue box reads "I'm not a witch!!!" which is a reference to The Princess Bride
So I guess NES didn't have any """""""""""""progressive""""""""""""" games that flipped tropes on their head.
Metroid doesn't count because Nintendo doesn't care about it anymore.
Look, I'm with you. This progressive bs is getting outta hand now a days and I don't like it as much as the next guy. Metroid is my favourite game series by leagues.
But let's be honest for a second, In the past, durring the NES era, the amount of games where you're a strong male hero saving a damsel in distress i much much MUCH higher than any other hero->reward trope. Whether it's metroid's case with samus and the reward being stopping the space pirates, or it being a male hero protagonist saving/gaining/winning something that doesn't have to do with a damsel or love interest. It's just documented fact and there's nothing inherently wrong with it. Super hero comics were like that for a time too way back in time.
what's important is that we still use that trope, but not to the extent that we once did. Because it is a fine trope, there's nothing inherently wrong with it, it just gets repetitive and stale, and laughable once you see it so much.
So thankfully we're progressive people, and have adapted and implemented different tropes, and ones sport females as the hero too, or both. It's nice to have a change of pace.
PROGRESSIVE DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH NEW-WAVE FEMINISM, FOR FUCK'S SAKE. (Also, let's not forget that in Metroid you are rewarded with Samus taking off her suit and revealing herself in various states of undress depending on your score).
Darc Gibson They tout themselves as progressive, and a lot of people call it "being progressive" and "PC", but really they're just regressive assholes.
Arexsis men saved girls most likely because boys were targeted to buy these games and did.
Actually throughout history there have been many stories told by humans about heroism. One of the most iconic being the prince saving the princess from the dragon in a cave or some shit like that. Throughout history we have told men, if they want to be popular and be liked by girls, then they would have to be heroic. Girls in average are weaker than men, so it makes sense for people to put women at the end of the cave, for some guy to save them. Why do you think superhero shit is so popular amongst men?
4:08 . This area is the exact moment where The Game Grumps were playing and Danny goes into a laughing fit saying "We have a video game show that we do for a living!"
Your videos are awesome. Thanks for the hard work you put into them!
Plague of Shadows is better
I really loved playing as Plague Knight. It's a little hard to get used to in the beginning, but it gets really intuitive as the game opens up. I'm honestly amazed they managed to make the game flow so well despite all his different abilities.
The movement is some of the most fun I've ever had in platforming.
I hope so because I bought Shovel Knight treasure trove for the Swith which contains all the Shovel Knight games and I was disappointed with the first game. 6.5 of 10 is my rating it just isn't fun and the level design is not great. It's a mediocre clone of classic games that are way better. Modern gamers have low standards apparently.
GrankFarrett nice bait
GrankFarrett Try harder
saying that the choice about shield knight is progressive is pretty insulting to me, and maybe im just giving a more positive reading of the authors intent but to boil it down to the only reason this character isnt a generic damsel is because current year is pretty cheap.
My explanation is entirely based upon this being a post modern game its all about playing with the "genre" conventions of nes games carefully picking areas to follow and subvert them, its a conscious choice on behalf of the creators to keep the games story consistent within this theme.
Also this not being a nes game and therefore limited by its size means that it can include an actual story and cut scenes that werent possible in nes games which is one of the major reasons the games of that era relied so heavily on basic stories and tropes.
So you need more powerful machines to be progressit ? Okay
You are familiar with Shovel Knight's Body Swap update, right?
Goes to show that a good game gives two damns about prejudice.
Also, You do know that Yatch Club Games wanted a game
that felt like a NES title if it was released on 2014, right?
Goes to show that a good game can be built upon basic stories and tropes,
and doesn't need stupid gimmicks or a AAA budget spent on non-game aspects.
By the way, you do own Steam's Shovel Knight, right?
Goes to show, well, the obvious (besides getting free DLCs that console players have to pay for).
Horus SC
Reading TheNejD's comment and your reply to him... I cant' understand where you're coming from.
NejD's comment, in no stance, denies what you wrote. He's merely saying giving the "damsel in distress" a personality and some weight to the narrative doesn't necessarily make the game progressive.
I don't know where your prejudice comment came from. The second paragraph is 100% true, but comes out of the left field on this conversation, since it doesn't connect to anything he said.
And so what if he owns SK on Steam? What is that supposed to prove?
maybe shield knight was just a cool side character and you dont have to find problems with everything
As he predicted! That opinion would cause the comments to run rampant!
I was just listening to this episode but I kind of flinched when he mentioned blowing in a cartridge...
Insightful and inspirational. Brilliant video, I'll definitely have these tips in mind when making games.
Hello there,
I'm here to get offended over the fact that you praised the game for being more progressive than early NES games.
Thanks for paying attention to me.
word
I think most people find trouble with it being mentioned as “progressive” female characters are now (through the decades) have a shit tone of beautiful and great characters
It’s as useless a titbit to mention as it is to nitpick making you and the people who nitpicking it seem like weirdos
Good video anyways man
Nice to see you picked up Mighty No. 9 at the end. All the marketing aside, the biggest transgression in terms of gameplay in MN9 was definitely the amount of insta-kills coupled with the lives-system.
Nostalgia - what people think they remember.
Case in point - running 8-bit & 16-bit emulators without any post-processing filters