Yup, not over driving them. What's the difference in running a 3ph motor on 3ph and running a 3ph motor on 3ph? Good question right? Over driving beyond 60 Hz is the problem. Been running my 1944 Dewalt RAS with a VFD for going on 5 years now almost daily with no problems. Oh and it runs for hours at a time sometimes, doesn't even get warm. Have you tried it? Did you run one a 120Hz and wonder why in failed? Did you let the smoke out? Just wondering if you actually did something or your just making up something to say just to leave a comment. Easy to go negative. Try positive instead. Maybe this will work? What are the limitations? Do I need to run at 600 Hz because the VFD is rated for it? What's the application? How much load is there? On and on.....Thanks for commenting.
Running 2 vfds but i have motors rated for them. and low hz also causes problems. I have a 10 hp leblond nc converting to cnc. debating on running the old 10 hp on an inverter or not.
Yes low Hz can also cause issues. In my experience the motors seem to strain more going high as opposed to low. I try to stay at 60Hz for sustained runs but do adjust up or down a bit somethings to dial in. No problems so far. The biggest issue I have read about or that comes up the most is bearing failure due to the carrier frequency. Watching out for that. 10 hp is a lot. The higher you go the more lose you will have. Just my thought, never dealt with more than 3 hp for a VFD. How are you running now? Hope your shop is back together!
are you referring to my video. lol nope its not going to happen. no money got screwed by insurance. I have a 30 x50 shop still standing. and its full. the lathe is not running yet doing the mods. different servos an such.
I have a Rockwell mill with what I think are bad bearings in the motor. Runs OK, but periodically makes "honk" sounds which I think is vibration. It's very random, and sometimes is constant. Might change the 110 motor out to a 3phase with a vfd.
My head exploded with all that “VF& SFL” talk, it’s all French to me!! I’ve never been a electrician type person! When I start working on electrics the electrons start leaking all over the floor and I end up with a big puddle of them or me screaming because I’ve just electrocuted myself!!! So well done and good for you.
Sealed bearings last as long as the grease remains in the race. Smaller bearings hold less grease, and dry up first. They put the big bearing in the front to handle the lateral load from the belt, but it also happens to hold more greasee allowing it to live longer. In machines I service with a grease zerk on both ends, both bearings last forever (If maintained).
At last someone who really does do a restoration. Not a quick wipe with an oily rag and a lick of paint. Your work reminds me of the Swiss guy (my mechanics) who works to a perfect restoration, not to a time limit. Well done.
@@BurtonsAttic - you said it! Still, I love to watch and pretend. I am working on a Monarch 14WAA and a unique Southbend 16 at the same time. Sometimes I think OMG what have I done! You show me that there is a glorious end after just 16 or so 30 minute videos. You are a machine GAWD! Thankyou
@@BurtonsAttic - ya funny! I am currently editing another note to you pertaining to just one major problem related to working on more then one at a time. You´ll have it in a minute.
You did a great job with this project. I acquired a Jet JVM-840 in similar condition for free. The 1.5hp 3PH motor was dead so I decided to do a DC conversion since I was able to get motor and drive for under $90. Really enjoyed watching the restoration. Subscribed
an excellent machinist using a great mechanical pencil..lol...not surprised...You are a meticulous and exacting worker..fantastic series..enjoyed it very much..and i can tell you surely enjoyed this too!
Your videos are extremely satisfying to watch. I just binge watched this milling machine restoration. Now I have go back into the attic. It's like an addiction.
Modern VFDs with sensorless vector control are great, not as powerful as real gears, but close enough for daily use. This is why I like machines with a back gear and VFD, best of both worlds in my mind. Keep it going!
Haven't used in much in backgear with the VFD yet. I have a NMTB30 ER40 tool holder for the horizontal now. I was thinking to do a video on it and the RPM sensor mount for that spindle.
Nice job. If you want to take it the rest of the way, like the last 5%, scrape the ways and cut proper oil groves into the ways. Then the machine will be super smooth, super rigid, will give great finishes and last forever. And scraping is a fun skill to learn. Lots of info on CZcams. I always liked the Rockwell mill. Way better than a ru fong milldrill.
I just found your channel (Part 1 of your mill restoration series was in my recommended list,) and I gotta say, you really brought that mill back from the dead! Subbed and shared for sure! Now that I'm finished with the mill series, I'm of to go binge watch the rest of your channel. Thanks for doing what you do! Hope to see a lot more in the future!
I'm going now back, rewatch the whole series and put the like button on all vids! I'm sorry your vids don't have more likes bc this series on mill repair is THE BEST! (Damn yt algorithm) your paint job is fantastic, your explanations to point, your knowledge of vfd is of a professional. Your skills and patience to do this, are huge! I'm 3 years late but to answer your last question: yes please talk on forever about how old machines controllers can be replaced with vfd. I wish ToT could help you grow your channel.
Well done sir! This restoration series was nothing shy of addictive. Watched all 6 installments in a single sitting. I appreciate that you're focused on function - but with your attention to detail, the machine ends up looking gorgeous as well. Should bring you many years of reliable service. Please keep up the great work and keep the videos coming!
Great job on the motors and the controls. I restored a 5 hp motor on a DeWalt GE from 1942, when I opened it up the windings were like it just came from the factory after I blew out all the sawdust. New bearings and it runs smooth as silk.
Wow I really enjoyed this entire project. When I first saw the mill I thought it's too far gone to bring it back. Just great work and dedication all around, I can't believe you manged to get it looking and working like a new machine. Great editing and narration too. I hope a lot more people start watching this! I'd be interested to see some measurements in the future as to what kind of precision it's still capable of, considering the rust had been nibbling away at it.
Hey thanks for the kind works Phil! Believe it or not all of the precision surfaces (with the exception of the table top) where well protected and cleaned up with no pitting! The table has some very minor pitting, more like etching at the far ends. So no big deal as you would very rarely need to use the very end of the table. The 2 U shaped brackets that I made to mount the control box are accurate to .001"/.025mm with no DRO! With a DRO I'm sure that .0005" is possible and I do plan to put one on it at some point in the future. Glad you enjoyed it!
@@BurtonsAttic Good to know, this whole project makes me look at old rusted up machines like that in a totally different light. I guess the rust doesn't penetrate as deep into the alloys they use for these machines and it looks much worse than it is. Looking forward to seeing the mill in action some more
@@PhilVandelay it's all cast iron. One observation that I have made over time working with rusty stuff is that the smoother the surface is to begin with it doesn't pit as bad if at all. Once the rust forms it's kind of like a protective barrier. The rougher the surface the more likely it's will hold moisture and cause significant pitting. Also this machine was stored outdoors for a long unknown to me period of time. It was in a yard and was completely in the sun all day. That may have help with no pitting damage as it had a chance to dry out everyday. Yeah I know! Most people would look at this machine and say "No Way"! Sometimes it works out!
Inspiring. Came for the Rockwell Lathe restore, now going back through this. I bought the same Rockwell lathe and am right now working on a restore, Mine is in generally good shape but as far as I can tell nobody has ever lubricated it. The grease is black and hard and the ways seem to have molasses on them. But it's cleaning up nicely. I appreciate the work that goes into filming all this. I am just taking photos.
Good luck John. A lot of times grease and oil will just dry up and harden slightly if it in the right environment and things are not moved. Hey that helped preserve it!
Bonjour . Et bien nous voilà à la fin de cette magnifique restauration Toutes mes félicitations pour ce travail très propre . Georges Hello . Well here we are at the end of this magnificent restoration Congratulations on this very clean job. Georges
I am interested in the secondary control box and how you wired your components together. I would love more information on this if possible. I enjoy your series. I too have both a Rockwell Vertical and horizontal mill. Not much out there on Rockwell's and you've done a nice job of cataloging your work. Greatly appreciated.
Kendall it's pretty straight forward with the help of the VFD diagram that's in the manual. Based on that you can determine how many circuits/wires are needed and of course how many switches etc. There are other arrangements possible also in the manual. One thing to note that I don't think I mentioned is that the RPM display can't be power from the VFD as the pulse can interfere with the potentiometer signal. It maybe possible if isolated properly but I just used a separate wall wort type PS to not have to worry about it. Thanks!
Don’t tell the design engineers that it’s always the rear bearing that goes. We would expect them to beef up the rear bearing right, wrong, they’ll reduce the size of the front bearing 😂😂😂. I really enjoyed the series so a big thank you for making it. Cheers Stuart 🇦🇺
You got that mill performing probably better than new. Good job!!! Hope you didn't suffer any damage in hurricane Florence! I lost everything I owned in Harvey. But we are fighting back!!!
@@BurtonsAttic Thank you sir, we had homeowners insurance and the adjuster came by just to tell us they were denying our claim. They said the hurricane didn't do any damage, it was the flood waters that did the damage so they weren't liable. I had water over my roof. Lots of fun!!!
Guys who hammer the pulley on are the main cause of rear bearing failure. Next time support the end of the shaft on a socket so you are driving against the shaft not the bearing. BTW- one problem with VFD motors is the fan loses efficiency when running low rpm and the motor can build heat. An easy solution is to remove the motor fan and put a nice electric fan on the fan shroud that comes on whenever the motor is running, so you have full cooling at any RPM.
Thanks Old School, I've installed a lot of bearings and can't remember doing the same one twice. Actually the way that the shroud is made on both of these pushes a good volume of air at pretty much any usable RPM. The vertical motor gives off a nice breeze and so far I have seen them only get slightly warm!
Bearings on large volume production electric motors are selected strictly by cost. Saving a few pennies adds up when you are making 100K units. I have seen shielded bearings used where sealed bearings would have extended the bearing life two fold, just for the lower initial cost.
Good job on the restoration of the mill. Turned out great, the vfd should work well with the motors you have from what ive been able to find out. If it were mine id make a cover for over the horizontal spinde hole, and way cover on the ways on the housing behind table . Yup i like the mill good videos too. Watched them all at one setting. Thanks
Thanks for commenting Gary. I have since made way covers for the knee and the saddle ways. I think the only thing that I have done that I didn't document in video.
Thanks James, I'm really happy with the end result. It was like restoring a small car or rebuilding an engine; a lot of parts there! A VFD is so cost effective if your 2hp or under, it's hard to beat! The added functionality allowed me to replace all of the existing electrical that came on the machine and make it better than it was with less! Plus just being able to use the machine at home since I don't have three phase........ I have never worked with a phase convertor, I assume it is 208v split phase input and 230v three phase output like the VFD?
First I’m not an electrical guru, I’m using a static phase converter (Phase a Matic) basically you wire 220 single phase in and connect the 3 phase out. You loose about a 1/3 of hp because the motor is generating its own 3rd phase. In my case with a 3 hp mill, I don’t notice the power loss. Plus I didn’t have to do any rewiring of the machine. I did have a BIL who is an electrician help with the install
I did a little reading and figured out how a static phase converter works. Glad it works for you. A VFD appears to be a better solution if sized correctly and for small/medium home shop machines. You will have less power loss. A rotary converter is a different story for larger machines.
The reason I went static is the rewiring that is needed with a VFD, I did research it and price would have been the same. The part I wasn’t thrilled about was having to design and build a control system. Yes I loose about 1/3 of my hp but quite frankly I haven’t missed it yet. Now if my goal was to be in a business that I need full capacity of the mill I’d would have looked at other options
Yeah I didn't say it in the video but I spend a lot of time figuring out the VFD, switches, wiring, control boxes etc. I think I spend more time on that than most of the individual components of the mill. Electrical is easy for me so that wasn't really an issue just what components, size, locations etc. I'm sure that I'm losing some power as well. With the VFD being over rated for the application not sure exactly how much. So far I'm not missing it either and low RPM is great! It was a lot of effort but I'm really happy now and so far I'm in for about $500 including the initial purchase and getting it home. DRO and power feed will exceed that cost but in the end I will have a basically new machine with all the features I want!
I'm sure that is possible Rob. I just haven't dived that deep into it. The small looses from load that I get now are very minor. If you care to share how to do it well that would save me a ton of figuring time. Thanks for commenting.
Hi Burton, great videos and content. Just to chime-in on your rear bearing comment and why they are always smaller and subsequently fail. I am told that when you are making millions of motors per year, the motor manufacturers "skimp" a bit and install a smaller bearing on the rear to save some $$. Thus it always fails first. A bit frustrating from the consumer aspect, but does make sense. Love the content man!! Cheers,
Use my belt sander with a small piece of wood under like you had on your disk sander. It stops anomaly angles that would happen when using the metal base of a sander.
The rear bearing is smaller because the forces on it resulting from a sideways force on the shaft (like from a belt pulling on the pulley) are much smaller than on the front. Having said that, most electric motors I have used have identical rear and front bearings for ease of logistics.
The reason they put larger bearings in the drive end is because it has load and weight on that end on the other end theirs no load no stress so that why they put smaller bearing on the other end theirs ways to upgrades it to the larger bearing but it depends on the construction of the bell and you would have to change the size of both the inner and outer seal
Burton, you do good work. Regarding you question on motor bearings, failure may be due to heat, not size. The drive end bearing is nearest the fan and normally runs cooler. I saw another comment in here about accommodating shaft expansion from heat. Motors have 1 fixed bearing to hold the rotor in place and one expansion to prevent radial loading. This should be verified on assembly. The reason the bearings are different sizes is that the drive end can have larger radial loads like from belt drives. The blind end has a levered advantage. Vertical mounted motors can have higher axial loads depending on the coupling type and application. Vertical well pumps are an example. When axial loads exceed ball bearing capacities, double ball or tapered or some other design bearings are used. Bearings can be sealed or regreasable. I don't remember the exact number but the instructor in a Timken class said most bearings fail from over greasing. Regarding cost of bearings, you get what you pay for. NEMA sets the frame sizes and performance standards. I'm not sure but would guess they spec a minimum bearing load and life. Motor manufacturers can decide from there how to skin that cat.
Thanks for the well thought out comment Jonathan, good information. On these motors the fans are located on the opposite side from the drive but I hear you about heat being a cause of failure. Not sure how over greasing can cause bearing failure. All the loading bit makes sense. Thanks again for your input.
@@BurtonsAttic Yeah, I wasn't sure about fan location but it still might be heat. A small amount over a long period could be the difference of one bearing preceding the other. Over greasing causes causes heat. I was product mgr for a line of industrial grinders generically known as hammer hogs. These were 100-hp to 1200-hp direct coupled, horizontal shaft garbage disposals for wood waste used at sawmills, pulp mills and recycle facilities. They used taper mounted double row spherical bearings mounted in pillow block housings. They were installed with RTD temp sensors. A properly greased bearing would run 10f above ambient. If over greased they could run 150f over or even more. If the hot bearing was caught before the grease failed, the plug was removed and the hot, melted grease was drained. Over greasing is a common problem in mills on all kinds of equipment. This problem and the better grease available today is probably why sealed bearings are getting more popular. At lease in smaller sizes. That said, some applications where bearings are exposed to dirt and contaminants need to be at least intermittently purged with fresh grease.
@@BurtonsAttic I think its internal friction. Civil engineers have kind of co opted the term but the definition stands. In a perfect world there would only be a thin film of grease between the two otherwise contacting elements, roller and race. Anything more is just excess and in the way, although a small amount is needed as a reservoir to replace grease thrown out of the working area. It's different than oil which flows out and carries heat with it like in an internal combustion engine. If you filled a LS1 engine with enough oil, I would expect it would run at a higher temperature from churning while (creating a huge mess and) causing problems with the crank shaft and rods slapping big sloshes of oil. Like continuous belly flops. Maybe a slipping torque converter would be a better example.
I really enjoy your videos. I'm somewhat of an amateur photographer, so I can appreciate the time it takes to produce these videos. Thanks for putting in the time so others can enjoy. Also, I recently restored a 21-100 (non-horizontal version) and sure enough, that rear bearing is starting to be noisy after only a few hours of use. You show a close-up of the SKF 6203-2RSJ. Do you remember what the size of the other one is? I'd like to get both bearings ordered before I take the motor apart. Thanks again.
i swear N Carolina has more people doing youtube videos than California, i am subbed to at least 10 maybe 20 and funny enough most are somehow connected to engines,and building stuff
The bearing thing has a lot to due with the lack of sealing on the fan side and during the heating/cooling cycle it allows small amounts of moisture to do What moisture does best to the bearing Currently IMHP the best current lower cost motor is WEG and I buy them as a package with a Yaskswa 4X inverter and use them in a wash down environment as WEG and Yaskswa do a superior job of keeping out water
@@BurtonsAttic The bearing on the fan side fails premature thanks to small currents that runs throught the bearing, eating its way on the surface of the outer ring. There are two types of bearings you can buy to stop this, one is with a type where the outer ring is coated with some Aluminumoxide. In the bearingname they have VL0241 or VL2071. The other one is with ceramic balls in the bearing, thay are called HC5
These bearings are from company SKF in Schweinfurt, Germany, a 1907 high tech enterprise. They are now an international player in the precision components market.
Hi again from England From what I've seen... you've got several different brands of penetrating oils available in the USA... These include: Knock 'er loose PB blaster WD-40 But what I want to know...is when is someone going to make one called: ' GET HER OFF'..? You know it makes sense... DC injection braking is OK...but make sure any gear sets involved are up to it first... This milling machine had reached the crossroads... You got to it in time...
I have a 5 hp 3 phase tablesaw that I recently purchased used. I only have single phase. I am having trouble deciding if I should go the rotary phase converter method or VFD. Which would you recommend? I was looking at the TECO 7.5 horsepower. It sure is a less expensive method...
Just found your very, very neat work. Such neat presentation brings joy to my life. Questions: Is that a Morse vertical arbor? If so, what collets does that chuck use? Thank you
Great series, just subscribed. Have you thought about having two speed control pots, one fot each motor, wired through the motor change over switch? That way you might not have to keep adjusting speed when switching between the motors.
Alan no need to do that. The VFD has one input for the pot to the VFD PCB which is a function of the control circuit not the power circuit. The motor change over switch is on the power output of the VFD before the motors. The VFD doesn't "know" what motor it is powering. Hope that makes sense. Thanks for commenting.
Bearing problems in vertically mounted motors. One bearing in any electric motor is usually captured by a plate bolted or screwed to an end bell. The other must be free enough to move axially in the other end bell to allow the case and rotor to expand an contract at different rates during heat cycles. If the not-power-end bearing is stuck tightly in the case by assembly or by corrosion, axial loads may be imposed on the bearing that were never intended, When a motor is mounted vertically it is best to use an angle contact bearing on the rigidly captured bearing rather than what is usually a 63 series, deep groove part, typical on a horizontally mounted motor. This will nicely support the axial weight of the rotor, in most cases, forever.
Us vintage tube guitar amp junkies are always on the look-out for NOS (New Old Stock) vacuum tubes. They're much better quality than new manufacture, especially the ones the military used (MilSpec).
My comment was sparked by you getting older, unused bearings for the electric motor rebuilds. For many of us interested in salvaging/reusing old technology and machines, vintage parts are often better quality and last longer than newly manufactured stuff. Too many tend to feel new is better.
I Absolutely Love your channel so much! Ive been watching for 3 days straight as much as i can lol Your attention to detail is What makes you so enjoyable to watch! Thank you so much for sharing these wonderful Series. I think i smell a Shaper restoration or maybe a Maybe a Surface Grinder restoration? Haha Hey i can Dream cant i? Lol I was Wondering if the vfd also acts as a phase converter? Because i know you said the motors are 3 phase, are you running on single phase? Or do you have them running on 3? Thank you very much. Hope you have a Wonderful day. -David
Thanks David. My input is single phase 208v. Their are a lot of different drive configurations depending on application. It would take me all day to explain VFD theory of operation so here's a video for you to watch that is by ABB. I watched just a few minutes and it's a good video with good information. czcams.com/video/MqbNoVTKdcM/video.html
"it's pretty straight forward" man its all Greekvarkian but i did just binge watch over an hour of a guy restoring a machine i have no clue what it does
Awesome Video like always! Could I bump all of these specs up for a Cintimill with a 5HP motor? I've read that you should overcompensate on the VFD, so get a 7.5HP rated VFD?
VFD's start getting really expensive at 5hp. You need to look at the input voltage required (single or 3ph) and the amperage rating. Also the circuit you will use to run it.
Hi Burton, and Merry Christmas. Your Video at 21:22 shows you using the Quill to feed the Drill. I am wondering is/was there a reason that you did not use the much more powerful Acme Threaded Knee Feed?
Great video, Thanks! Really enjoyed the whole project. What is your opinion on grounding the rotor of VFD controlled motors? I have seen claims that using a VFD causes voltages to be induced in the rotor which will conduct to ground through the bearings if the rotor is left ungrounded, greatly reducing the their service life.
I have also read that but so far I have not experienced that issue. That may come from overdriving to motor. I don't know how you would be able to ground the rotor except though the bearings?
Burton's Attic the solutions I've seen use some sort of slip ring or carbon brush riding on the rotor to create a lower impedance path to ground than through the bearings. In a demonstration video it was shown with a multimeter or scope that there was some variable voltage between the rotor and ground without this rotor grounding. It sounds plausible to me that even relatively small voltages could generate currents through a bearing that may lead to damage because the contact patches between the balls and the races are so small, but because they were trying to sell their product I'm not quite sure I believe them.
so your going to run non inverter rated motors with a vfd. how long are they going to last.
Yup, not over driving them. What's the difference in running a 3ph motor on 3ph and running a 3ph motor on 3ph? Good question right? Over driving beyond 60 Hz is the problem. Been running my 1944 Dewalt RAS with a VFD for going on 5 years now almost daily with no problems. Oh and it runs for hours at a time sometimes, doesn't even get warm. Have you tried it? Did you run one a 120Hz and wonder why in failed? Did you let the smoke out? Just wondering if you actually did something or your just making up something to say just to leave a comment. Easy to go negative. Try positive instead. Maybe this will work? What are the limitations? Do I need to run at 600 Hz because the VFD is rated for it? What's the application? How much load is there? On and on.....Thanks for commenting.
Running 2 vfds but i have motors rated for them. and low hz also causes problems. I have a 10 hp leblond nc converting to cnc. debating on running the old 10 hp on an inverter or not.
Yes low Hz can also cause issues. In my experience the motors seem to strain more going high as opposed to low. I try to stay at 60Hz for sustained runs but do adjust up or down a bit somethings to dial in. No problems so far. The biggest issue I have read about or that comes up the most is bearing failure due to the carrier frequency. Watching out for that. 10 hp is a lot. The higher you go the more lose you will have. Just my thought, never dealt with more than 3 hp for a VFD. How are you running now? Hope your shop is back together!
are you referring to my video. lol nope its not going to happen. no money got screwed by insurance. I have a 30 x50 shop still standing. and its full. the lathe is not running yet doing the mods. different servos an such.
I have a Rockwell mill with what I think are bad bearings in the motor. Runs OK, but periodically makes "honk" sounds which I think is vibration. It's very random, and sometimes is constant. Might change the 110 motor out to a 3phase with a vfd.
Funny when you mentioned the number of holes in the VFD box. It's like saying; "I'll just quickly make a bracket" ...5 hours later still making it.
My head exploded with all that “VF& SFL” talk, it’s all French to me!! I’ve never been a electrician type person! When I start working on electrics the electrons start leaking all over the floor and I end up with a big puddle of them or me screaming because I’ve just electrocuted myself!!! So well done and good for you.
Polishing the end cap on the motor was overkill and I approve. Wonderful attention to detail.
Thanks Jim, pretty easy to do. Didn't want to paint them since I could make it shine! It will fade a little over time.......
@@BurtonsAttic perhaps a clear coat would be a compromise.... or borrow a can of hair spray :-)
Sealed bearings last as long as the grease remains in the race. Smaller bearings hold less grease, and dry up first. They put the big bearing in the front to handle the lateral load from the belt, but it also happens to hold more greasee allowing it to live longer.
In machines I service with a grease zerk on both ends, both bearings last forever (If maintained).
Thanks for you insight Bread!
At last someone who really does do a restoration. Not a quick wipe with an oily rag and a lick of paint. Your work reminds me of the Swiss guy (my mechanics) who works to a perfect restoration, not to a time limit. Well done.
Enjoyed watching the series. Beautiful work.
Wow, I stepped away for a minute (I had to feed my dog) and those motors turned brand new looking. Now I am going back to watch it again. amazing!
To bad it doesn't really happen that fast!
@@BurtonsAttic - you said it! Still, I love to watch and pretend. I am working on a Monarch 14WAA and a unique Southbend 16 at the same time. Sometimes I think OMG what have I done! You show me that there is a glorious end after just 16 or so 30 minute videos. You are a machine GAWD! Thankyou
@@flashpointrecycling One at a time!
@@BurtonsAttic - ya funny! I am currently editing another note to you pertaining to just one major problem related to working on more then one at a time. You´ll have it in a minute.
You did a great job with this project. I acquired a Jet JVM-840 in similar condition for free. The 1.5hp 3PH motor was dead so I decided to do a DC conversion since I was able to get motor and drive for under $90. Really enjoyed watching the restoration. Subscribed
Thanks! Sounds like a good deal Eddie. What is the power rating for the motor?
Enjoyed the rebuild videos on both the mill and the lathe. You have a lot of patience and are a very good craftsman. Thanks
Beautiful work!
Love your videos. Really great to see machines brought back to life!
You did a Amazing Job.Congrats
an excellent machinist using a great mechanical pencil..lol...not surprised...You are a meticulous and exacting worker..fantastic series..enjoyed it very much..and i can tell you surely enjoyed this too!
I do Rich, glad you did as well!
Your videos are extremely satisfying to watch. I just binge watched this milling machine restoration. Now I have go back into the attic. It's like an addiction.
love the vids. Makes me want to start over at 50 and become a machinist...just great.
Man! I just found this channel is Gold. Clear explanation and informative. I learned things after watching your video. Keep it up!!!👍
Amazing restoration
Modern VFDs with sensorless vector control are great, not as powerful as real gears, but close enough for daily use. This is why I like machines with a back gear and VFD, best of both worlds in my mind.
Keep it going!
Haven't used in much in backgear with the VFD yet. I have a NMTB30 ER40 tool holder for the horizontal now. I was thinking to do a video on it and the RPM sensor mount for that spindle.
What a great and simple use of a motor to make a grinder
Nice job. If you want to take it the rest of the way, like the last 5%, scrape the ways and cut proper oil groves into the ways. Then the machine will be super smooth, super rigid, will give great finishes and last forever. And scraping is a fun skill to learn. Lots of info on CZcams. I always liked the Rockwell mill. Way better than a ru fong milldrill.
EXCELLENT VIDEO - THANK YOU!
I just found your channel (Part 1 of your mill restoration series was in my recommended list,) and I gotta say, you really brought that mill back from the dead! Subbed and shared for sure! Now that I'm finished with the mill series, I'm of to go binge watch the rest of your channel. Thanks for doing what you do! Hope to see a lot more in the future!
Thanks Mark!
You do great work. Really appreciate the time you have put into this series!
Thanks Dave glad that you enjoyed it!
The motors look brand new. You must be happy with it. Great tool to have in the shop.
Wonderful Job ! What a Deal even though a lot of work sure is nice having a R-8 spindle and a Horizontal as well ! Thank You for the Great video's !
Excellent, not only in terms of project, but in presentation. Thank you. Subscribed!
Thanks Dave, glad you enjoyed it!
Very good work throughout beginning to finish, thank you for sharing from SA
Thanks for the support Hussain!
Thank you I very much enjoy your videos thanks again
While I have absolutely NO idea of anything you described about the VFD, I love this project
Hey that's what's great about CZcams! You saw/learned something new! Like your screen name!
Nice work
I love how you made the case to swivel.
Very informative and beautifuly produce - thanks.Pete
I'm going now back, rewatch the whole series and put the like button on all vids! I'm sorry your vids don't have more likes bc this series on mill repair is THE BEST! (Damn yt algorithm) your paint job is fantastic, your explanations to point, your knowledge of vfd is of a professional. Your skills and patience to do this, are huge! I'm 3 years late but to answer your last question: yes please talk on forever about how old machines controllers can be replaced with vfd.
I wish ToT could help you grow your channel.
We'll done series. Subscribed. I knew when I saw the seal driving kit come out, this is no amateur.
After watching this series Im thinking Burton has the coolest toys in his attic..... really enjoyed watching
Awesome Rob Thanks!
Your work is so professional
Glad i came a cross to this Chanel
Thanks for sharing
Thanks Al! Always try to do the best I can!
That is nice work looking to have more as you do other projects.
Very clean design and build. Well done.
Thanks Dan!
Great video
Just stumbled onto this. Really enjoyed it
Thanks Peter!
Well done sir! This restoration series was nothing shy of addictive. Watched all 6 installments in a single sitting. I appreciate that you're focused on function - but with your attention to detail, the machine ends up looking gorgeous as well. Should bring you many years of reliable service. Please keep up the great work and keep the videos coming!
Thanks! You watched "The Milling Machine Movie" all 1 1/2 hours worth!
@@BurtonsAttic Haven't been to a movie theatre in forever - but this was well worth the time! :)
Envy springs to mind...
Terrific job on the restoration of that mill, enjoyed the entire series~ Richard
Thanks Richard!
EXCELLENT work and video !!!!!
Thanks Terry!
Great job on the motors and the controls. I restored a 5 hp motor on a DeWalt GE from 1942, when I opened it up the windings were like it just came from the factory after I blew out all the sawdust.
New bearings and it runs smooth as silk.
Awesome, thanks for sharing! Old American 3ph induction motors are so durable! My saw is a GP and it's WW2 era as well!
Wow I really enjoyed this entire project. When I first saw the mill I thought it's too far gone to bring it back. Just great work and dedication all around, I can't believe you manged to get it looking and working like a new machine. Great editing and narration too. I hope a lot more people start watching this! I'd be interested to see some measurements in the future as to what kind of precision it's still capable of, considering the rust had been nibbling away at it.
Hey thanks for the kind works Phil! Believe it or not all of the precision surfaces (with the exception of the table top) where well protected and cleaned up with no pitting! The table has some very minor pitting, more like etching at the far ends. So no big deal as you would very rarely need to use the very end of the table. The 2 U shaped brackets that I made to mount the control box are accurate to .001"/.025mm with no DRO! With a DRO I'm sure that .0005" is possible and I do plan to put one on it at some point in the future. Glad you enjoyed it!
@@BurtonsAttic Good to know, this whole project makes me look at old rusted up machines like that in a totally different light. I guess the rust doesn't penetrate as deep into the alloys they use for these machines and it looks much worse than it is. Looking forward to seeing the mill in action some more
@@PhilVandelay it's all cast iron. One observation that I have made over time working with rusty stuff is that the smoother the surface is to begin with it doesn't pit as bad if at all. Once the rust forms it's kind of like a protective barrier. The rougher the surface the more likely it's will hold moisture and cause significant pitting. Also this machine was stored outdoors for a long unknown to me period of time. It was in a yard and was completely in the sun all day. That may have help with no pitting damage as it had a chance to dry out everyday. Yeah I know! Most people would look at this machine and say "No Way"! Sometimes it works out!
New old stock bearings are always a win. Have been selling them for years and after a few hundred sold none came back.
Not to mention the cost!
Awesome work. I am pretty happy I just found your channel. Keep up the good work.
Awesome video ! Loved the display panel and workmanship, just subscribed.
Thanks Robin, that was a fun part to figure out. I like the way it turned out also!
greetings from germany, great work
Inspiring. Came for the Rockwell Lathe restore, now going back through this. I bought the same Rockwell lathe and am right now working on a restore, Mine is in generally good shape but as far as I can tell nobody has ever lubricated it. The grease is black and hard and the ways seem to have molasses on them. But it's cleaning up nicely.
I appreciate the work that goes into filming all this. I am just taking photos.
Good luck John. A lot of times grease and oil will just dry up and harden slightly if it in the right environment and things are not moved. Hey that helped preserve it!
Send me a photo when your done if you like.
Nice job!
Steve
Thanks Steve!
Awesome video! Love the part on parameters.
Thanks Glen!
great job! very handy mill i like it
Great content !!!! Tnx for sharing that .
🎥 Amazing 🎬 !
_ Congratulations! 👍 🇧🇷
Bonjour .
Et bien nous voilà à la fin de cette magnifique restauration
Toutes mes félicitations pour ce travail très propre .
Georges
Hello .
Well here we are at the end of this magnificent restoration
Congratulations on this very clean job.
Georges
merci monsieur!
Very nice
I am interested in the secondary control box and how you wired your components together. I would love more information on this if possible. I enjoy your series. I too have both a Rockwell Vertical and horizontal mill. Not much out there on Rockwell's and you've done a nice job of cataloging your work. Greatly appreciated.
Kendall it's pretty straight forward with the help of the VFD diagram that's in the manual. Based on that you can determine how many circuits/wires are needed and of course how many switches etc. There are other arrangements possible also in the manual. One thing to note that I don't think I mentioned is that the RPM display can't be power from the VFD as the pulse can interfere with the potentiometer signal. It maybe possible if isolated properly but I just used a separate wall wort type PS to not have to worry about it. Thanks!
super de belle job cool
Don’t tell the design engineers that it’s always the rear bearing that goes. We would expect them to beef up the rear bearing right, wrong, they’ll reduce the size of the front bearing 😂😂😂. I really enjoyed the series so a big thank you for making it. Cheers Stuart 🇦🇺
Thanks Scrounga
It's the bean counters making the decision.
Greetings from the 35th parallel
You got that mill performing probably better than new. Good job!!! Hope you didn't suffer any damage in hurricane Florence! I lost everything I owned in Harvey. But we are fighting back!!!
Sorry to hear that you suffered so much. We only lost a few tree limbs.......I hope your insurance is taking care of it. Take care Danny.
@@BurtonsAttic Thank you sir, we had homeowners insurance and the adjuster came by just to tell us they were denying our claim. They said the hurricane didn't do any damage, it was the flood waters that did the damage so they weren't liable. I had water over my roof. Lots of fun!!!
Awesome ;)
Thanks man!
Guys who hammer the pulley on are the main cause of rear bearing failure. Next time support the end of the shaft on a socket so you are driving against the shaft not the bearing. BTW- one problem with VFD motors is the fan loses efficiency when running low rpm and the motor can build heat. An easy solution is to remove the motor fan and put a nice electric fan on the fan shroud that comes on whenever the motor is running, so you have full cooling at any RPM.
Thanks Old School, I've installed a lot of bearings and can't remember doing the same one twice. Actually the way that the shroud is made on both of these pushes a good volume of air at pretty much any usable RPM. The vertical motor gives off a nice breeze and so far I have seen them only get slightly warm!
Bearings on large volume production electric motors are selected strictly by cost. Saving a few pennies adds up when you are making 100K units. I have seen shielded bearings used where sealed bearings would have extended the bearing life two fold, just for the lower initial cost.
I always build a back plate on my personal machine motors and design it with a big back bearings
Parabens !! Excelente trabalho nesta maquina nao parece ser a mesma . My name is marcio i am from brazil .
Obrigado Marcio!
Good job on the restoration of the mill. Turned out great, the vfd should work well with the motors you have from what ive been able to find out. If it were mine id make a cover for over the horizontal spinde hole, and way cover on the ways on the housing behind table . Yup i like the mill good videos too. Watched them all at one setting. Thanks
Thanks for commenting Gary. I have since made way covers for the knee and the saddle ways. I think the only thing that I have done that I didn't document in video.
Like the set up, on my Lagun I went with a static phase converter. I’ve been well pleased
Thanks James, I'm really happy with the end result. It was like restoring a small car or rebuilding an engine; a lot of parts there! A VFD is so cost effective if your 2hp or under, it's hard to beat! The added functionality allowed me to replace all of the existing electrical that came on the machine and make it better than it was with less! Plus just being able to use the machine at home since I don't have three phase........ I have never worked with a phase convertor, I assume it is 208v split phase input and 230v three phase output like the VFD?
First I’m not an electrical guru, I’m using a static phase converter (Phase a Matic) basically you wire 220 single phase in and connect the 3 phase out. You loose about a 1/3 of hp because the motor is generating its own 3rd phase. In my case with a 3 hp mill, I don’t notice the power loss. Plus I didn’t have to do any rewiring of the machine. I did have a BIL who is an electrician help with the install
I did a little reading and figured out how a static phase converter works. Glad it works for you. A VFD appears to be a better solution if sized correctly and for small/medium home shop machines. You will have less power loss. A rotary converter is a different story for larger machines.
The reason I went static is the rewiring that is needed with a VFD, I did research it and price would have been the same. The part I wasn’t thrilled about was having to design and build a control system. Yes I loose about 1/3 of my hp but quite frankly I haven’t missed it yet. Now if my goal was to be in a business that I need full capacity of the mill I’d would have looked at other options
Yeah I didn't say it in the video but I spend a lot of time figuring out the VFD, switches, wiring, control boxes etc. I think I spend more time on that than most of the individual components of the mill. Electrical is easy for me so that wasn't really an issue just what components, size, locations etc. I'm sure that I'm losing some power as well. With the VFD being over rated for the application not sure exactly how much. So far I'm not missing it either and low RPM is great! It was a lot of effort but I'm really happy now and so far I'm in for about $500 including the initial purchase and getting it home. DRO and power feed will exceed that cost but in the end I will have a basically new machine with all the features I want!
You could reference your speed sensor with the VFD to get a constant speed while under load.
I'm sure that is possible Rob. I just haven't dived that deep into it. The small looses from load that I get now are very minor. If you care to share how to do it well that would save me a ton of figuring time. Thanks for commenting.
Hi Burton, great videos and content. Just to chime-in on your rear bearing comment and why they are always smaller and subsequently fail. I am told that when you are making millions of motors per year, the motor manufacturers "skimp" a bit and install a smaller bearing on the rear to save some $$. Thus it always fails first. A bit frustrating from the consumer aspect, but does make sense.
Love the content man!! Cheers,
Amazing work. You do know your stuff, despite all of the trolls rhetoric.
Use my belt sander with a small piece of wood under like you had on your disk sander. It stops anomaly angles that would happen when using the metal base of a sander.
your good work earnt a subscription
I meant a subscriber!
Thanks Dan!
The rear bearing is smaller because the forces on it resulting from a sideways force on the shaft (like from a belt pulling on the pulley) are much smaller than on the front. Having said that, most electric motors I have used have identical rear and front bearings for ease of logistics.
That makes sense and is logical, but they still wear out faster. Just large enough but not large enough to last. Thanks for your input Dimitar!
The reason they put larger bearings in the drive end is because it has load and weight on that end on the other end theirs no load no stress so that why they put smaller bearing on the other end theirs ways to upgrades it to the larger bearing but it depends on the construction of the bell and you would have to change the size of both the inner and outer seal
Burton, you do good work. Regarding you question on motor bearings, failure may be due to heat, not size. The drive end bearing is nearest the fan and normally runs cooler. I saw another comment in here about accommodating shaft expansion from heat. Motors have 1 fixed bearing to hold the rotor in place and one expansion to prevent radial loading. This should be verified on assembly. The reason the bearings are different sizes is that the drive end can have larger radial loads like from belt drives. The blind end has a levered advantage. Vertical mounted motors can have higher axial loads depending on the coupling type and application. Vertical well pumps are an example. When axial loads exceed ball bearing capacities, double ball or tapered or some other design bearings are used. Bearings can be sealed or regreasable. I don't remember the exact number but the instructor in a Timken class said most bearings fail from over greasing. Regarding cost of bearings, you get what you pay for. NEMA sets the frame sizes and performance standards. I'm not sure but would guess they spec a minimum bearing load and life. Motor manufacturers can decide from there how to skin that cat.
Thanks for the well thought out comment Jonathan, good information. On these motors the fans are located on the opposite side from the drive but I hear you about heat being a cause of failure. Not sure how over greasing can cause bearing failure. All the loading bit makes sense. Thanks again for your input.
@@BurtonsAttic Yeah, I wasn't sure about fan location but it still might be heat. A small amount over a long period could be the difference of one bearing preceding the other. Over greasing causes causes heat. I was product mgr for a line of industrial grinders generically known as hammer hogs. These were 100-hp to 1200-hp direct coupled, horizontal shaft garbage disposals for wood waste used at sawmills, pulp mills and recycle facilities. They used taper mounted double row spherical bearings mounted in pillow block housings. They were installed with RTD temp sensors. A properly greased bearing would run 10f above ambient. If over greased they could run 150f over or even more. If the hot bearing was caught before the grease failed, the plug was removed and the hot, melted grease was drained. Over greasing is a common problem in mills on all kinds of equipment. This problem and the better grease available today is probably why sealed bearings are getting more popular. At lease in smaller sizes. That said, some applications where bearings are exposed to dirt and contaminants need to be at least intermittently purged with fresh grease.
@@jonathansmith6390 Wow that's crazy! Thanks for the great information. I'm guessing the excess grease prevents heat dissipation?
@@BurtonsAttic I think its internal friction. Civil engineers have kind of co opted the term but the definition stands. In a perfect world there would only be a thin film of grease between the two otherwise contacting elements, roller and race. Anything more is just excess and in the way, although a small amount is needed as a reservoir to replace grease thrown out of the working area. It's different than oil which flows out and carries heat with it like in an internal combustion engine. If you filled a LS1 engine with enough oil, I would expect it would run at a higher temperature from churning while (creating a huge mess and) causing problems with the crank shaft and rods slapping big sloshes of oil. Like continuous belly flops. Maybe a slipping torque converter would be a better example.
I really enjoy your videos. I'm somewhat of an amateur photographer, so I can appreciate the time it takes to produce these videos. Thanks for putting in the time so others can enjoy. Also, I recently restored a 21-100 (non-horizontal version) and sure enough, that rear bearing is starting to be noisy after only a few hours of use. You show a close-up of the SKF 6203-2RSJ. Do you remember what the size of the other one is? I'd like to get both bearings ordered before I take the motor apart. Thanks again.
I think it's 6304 but I would verify that if I where you. Did you make the snow man?
@@BurtonsAttic Ok. Thanks. The snowman was just a fun holiday marketing thing we did. The footage wasn't great, but the part turned out nice.
i swear N Carolina has more people doing youtube videos than California, i am subbed to at least 10 maybe 20 and funny enough most are somehow connected to engines,and building stuff
you should do a colab project with AvE!
The bearing thing has a lot to due with the lack of sealing on the fan side and during the heating/cooling cycle it allows small amounts of moisture to do What moisture does best to the bearing
Currently IMHP the best current lower cost motor is WEG and I buy them as a package with a Yaskswa 4X inverter and use them in a wash down environment as WEG and Yaskswa do a superior job of keeping out water
Thanks for the comment and information Tom!
@@BurtonsAttic The bearing on the fan side fails premature thanks to small currents that runs throught the bearing, eating its way on the surface of the outer ring. There are two types of bearings you can buy to stop this, one is with a type where the outer ring is coated with some Aluminumoxide. In the bearingname they have VL0241 or VL2071. The other one is with ceramic balls in the bearing, thay are called HC5
@@henrikpersson8695 Thanks Henrik, I will check that out!
These bearings are from company SKF in Schweinfurt, Germany, a 1907 high tech enterprise. They are now an international player in the precision components market.
Hi again from England
From what I've seen...
you've got several different brands of penetrating oils available in the USA...
These include:
Knock 'er loose
PB blaster
WD-40
But what I want to know...is when is someone going to make one called:
' GET HER OFF'..?
You know it makes sense...
DC injection braking is OK...but make sure any gear sets involved are up to it first...
This milling machine had reached the crossroads...
You got to it in time...
I have a 5 hp 3 phase tablesaw that I recently purchased used. I only have single phase. I am having trouble deciding if I should go the rotary phase converter method or VFD. Which would you recommend? I was looking at the TECO 7.5 horsepower. It sure is a less expensive method...
I was wondering where you sourced your enclosure switches, rpm meter and wiring and if you could provide a wiring diagram for your build.
Just found your very, very neat work. Such neat presentation brings joy to my life.
Questions: Is that a Morse vertical arbor? If so, what collets does that chuck use?
Thank you
Thx Hugo, nice ride you have! The vertical spindle is R8, like a Bridgeport. The collet holder seen at 13:05 is R8 to DA180.
Great series, just subscribed.
Have you thought about having two speed control pots, one fot each motor, wired through the motor change over switch? That way you might not have to keep adjusting speed when switching between the motors.
Alan no need to do that. The VFD has one input for the pot to the VFD PCB which is a function of the control circuit not the power circuit. The motor change over switch is on the power output of the VFD before the motors. The VFD doesn't "know" what motor it is powering. Hope that makes sense. Thanks for commenting.
Loved the restoration of this mill, what size collets / end mills and cutters can you use on it ?
Vert is R8 and Horz NMTB30
The load on pulley is in cantilever form so backside bearing gets damaged
Bearing problems in vertically mounted motors.
One bearing in any electric motor is usually captured by a plate bolted or screwed to an end bell. The other must be free enough to move axially in the other end bell to allow the case and rotor to expand an contract at different rates during heat cycles. If the not-power-end bearing is stuck tightly in the case by assembly or by corrosion, axial loads may be imposed on the bearing that were never intended,
When a motor is mounted vertically it is best to use an angle contact bearing on the rigidly captured bearing rather than what is usually a 63 series, deep groove part, typical on a horizontally mounted motor. This will nicely support the axial weight of the rotor, in most cases, forever.
Thanks for the input John.
Us vintage tube guitar amp junkies are always on the look-out for NOS (New Old Stock) vacuum tubes. They're much better quality than new manufacture, especially the ones the military used (MilSpec).
I don't have any but I'll let you know if I come across some!
My comment was sparked by you getting older, unused bearings for the electric motor rebuilds. For many of us interested in salvaging/reusing old technology and machines, vintage parts are often better quality and last longer than newly manufactured stuff. Too many tend to feel new is better.
I hear ya, if I purchased the latest new bearings for sure they would be of a lower quality and cost more!
I Absolutely Love your channel so much! Ive been watching for 3 days straight as much as i can lol Your attention to detail is What makes you so enjoyable to watch! Thank you so much for sharing these wonderful Series. I think i smell a Shaper restoration or maybe a Maybe a Surface Grinder restoration? Haha Hey i can Dream cant i? Lol I was Wondering if the vfd also acts as a phase converter? Because i know you said the motors are 3 phase, are you running on single phase? Or do you have them running on 3? Thank you very much. Hope you have a Wonderful day. -David
Thanks David. My input is single phase 208v. Their are a lot of different drive configurations depending on application. It would take me all day to explain VFD theory of operation so here's a video for you to watch that is by ABB. I watched just a few minutes and it's a good video with good information. czcams.com/video/MqbNoVTKdcM/video.html
"it's pretty straight forward" man its all Greekvarkian but i did just binge watch over an hour of a guy restoring a machine i have no clue what it does
My Head Exploded LOL
Hope your recovering OK from that! Thanks!
Awesome Video like always! Could I bump all of these specs up for a Cintimill with a 5HP motor? I've read that you should overcompensate on the VFD, so get a 7.5HP rated VFD?
VFD's start getting really expensive at 5hp. You need to look at the input voltage required (single or 3ph) and the amperage rating. Also the circuit you will use to run it.
Hi Burton, and Merry Christmas. Your Video at 21:22 shows you using the Quill to feed the Drill. I am wondering is/was there
a reason that you did not use the much more powerful Acme Threaded Knee Feed?
I do use the knee sometimes for drilling. I found that I have more control and stay on center better using the quill.
Great video, Thanks! Really enjoyed the whole project. What is your opinion on grounding the rotor of VFD controlled motors? I have seen claims that using a VFD causes voltages to be induced in the rotor which will conduct to ground through the bearings if the rotor is left ungrounded, greatly reducing the their service life.
I have also read that but so far I have not experienced that issue. That may come from overdriving to motor. I don't know how you would be able to ground the rotor except though the bearings?
Burton's Attic the solutions I've seen use some sort of slip ring or carbon brush riding on the rotor to create a lower impedance path to ground than through the bearings. In a demonstration video it was shown with a multimeter or scope that there was some variable voltage between the rotor and ground without this rotor grounding. It sounds plausible to me that even relatively small voltages could generate currents through a bearing that may lead to damage because the contact patches between the balls and the races are so small, but because they were trying to sell their product I'm not quite sure I believe them.
Great restore! Could you please tell me what the black pivoting grinder/sander/? is? I've seen it used throughout the project, very cool!
Steve it is a Dewalt GP radial arm saw from the 1940's. Thanks!
@@BurtonsAttic Thank you, I appreciate it. What a great way to use it!