Why are Pozidriv screws better than Phillips?
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- čas přidán 21. 01. 2020
- In the next video I'm going to be showing you all of the common screws I carry with me on pretty much all jobs. Before doing that I thought we best have a quick chat about screw drive types. Whether you prefer Phillips, PoziDriv, Robertson or for some reason Hex, it's a very personal choice. I'll show you what I prefer and explain why there's really only two drive types I would consider in the UK. Lots of love to all Canadian viewers - I love Canada... but Robertson screws just aren't really used over here. Let me know in the comments your preferred screw drive type!
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#Screws #DIY #Woodworking - Jak na to + styl
in my day, we did not have any slots or crosses in our screws. We drove them in with our finger and thumbtips, just grip and twist, while walking FIFTEEN MILES in THE SNOW.
Doesn't this have the side-effect of you being 15 miles from the thing you were working on? ;)
While fighting off the VELOCIRAPTORS? I remember that...
UPHILL BOTH WAYS!
Thumb and forefinger ? Posh that , we just hammered them in with our forehead Oi Oi
Being a DIYer I’ve just discovered TX (Torx) screws. They’re the best thing I’ve used in years. Just put in 500 of them on a project and none of them caused me any issues and still on the original TX bit, supplied with the screws. I’ll never go back to Philips if I can avoid it. The other advantage was that you can screw, then re screw and the head is still in perfect condition.
I think it all goes down to that taper, I think I saw somewhere the point was to prevent over torquing, which with modern drill and drivers that have a clutch should never be an issue. Not to mention the fact I almost always end up using the wrong size driver just because I can
I'm sometimes tinkering with old applicances that have obviously been designed for low cost, and I have ruined quite a few Philips screws while unscrewing them because they were made of rather soft (and presumably cheap) steel. Combine that with a bit of accidential cam out, and you have a small area of contact where the screwdriver just reams out the screw.
That never happened with Torx. I was initially skeptical of buying yet another set of screwdrivers (as if we did not have enough systems yet), but I've come to like them.
@@rabiatorthegreat6163 sometimes I find flat head to be easier on those cheap Philips.
@@rabiatorthegreat6163 You have to ensure that you're using the exact fitting PH driver for Philips screws, otherwise they're getting chewed up. The right size is generally the absolute largest size that will fit in at all, and have the least amount of wiggle. It sometimes looks ridiculous because the driver is sometimes almost bigger than the screwhead, so the proper driver selection can sometimes turn out a little counter intuitive.
Another thing to worry about is JIS screws which will extra easily strip with a Philips driver. That's Japanese and sometimes Korean electronics. Maaaybe Hong Kong from way back. Not seen on mainland China products so far. They are supposed to have an extra marking of a dot but it's often times not there or seemingly not there, we're dealing with old garbage right.
I also resent the video for saying that you can drive PZ screws with a Philips driver, or that you only need PZ2 - using the wrong driver family or wrong size leads to regrettable outcomes. Well JIS drivers are more or less good on Philips screws but not the other way around.
That being said if you have the opportunity to leave Philips behind for good, i fully support taking that opportunity and i do like Torx. Except Torx is so good at torque transfer that you can sometimes shear the whole screw head off. And then what do you do? You can't use a screw extractor. New fear unlocked?
@@fulconandroadcone9488 "Over torquing protection" phrase was put out to mask the fact that a few cam outs on a small Phillips head is all it takes to make its screw almost impossible to undo (without extracting). Same with small hexes, though instead they just look like damn circles after that.
I enjoyed this vid and your walk-through the drive type evolution. I’m a bit of a patent nerd and hardware nerd and have read the patents for all these drive types and have to point out that the advantage of the Pozidriv (TM) isn’t four additional point of contact, but rather that fact that the four blade segments have straight faces rather than tapered faces like those seen on the Phillips. This was done to prevent cam-out. The four “tick marks” on the head of the screw are there from the production of the slot, which is done with two dies; one that forges what looks like a Phillips slot, and a second that strikes between these points to close the slots, marking their faces parallel. The additional points on the driver are there for identification only as they don’t even make contact with the screw. See the taper in the Phillips at 4:13 and notice the straight faces on the Pozi at 6:00. Oh, and the Allen “Hex” drive screw was patented in 1910. There’s a fascinating story involving Henry Ford, P.L. Robertson and Willian Allen, but that’s for another video. Hardware nerd out! Scott
thx, finnaly i understand why its so much better. I was always wondering, why the PZ is so much better, even thought the small cross doesnt even touch the screw
Oh very sharp and finally a good explanation. I was certain that it had something to do with angle selection but i never understood what angles were the crucial ones. And yeah i have a hilarious set of PZ bits which are made wrong and where the additional little cosmetic protrusins are rotated a little, they're machined with an error... work just the same as any normal ones since these little ones don't really even touch down.
The additional Points on the driver are also a result of how the driver is beeing manufactured
I’ve never understood the difference between Philips and pozi till this vid. Thx
Yes you’re right 🧑I’m also confused until I buy Dewalt screws bites set and see the difference by myself
@Dan Dearinger no one cares and it doesn't work
The most important difference between PH and PZ is that PH has a built-in limit for the torque you can apply to the screw due to the slightly conical shape of the flanges. This was intentional so the driver will slip before overtorqing the thread. But since we use electrical screwdrivers nowadays people always tried to overcome the slipping by applying more pressure until the slip anyway and ruin the head of the screw.
PZ has straigt flanges on the main X so it doesnt slip but makes a torque-limiter in the screwdriver mandatory.
Neither of them should be used anymore.
You can find tapered / self-centering torx bits, and since I discovered them they are my preferred choice bits as most wood screws easily available here in Sweden seem to be either t20 or t25.
The amount of childlike joy I feel every time I put a torx screw on the bit in the impact driver and it stays there even if I wiggle it around is absolutely priceless.
The torx wobble problem can be countered with wedge fit bits. They are slightly tapered and lock onto the screw solidly. They will stay dead straight and drive right in with no wobble. Available from Wera.
For example if you use the brand spaxx you can use the driver bit T20 from 3.5x15 way up to 5x100mm and if you use the original spaxx bit the screw doesn't wobble at all
But they are pretty expensive
@@a100independent6 Nice to know thanks. I loved the spax wirox for decking, no messing, no hassle.
I started work in the late 50s, with slotted nettlefold screws, a bradal and wood handle screwdriver, then came the phillips, then pozi, and the cordless driver revolution and screws that are now engineering masterpieces
I'm a mechanical engineer so we have a large overlap in our trades with the types of fastener heads used, even if our thread standards are completely different. It's absolutely lovely to see someone with actual hands on experience explaining these technologies so clearly for Joe Public.
Last year I finally bought a box of torx head screws, and my god I have never been so happy. instead of having to press against the screw with all my weight, torx head screws just pull themselvs in with little to no pressure once started
Been using Torx myself for nearly 10 years after Steve Ramsey raved about them. Surprised more of our friends across the pond haven't bought into the idea more in light of that. Not once in all those years has one stripped, even when using an impact, which I do for 99.9% of driving. Great video again Andy.
I think you will find that POZIDRIV bits are not tapered hence reducing “cam out”, how you got through the whole video without mentioning “cam out”i cannot imagine! Well done.
I always thought THIS was the main reason for using POSIDRIV, nothing to do with extra points of contact. The torque applied at the centre must be tiny compared to that at the ends of the four slots.
Something as basic as using the right screws for a specific job is so important. I tear my hair (what bit I have) when I have to remove radiators when the brackets are screwed with slotted screws and are long. Havoc for my wrists!! Good video so look forward to more
Thank you for explaining so well with diagrams. I've watched many videos but your's explained it the most clearly.
Best explanation on screws i met so far on YT...for a couple of years! Congrats!
My great uncle used square (Roberston) for his wood projects. Needless to say after we showed him Torx...he converted. We still use phillips for drywall and wood screws if Torx isn't available. However it's Torx 99% of the time.
Why is it "needless to say"? I prefer robbies to torx.
Mr Robertson's invention beats Torx or Pozi......all day long.
Very good information Gosforth. Really hits all important points for sure. Spoken from the other side of the pond too.
In Switzerland, in my experience, tradesmen only use Torx screws. Having been nosey and looked at what they carried, no Posidrivs were to be seen, but the full range of Torx were there.
Used a lot by trades over here too - depends on the job. I see a lot of Torx in window fitting especially. Pozi are still generally more common though - just about every kitchen for a start. 😀👍
Gosforth Handyman there is of course the Swiss “if it’s more expensive, it must be better...”
I'm impressed with how good a video this was. (I expected it to be another boring suggestion.) Not only do you have the knowledge of screws, but you put together a simple well put video.
Awesome information on screws, thank you so much for all your vids, I am new to your channel and at 67 years of age I am just beginning to enjoy retirement and pottering with woodwork again.
Brilliant intro' to screw types and drive selection. Thanks for sharing!
best presentation of the differences that I have come across, thankyou! was glad you also mentioned robertson as was curious about that too but haven't come across them in Australia much so far
This is a great well demonstrated and researched video. Very useful. Thanks.
I'm caming out! I want the world to know :)
Thank you. This helped clarify the different types of screw heads. Very clear.
Really useful info Andy. Thank you for taking the time to prepare an informative video. 👍🏻
No worries Allan! 👍👊
Great video. Best explanation and graphics. Well done 👏
One of the best videos for DIYers ever! Superb!
Finally, someone has just come out with it instead of pushing fancy screws on people.
Thank u sir for explaining this complex concept of screw drive design
Thanks for your educative well explained video. I love to learn every day something new 👍
Nice vid. I am a big fan of the Torx screw i'm in the process of totally changing over to Torx.
This is a well done informative piece. Thank you!
I work as a landscaper and we usually need really big screws. If we would use pozi we would break/wearout way more bits so its torx for us
I just found your channel due to a comment you left on another maker's vid, and your content is outstanding. It's a tough gig, but I commend your wisdom and your communication style. Keep doing what you're doing!
Thank you so much and welcome to the channel! 👍👊
A revelation. Use the Robertson square driver on the Posidrive screw. Works better than anything out there. Bit finds its seat easily, stays in, and never cams out. Try it. You'll like it.
Thanks for the history lesson - very informative :)
not quite sure how i ended up here but learnt a lesson on screws that will help ........thanks
Weren’t Phillips heads also invented to limit torque during an era when power tools could not sense over-torque without a mechanical limitation?
I read that about Phillips/Pozi, but it's gonna tear up the screw heads and the bit after driving a few, so why use it with modern devices?
Personally I've had issues recently with removing screws with torn up Pozi heads that I wished were Torx.
This a cross-over I did NOT expect.
Sorry for the slight delay! Missed this one. I've heard of the torque limiting from a few sources but can't find anything about this in the original patent. Needs further investigation... 🤔😁👍
It is a fact that the Phillips head causes the driver to cam out easier than Pozidriv. This is because the flutes are tapered. It also means that Phillips screws need more downwards force on the driver to not cam out early.
Now there's a lot of talk about Phillips being bad, and while there are truths there's also ways to avoid or minimize the problems. First thing I think of is the driver size. Sure a PH2 may fit a lot of screw sizes but it's not right for all of them. You should make sure you have drivers sized all the way from PH00 to PH3. Any larger than that is special and you will most probably not encounter them. It's the same for Pozidriv you need several sizes to have the right driver for the screws. Using the Phillips driver I prefer I can hold the screw with the driver attached horizontal and the driver will not fall out. And yes I'm only holding the screw. I can tilt it even further and the driver should stay in place until about a negative 45 degrees. This is decent screws made in China, but with Chinese screws quality really wary. Some are good while others are really worthless.
Next is something I was told by an engineer. Once the driver has cam out three times the driver should be thrown away and replaced. This can get costly with screwdrivers but actually works. With driver bits being sp cheap throw them away after the first cam out. The reason is that not only does cam out damage the screwhead but it also wears down the driver. My preferred drivers are quite expensive and the metal is very strong. The driver head on them also have a coating of industrial diamond dust which bites into the screws and keep them in place. There is also paste with diamond dust that can be used to coat the drivers, but I've never used that. I'm sure there are driver bits that are just as well made but I've never encountered any. Instead the bits are cheap enough I have no problem throwing them away when they start to wear.
In short, use the right size driver and don't use worn down drivers.
I'd go as far as saying that these things are important for all kinds of screwheads. Quality drivers and the correct size makes a huge difference.
Now there is one more screw head to keep in mind and that's JIS. This looks a lot like Phillips screws but they are actually a Japanese standard and not quite compatible with Phillips head drivers. One way to recognize a JIS it to look for a single dot punched between two of the lobes. If it's there it's a JIS screw. Now a JIS driver will fit a Phillips screw head decently, but a Phillips driver won't fit a JIS screw. At least that's the standards, but to my experience a lot of Phillips drivers are actually cut so they do fit decently in a JIS screw head. Either that or the JIS screws I've had weren't quite following the JIS standard.
Phillips screws were not designed with torque limiting in mind, it was something that was noticed after use and spun as something positive to limit over tightening.
Great video but one thing I want to mention is about cost. Pozi drive as crews are cheaper than torx or pocket screws....when you buy it frequently price may need to take into consideration.
Great stuff. Really clear and to the point. thanks
Thank you so much for your time and information that you offers us people with tiny 🧠 activity, god bless you and the 👸 of 🏴
Seems any of the cross slotted designs are an exercise in frustration when they cam out if you have to drive them into something somewhat hard by hand. Torx or Robertson followed by Allen (hex) in preference here, as they don't slip out when you're turning on 'em.
Fantastic presentation
The big advantage of the Robertson screws is that you get 2 screws in 1: a square head before using it and a round head after having used it. Double whammy! 👍😜
If you're rounding screws out, change your bit, it's worn out. A Robertson is tapered so that it can be press fit to a screw. This is handy for driving screws one handed. However, if the screw is no longer sticking to the bit, THE BIT IS WORN OUT.
@@Bryan46162 Or, 4 corners is just not enough. YMMV but at my factory we use about 1300 pounds of Torx screws per year and never have any problems, unlike the Roberstons we used before.
Excellent, clear explanation 👍
I recently got into the pocket screw arena. I have a wheel chart from KREG and a whole case of different sizes, lengths, coarse, fine, indoor and outdoor. There's a lot to go through just to incorporate it into a project. On thinner wood 1/2 inch I had a blowout on the back of the connection. The downside is that sometimes they wobble when starting.
One guy doesn't use the stop collar guide. He does it by eye and sets them deeper
Very interesting video, thanks Andy
Thanks Andy well researched and graphic explanation easily understood.
Cheers James! 👍👊
Great video and agreed re outcome. Good interesting detail.
Absolutely brilliant video. Thank you.
Great video Andy.. 60 years on this planet and I can now tell the difference between PZ and PH..... thanks to you 👍
No worries - you'll curse every time you use a Pozi screwdriver in a Phillips screw now! 😂
@@GosforthHandyman I have a philips screwdriver in my toolbag with PH2 written on the handle with a marker. I am surprised how often I have had to use it to assemble flat pack furniture type jobs.
Robertson is by far the most favorite and popular in Canada.
Great vid. Very informative.
Great clear guide 👍
Hey Andy, Ive just bought a box of screwtite2's from screw fix. I quite like them but interestingly they have some sort of adapted driver that is derived from pozidrive but with added grip. Have you had a go with them, any thoughts?
By far the best explanation
Perfect video length that nice one 👍
Great explanation of the drive types. The funny thing is that all my life (mostly working on electronics and consumer products) virtually all the screws I’ve run into are Phillips despite them being one of the worst types still around (although still miles better than slot screws, which are still used in electrical cover plates).
Here in Canada, Robertson are most popular for construction, and Phillips are used for drywalling. I believe Torx is more popular in the US for these purposes. Pozidriv is almost unheard of, the only place I’ve ever seen one in real life is in high-end cabinetry, and of all the dozens of screwdrivers and bits I own, there isn’t a single Pozidriv bit among them. They are a special order item.
Thanks for your video! great job.
I only use a Phillips bit for taking apart work someone else did. I’m in the US and using mostly Torx some of the Phillips and Robertson combo screws which are probably similar to a Pozi drive
Thanks, very helpful and interesting!
Great explanation!
Ah, good man. A PZ2 bit is never far from my driver. 99% of situations too. Great vid :-)
Very informative great video, thanks👍
Great explanation. Thanks.
Screw this! Thank you for sharing another great video.
I carry a full set of 6” long Torx wedges fit bits remodeling bathrooms. My favorite feature is that since they taper the six points will grab in Allen screws. For instance those pesky set screws in towel bars and faucet handles. Since the bits are so long I can get them into the set screws at a very low and turn them.
Hi Andy, once again, really useful and informative (no surprise there then). How do "Supadrive" screws fit in? Agree with the comment below, but also beware of cheap screws. "Cam-out" can occur because the screw recess has failed. That also applies to the quality and condition of the bits used.
good vid. recently (i rarely work with wood usualy mettal) i tryed to get some cheap hex screws into wood after having only used spax (they are self centerd hex but fairly expensive) and getting them in straight without a pilot hole was absolutely imposible. will use a pz2 next time thx for the advice/explanation :)
Thank you, best explanation ever!
I am now getting more and more idea as to what screws to be use and drivers. From GHANA, thankz
great educational video!
Thanks after years of using them i learned why pozidrives are best...but I do like robertsons too since I got a load of deck screws made with these which had the driver included. Never a problem removing years later.
I'm old enough (barely) to remember when Robertson drive was starting to make its way into exterior screws (in USA) and it seemed like a total game changer. This seemed to coincide with the rise of battery-powered drills being used to drive the screws. That's a wonderfully worn-out example of a Phillips P2 driver BTW. Nothing brings out the shortfalls of the Phillips drive like a worn-out driver tip.
Here in Canada it is hard to find anything other than Robertson other than for drywall fasteners. Robertson works better than anything else I have ever use including Torx or Posi.
What a great video. Thank you.
Great explanation of the difference between Phillips and Pozidriv. Until some time ago if you purchased a set of screwdrivers in the EU (and certainly in the USA) the crosshead screwdriver was Phillips. Despite of Pozidriv being the better screw, crosshead screwdrivers always seem to release themselves from the head when applying force. This is bad when fastening screws, it is a disaster when trying to loosen screws. Together the the round-headed slotted screw where the largest force is applied where the slot is the least deep I think cross headed screws are a mis-design, with Phillips the worst. Indeed, Torx heads are a relief. No self-releasing heads and screw-drivers.
found this video very informative and useful.
No worries! 👍
Excellent I'm a labourer on site and have often been surprised and out done by on the difference's lol cheers pal
No worries bud! 👊👍
In Australia, PZ2 is not very common. After some effort, I have managed to find a PZ2 screwdriver and I did some tests with a few PZ and Phillips screws around the shed. Contrary to what you said, the PZ2 doesn't grip the screws very well and there seems to be a fair bit of variation in the depth of the hole in the PZ screw so the driver doesn't seat properly. A good Phillips bit, however, seems to grip all my Phillips screws nicely, and they don't wobble. Not only that but a small Phillips screwdriver works quite well in a large screw etc. On the other hand, a PZ1 doesnt work in a PZ2 at all.
Torx are used here a fair bit and are excellent, but as you say, you need to pick the right size. Good video - Cheers
The quality of screws makes a big difference. Good P2 screws with decent bits - like Dewalt impact bits, or Makita XPS - are absolutely fine, and rarely cam out. I ran into some bad Robertson screws in which the square hole reamed out when I hit a knot, and they were actually harder to remove than a reamed out P2 screw; that sort of soured me on Robertson screws for a while. Finally I gave up and bought a couple of big Spax screw collections. The stainless screws are all their version of torx (nice but unnecessary) and the others are PZ. I've never had any trouble with either of these, but I also never once had a Spax P2 screw cam out, either, as long as I was using a decent bit.
in my youth in Northumberland, the Pozidriv was the screw of choice. In Canada, where I live now, the Robertson screw is the king and is used in construction.
In my limited experience, I find the Robertson is the least likely to slip than any other type of screw I've used. But I don't have an impact driver. Yet.
The Pozidriv screw and screwdriver is largely ignored here, but IKEA sells them and they sell the screwdrivers and PZ bits to go with them too.
Great! Very informative.
Phillips screws & screwdrivers were *designed* to cam out. It was a low-tech mechanism to prevent assembly line workers from over torquing, and stripping, the fasteners or holes.
No, they were not designed to cam out. That's a myth that cam about after to explain why they preformed so poorly.
CMG30, despite a concerted search effort, I have found no evidence to support your claim that the fellow who invented the ‘Philips’ screw/driver was simply incompetent.
9:28 this is actually really important, thx
I positively loath Phillips heads screws. The greater the torque you need to drive the screw in, the greater you need to push, to the point where you simply can’t push any harder and it cams out. Hate them!
The Torx driver also has the benefits of fitting into hex screws.
Amazing video!
Great, finally I find someone who points out the difference. Still, I've got a question. I think a big difference is also the fact that the four 'blades' of the tip of a Prosidriv screwdriver have parallel sides whereas the 'tip-blades' of a Phillips driver taper and thus force the screwdriver up and out of the screw when force is applied. In the case of a Posidriv that tendency is totally absent hence the fact that the posidirv screw hangs on to your screwdriver so easily. Am I right or mistaken?
An unexpected source for an honest talk about screwing😉😂
Too right. Hope I don't get demonetised! 😂
Neil Snape there are also other types of screwing, but we shall not go into that here.
I hate the torx. Even with the exact fit tip, the slot tends strip out with longer deck screws. Great video! thanks
Thank you so much, I never appreciated pozidrive screws until now
No worries Justin! 👍
I really learned a lot from that. Genuinely interesting content.
But, you didn’t choose one that may work or actually even try,,,,,to shave with any of them. 😂
Ha! Another Peter Millard fan!
I thought I was being too picky for preferring Torx over Phillips and _only_ ever buying Torx screws if possible. Now I see I'm not alone.
Interesting video. Thanks.
When was the last time someone said screw you mate ; )
Thanks for the breakdown!!!
I bought lots of screws from the auction. So now I have pz2, robertson & torx. I like robertson. They sit well on a bit.
There are also a Torx version that's self-aligning (axially, and holding well) - there's a little protrusion, a tipin the bit and corresponding hole in the Torx socket, or I should rather say I saw this type of Torx being introduced and marketed few years back, but can't tell whether id develop any foothold or it just faded away - as a solution in search of the problem it pretty was.
(Torx screws are meant for bigger screws and harder woods, as they can transfer more torque safely; Pozi is generally meant for smaller screws and less torque.)
Also, there are different angles and width of the grooves in Pozi system as compared to Phillips, I'd say PZ it's an improved version (in a sense) of PH, or "PH v 2.0" - in the same way as Torx is an improved Hex.
I actually never tought that i would watch a video on screws
PZ2, Mr Ubiquitous- gotta love them though, they’re in 98% of everything* I make
I do favour the Paul Sellers perspective on using slotted screws if they’ll be visible, especially fancy brass ones (which readily snap in oak, I now know, gah)
Yeah, totally agree on slotted for decorative / period use. They do look nicer... as you say, providing they don't snap. 😀
One of best video on this channel imho
Cheers Kris! Hope you found it useful - the next one about all the different sizes I use will link in with this. 👍
@@GosforthHandyman I found tons of great information. Love such technical vids. Thank you!