Do you really NEED a JIS Screwdriver??
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- čas přidán 10. 06. 2024
- Stripped cross-head screws are one of the more frustrating parts of being a mechanic - but what if there's a solution? Here Danielle delivers the gist on JIS, followed closely by more information than you could ever want about the subject and a quick look at some JIS-compatible tool choices.
Vessel Megadora (frequently misremembered by me as the "Megaladora"):
www.vesseltools.com/handtools...
Vessel Reversible Bit Screwdriver:
www.vesseltools.com/handtools...
Hozan JIS (though only called Phillips by them) Screwdriver Set:
www.hozan.co.jp/E/catalog/too...
Motion Pro JIS 1/4" Bits:
www.pedalingtools.com/product...
For cool Neutral Support SWAG and other neat content, check out the website!
www.neutralsupport.net/
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By far the best discussion on this topic on CZcams. Well done.
Thanks!
*Thank you for clearly and concisely addressing this issue. JIS + point fasteners were essentially Pozidriv long before GKN patented Pozi in 1962. There are millions of Toyota, Honda, Subaru and Mazda brand products that were assembled in Japan with JIS fasteners and sold world-wide. This applies to more than vehicle offerings. One example is Honda BF250 outboard motors. Cheers!*
Wow, you are amazing at nailing down this confusing topic with specific, accurate information. Thank you.
From back in the air cooled motorcycle days(when you couldn't find JIS stuff at Sears) I would grind down the tip of a phillips to get it to fit the carb and case screws.
I did the same thing or I replace the screw with a Torx head
@@mrgcav Way better
I hate buying new tools. So I refurbish all my old Phillips by rubbing the tip down. Which makes it nearly the same as jis. I've done this for years. And only found out today..... 😂😂😂😂
*American ingenuity for the win!*
I feel like everything I learned in carpentry was kinda wrong and some of the information was withheld. I am just leaving all this and it's all because I was looking for a small stubby screwdriver, because the ratchet broke on my trusted 1 I used for years. I seen a video on a weird looking ball screwdriver and I didn't realize that I jumped into a rabbit hole. I spent my evening looking for information about JIS screwdrivers and I found your video. I thought my bike had stripped screws on the derailleur and I just didn't bother adjusting it, but it is JIS screws. I am glad that I didn't try, after the phillips camed out. I am surprised this stuff isn't taught in school, especially when I paid for my Carpenter class in the trade school I was in years ago. I had tests on the history of different tools and screws, but nothing about JIS was ever taught. I feel like I learned more off of CZcams and the internet in general, than I learned in school. Thank you for the video.
Until you start working on Japanese bike parts, motorcycles, or cars - pretty much an ignored topic in the US!
Best explanation of JIS on CZcams. Great job!
Thanks!
agreed. i'm surprised this channel doesn't get more subs.
I was just thinking the same thing, the engineers themselves couldn't have done a better job explaining this. I've been watching telecom techs strip out and destroy JIS fasteners for absolutely years.
Some alleged JIS screwdrivers look to have a fairly big radius in the internal corner of the 90 deg angle of the flat driving faces, which I thought genuine JIS does not have, the bigger radius causing the camming out to a large degree, rather than the flat sides driving the screw in or out. those Vessel drivers do look to be the best available, a bit pricey but top quality and the grippy ridges in the flanks are great. many thanks for the best description of JIS that I've seen on youtube. lots of love.
Thank you for this video. Your explanation was very helpful.
I was on Amazon trying to order a VESSEL BALL GRIP Ratcheting Screwdriver (+2x100(4") Their electricians ratcheting screwdriver/stubby convertible. When I got to the page there were two seemingly identical #2 Phillips screwdrivers. One that was much cheaper that ended with a (J). It was $16.98 as opposed to $28.35 for the one without the J.
I guess that means that I'll be not only saving $11 and change, but I will also be getting potentially a better screwdriver.
Thanks
Years ago I had this problem. If/when I got the screws out of my Honda, I used a hardened steel plate with a range of holes drilled through and put the screw in the smallest hole it would fit. I then used a Vessel impact screw drive bit and hammered it snug into the screw head. If the screw head was already a bit damaged, I would also flatten it slightly with a hammer and then use the bit. When funds allowed it I replaced all the screws with quality socket head screws. The impact driver was also the best way to get the screws out too. The original screws also tended to corrode inside the aluminium parts. My father had some silvery anticorrosion paste that helped reduce the problem.
This is the best and most thorough explanation of the jis/philips debacle 👏
Other viewers have commented about this video being the best explanation on this subject on CZcams and they are absolutely correct. She (sorry first time viewer here and I don't know her name) does a good job of explaining this subject and is a really great communicator. Almost 15 minutes on JIS and Phillips screwdrivers and it's worth every bit of your time.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it 🤘
プラスドライバー = "plus driver" = literally, a driver with a cross-shaped bit. It doesn't distinguish between Phillips and JIS.
Apart from that, thank you very much for the explanation of the differences between JIS and Phillips, and for where the industry is.
Thank you!
Before this video, I had never heard of the JIS screwdriver. Now I may be buying one.
Very well explained, I have been trying to buy a JIS driver tip here in New Zealand and when I ask at a tool shop, they look blankly and ask what it is! They couldn't even suggest where to look, but thanks to you I now have all the cycle shops to try. I am 90% through a job on a Japanese Motorcycle and I can't get the screws loose, They are holding plastic parts so I can't use heat or impact methods to loosen them but the correct driver will do the job. I could order one from overseas but shipping is too long, I need to finish the job quickly
Thank you very much.
Excellent video. I didn't even know about JIS till now.
Excellent video. Well researched. I have found that Klein screwdrivers and as someone mentioned on another forum, SnapOn screwdrivers work just as well as the JIS screwdrivers. Maybe they're made to the new ISO standard.
I want to cam out the JIS of your knowledge all over the whole Internet.
A fountain of useful JIS information! Cheers, my dear fellow mechanic!! Pjw
Right tool to do the job right.
Recently rebuilt Yamaha outboard carburetors...the screws were damaged beyond belief...$4/per screw...needed 12 screws...someone or numerous others used the wrong tool.
You presented some excellent information
Thank you very much. I want to try it around in other spots at work.
Thank you for clearing this up
Great video, thanks for sharing. Cheers
Wow, I thought I was a screwdriver nerd. This is AWESOME! Instant subscribe.
Very informative video.
Excellent info!
I'd say a normal Phillips 2 will work fine if you're careful but make sure you wash the dirt out of the bolt head to get maximum engagement and hope the bolt isn't seized!!
I have some Vessel phillips 2 Gosai bits from amazon Japan (150mm long) which I pair up with my Wiha Centrofix screwdriver/bit holder,. The bits are really narrow so you can see what you're doing and the overall length (don't know how it compares with the Park Tool screwdriver) seems good to me, on some bikes/derailleurs it can be tricky to aim the tip if the cable is in the way or your hands are blocking the view.
Worth mentioning, the Shimano XT derailleur on my new bike has hex bolts for limiting screws so I bought some 150mm long hex bits. 😉
Nice info! Thanks.
Great job at breaking that all down.
They are a must if you work on older motorcycles. No more stripped screw heads.
Very informative!
Great video
Thanks!
Лучшее видео по теме на ютубе!
wasn't expecting a Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory reference in this very complete and info dense video - but it was there anyways! nicely done, I now have more bits to buy because I'm a completionist apparently.
All I know, is I have an 8 piece Vessel Megadora set, 1 shorter #2 than the long 1 that comes with kit, #2 #3 Megadora Impacta, just ordered the #2 Impacta, but they are so good they are all I use now
Great vid! Btw, the translation of the Japanese label @4.26 is wrong. The label just says "plus(+) driver" and does not say Phillips, referring it's a cross tip screwdriver, as us Japanese call the flat-tip, "minus(-) driver."
Also I love that you use Vessel ball driver 220w. I do too!
See, that's why robots will never replace us 😜 Thanks!
I found one of these screws one time and was wondering why it was so hard to unscrew with a Phillips. Also side note I have some cool Japanese vintage pencils with a JIS logo on it
If a number 2 phillips bugs you, just take 0.5mm off the tip with a grinder, and label it accordingly. Also, most decent derailleurs use 2mm allen screws as stop screws nowadays, which is the only place you needed JIS screwdrivers (old Dura-Ace and XTR derailleurs with seized alu screws) and the others are steel & will tolerate my bodge, above.
True for most! I anticipate seeing those coming in on bikes for at least another 30 years 😉 I have an M786 derailleur here that is still sold new that comes with JIS currently - the m9000 in the video of course did not so maybe Shimano has seen the light 💡
I have an old Bike toolkit with phillips bits that are labelled as PH.2 where the dot apparently indicates that they're JIS compatible. I've been using them on all JIS screws I've encoutered without a problem. Recently I got a Wera screwdriver with regular and the flutes on the PH2 bit are a tiny bit longer than on my old PH.2 bit, but they still work perfectly with the limit screws on my Shimano derailleur and have no slop.
Many PH bits are the newer profile that blurs that line so fully that you won't have a problem. Just good to keep an eye out since not all are the same!
JIS crankcase, etc., screws/bolts on older Japanese motorcycles are often very stubborn to loosen and remove without stripping damage to the heads. It can help to use a quality brand JIS pattern screwdriver, with a solid shank, that can be tapped firmly with a hammer before attempting to remove the screw/bolt. An impact driver may also be needed. It's a PITA to remove screws/bolts that have been messed up previously with standard Phillips tools often requiring drilling out.
The first time I got to use a manual impact driver was to remove stripped / seized carb bolts on an 80s Yamaha XJ650 Maxim - worked beautifully, and now I always have one on hand just in case!
I had no idea about JIS. I have always used flat screwdriver on those shimano srews, because all my philips screwdrivers sucks on those. Thank for info.
I concur, till I owned a used Toyota truck. Didn’t know.
I really enjoy your videos no matter the topic. I'm going to buy one Vessel now
I have been doing a bit of research on JIS screws/screwdrivers.
At this point, I feel that phillips should be obsolete.
THANK U.
Great info well explained. Can I ask what brand is the yellow handle phillips with the hex shaped shaft?
It's a Pedro's screwdriver, they make a nice set
Thanks!@@NeutralSupportNews
I'll say you don't need a JIS screwdriver. In our workshop we like to use a large slotted scredriver for this purpose. The supposed JIS screws on Shimano components have a slot machined in one direction of the JIS profile that fits nicely with slotted screwdrivers. Since I started using slotted instead of Philips screwdrivers, I have not rounded any screws.
Edit: Changed my mind! Will buy a Vessel
Before I had a JIS screwdriver, I also used a flathead for a lot of Shimano's JIS as well as the centering screws on V-brakes. In my mind, it's more like you CAN do the job with other tools. You can also have an adjustable wrench instead of individual 10-19mm wrenches. Anything that makes something a little easier or more consistent is not a requirement - but that small difference might come in handy in a particular case (besides the never ending pursuit to "have all the tools")
@@NeutralSupportNews nevertheless a great video! I did not know about the JIS screw standard. Thanks a lot!
After seeing someone strip out a JIS screw on their Shimano shifter in our community workshop last week, I changed my mind. We will probably buy a Vessel 900 P1 and P2 screwdriver. Fun fact: After the girl busted the screw, she noticed cracks on the headtube - frame is toast!
@@neglectedairresistance8975 I'm glad she saw the cracks at the shop and didn't experience them first hand!
The screw you hold on your fingers - could use the “terminal tip”, Vessel makes those. They are comes yellow and marked T18.
You also didn’t mention that ISO 8764-1 specify two forms “H” form for Phillips and “Z” form for Pozidrive.
And forms of those recesses are specified in ISO 4757.
So now ISO 8764-1 became a broader term with some variations that was originally thought.
Good info!
Thank you very much for an other interesting video! :) Do you know what the difference is between a "normal" Philips screw and a JIS-screw? If Philips screw heads won't strip when being turned with JIS screwdrivers, is there any advantage in using special JIS screws instead of just the normal Philips #2 in combination with a JIS screwdriver? Thanks again! :)
After falling into this rabbit hole for a while, a Phillips head screwdriver in a Phillips head screw would preserve the "cam out" function of the screw head. With a JIS screwdriver, All four flutes will contact 90% of a Phillips head screw (except the ramped/rounded inner corners), negating that same "cam out". Since the JIS screw has defined inner corners at the cross to hold the tool, it will have even more contact with the JIS screwdriver - more contact means more control and less stripping. In low-torque applications like most bike things, it may not be as necessary. Now, a 15 year old front derailleur limit screw on a tri bike.... give me JIS/JIS all day 😀
@@NeutralSupportNews Thanks a lot! :)
Is Whia like an ISO ? I've seen complaints on Amazon where people are saying it's like a 1.5 than a #2. I really like my Whia set, and Williams for the big awesome American handles. 👌 thanks for the content
I've never owned a Wiha screwdriver - I've heard some similar things about them being maybe a little different in sizing. They are in the modern ISO/Phillips family for sure.
Before I found my way here, I spent a couple hours looking up the JIS issue on the internet (weirdly discovered that Shimano also make fishing reels! ) I always had an issue finding a screwdriver to fit derailleur limit screws . Your video explained everything really concisely. Thanks !
Thanks! They even have "Ultegra" reels :-)
does Jis screws have J shape corners on slots?
long story short....buy reg Phillips drivers and sandpaper the tip of one down a bit. I have done thus for years.
when you buy a big box of screws and they come with bits, they often are like the same model as the screws
I thought original Jis is about the flanks are straight not tapered like philips,some pozidriv bits are straight
The crossheads built according to the ISO 8764-1 standard are called PH, which is NOT Phillips. That's meant to differentiate the international standard from the American Phillips and clear the confusion. With the JIS standard getting out of the picture in Japan, just use PH heads for all intents and purposes. They're compatible with the other two.
Most PH list as "JIS Compatible" - like the bits that come with Pedro's tools. It is pretty interesting to compare the two. Close in most dimensions, but the JIS standard had a flatter tip and shallower recess. In practical uses, since the JIS standard is swiftly dissolving, PH 8764-1 has definitely become the standard that most are using. Murky waters when you get into true JIS vs not.
@@NeutralSupportNews They say JIS Compatible because they know what the American buyer is looking for. I just bought a Vessel Crystaline driver with the included cross section bits clearly marked as PH1, PH2, and PH3.
Would you happen to be able to recommend JIS screw drivers that can be used with a 1/4" ratchet?
I have seen some "company branded" JIS sets online with a hex end for a socket. I don't know who makes them or if they are true to any standard. Gofast offers a set.
I have a Yamaha motorbike and the carburettors seem to be using JIS. someone has damaged the heads on the float bowl drain plugs. The Hozan seems alarmingly cheap on Amazon compared to Vessel, are they serviceable despite the budget impression I get from them?
The Hozan work just fine. They are just molded plastic "cheap feeling" screwdrivers. The dimensions feel solid, and I still use them. I just grab a Vessel 99% of the time. If you have a stuck screw on a carb, you might get a hand-impact driver with a JIS bit instead. That has saved us a bunch of times on carbs. As you hammer on the handle, it turns the screw head (combining downward and rotational forces). They work super well.
I see thank you
@@NeutralSupportNews
thanks for the video. Why not just grind, or file, a flat spot on the tip of the Phillips ?
The blade angles are less steep in a "true" JIS - but grinding the tip off is a trick that plenty of people use to make their existing Phillips engage more for sure.
@@NeutralSupportNews Thanks.
You can modify a Philips screwdriver to fit JIS by grinding half a millimeter off the tip and deepen the flutes ever so slightily with a Dremel and cut off wheel. I have done this successfuly down to a #1. Smaller then that the precision is impossible to achieve free had.
For home bike mechanics which sizes should one get? Size 2? Size 1 and 2? Size 1, 2 and 3? If you were to get only one which size would it be?
Order of importance: 2, 1, 3. I use a 2 almost exclusively so that would 100% be the "only" choice - otherwise the 1 is super useful for working on shifters etc (things that you don't normally have to take apart but then suddenly you do!)
Thanks!@@NeutralSupportNews
Where do Jis Screwdrivers use? Can they be used in Electronics equipments & computers?
Yes, lots of applications! I recently removed the circuit board from an electric motor - it had JIS marked bolts
Great Video,Sadly, I think most of the confusion between JIS/Phillips is how screwdrivers are marketed now; True, JIS is an obsolete standard that was phased out in the 20-0's, ISO has replaced both JIS and old Phillips and was designed to be compatible with both the old standards.
I think it is also important where you are getting your tools. I have plenty of screwdrivers of mysterious origin that predate any of the decisions about ISO etc. If you just pick up any old "cross tip" you may get unexpected results if those were your family's old tools etc
I concur with your reply; I to have screwdrivers from why back when and out of habit test different screwdrivers for the best fit, in particular if the screw is really tight.@@NeutralSupportNews
Does the vessel produce screwdrivers with phillips tips? Or does it only produce them with jis tips?
Technically, Vessel is using the newer standard and producing "JIS compatible Phillips" screwdrivers. So most of their screwdrivers are Phillips. It's a wild world out there for cross head screwdrivers 🙂
@@NeutralSupportNews a bit complicated to understand. What do you mean?
Does the vessel produce JIS and Phillips screwdrivers or not? Or only JIS ?
@@NeutralSupportNews
are the cross tips that VESSEL now produces "JIS compatible Phillips? Then it produces the JIS?
@@NeutralSupportNews
the Vessel told me: Vessel company was involved in the creation of the JIS/JCIS normalization.
Officially the JIS standard has been absorbed by the ISO in 2008, therefore the promotion of JIS/JCIS old standard is not actuality.
Accordingly, all cross-recessed bits and cross-recessed screwdrivers (as PH in catalog) follow the JIS/JCIS manufacturing process.
They are compatible with JIS/JCIS and Phillips screws as well as NAS & MS screws.
How about these Vessel screwdrivers for Pozi screws?
I don't encounter pozi screws so tough to say! You'll have to update us if you ever do.
Bang on for pozi screws. They are absolutely fantastic tools - Vessel.
What about "Pozidriv" ?
Completely different again, the screws have extra little grooves in them to fit the pozi head
So what is the best, JIS screw driver????
I like just about any of the options Vessel puts out - that's my go-to
@@NeutralSupportNews Ok I gonna get some,8 piece Meggadone, like the big shark
Standards in general are sadly a mess across any market out there. It feels more like manufacturers of this and that deliberately try to add their own things instead of coming to a consensus and make international standards. Just look at bottom brackets for bicycles, it's a complete mess lol or any other low tolerance bicycle related thing.
Riiight... "our #2 cross screws cam out and strip, so why wouldn't we replace them w/ even worse, tiny, more prone to strip-outs hex screws..." 🤣 🤣 🤣
"what tool removes the ones with the perfectly circular hole?" 😁
Wiha Centrofix bit holder is the best screwdriver for JIS bits.
UK Co called King dick, make a driver called 1 for 6, which is perfect for any bike screw I have seen in the past 20yrs. Phillips and Posidrive drivers are very annoying on bikes, and should be given away to friends for DIY home improvement projects.
That thing looks like an engineering marvel 😁
For elektronik = PH0 PH1
For Motor = I have PH2 PH3
Answer is obvious: if you own a BMW and never intended to work on it, you can very well do without a JIS screwdriver...
Unless you're also really into Yamaha speaker equipment 😜
JIS Better than Philips Screw
She Looks like a Cartoon character.. 😂😂😂😂. small faced, tiny mouth,
but I loved the video, very informative .. This is the most informative video about JIS I've seen so far.. Very useful content..
On top of all this... Consider all these screws are made in China by the lowest bidder...🤦
Sometimes the screwdrivers/bits also, and by a different manufacturer 🤦🤦
I have an Vessel Impacta screwdriver 🪛 and love it. I use it for the infamous Honda brake rotor screws
*...and brake drum screws found on Japanese-branded vehicles. Cheers!*
"The Phillips screwdriver design has a tendency to cam out during operation due to angled contact surfaces which create an axial force pushing the driver out of the recess as torque is applied. Despite popular belief, there is no clear evidence that this was a deliberate design feature." -- wikipedia.org/wiki/Cam_out
Thank you for sharing! I read through the patent, how interesting. It seems like the source of the rumor about airplane mechanics may never be known but if it was true, it was only accidental on the part of the designers of the Philips head. Also, the original Philips head screw used an anvil that was exactly the shape of the driver to form the cross in the head - leading me to think that potentially the issue was made worse with diverse manufacturing sources not quite matching up. All speculation, but thanks again! Super interesting
*In modern vernacular, camout was a bug not a feature. Unintended consequence of a poor design. Cheers!*
lol wtf is jis? do you mean pozidrive?
edit: nvm! im from scandinavia! we dont give a shit about japanese standards over here! we got our own!
Hi,I like your video, have you tried wiha/wera/pb? I heard ISO 8764 "better" than jis, I don't know, I don't have jis screws, thx.@drengskap @Neutral Support News
I think the English information about jis may be wrong and outdated.
Correction,
I google Japanese,旧JISネジ vs iso ，Statement from Vessel,ねじにある丸い刻印「ISOマーク」
"point"screws are rare in Japan now.
"point"means new jis/ISO(only M3/4/5) ，
"no point" is old jis in japan in 1960'，
The difference is the "screw pitch".
and new JIS B 4633 screws also no point.
only ISO 8764.Correction, vessel not iso8764.
Some companies claim to make special JIS compatible shapes, for which I have no proof one way or another besides experience. ISO 8764 essentially replaced JIS - though in itself is not JIS. For that reason, some ISO 8764 screwdrivers work better than others when paired with JIS screws. The 8764 standard is going to be the closest thing still in production (give or take, there's a lot of grey area here!). It will get you good purchase on almost any cross-head style screw.
If you have a Japanese car or motorbike, or a bicycle with Japanese components such as Shimano on it, then you most likely do have JIS screws.