Robertson, Phillips, and the History of the Screwdriver
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- čas přidán 3. 06. 2024
- Most everyone owns at least one screwdriver. But Canadians likely own a screwdriver that few outside Canada would recognize. The differing fates of the Robertson and the Phillips head screwdrivers demonstrates that innovation is intimately tied to historical events. The History Guy remembers the forgotten history of the screwdriver.
This is original content based on research by The History Guy. Images in the Public Domain are carefully selected and provide illustration. As images of actual events are sometimes not available, images of similar objects and events are used for illustration.
All events are portrayed in historical context and for educational purposes. No images or content are primarily intended to shock and disgust. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Non censuram.
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Script by THG
#history #thehistoryguy #screwdrivers
The first time I worked on a jobsite where they used robertson screws I felt like I had discovered the wheel. They're so much better it's incredible that we still use phillips at all.
Yup. I used a few and then bought a huge batch of machine and woodworking screws along with boxes to keep them. That was when I owned a house. Now I am downsized to a condo and don't do as much work around the house.
Philips are made to cam out after so much torque to prevent damage to the screws strength.
@@matthewwilliams6596 I agree. The problem I have is the screws have to match the max torque and the material that it is being screwed into. Just recently I was trying to reuse brass screws after readjusting a door. Quick cam outs on all of them ... Also driving general purpose screws into 100 year old walnut didn’t work either.
The square drives give you more margins. However in the case of walnut I also got broken screws. And a burnt out Dewalt.
shit we still use flathead screws lol
@@rajeshkanungo6627 yeah, they can be a pain in the ass
Being an American who has used both, Robertson is preferred. Thank you Canada for a great invention! 🇨🇦
I've heard from the older generations that Phillips was designed to slip at a certain point so as to save the threads from stripping out.. this could be true or it could be men defending the tools they used who's to say
@@adamkluckner3429Designed obsolescence started there lol
@@Karen_Karenson learn to read first Karen
@@Karen_Karenson they're not saying Robertson is American, they're say they, the poster, is American
Same here !
I was in the coin-op video game business in the 80s and 90s here in Canada. Atari had a manufacturing plant in Ireland, they assembled the wooden game cabinets using Robertson screws and shipped them both to Europe and North America. In the bag containing the manuals was a Robertson screwdriver!
Imagine if, as children in the classroom, we were taught by a teacher with this kind of passion and charisma.
Actually, I did have a few such teachers. A very few.
Imagine if we had today's desire for knowledge and understanding back then! 😝
@@em0_tion Children have a very strong desire for knowledge, when it is encouraged.
I would never have imagined that a lecture wholly on screws could become wholly riveting.
I see what you did there... Ha!
Nailed it!
@@greatnortherntroll6841 Wow! You were very quick to fasten on🛠😜.
@Don Rit Most consider Phillips a-head; at least a bit.
There's a twist in that.
My dad's number one complaint about any documentary discussing the Robertson screwdriver has been that not one of them thinks to mention the fact that the Robertson tip also lasts infinitely longer then any of the other ones. ( particularly the Phillips)
No. It’s definitely finite. And it will start stripping screws not long after if it hasn’t simply broken the head in half with those sharp corners that concentrate stresses.
First off that was a figure of speech but all the same it does last a hell of a lot longer and I don't know what kind of screws or screwdriver tips you were using ( they might have been low-grade ones).. but I've not suffered those problems.
Your dad's onto something. I find I get a much longer use out of my square headed drivers than the star headed ones. The star headed driver seem to shear the wings off quite easily in impact drivers.
@@stoojinator I also realized after the fact that another thing that can lead to shearing is using the wrong sized tip.
Robertsons are designed to fit snugly. There should be no play Between the screwdriver tip and the screw head.
With a good fit you should be able to almost move the screwdriver into the vertical position before the screw falls off.
@@stoojinator I would suspect that you are driving posi drive screws. Look at the screw head. Does it have a pointed hole in the bottom or a flat hole? If the latter it's probably a posi drive screw. Take a Phillips driver bit and grind the sharp tip off so it seats in the screw better. If that works look for posi driver tips if you can find them. I don't know where you're located.
The Robertson and the Torx screw are the only screw heads in my shop. I will use a straight head on occasion but only for nostalgic design of the work project. Thank you for a great video. Keep up the great work
I have coffee cans of the old flat head screws I keep around just for restoring old work, for everything else it's Robertson/Kreg or Torx. Thous I have run into a few lag screws with odd star drive heads.
The same discussion can be starten about the metric or imperial system. Metric ofcourse is superior but the US still is stickie to the inferiour
The Robertson screw is now the screw of choice for electricians in the US.
There's also the ECX, which is basically a combination of square, phillips, and flathead screw. LOL
@@RobertLeBlancPhoto In the electrical industry, it's referred to as a combination screw.
It would be if you had free access to all sizes.
@@RobertLeBlancPhoto The ECX. Made out of pot metal. Thank you Leviton. The worst screw in the world.
I can't imagine having to install Philips screws at the back of junction boxes all day long. I've only ever used Robertson and the ability to reliably affix the screw to the end of the driver and then install it one handed is awesome (and arguably safer). About the only fault is the different sizes required, #2 for everything on the boxes and #1 for the devices.
Phillips heads: helping power tools strip heads since 1932.
PickelJars ForHillary ya. I hate when that happens.
I've always thought the guy that created Phillips created E-Z Outs the following week.
Any tool when used properly will do a good job and that goes for Phillips screws and screwdrivers too.
PickelJars ForHillary That was the whole point of the Phillips. It is torque limited by design.
Yep
My dad's name was Robert and he was a mechanic. When I was younger he would refer to the smaller and larger robertson screwdrivers as a Chris and a Jason after me and my brother. I would always roll my eyes at that.
As a woodworker in the US I can say we often use Robertson screws, they just tend to often be referred to as Kreg screws due to their proliferation by being used in Kreg jigs for joinery/assembly.
Yah, as a Canadian carpenter I couldn’t imagine driving a 3 “ number 8 wood screw with a Philips head. I live 20 minutes from Milton Ontario, where Robertson factory still is
Some of the coated Kreg screws are crap, the coating so thick the driver doesn't fit the screw properly. I'll be buying my square head screws from someone else when I run out of Kreg screws.
@@mikeking7470 outsourced manufacturing - they are more expensive, but you can source true Robertson screws from the original manufacturer
I’m more accustomed to star screws than Robertsons, never seen a Robertson in the wild. (USA)
@@bernieschaloske6711
or from ANY hardware store in canada. they have tons of them!
As a Canadian, I've been using Robertson screws all my life. They are much preferable to the Phillips ones. Really no comparison. Due to the brilliance of their design, I just assumed that the rest of the world used them too. Had no idea that outside of Canada they are relatively unheard of. Such a pity the rest of the world hasn't caught on.
Actually it has caught on in the building industry here in the states. For more than 10 years now I've seen most exterior decking and framing screws use a Robertson head. Torx types are also used, but they do strip out more easily.
@@mikewithers299 Torx strips out more easily, but Robertson cams out much more easily than Torx. At least, the ones I used did, I only tried one brand. Maybe they were poorly made.
@@paulh2981 I've had my time stripping out many screw types. My bits were always taking the brunt of damage. I found that buying good quality tips, and applying good firm pressure, and keeping the bit straight help me not strip my screws and bits as much.
I always found that the Phillips screwdriver and the Flathead screwdriver always strips the screw heads if you're not careful compared to the Robinson screwdriver
@@paulh2981 I have never had a Robertson cam out on me. You definitely got a bad batch. That is the whole advantage of the Robertson. It will (under enough torque) deform the driver bit before deforming the screw head. Brilliant design.
Phillips screws taught me how to swear in several languages.
If you used slot heads you would be fluent in several languages!!
Taught you...
@@dopiaza2006 thx :)
If you use a Robertson head screw you spend 100% of your energy TURNING the screw. If you use a Phillips head screw, you spend 20% of your energy turning the screw and the other 80% of your energy PUSHING the screw so that the screwdriver doesn't pop out. I think it's pretty clear that Robertson won, and I'm happy with Canada keeping some inventions/technologies to itself for competitive advantage purposes. The less the world knows about them, the better it is for us. :)
Me too! (Re: "taught me how to swear in several languages")
Fun fact: Information panels at the Henry Ford and Thomas Edison museum in Fort Myers, Florida are attached to the walls using Robertson screws.
Possibly intended as an ant-theft measure?
They are used for decking screws where high torque is required, not optional..
Hey, that was a fun fact!
that IS interesting :)
Gunna have to check this out! Thanks!
I was working for Lockheed on a Canadian program. We had to ship some items to the company in Marietta. After the items got there we received a nasty call from the plant telling us to either use different screws or send a screwdriver down. Yea, they had secured the box with Robertson screws.
😂😂😂That is hilarious but understandable if you have never dealt with Robertson I guess lol
I’ve been in that exact situation, had to cut open the crate with a sawzall because we couldn’t get those Canadian screws out
I'm an American and my 1986 American made motor home has Robertson screws. I had no trouble finding a Robertson screwdriver. I have a Japanese made radio that uses the JIS standard screws. The JIS screw looks like a Phillips screw but a Phillips screwdriver cams out and badly burrs the screws messing up the looks of the equipment.
@@leeebob2 my mobile home, a Rollahome, used clutch head screws, a weird thing with a butterfly head. I think the air powered drivers they used at the plant had torque settings, made that way so that the screws and drivers didn't fall into the lunch boxes of workers.
@@realemonfulp
I started using Robertson style screws here in the US about 20 years ago. I love their ability to pretty much hold themselves on the driver bit, even without magnetic assistance. I also liked what I thought was the impossibility for them to cam out. About 5 years or so into using them, one did cam out, and since I wasn't even the least bit expecting it to happen, I didn't have my other hand holding the workpiece a safe distance from the screw, and I proceeded to drive the bit through my thumbnail. OUCH. That was the one and only time that I ever had the bit slip on a Robertson to this day. They're definitely my screw of choice when applicable!
yeah so much quicker, especially for repetition work. One handed usage in many situations is great. Its so much easier to slot the bit. In construction we always use them. But we actually use phillips a lot around the house, even more common around the house actually, since we import most of our retail items, and dont manufacture a lot of them. Damn that sounds painful lol. Good thing it wasnt a flat head, it might have lopped your thumb off haha. But a sqquare pushing through your thumb doesn't sound nice either.. THe force needs to push that dull cube into your thumb sounds gnarly lol.
I've never done that with a hand held screwdriver, but once and only once, when said bit was attached to a drill... a lesson not soon forgotten. the fact that they can be reused so often (if driven and removed in the same alignment) are also a real cost saving.
As a Canadian, this little piece of our history has been left mostly in the tool box. Thanks for bringing it to light.
Susan Gunn I’m from the U.S I love the Robertson screws. We do sell them here but for limited purposes.
@@SuperBobblehead77 Dear Caleb; You obviously are an individual of great taste & craftsmanship 💚👍
@dlee t oh I hear ya.
If I travel I'm gonna say I'm Canadian too.
Robertson to Canada is like America's objection to using the metric system.
It's a big eff you 😆
@dlee t Never be ashamed where you come from. When you are a level headed decent human being you show people what is good in America. People like Donald Trump & his supporters are not who the majority of Americans are at heart. You're obviously a person with great taste. Wherever you are in the world, that country is better for it😊
History Guy does a excellent account of one of the best jet fighters,at that time, ever built, by Canadians,the Avro Electric. I think thats what it was called. Was so good,that American builders weren't having any of it. And saw to it that the Electric never saw the light of day. Also the only prototypes we're not only scrapped,but shredded to make sure there wouldn't be any trace of what could have and should have been. That and sell out Candian politician(s) and it's fate was sealed.
I knew a South African who had moved to Canada. When he had to move back home to SA he had a steamer trunk full of Robertson screws and drivers shipped to his new address.
I worked for a company that did large equipment installations out of country. They always had to bring a lot of extra Robertson screw drivers and screws because they were frequently stolen. Phillips not so much.
That was a smart man
I did exactly the same thing when I moved to Australia from the Great White North. I pity the poor b@stard that buys my place when I die. Without a couple of sizes of Robertson screwdrivers he'll be....screwed.
We have Robinson screws in south Africa for many years. We just call them square head screws.
One of the really useful things about Robertsons srews is that the slots are very resistant to stripping which means you can often use them over and over again which is handy for temporarily securing things and building and stripping concrete forms.
Cabinet maker here - love, love, love the square drive screw.
I've dealt with a bunch of stripped out Phillips and slotted screws. And I cursed the individual responsible and many a generation of his her descendants every time. But that Robertson head screw is a winner in my book.
As a younger member of our Canadian Engineering Department in the late 80's, we had built up a Prototype Sample using Robertson Screws (of course!). However, some time later It was sent to one of our US Customers for evaluation. We received a terse note to the effect "Send us some Real Screws!". My Boss' response was "Wait, we will send you some Real Screwdrivers!". :-)
Well that is you Canukes trying to figure out what us Americans said so there is that. And then Torx came out and changed everything.
That's funny.
@@sithyarael6807 I never thought "Canuck" would become a Canadian shibboleth, but here we are...
Robertson screwdriver is superior yet Americans refuse to use it because it’s not theirs. Imagine if we thought the other way around I don’t use any other products because it’s not Canadian?
So many times I slept with the Phillips screwdriver and smashed my fingers while working on my car, never had a problem with Robertson.
@@crush42mash6 I live and England, and I don't recall ever seeing a Robertson screwdriver or screw in real life. Pozidriv, Torx, and hex all over the place, but never Robertson. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Robertson (since, as I've said, I've never seen one), but they don't appear to be especially popular outside Canada.
My dad turned me on to Robertson screws decades ago. What I love most about them is their reusability. Anything I've assembled with Robertson screws, I have no problem dismantling it for storage or removal, and then reconstructing it later. I can understand why the manufacturers love using Phillips - it makes their job easier while making future repair harder. Rather then camming out, Phillips tends too often to disintegrate to the point of needing to be drilled out.
Green, Red and Black Robbies...Can't imagine doing the work without them. One handed wonder.
Me: "It's starting to get late. I should go to bed. ... Oh look, a video on the history of the screw driver. Ah, why not."
sirMAXX...hahaha, same. Not bed time but I thought, knowledge is ‘power.’ Interesting video. Now we know.
We are one big family of unknowns!
And me!
Yep, yep, yep
Literally me rn
When one person singularly turns a relatively dull subject into an interesting one due to their grasp of English, oration, and entertainment. Well done this man.
Who said screws are a dull subject
I recently had my garage extended & bought several sizes of Torx headed screws to be driven in using my Makita impact driver. I love these Torx screws! They are so easy to drive in with the impact and you get the feel for them quickly. I also go out with my locksmith friend to deal with all manner of doors & windows here in Scotland. We both detest flat screws for their propensity to allow the driver to "fall off" the screw and almost scratch the piece of door furniture you're working on. The only downside with Phillips screws in this use is that it is hard to find decorative screws that suit the brass or chrome furniture. A slightly domed flat always looks more appropriate....
As a bricklayer for over a decade I thoroughly enjoy testing the efficiency of several tools built for a specific job to their breaking points. Videos such as these are music to my ears, I truly love hearing the history of innovation.. especially since I’m from Ontario, Canada.. I had no idea the Robby was developed here
I miss brick in Ontario, I grew up in North Bay. Great choice there for its insulating ability, the cold and humid ass summers.... Out in BC now, you dont see much residential brick out here. It's a lot of stucco and wood.
They taught us this in our shop class in Barrie Ontario.
As a Canadian we’re especially proud of the Robertson. It’s in widespread use in Canada today and provides excellent torque transfer with minimum slippage. 😃🇨🇦. Excellent story!
You darned Dominions, always bragging!
Very common for carpenters in the usa to use robertsons. My back porch is secured with robertsons
Full marks for actually discussing the *desirability* of cam-out in certain applications with Phillips!
When stripping the head is part of your manufacturing method. Sure.
@@Dr_Do-Little -- When driving in sheetrock, I want the head to cam out when things start tightening down.
@@larrysulky7614 That's why, here in the UK, about the only Phillips screws we use are for sheetrock (or plasterboard, as we call it). Any other woodscrew is mostly Posidrive, that resists cam-out. You'll see if you check out Screwfix.com, the UK's biggest retailer of screws.
@@Dr_Do-Little It was a huge benefit in large scale manufacturing during a time when most were still put in by a human hand but before torque control tools were available. A stripped head is much preferable on the line to an overtorqued failure point.
The "automatic" cam-out, which strips the head at least a little, is a poor substitute for a modern electric screwdriver with a clutch that can stop spinning when it gets to a certain torque. And the fact that you can sort of use the wrong tool (wrong size Phillips or even a Slot) to drive a Phillips screw is hardly what I would call a worthwhile advantage, seeing as it also tends to strip the screw at least a little. One can also use a one size smaller Robertson screwdriver or even a Phillips screwdriver to drive a Robertson screw in a pinch (obviously also at the risk of stripping it).
I know this is a very old video, but I thought I’d comment anyway. I discovered Robertson screws for woodworking 15 years ago. Here in the US they’re known as “square head”, but they are Robertson screws by another name. I always liked the way the driver grasped the screw by friction. I found that Robertson head screws are much less likely to round out than Phillips head. Very interesting story, thanks for telling it.
In the electrical trade even here in the us you come across a lot of combi head screws between Robertson slotted and Phillips. Every single time I come across one of those screws I pull the Robertson out every time.
Yes!!! The new electrical bits are called Milwaukee ECX bits, but what's interesting is that the square recess inside the ECX screws is actually deeper than the ECX bits themselves... meaning that the square Robertson bit is still the preferred tool for these new ECX screws. 💥
I’ve worked as a cabinet contractor for years. We always use Robertson screws. They work best in fine cabinetry. I’ve seen philips screws strip (or can) out so many times. The Robertson goes in nice and precise. No strip, no sharp edge.
Ken Sherman I have used them before, and I have never had one strip on me either.
I have broken more than a few but that was because of having the clutch set to tight on the driver. I have probably driven close to a million of them. They only cam out when you have a very worn driver bit.
As a Canadian electrician, I live by the #2 Robertson. THG's analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of both types is bang on. Thanks for the episode that speaks to all us "sparkies".
I worked for an electrician in Seattle in the late 80s, and we used nothing but #2 square drive. It's still my go-to fastener at home.
Remember when it was called an eight ? A six for the ground wire ?
@jumblesgoodridge Phillips is better for that application because of the high revs and the quick release . Robertson would snap off in such a case .
Hey sparky. Check this guy out. LED lighting czcams.com/channels/7CuAwCz4JDLTEa7XE4oodg.htmlvideos?disable_polymer=1
Youre Canadian but call it a number two and not a red? Lol
I'm in NZ and we know the Robertson well. I build community theatre sets and we get a lot of volunteers with little tool experience to "help" with the build. The best thing about the Robertson is that it's so hard to burr the head, which means it's very easy to unscrew when you strike the set at the end of the run. In fact, the only thing I know that will burr a #2 Robertson head is using an impact driver with a #1 Robertson bit. That was a very tense afternoon, and now I usually do the building by myself.
I'm accustomed to learning new things from The History Guy in almost every episode - but the fact that good ol' Robbie heads are little-known outside Canada caught me broadside! They're so ubiquitous here that it never even occurred to me that they might be a local (if you can call 10 million square kilometres "local") phenomenon.
Red Robbie’s the best. Your driver can hold the screw even upside down. Works amazingly with an impact gun.
🍻🇨🇦
Red, unless you need a green or a black. Just a matter of size.
@@fergusmallon1337 or that ridiculous yellow, size matters
Never heard of the Robertson screw.
Also never thought I'd watch a 16 minute long video about this topic
and enjoy it this much.
Very interesting to know the square head designs that I've only come to use relatively recently are actually over 100 years old.
And very hilarious to think people have been using inferior Phillips screws for such a long time when better alternatives have existed.
As a Canadian, I can confirm every single screw in my deck, porch, duct work and many other things in my house are Robertson head screws. There are a lot of screw heads that I can actually use both a Philips and Robertson.
As a Canadian, I can say you missed the most important difference: with the Robertson screw you can put a screw on the bit and wave it around and it stays on the bit, so that you can drive it completely one handed without using a second hand to hold the screw on the bit. Try that with a Philips head - oh, you can't, it falls off :(
@@lynxxlynxx So you know what I'm talking about. Thing is, robertson predates torx/hexagon by at least 30 years.
Fucking magnets, how do they work?
Yeah yeah, I know, it's a meme, but still.
Also, how long it predates torx doesn't matter, if it's not widely used then it will remain unused by most of the world.
People are not going to change to it from one day to the next.
the thing about the robertson is it is like the daily econo driver of screws at least in canada. cheap plentiful reliable. you can't just pull a box of torx screws off the shelves at home depot. here you can do that with robertson.
Magnetic heads. They're awsome.
lynxxlynxx torx strip easily tho. Im really careful when turning a torx on my vehicles but also am the same way with philips. I rarely even see philips screws when working on vehicles its alwasy torx or socket type bolts.
When I moved to Canada I was introduced to the Robertson screw. Since then I use it whenever possible. The Robertson screw and driver are just fantastic to use. Using it one-handed when working on something overhead is a great advantage. All the wood projects such as decks and wood furniture are much easier when using this ingenious design.
In my mind there is no debate, the Robertson is the best hands down. I have never stripped a screw head using them and you can apply much more torque on them, even more than on a Phillips. If I am repairing anything that has Flathead or Phillips screws I replace them with Robertson and have been doing so for over 40 years.
When working on ventilation shafts i always swap out the robertson screws for pozidriv screws. They are quite rare in the netherlands so no one has the robertson bit on hand...
There is no doubt the Robertson is far superior than a Phillips… my fave go to is #2 Robertson.
Years ago I remember when American carpenters first came in contact with the Robertson screws here in Canada, they'd have a perplexed look upon their faces. They couldn't believe the ease and speed afforded by this screw and driver, and wondered why these weren't available south of the border. Most of them heading back home would take a selection of sizes saying that they'd rather have these than the Phillips any day.
@@iamheadshotnl5452 Ironically here in Canada we have the same problem with posi drive tools. Everyone thinks they're Philips drive-able but they're not. Before I bought a bunch of posi driver tips in UK I ground the sharp ends off a set of Phillips drivers to use on posi drive screws. Got me out of many a jamb.
@@pauldavidson4977 My dad was one of those guys. We came back from vacation with a few boxes of drywall screws and my love of Robertson screws continues. Luckily they are available at Menards, so we don't have to go to Canada for them, but best screws for drywall. All of my deck screws are torx, but the only time I get Phillips is if they are free.
I've owned Robertson screwdrivers since 1972 and find them handy, especially during electric projects. Robertson screws are sold at every home center for finishing, especially mounting molding. I have to say that, while I have many Phillips head screws in my toolbox, Torx is my favorite. I have an assortment of Torx drivers and plan to standardize on Torx.
The thing with Torx is that you need a bunch of driver sizes, unless the job calls for just one size. I'm a DIYer and use numerous sizes of screw (wood screws mainly), and #1 and #2 Robertson drivers cover all of what I use regularly. And of those, the R2 handles 70% to 80% of the screws I use.
I suppose that versatility equates in the Phillips realm to #1 and #2 PH, but the extra pressure required to drive a Phillips and the desire to avoid cam-out scars led me to Robertson. (In fact, I've switched my Phillips drivers to JIS #1, #2, #3 made by Vessel - the JIS gets a better grip on the ordinary Phillips head.)
For me the frustration is that I live in the States, so Robertson is hard to find and getting harder, as Torx seems to be sweeping the deck screw field in place of the "square" drive (Robertson). (Yes, I know there are actual differences, with the Robertson have the double-taper recess vs. the square's straight sides.)
Anyway, my wife's Canadian and we do visits to family a couple times a year, so.... And thanks to ebay, I have a wood-handled Robertson #2 (red) driver made in the Robertson factory in Milton.
Edit: Reading the discussions here further, I should say that I'm mainly a hand-tool user, and even my "cordless driver" is a 10-inch sweep bit brace with the appropriate driver (and adapter as needed) in the chuck. Once a great while, I'll put a 4" driver (Robertson or Phillips) into my variable-speed electric drill, set the top speed low, and drive screws... But that's only when I have a lot of them to do. Otherwise I like the torque control the bit brace gives and, man, is it easy to bear down when needed.
History Guy. You are one of the greats. You have that uniqueness in your narratives, the cadence, pauses, humor, diction and tonal qualities that I put you in the same league as Sir David Attenborough and Walter Cronkite in your delivery. Thank you for being you !
Someone asked me what I’m watching and I said “the history of screwdrivers”
I don’t think I’ll be invited to the very many parties this year.
Well then they have obviously never felt the joy of boring documentary☝🤓
Hahaha!
Hahaha that's a good one!
Tell them 'screwdriver' as in the cocktail ;-)
Since I know for a fact you're the life of the party (surprising how much you can learn by simply watching someone through their bedroom window) I believe it is merely themselves, whom they have screwed.
I have often heard of the Robertson's being referred to as "square drives". It wasn't until I worked in the RV industry that I learned of the Robertson name and came to really appreciate the design.
Ted Woodside “American square” is not a Robertson. It’s much shallower, and less tapered than the Robbie. Doesn’t hold the screw as well.
I too discovered the supremacy of the square headed screw when I became an RV Tech in the early 90s. To this day I will use a Square headed screw whenever possible.
I worked briefly building temporary sets on theater stage. Our "reusable" screws had square openings. I don't know their patent definition but they were spoiling me with their ease of operation from the very first twist.
Square deck screws are popular in the USA.
@@howdyahworkthisthing1520
*I suspect you're wrong, but I can't be positive. I don't think there's any difference in depth.*
I became aware of the Robertson screw head when I began to work with wood. Ummm...like 30 or so years ago. I liked that the screw and/or driver was far less likely to 'cam-out' than Phillips or slotted. Power driving was golden. Much longer life for drivers. I still use "square drive" screws for the majority of my work in wood, even though the Torx head screws are all the rage now.
I was watching a show called, "Heartland," which is filmed and set in Canada, and Jack asks Parker for a screwdriver. He goes to tell her which one, and she responds with something along the lines of, "the Robertson ... I'm not dumb, I know my tools."
To which, I, as an average American, said out loud, *"What the heck is a Robertson????* That was 2 days ago, and now I'm sure the internet is always listening because this popped up in my recommended feed just now, lol.
Why couldn’t I have had a teacher like this guy?
Yep...might have inspired me to stay in school....
I had a geography/history teacher like that during middle school, 30 years ago. And he is one of the 3 teachers i still can remember the name.
You probably did.
Bart Scanland nope
Well, we all do now at least! 👍
As a contractor building houses I've seen a big shift towards the "Torx" head screws. The popularity of battery powered impact drivers seems to have pushed the industry in that direction.
As a wood worker for over sixty years, I’ve had a lot of experience with these fasteners. The Torx bits are by far the best design yet!
In between carpentry work, housing recession, I spent time in the automotive sector. As new young workers were hired and assigned to me I would have them go fetch me a Metric Philips Screwdriver!
Got’em evertime!
I can back you on that. I do structural concrete and torx are about all we use now. They drive great one handed with an impact, which is good for my aging labor pool in the trades.
Impact drivers do well with Phillips head screws. The handyman who helped me on a project had no problem driving three-inch-long screws into aged support members (harder, dried joists) with his old, well-used Dewalt impact driver.
@@nealrehm6895 Like sending someone new to get a wool saw, or a tin of tartan paint.
@@neville132bbk When I was learning to be an electrician in school, every year one of my teachers would ask the most gullible kid of that years class, to go fill a bucket with electricity, the entire school staff was in on it, and they would send him all over the school, they'd say, "oh were all out of electricity here, go ask somewhere else", and then when he found the teacher who'd be the one to pretend to fill the bucket, he'd go back to his class, give the bucket to the teacher, and he'd say "damn it all leaked out, the lid must've not been on all the way", and send him back to fill it up again :)
No debate with me over the two screw head types as until just now as I was unaware the Robertson version. I shall now switch immediately to the lesser used, less popular and not available at my local outlet screw……what debate and why????
I have watched, back to back with you; the Piper Cub plane and the Phillips screw what a channel you have sir!!
Again you have filled gaps and whilst it’s of no real use it does deserve to be remembered 😊
Kindest
Bob
England
You have an incredible knack for making the most obscure things so interesting.
Always a fan. Cheers!
As a woodworker, I've leaned more towards Robertson in recent years for the exact reasons you mentioned.
Electrician of industrial engineering here. Started my career back in my home country Germany and never worked with anything other than phillips screws pretty much. First job in canada i learned about the robertson screws... and the patent fight about it. Since i saw these they became my favourite ones.
In Canada, early 90's, working for a set design company, building and shipping set pieces to the US, we always added a Robertson screw now and again while securing the pieces to the wood frames for transportation. Also, more than once, I have had to cut a slot into a stripped Robertson head to allow a flat head to remove the screw.
Upon building a redwood deck, I discovered deck-screws which have a square hole centered in the head. Using a cordless screwdriver with a small square bit, works like a charm.
Welcome to the world of Robertson screwdrivers!
@@cbylsma626 I believe they are commonly used as "deck screws".
@@beameup64 yep, they are called Robertson decking screws and Robertson drivers. The square head gives it away! Lol
Yes those deck screws use the Roberson head.
When I moved to Canada and bought a house, I thought all the screws were stripped and I tried all sort of crazy things to get them out of the walls until I realized it was just a different type of screw.
i cant believe there is NO square screws anywhere outside Canada, this is crazy
Maybe not in USA but here in New Zealand, builders use Robertson screws all the time. Phillips for everything else though
@@reda19891 As stated by Phil. they are common in electrical manufacturing. I like them just fine. It's no different than any other fastener IMO. Just need the correct tool sized appropriately for the screw.
@@reda19891 we have them in Mexico, very limited applications.
Electrical, for screw terminals. And in roofing for woodscrews.
@@reda19891 check inside a breaker box
This is a rare episode that enjoys learning a simple tool found in nearly everyone's home while offering so many puns to be made.
THG doesn't screw around explaining the History behind the use and invention of the simple screw,
Im a mechanic in an injection mold type factory and the robertson square head is by far the best for industrial purposes. If a screw strips it makes my job much harder, so my shop is nearly all robertsons for screws. Fantastic stuff.
I am Canadian 🇨🇦 If a product comes with a Phillips head screw (which they always do) I often discard them. I can say it's rare that I would ever purchase a Phillip's screw on purpose. The odds of finding the correct driver is slim and I have plenty. Robertson come in yellow (tiny) green, red and black (largest head). Most multi drivers come with a green and red which you use 90% of the time. We even nicknamed the tools robby. As in pass me my red robby. It's a shame the rest of the world is missing out. They are a marvelous tool and screw combo.
I've been using Robertson screws here in the USA for 30 years.
I now try to use torx every where I can.
Ken/// IV'E USED THEM FOR YEARS ALSO,NEVER KNEW THEY WERE CALLED ROBERTSON SCREWS!!!!
Ive seen them in homes built in the 1970s, Even the impacts (used by hand) are rounded after 15 or so screws.
been using them ever since i started apprenticing as an electrician, most everything electrical uses robertson screws these days
You sound like a smart man
I inherited some of my stepdad's dad's tools and there were some of those strange square screwdrivers in the lot. The guy worked in Yellowknife Canada.
It is amazing to know that square drive screws predate the "phillips" that we know of in America.
When it came to building the fence along the perimeter of my property, I chose to use #2 square drive screws due to them not "camping out" compared to the less expensive Phillips screws.
What amazing research you have done here Sir. My favourite topics are corrosion and wear. They basically are the processes that cost humanity so much money and at times anguish. Maybe do a doco on each as you will definitely enlighten people on how corrosion and wear affects them in so many ways e.g replacing car tyres( wear), replacing rusted car body (corrosion), car scrapped as engine worn out(wear), water tap corroded internally ( corrosion).
Since you mentioned Canada, ever do a show on the Avro Arrow. That's Canadian history worth remembering.
Should we really remember that thing? Bureaucracy killed that wonderful machine.
YES. Triumph and tragedy
@@bok.. like oil refineries to be built in Alberta, it was a phone call from out of the country to the correct Toronto/Montreal law firms. NO, you're not going to do it. Tell your elected reps. in Ottawa. And that ain't over.
@@dwightstjohn6927 WEXIT Alberta.
Ah the Avro Arrow, a piece of Canadiana, the interceptor of what-ifs.
Canceled WHY? #1 With development costs out of sight and projected sales of 200 copies it would never compete with the sales forces and pressures of the US aircraft industry.
#2 it was the twilight of the interceptor a new Sam day was dawning.
#3 A government that could not see beyond a doddering fool of a leader who trashed an innovative, modern industry composed of a young, capable, skilled and experienced workforce. Like the fastener of this "History Deserves to Be Remembered" episode it has been consigned to a footnote in the dusty cupboard of old men's memories. It certainly was a better product than the "self snapping" power-driven Robertson fastening system.
Thank you Phillips for all of the many experiences with drilling out your screws. What a lovely device
That only happens to people who don't know how to use it.
@@wolfhodgkinson6866
Not always. If the folks who put the screws in for instance didn't bother to adjust the torque on their cordless screwdrivers but just left it on the drill setting and then also just wen't "meh, I'll just go for it until I hear the rattling sound and then give it an extra one or two seconds just for good measure", you may be drilling out a lot of screws and curse the ones who put them in.
In addition, it's also a question of the quality of the screws used (for instance, I learned the hard way that the best thing you can do with screws that come with cheaper PC cases is to just bin them almost every time, because they often are so bloody soft as if they were made out of pure zinc).
@@drops2cents260 proper size bit slow speed lots of pressure is the ticket
@@ronalddavis
Yes, I know that, but many seem not to.
@@wolfhodgkinson6866 the problem I have have as a mechanic is that dumb people think that the proper way to use a Philips is to just torque it until the driver strips the head of the screw... Then I have to either bust out the screw extractor kit, which rarely actually works - or drill it out.
Torx screws are by far the best - because even if someone uses a T20 driver in a T25 screw, it will only "barely" strip the head of the screw - and I can easily get the proper T25 back in the screw with a few light hammer taps and just unscrew the damn thing.
Philips head screws should NEVER be used for anything that's through - bolted or requires any reasonable amount of torque to be applied.
Yet I see thousands and thousands of stripped out Philips head screws that I have to drill out.
I've never once had to drill out a Torx... And the best by far is the Torx "security" or "no tamper" style with the little round dot in the middle - that literally makes it impossible to use anything except for the exact right size driver. You can't jam a T20 Torx security driver into a T25 security style screw - the little round thing in the center won't allow it to even go in the screw at all.
This is absolutely fascinating! I thought I knew tools, having had been a semi trailer mechanic for 2½ decades, worked on my own vehicles for 4 decades, and having done woodworking and other DIY for hobbies for at least as long... but I really _had_ never heard of this kind of screw and driver, before! Thanks! I'm pretty much gobsmacked with this information!
I'm the opposite. I thought everyone had heard of them.
Robertson heads are used almost exclusively in the manufacture of recreational vehicles like trailers and motorhomes. That entire industry is nearly all located in Elkhart, Indiana by largely Amish labor. I suspect that the combination of Amish labor and proximity to the Canadian border caused this.
In addition, Kreg Tools' "pocket screw" technology uses Robertson head specialized screws, and these are ubiquitous in woodworking circles. (Hint: the screws and a simple jig are "adapted to the meanest understanding" - try it!)
Yep my 25 year old Made in Canada campervan is firmly held together throughout with Robertson screws
Did I just watch a 20 minute video on screws? Yes, and I loved it! Extremely informative!
Lol, yep, we are tool nerds
I know eh!!
Yes we did! Very informative.
I'm glad you don't feel screwed over.
Yep. Robertson has my vote. 👍😎🇨🇦
They suck. Strip too easy
You’re Canadian, I presume?
Yup! They're the best. When the argument against it is their grip is "too good". The problem is not the screw. It's the driver. 😎
I just use them because they work best.
Once you go torx you never go back.
Square drive screws have been here in the states for decades. Commonly used for trim screws. They are never called Robertson. Good video. Slot screws are disappearing for good reason. I once worked at a screw company milling slots in screws.
I’m Canadian, and I was really hoping to see you do a video on this. Finally found it.
With all due respect, one thing you missed is that the Phillips was actually designed to cam-out, as early power tools couldn’t limit torque delivered. It takes a fair amount of pressure to drive in a Phillips.
We can very easily buy both Robertson or Phillips here in the great white north. One thing you will find is that the square-drive Robertson is really only found in wood-screws, and nowhere else. They don’t cam out at all, and are very easy to use, you just need a quality driver bit and it will last YEARS. Trust me that few Canucks are aware that the Robertson is a Canadian thing; we use it because it works, not out of national pride. And as a tradesman, I can say although the Torx, the six point driver that I’m informed is common in wood screws in the US, is relatively good, the square is better yet.
This made me spend way too much time searching and educating myself on sheet metal and drywall screws here in Canada. The Phillips head seems to be ubiquitous for that application and the biggest reason is apparently that a little air bubble is left when drywall compound is spread over a Robertson screw head.
I would be interested in what Canadian professional carpenters have to say on this.
Certainly for myself, the first thing that I do when opening a packaged hinge or door handle is to throw out the supplied Phillips head screws with Robertson heads.
Another good thing to remember about Robertson bits/screwdrivers is that they are colour coded with no.2(red) being by far the most common.
As a Canadian farmer you most certainly can turn Robertson’s with a smaller flathead
Edit; I’ve also seen sticks whittled into small squares however if only works if the screws already fairly loose
THANK YOU!
Robertson rules.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
Your statement implies I cannot turn such a screw with a flathead driver unless I am a Canadian farmer. 😉
@@ksmanning No it doesn't.
It implies that if you're a Canadian-farmer you MOST CERTAINLY can turn a Robertson screw with a flat-head small enough to fit.
It doesn't imply that it's necessary to be a Canadian-farmer to do so.
It doesn't imply that people who aren't Canadian farmers necessarily can't. 😉
Keegan Watt As an American from Washington state. I agree.
@@ksmanning As a Canadian non-farming mathematician may I assure you that the rest of us Canadians can indeed turn a Robertson screw with a flathead screwdriver in a pinch. I would not you can also use a many Philips driver though it is still better to use the proper Robertson..
Having used many Phillips head screws thanks for your history and sartorial elegance
Its wild how much of a difference the small final touches can make. Develop mass-production of screws, put the cavity in, then change the cavity to be smaller and have a taper and that's the part that changes everything lol
Robertson FTW hands down. Using them with an impact driver is amazing.
This was the very first episode of THG that I ever watched and it is still amazing and informative. I now only use Robertson screws on my woodworking projects. I live in South Africa.
Nice! Yeah they are so efficient and quick to work with in woodworking. Easy to slot, hang on the bit, self centers.
While working on my Suzuki motorcycle, I learned on a different video that the Japanese use the JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) screw and not Phillips. They are similar in look, but are different. I purchased a JIS screwdriver and what a difference it made. I then used the JIS screwdriver on regular Phillips screws and was blown away at how much better the JIS screwdriver worked. My dad was helping me with electrical work and was impressed with the JIS screwdriver. I ended up telling a friend of mines dad about the JIS vs Phillips. He had worked on Yamaha bikes in the 70's and 80s at a dealer. I assumed he would know what I was talking about but said he never knew that it was a different type of screw. He said they did go through a lot of screws back then due to stripping out the heads. He wished he would have know that the JIS was a thing back then.
Most screws I purchase here in Canada can be used with either a Robertson or a Phillips screwdriver! They have a square center section for the Robertson driver, but an extension slot going diagonally out a little at each corner of the square for use with a Phillips driver. These particular screws still work best with a Robertson driver, but can also be used with a Phillips when a Robertson is not available.
You mean pozidrive? It's a freak marriage of the two but works well.
USA comment here. I’ve always called Robertson “square head”. I just did some electrical work and noticed that all the load center components were Robertson“square head”. I think I would prefer Robertson “square head” screws over Phillips for almost all applications.
(also USA) That is the most common place I encounter Robertson screws: load centers a.k.a. (circuit) "breaker box". Both the outer screws that hold the sheet metal cover on (which are strictly Robertson) and also in the screw terminals on each circuit breaker are usually a combo Robertson/slotted bolt head.
Yeah, for working in electrical cabinets (or most anywhere) the greater ability of the Robertson screw to stay on the driver as you place it in an inaccessible spot is very helpful. They often stay on, just physically, and any slightly magnetized bit holds them nicely.
The ECX tips (square with the points aligned with the slot) are also very useful for electricians, I use one on just about every coupling and connector I install.
I'm an electrician, that is the only place I run into them. I like them, but use torx at home as they are pretty common now here in US ( Ohio).
Robertson isn't the same as square head. Robertsons are tapered and hold the driver better.
@@Nayr747 Thanks, I'll have to look up the difference. The square heads I'm used to hold the driver pretty well. Now I'm curious to see the difference.
Torx has taken over Phillips here in Denmark. When you try it you realize how bad phillips are. Many carpenters refuse to use them.
My local hardware store here in the US pretty much gives away Phillips screws now I’ve seen very large commercial sized boxes for $5.00 because no wants to use them.
And Pozidrive screws are also very popular, together with Hex screws. Here in the Netherlands.
Yep. Star bits are the choice product here in Wisconsin
They are really only efficient for drywall. Phillips are the easiest and fastest to load onto a drill. Since screwing drywall almost never requires much torque Phillips works best. For other applications robertson is much better. Or torx for you none maple boys
Torx and pozi are the best
I've been using the Robertson design since back in the 90s when I saw them in a woodworking magazine. It's my favorite and what I go to when it's available.
As an American carpenter’s assistant of seven years (freshman year of high school on), driving Phillips head drywall screws into MDF cabinets with impact drivers for the vast majority of that time, I often use and enjoy the camming function of the Phillips head/bit to gauge tightness and depth. Learning the right amount of pressure is a satisfying accomplishment, but I can’t say whether I’d prefer Phillips over the Roberts head with how little I’ve used the latter. Thanks for the video. I had no idea about the Canadian divide. Love your content.
As a Cabinetmaker, I've always called these "Square drive" screws. I prefer these over Phillips screws because Phillips screws cam out, as mentioned, for seemingly any reason. They also won't stay on the driver, even with a magnetic bit, if they bump into anything more substantail than a spider web. That's kind of important when you are snaking arm and driver back deep into a cabinet to secure a counter top, or when one hand must hold the cabinet on the wall while the other secures it.
Don't get me started on straight slotted screws. A former employer once told me the patent for them was supposedly owned by the Devil himself and I am inclined to believe him.
then there's this Allen guy too.
Allen's such a great guy, even if he is getting a little round in his old age...
Too many sizes, in both imperial and metric ranges, and no standardized color-coding. Crazy!
@@jrb_sland5066 yup welcome to American auto mechanics 1kg bag to fix a 2.2 lbs problem
**Not to mention the fastener head design called the "Hex" drive, invented by Reginald Hex. Or the square head design, by Larry Square... Anyway, it was smart of GM to switch from slotted to Phillips in the 1930s. That was some far sighted thinking by founder Robert General Motors, usually referred to as Robert G. Motors...**
Aww thanks
Discovered this channel with the Chevy Vega history... and now, with a thoroughly entertaining and informative, 16 minute commentary on 'cheese head' screws... I love this guy!!!
So that makes sense why my old camper (built in Canada) uses square bit screws on everything, I always wondered why that was, we do use them in the states sometimes (usually for building decks/porches) but I've never heard them called a "Robinson" screw. Pretty interesting stuff 🤔👍
"I hate phillips!" says every Canadian, every time they use a phillips.
Exactly.
Yup, every time!
I have learned not to hate them,cause I've learned to throw them away before ever opening the package they come in.
My Tunisian friend said they had a different name for them, they call them American screws, not spoken with respect.
Anyone who's used Robertson would never want to use another screw. What other screw stays on the drill/screwdriver without needing a magnetic bit???
I'm over 40 and been to Canada a dozen times, but this is a new one on me! Well played, History Guy!
We have superior screws but in general I don't think the tourism industry has embraced that fact lol
The father of one of my friends, would always go to the Canadian Tire Store, when he came up from Minnesota, carried back boxes and boxes of Robertson screws and screw drivers. That was about ~35 years ago.
Next time you'll have to sneak in a trip to a Home Despot north of the 49th. Tell the wife your going out for a screw and then try and get them past the Border Patrol.
In Canada we use a lot of Robertson and Philips. I have to say the Robertson is indeed better. Since drill drivers have clutches now, there's no problem with stopping when the screw is fully driven.
I always love these technology bits, your take on it always helps flush out any other info out there and provide bits no one else has. Thanks as always! (btw - vacuum 'not cleaner' history would be very interesting)
Should've titled the video "The History Guy: Screw History."
Niv Cha No.
Hilarious
Oh that made me laugh out loud. Thanks
Living in Canada and I keep telling my folks in Germany, to try and convince the industry to get rid of Philips screws and switch to robertson screws. NEVER have I stripped a robertson, ALWAYS (when the driver isn't wore out and even THAT takes forever) does the screws stick nicely to the bit or screw driver. ANYTIME a screw has been painted over, you can easily get the paint out or often just force the driver in and undo the screw. You CANNOT mix up the 3, rarely 4 different sizes of drivers, even visually they are easy to distinguish. When I first came to Canada, the Roberston was the one thing in my trade that blew me away. MUST BE EXPERIENCED to be truly believed and enjoyed! GO CANADA!
PS, more often than not, when you have a brand new driver bit and screw, you have to FIGHT to get the screw to come off the bit, allowing you to stick a screw on and wielding the combination upside down, walking around with and just simply not needing a magnet to keep them stuck together! Friction and geometry baby! And super cheap screws, vs torx
As a 60’s era Canadian growing up in Canada, Phillips, Robertson and flat blade screwdrivers were all so ubiquitous that no one questioned them. It wasn’t until decades later, traveling to the USA and other countries that I realized Robertson screws were mainly a Canadian thing.
Fascinating stuff! Thank you so much! You just answered a lot of questions I've had for years about this topic.
Robertson all the way!!!
Absolutely the best design! I've been using them over 60 years in Canada.
As a woodworker in the US I will inform you that I see Robertson screws and screwdrivers everywhere. Most of the pocket screws I use are Robertson screws. But the best screw and driver combo is the Torx. Because of the gear-like shape and fit, the screwdriver doesn't even have to be straight with the screw to get a grip. The screw can be driven or loosened even if the screwdriver is at a 30 degree angle to the screw.
Yes, Torx are the way to go. In the UK Pozidrive are more popular than Phillips, which I don't see often. Less likely to strip than Phillips, but nowhere near the grip of Torx.
As a woodworker and retired tradesman in Canada I have always used Robertson when possible. I do agree that the Torx is even better. I only have two complaints with Torx 1/ I had to buy more screwdrivers and sockets. 2/ it is not readily available everywhere.
My first THG video, by the way, and subscribed. I've long understood that the Robertson was basically known only here in Canada, but never heard any of this history. Nicely done! and looking forward to watching more of your posts.
Excellent video. Thank you. I have seen square drive (Robertson) grow in the US in the past decade. I keep a Robertson 1,2,and 3. In all of my bit sets.