🧙 Are the Maesters sabotaging the Targaryens? | House of the Dragon
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- čas přidán 2. 09. 2022
- Grand Maester Mellos has been doing a pretty bad job so far in House of the Dragon. He's treated two wounds , and they both got infected. Tried to help Queen Aemma give birth, and failed at that. The question for Mellos is he just a clownish terrible healer? Or is he a part of the sinister Maester Conspiracy?
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#GameOfThrones #houseofthedragon #hotd #asoiaf - Zábava
Hello
Im the guy in the picture
I played the birthing maester who is told to fetch the king
My understanding at the time was that i was sent because the grand maester was busy attending to the queen and a lowly individual such as me would never address the king directly so I gave the news to the hand
We were told that we had to demonstrate absolute deference to the king at all times ie bowing when he enters the room
If the show runner knew of any sub plot i wasn't told....but then again i wouldn't expect to be
That's really cool to know! Did a great job on your role.
That's really cool. You did amazing btwww!!!
To me, it seemed like Otto and Mellos were working together during the conversation about Laena! Mellos lists all the reasons why she's a good political match on paper, and then Otto hits him with a "wow geez I don't envy you, I would HATE to have to marry for duty. I loved my wife sooo much". Mellos had to make the argument so that Otto could very sneakily make the counterargument.
Yep. They are working together 100%
To be fair, Stevie Wonder could see that 🤔
Agree. Good cop/bad cop
There was a scene earlier where the Queen was taking a bath and Viserys say's dragon like heat referring to her bath water not being hot. I believe she had eluded to taking many baths in this manner which could have led to a complicated pregnancy due to the baby not receiving the heat needed for it to go through its normal progressions in the womb and eventually to a successful pregnancy. There's just too many signs pointing to the Hightowers plotting a sinister plan that took several decades in the making as Viserys later brings up Otto's string of luck for him to have been placed in his position.
They did the same treachery to Maegor. He wasnt born cruel. He became that way to ensure his family's survival against the Hightowers.
So I read that maggot scene a little different. It looked to me as if everything mellos and otto said was completely scripted by Otto. Otto knows his king isn’t the smartest guy. Mellos spouting out that it is the kings duty to marry laena and then otto coming in at the end saying “I don’t envy you” when talking about having to marry for duty over marrying for love. I’m pretty sure mellos was coached to say that so that viserys would think marrying alicent was his idea when truly it was all a part of ottos plan. It’s a risk but if ottos knows his king it’s a smart risk. Great video as usual!
Otto didn’t want to seem suspicious so he couldn’t suggest alicent himself but this conversation clearly was meant to have viserys thinking about marrying for love versus duty. Otto even mentions his own wife and how he didn’t remarry because it would be so hard to marry for duty after having someone he loved.
Definitely. And it's _very_ Littlefinger-esque 🤌🏻 He masterfully planted that seed.
@@chafrey8532
I don't doubt it.
But I don't think there's anything necessarily sinister about Mellos doing his best to help Otto out.
As the resident "mentat" it's natural for him to defer to the man who actually holds power.
@@chafrey8532 yet that bastard wants the women to marry for duty. Gross. No wonder Rhaenyra don't listen to him. U don't need to be a feminist revolutionary to be compelling enough for having exercised equality for your own sake.
I believe Mellos didn't want Viserys dead, but he also didn't want him to be healthy. It seems to me that he wanted the king to be weak and vulnerable. That was the way to control and manipulate him. And I'm pretty sure that he killed/contributed to Aemma's death, and possibly her earlier miscarriages.
The Citadel doesn't want a strong Targaryen monarch. It is my belief that it was the Citadel/hightowers who convinced the old king Jaehaerys to choose Rhea Royce for Daemon's wife probably because they knew she was barren/lesbian. They didn't want Daemon to have heir.
Spoilers
The same way of thinking likely will appear in couple of next episodes when they will be choosing a husband for Rhaenyra. And yes, I think it was Mellos saying that there is nothing wrong in your spouse being gay: "What of it? I am not fond of fish, but when fish is served, I eat it."
It has to be said that the Laenor/Rhaenyra marriage actually would have been a good idea had it not been for the "Strong" look of Rhaenyra's children.
This isn't something Mellos could have predicted so I'm inclined to think his advice was fine.
Very possible that mellos did something nefarious to aemma, but it's also worth noting that previous maesters said that aemma had significant damage done to her reproductive system from having her first child at like 13 or 14
@@memeaficionado
If Good Queen Alysanne was responsible for that she behaved badly.
Daemon doesn't dislike Rhae for her being barren/infertile, he doesn't care if she is or isn't. He didn't chose her to be his wife, that's why he's not interested
@@memeaficionado ugh. Poor Aemma, early teen pregnancy is so gross.
I think Marwyn’s line “Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? ” is one of GRRM’s dual meaning lines. At face value, gallant dragon slayers didn’t kill the dragons, the maesters did. But he was also talking about Daenerys at that point too, so I think he’s also talking about Targaryens.
That's amazing. I've never picked up on that before. I've always taken it at face value.
@@akiramado9198 😊😎☺️GRRM is such a masterful writer. No wonder it’s taken him what, 11 years and counting for Winds.
I was gonna say “I cant wait” lol
But it will be ready when it’s ready.
So I can, in fact, wait.
@@akiramado9198 at this point I think Winds of Winter will either a)never come to completion, or b) be released after GRRM has passed ... I say this because he knows the fans have high expectations and knows he can't please everyone esp after the disappointment and backlash that followed the final two seasons... I think his vision was marred and he's leaving it to his readers to come to their own conclusions..... If neither of those are the case then why is he writing and releasing other novels in the series? He's a damn good author but it seems like it would prove to be rather daunting.... Poured his heart and soul into the series..... Turned out to be a record breaking success around the globe, fans were deeply invested and attached to the characters and THEN- after everything - The emotions, the waiting, the TIME (countless hours fans of the both the novels and the show) spent dissecting every detail, reading between every line... The show runners decide to be lazy and wrap it up after 8 seasons .... The said screw anymore character development at a time it was the most crucial to let us in the mind of Dani especially. GRRM went on record SEVERAL times saying that they needed at least 10 (or more) seasons to organically tell the story... The devil is in the details kind of thing.. he's gotta be frustrated and somewhat terrified. People are crazy and if they don't like it there's no talking what type of drama he will have to deal with .
The main thing that can kill a dragon is another dragon. It was much more effective a strategy to allow multiple opposing Targaryen factions to form, because of the expense on the dragons during the inevitable civil war.
But there’s also another layer. Marwyn isn’t exactly a reliable source. Not that he is lying, but just as well he could just be wrong. I think that line is meant to draw in theories rather than point to anything solid.
Mellos seems to be building up a reputation for innocent incompetence, so that once the Hightowers are ready to wipe out the Targaryens Mellos can believably switch to weaponized incompetence.
Emma’s death is the first intentional Mellos kill
Very well could've been, it is so convenient for Otto
I don't know much about childbirth but it seemed that they did give up all hope for the Queen fairly quickly. I thought midwives even then could tell when a baby was breech before labor began so why were they blindsided?
@@BucketheadChuck A package deal, really
Remember that Otto also was not speaking AGAINST the marriage of King with Velaryon's daughter, but he pretended to be on board with this idea while using words which had to plant some seeds of draught in the King's mind - reverse psychology.
the one line that made my ears perk was when Alicent said: “You Targaryens do have queer customs.” And I realized that Oldtown is looking to end the Targaryens and the Dragons.
Remember the clip where Otto and Hobert are talking about the succession plan and Otto voices his doubt that he'll be able to sway Viserys' decision to name Rhaenyra his heir. Hobert's exact response to Otto was "its your job to make him understand." Conspiracy confirmed.
Mellos wants a weak king, not a dead king...
I do believe in the grand maester conspiracy in the books. However there is not enough evidence yet in the show to fully support this. But Mellos is at least sus. He and Otto exchange a look very often.
SUS indeed
I do not thing it is a great measter conspiracy, but there are sure as hell maester conspiracies. The evidence speaks against a big united cause given the masters we know.
I find it interesting that, in the books, it is Mellos who suggests Viserys was behind the Strongs’ murder. That is because, I suspect Otto did it, in fact, to eliminate a rival Hand.
not only that but he and ser harwin would be very strong allies to rhaenyra
Otto didnt want his bones being broken.
Mellos being incompetent wouldn’t necessarily preclude the possibility of a maester conspiracy. It’s possible the citadel sent mellos knowing his bumbling could be responsible for the downfall of the house without looking particularly intentional
In the novel, Rhaenyra brings her own maester to tend his wounds and for a time, the king gains his strength. Also, obviously there is a conspiracy made in the citadel to kill all those dragons. What do maesters do? Writing letters, sending them with ravens, tending wounds and they are giving advices to every Lord by having a position in their household, they know everything and everythought, some ravens can fly to one castle, some ravens can fly to many castles because the beasts are smart and can be tought. In the book, Otto have his own chains and he is famous for his preperations and writing letters to all ends for gaining support, offering hands and taking his time before a war to ensure victory. For this reason, he will once again be removed from the position of The Hand and replaced by Ser Criston Cole by Aegon II because of his impatience. But why do Maesters do that ?
Well, they hate magic and they desire to have a world without magic, so that they can easily manipulate people and dragons are magical beasts, the magic comes back to Essos and Westeros with their arrival in GOT. The Targaryen civil war "the dance of the dragons" will eventually end with the deaths of many dragons. All those big ones, Vhagar, Ceraxes, Meraxes, Sunfyre, Syrax and all the others. Only Cannibal, Morning, Silwerwing and Tessarion will survive in the end they are old creatures, after their death no other eggs will hatch.
I guess even Tessarion will die in the dance and morning is a young she dragon nothing much is mentioned about her though.
that is the problem with this theory you have four dragons in wild that you have no control over, you can stop them form have future dragons. wild dragons that will spread not control dragons. one is cannibal a dangerous monster. so this theory is not true. plus think of this, how could you poison dragon eggs? how would you know it would work? because if it doesn't work, the dragons will get immune to this. or worse something will happen to change the dragon into something worse? how do you hide that you did this? i think children of forest cause the death of dragons in this time. remember we know that character goes to the god's eye island looking for help for their side. which was the black. but everything comes with a price. that price was the death of the dragons. plus it got rid of a danger to the children. fire burns trees.
Why do the Hightowers hate magic exactly? Wish that was touched on in the show.
Aemma was wed to Viserys at 11 & was bed at 13, that’s probably why her pregnancies were troublesome.
I don’t think that the show will go with the grand Maester conspiracy but rather make mellos a pycelle type character that is Otto’s crony
There's a much more sinister character than either Mellos or Otto gnawing like a rat in the walls.
But we haven't met him yet, and probably won't for a few more episodes.
I dont see a difference. The maester conspiracy theory involves the hightowers being the puppet masters. They arent mutually exclusive.
@@alanpennie8013 hey just curious were you referring to Larys Strong?
@@abhJOKA
I was.
He's amazingly sinister. I thought he'd be more affable.
my pet theory was Mellos rushed Aemma into a C-section cuz he wanted to try out the shiny new surgery and, like many a doctor in human history, didn't particularly care about what happened to his patient. Think this works well with his general incompetence....or maliciousness!
You are underestimating just how much they fear and hate the Targaryens. You see this in how everyone looks at Daemon specifically. Melos looks scared all the time. He is like Alicent walking on egg shells. Maegor the cruel is still in living memory. They are 100% all in on a conspiracy to undermine and overthrow the Targaryens whether it is explicit or implicit. They are working to kill him until he Corlys/Raenys pressure him to take a new wife. Then all of a sudden they find a bowl of maggots to clean the wound now that they feel they can manipulate him into marrying Alicent. People have known about maggots cleaning wounds for 1000s of years. Any maester worth their salt will know this. Otto is a clever guy. He knows Viserys is insecure. Laena is such the obvious choice you can't not recommend her as the best match. It would be suspicious not to. You can see the anger on Viserys's face as he expects him to recommend Alicent. Instead Otto lets his silence do the talking while he exchanges knowing glances with Melos. Viserys thinks he is doing a power move by choosing Alicent to show everyone how strong he is when he was in fact totally manipulated. At least you caught onto the baby/wife murder.
I don't think I am, they clearly love Viserys as King. He's everything they want. Non-violent, easy to manipulate, agreeable. Getting rid of him is a terrible idea, as it would push Daemon into power the exact person they don't want him anywhere near power. Maybe that changes later when Viserys has more children, but in these episodes I don't see any motive to kill him. He's the perfect king for Oldtown, Otto, and Mellos. They should be trying, at all costs, to keep Viserys alive.
@@JoeMagician To quote Otto himself, "The gods have yet to make a man who lacks the patience for absolute power, Your Grace." They don't like Rhaenyra and they don't like Daemon. Daemon has no powerful allies at this point. Rhaenyra spends all her time dragon riding. It's the perfect time for a coup attempt. The idea that they are just content with Viserys and aren't thinking about the future and the mental instability of Targaryens and their crazy dreams seems a little short sited for learned men such as Melos and Otto.
I'm sorry I don't see the logic in killing the king they like to put the guy they hate and fear having power into power directly. They would be the first to lose their heads due to antagonizing Daemon for years. Plus it completely flies in the face of Otto's desire to get Alicent to marry viserys. Marry your daughter to the king only to then kill him before you have any grandkids?
@@JoeMagician Well they've established in the show Daemon doesn't have allies or aptitude for politics. The Hightowers crown the King. Daemon would not be king unless they crown him and they wouldn't. They had no problem fighting a generation long war against Maegor. I'm saying that was the plan until Viserys decided to remarry. For all they know he never would have. They can't make him. Once he decided to remarry the plan changed. That's why Otto is all of a sudden writing letters and sending his daughter to Viserys chambers.
He has the gold cloaks, caraxes, and the support of the Velaryons. At best Otto and mellos would be running back to oldtown to save their skins, as the first thing Daemon would do after seizing control (which they can't stop) would be to arrest them. And again, you're suggesting that they're still trying to kill him while also trying to marry him to Alicent. Those do not work together, as if he agrees to it he might be too sick to conceive or marry or die before either. If you want him to marry Alicent, you do not try and kill him too. Which Otto does obviously.
And I think the tens of thousands dead and the many many lords and maesters dead at Maegor's hands would disagree with the idea that they would have no problem fighting Daemon.
I think it's a mix of both. People have been shocked every episode to see Viserys still alive and breathing. I think the maester is keeping him alive, but also maintaining his illnesses so that he's weaker and easier to control. This way it will be easier to influence him and effectively stop Rhaenyras claim.
If the Targaryens lose control of the realm, at this point in history, the Hightower and Faith are set up well to take over and replace them. Worst-case scenario is, probably, that things revert to how they were pre-Conquest. But it well could be that they come to rule in fact and law not just over one kingdom (with influence elsewhere) but instead over all seven. As we see later in the timeline, it is possible to rule over all of Westeros south of the Wall without dragons - both the Targaryens and Baratheons do it. (The Iron Isles and Dorne being points of complication for this claim). Of course, at this point in history, there may be too much lingering sense of autonomy for the various regions, but considering the possibility is certainly a fair play.
i think at least in the show it confirmed this theory when the younger maester said to the older maester something like “ive read about something (herbs?) that could help-“ and the older maester melos cuts him off and assures him that the maggots always help the king. im thinking the younger maester doesnt understand the politics of it. i dont think the maester treating the king would be anything less than the best or most knowledgeable so i dont think the older maester is just out of his depth
knowing what these maesters can do rlly makes me think how powerful the hightowers are
The way Viserys's cuts from the Iron Throne get so infected, so continually,..one could think that someone might be deliberately placing contaminated matter on the sharp areas of the throne that he will encounter. But surely no one would want to harm anyone else, let alone the king.
I think the tepid bath water was to irritate the dragon babe in the womb to make labor harder and hopefully create problems with emma and the birth. Also a baby in breech can easily be known by a hands on assesment by even the least trained in birthing care fairly early in the pregnancy. In fact its not all that uncommon but they should rotate into normal birthing position a few weeks prior to the birth. If it doesn't start to happen on its own there are lots of techniques to assist it to happen most which are very simple. It's one of the major jobs of a midwife/Healthcare worker. To make a long story short i think they irritated the birth intentionally to at least do in emma and at worst kill them both for politics. Of course there could also have been foul play with the baby by the maester as a failsafe. That cough was indicative of fluid in the babies respiratory tract/lungs and either intentionally not cleared out or outright put there like a poison dumped in its mouth or any fluid really.
Thank you for this content and POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS that I don’t see or hear a lot talking about. Even more he let mother and child die while NO ONE conferred with a ROOM FULL OF WOMEN who more than likely gave birth to or were present for births than Mellos has. “Doing a bad job ON PURPOSE‼️” THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTENT ❣️❣️
I think Martin intended irony for the Targaryens in that they get special traits, not all of which are beneficial.
There seems to be an allergy to the iron throne itself, or whatever metal it is made from, that is making cuts on Viserys which will not heal.
Maybe it is supposed to be like silver to werewolves or sunlight to vampires. Viserys is fireproof, but maybe he has a metal allergy which prevents blood clotting and white blood cell activity.
I think Mellos is definitely incompetent as a healer. However, I think if the death of Aemma was a political hit by the maesters it would undercut the theme of gender in the show. As merely a queen consort, Aemma's health and life simply was not as important to this patriarchal monarchist system as the production of an heir for the king.
Perhaps they sometimes give good advice to conceal their plot, you know, alot of lies with a bit of truth mixed in to it.
I see it differently, Viserys would know that Otto and Mellos always agree on what to do, often working in tandem. That Mellos is breaking with Otto on the Laena marriage would highlight how bad Otto's advice is and how good an idea it is to marry Laena.
@@JoeMagician I think Otto allready calculated in that the king will find Leana too young, he mentions the age earlier in the episode, with Mellos confirming how good of a choice that marriage would be, might have been a way to seal the deal the opposite way, reminding Viserys of that wich he does not want, Otto played it really smart.
@@MrShadowofthewind
Agreed.
I don't think there's a chance Mellos offers The King marital advice without clearing it with Otto first.
I'm so glad I've found this channel, I do like the recap channels but these videos are the more interesting questions I've had
One more medical thing: Mellos mentions the moon charts for tracking Aemma's pregnancy. I am not sure whether that comment informs us about his skills or intentions at all, but I thought that mentioning it would be good for the sake of completeness.
Plot twist, Otto kills his wife once Rhaenyra starts to become of age.
This is a very well thought out video. Well done. And very entertaining 🙃
Curious where you stand on this after episode 5 with the younger maester having made and suggested a herbal poultice, and Mellos saying "no the leeches are good enough" right as we see Viserys looking like he's completely drained of blood
Honestly, i don't think this is necessarily his fault. VIserys seems like he suffers from something Like Leprosy. The key results of the disease being the shutting down of ones immune system and ability to heal wounds. If that's the case it doesn't really matter what the maester would do, the cut would probably fester. Another thing that makes me think it's something like that is once the wounds are infected Viserys doesn't seem too bothered by the pain of them, when such wounds would likely be seriously painful due to the rampant infections on them.
Never thought I needed to see Pycelle doing a tiktok vid. Appreciate it
Tell Viserys, I want him to know it was me. - Grand Maester Mellos
From watching Viserys' health problems, could he be a Type 2 Diabetic? I know that problem can sit in the background for years, and there's no way any Maester could diagnose it with their technology.
Yes, I thought he was diabetic when I was reading the book.
@@tashacrawford770
It would definitely explain the king's famous sluggishness.
Diabetes is one of the first ever diseases ever described in history. It is also relatively easy to diagnose because the urine becomes very sweet. Indian physicians in 400-500 CE were even able to identify that one type of diabetes was associated with youth and another with being overweight.
Also doctors would taste, yes they would taste the urine of people to detect diabetes, which makes your urine taste sweet, which is why is was called the ‘honey disease’. It was also known to stay away from eating sweets and carbohydrates while someone suffered from the condition.
@@HahaDamn I thought they just check if ants will drink the urine?
If I was maester I would study comedy 😂
What about the dead baby? There's no obvious reason he should have died within a few hours. I spoke with an ER MD friend of mine who said it was extremely weird.
That’s how we know what Otto’s plan is lol😂
Eh. Targaryens were known to birth lizard babies that basically die at birth.
@@anitat9727 Duh dude. It obviously wasn't a lizard baby 🤣🤦
people forget before antibiotics if you cut on anything, a rose thorn it became a gamble if you might die
One thing that bothers me about the grand maester conspiracy: if the maesters wanted to see the end of house targaryen, couldn't they just slip moon tea into every drink of every queen and princess? That would very easily prevent any targaryens from being born.
that would be to obvious
if the targaryens died, who would control the dragons that would kill anyone for food if left unchecked? (i.e. drogon in the books killing the little girl). they needed to poison the dragons somehow to weaken them first, probably by poisoning the dragon's food source. this would go on for years and years while the dragons continue to lay weaker eggs that wouldn't hatch anymore. Maesters said that confining them in the dragonpit weakened them, but i doubt it bc the dragon that rose from winterfell in a clash of kings was most probably from the clutch laid by vermax and it was still alive and strong enough after being trapped beneath winterfell for 200+ yrs. the maesters most likely poisoned the targaryens throughout the years instead of using moontea so that the targs could keep the dragons in check while both slowly weakened and died out.
@@empireofeden4649 bruh a dragon didn't literally rise from winterfell in a clash of kings, don't you think people would notice that like IDK ramsay and his army? The dragon is just smoke that appears in the shape of a dragon.
Also none of that explains why the maesters didn't give the targaryens moon tea after the dragons died out.
@@mappingshaman5280 i doubt that it was just smoke bc we see the scenerio play out through they eyes of the direwolves and they described it as a "winged snaked." the scene has dual meanings; 1) Jon is half targ 2) there's an actual dragon underneath winterfell. also in fire and blood mushroom says vermax laid a clutch of eggs in the crypts and winterfell is built on top of hot springs aka volcanic activity where dragons like to reside.
i did explain why the maesters didn't give them moon tea bc they didn't have to if they were poisoning both the targaryens and the dragons. it would cause suspision if suddenly all targaryens were infertile. plus they needed the targs to keep their dragons in check or else they would start killing everyone else for food as is their nature like how drogon did to the girl in Dance.
@@empireofeden4649 yes but that doesn't explain why the maesters didn't give the targs moon tea when the dragons were dead.
Was the king’s guard member who died murdered too?In the hope of adding a Hightower sympathiser to the ranks.Christen Cole worked out well for them🤔
No probably not-ryam redwyne was super old
It just seems suspicious,I’m sure Otto had a major role in choosing which applicants to present for the new position.Even though as you say the death may just have been natural.
I don't think it was actively orchestrated as much as safe calculus. He was very old and due to expire shortly with no intervention, it leaves time to shuffle guards and appointees in their favor. A 'happy' convenience.
Criston Cole wasn't a Hightower loyalist until later though. Had things not gone to shit with Rhaenyra (which the Hightowers had nothing to do with), he'd be a loyal Black, not a Green
Aemma arryns inability to have children could also be from the arryns chance of infertility such as Jon arryn due to inbreeding
I do think that Otto and Mellos were up to something, but I also think the show mentioning humors, and childbirth being so deadly is more of just showing how little medical info really existed, they are basing the shows technology on the middle ages, and most infants didn't survive back then
Yes, I believe the maester is slowly killing him. Sun episode was proof, the helper suggested a salve he had, & the grand maester said no the leeches always give him relief . I also think that clubfoot strong has the green sight how else did he know about the tea??
Edit: I just happened across your channel, love it!! ❤️ 🐉
The maester could have told him about the tea. Hell it couldve been Larys' idea. His own brother saw Rhaenyra and Daemon together that night.
Well just like in medieval Europe leeches were thought of as a pretty good method of treatment. The herbs and the leeches are both rooted in incredulity, and both are not prepared with any kind of medical standard. The herbs seem like the better option to the viewer because we know the leeches are useless, but they could use plants with real effects (just as likely to be accidental as is to be intended. But they could just as well kill him.
To be the idea that Viserys is slowly dying to the throne showcasing his own weakness and deterioration of the realm is far more compelling than poisoning.
I though the same thing….ESPECIALLY after seeing Vyseris notice the rat above the fireplace in the Red Keep.
What are the Maesters most known for in Westeros? Killing all the Dragons with Poison.
13:35
The Crown will change Hands when it changes hands. Nice.
Visery's illness was more symbolic. However, I don't think that Mellos had very good intentions and was plotting with Otto to keep him weak and to have more power and control. Either was he very smart. As Daimon said, "Your weak Viseys".
Look at the scene where Rhaenyra is talking to her mom. The maester is burning some kind of incense. Could be a slow poison.
Maybe there is a connection to the IRON THRONE, perhaps The conqueror knew it should be deadly to sit upon for more than was absolutely necessary; Perhaps Targaryens were meant to be in motion, on Dragon back, maintaining a kingdom through action, rooting out infection with fire, rather than from a chair while infection creeps in and grows to rot its core. Small bits at first but ultimately leaving the sitter half blind to betrayal and barely alive in spirit as well as health. Just saying, seems like bad things happen to those who are pricked by that chair after sitting in it longer than needed.
Maybe someone at court should find out who is “Cleaning” the Throne….. with essence of putrefaction. Causing his many cuts from the throne that is trying to give viserys a hint. I’d bet the man who cleans it is causing it to be dirty, to begin the infection, that the Maester then helps to putrefy, then heal. To prove his worth to Viserys. Jon Security. And he mentions Laena as a way to show Otto, to pay him well or he could twist things another direction. That was Melos’s play for a larger pay day.
i think the cut from the throne is related somehow to getting a form of greyscale. i thought they were out of their depths since they don't have information about it yet, and maybe why he never got the actual scales was because they did keep removing the dead parts constantly.
One thing I noticed that in the first episode the major told the king that you could only save one person during this and so the king figured that the baby would be safe but I noticed the last episode we saw gaming and this guy from penthouse but told Damon that they both would not survive so there made me think that the Masters in a restaurant are working with house high tower
Definitely Picellian in Nature. And one of the conspirators of the grand Master variety! Be Wary of Dastard!
so do you guys think that Otto and Mellos had a part to play in the death of Baelon ?
In the birth scene we see a forceps in a table, so all the master said is a lie, he could use that forceps to sabe the mother, and may be also the child
Joe Magician clearly has a lot of experience Maester baiting
Shit weasel 😂 Reminds me of something Mr Leahy would say on Trailer Park Boys. Rip my dude
Otto got his week butt in there knowing his skill set,heh proper representation for both sides of tha coin
Dark Mellos like Dark Brandon? haha
Viserys was desperate for a male heir. I feel for Aemma because all she did was be transparent. I'm 100% confident that if she hadn't told Viserys that thus would be her last pregnancy, he would not have had the maesters kill her. If he knew he had more chances of her having another baby or at least if she were willing to try, he would have sacrificed the dying baby and tried for another.
I just found your channel this morning. I love your content on GOT/HOD. 1 suggestion could you get a better microphone. I have hearing problems and even turned up with headphones, I still have a difficult time hearing you. Great job though.
Yup! Mostly an editing problem, but something I'm trying to get better at. Thanks for watching!
@@JoeMagician I really love your breakdown of the characters. Keep up the great work. Used to be a Talking Thrones fan, but not anymore. You deserve so many more subscribers.
Sorry for my English, but I wanted to emphasize one point. Even if Otto's plan to impress Viserys with his daughter after his wife's death didn't work, Aemma was long past the age and health status for a new baby boy. Even if the king did not marry Otto's own daughter, he could have a male heir by marrying another young woman. Thus, Daemon's line of succession would have fallen further behind in any case, having to eliminate his male nephews rather than be alone with his only female nephew. The fact that the Masters and Otto deliberately killed Aemma wasn't exactly a gamble, it was Otto's secondary and less important plan to make his daughter queen.
With info given I would say no, he’s not trying to kill him. I agree it’s a combo of his lack of healing skills and viserys repeatedly getting cut and infected on thr throne. BUT there is a maester in FoC suggested that thr maesters ensured the extinction of is the dragons to creat a world ruled by reason and knowledge. Of course we would probably know more if winds of winter was finished
The old doctor play ignorant technique, probably said, "I'm stumped" , remember when the maestar refused the other master's herbs
A few points re this video:
Aemma was dying. She had no more energy to push and her baby was stuck in breach.
The two options were Aemma and Baelon die together, or a C-section gives Baelon a chance to live.
It is a valid choice to allow both to die for the prevention of Aemma's further suffering, but it would be quite slow and painful to die in a failed breech birth, so they'd still end up having to kill her for mercy.
Then they'd be holding the guilt for the death of Aemma and the baby.
My point being that there were no good options once the baby breeched.
Viserys' true sin was insistence on Aemma trying for a baby so many times in succession from a young age.
Also, my interpretation of Mellos acquiescing to the junior maester's cauterisation suggestion, was just that the Grand Maester was overcautious to suggest a painful procedure to the king. He has a high and mighty position to lose, perhaps a more intimate knowledge of the histories; he's aware of what has happened to people who offended Targaryens
Interesting points. I definitely agree with the fact that Viserys was so f**king reckless with his wife's life, insisting she get pregnant again and again and again, knowing how dangerous it is, and knowing how much physical and emotional pain this causes her.
I bet Viserys will die like Aerea. The maggots getting inside him will have changed into some oddity as a result of the Targaryen blood.
Personally, I don't think that'll happen, though it would definitely be interesting!
I'm pretty convinced the Maester was coherced by Otto to ensure Aemma would die in childbirth, and I always found it strange we see the baby looking normal at first, then he is briefly passed to Otto, then a short time later he's dead... Could Otto have done something to the child so that shortly afterwards he passes out ?
Seems like a great strategic move for Otto if the King's Wife and the male heir would die, and it could very well be possible the reason why so many of the king's offspring died during childbirth was due to foul play, especially when you consider only the girls were spared from that fate. Would make alot of sense since Otto seemed to have been plotting to propose his own daughter as marriage , hoping she could produce a male heir and claim the throne for their family all along.
As for the cuts, it's complicated, but I have a feeling foul play might have been at hand also. Maybe someone ensured that some sharp edges of the throne were exposed, and then poured some infectious agent on them to make the cuts fester and spread infection to nearby tissues. Obiviously they would not chose a fast-acting infection, but something that slowly spreads and forces the King to retire / die before his time is up. I doubt Otto , in his ambitiions , would want his family to run in old age, so a way to expedite the transition to a new king and force his hand would make alot of sense. Having a weak , sick king does serve in giving his hand's more power, and it's likely he ordered his maesters to slowly but surely ensure the spread of the infection, perhaps by simply using the wrong methods to cure it or downright innoculating him with more spores though healing procedures or his medicine. In the end, once he had produced male heirs with Otto's dauther, they probably accelerated the decay to get rid of him while they are still relatively young, hoping to usurp the throne, a move which has seemed to be long brewing within the council.
I think the alliance with the Hightowers is a given. But it is THIS fight that turns them against the dragons as a whole. Maybe that'll be the ending; an oath to suppress the magic of the world, starting with the dragons.
I would not blame the show writing putting the Maesters to side with the Hightower.
It seems the showrunners are checklisting Fire and Blood. It seemed Melos only suggested the Velaryon match to sound neutral (maybe Gyldayn added it?)
Regarding the Maesters conspiracy - there may be such, I don't know, there are signs and afterall, but it has to be noticed that this is 200 before Game of Thrones. Of course some things will have been developer over that time.
I believe in the ice and fire books there is a chapter where the masters do recognize being plotting against the dragons and magic, therefore Targaryens as well but if I'm not wrong they only start doing this after the dance of dragons where they see the full danger of them and their beast on the realm.
I thought maybe he was going to suggest the citadel/maester order conspired to slowly poison the dragons to make them smaller and weaker over time. I know that it’s thought that the dragons became weak due to being chained up and prevented from roaming the lands but the conspiracy would be interesting.
if you cant kill them in the open (wether because they have dragons, soldiers, loyal knight) you can kill them in secrecy (poisoning)
In fire and blood its said that the maesters were of the opinion that aemma had been impregnated by viserys too young (13 years old) and it had damaged her body and reproductive capacity, and yet viserys still kept getting her pregnant... so make of that what you will
I think Mellos just sucks, there's no good motive for Mellos or Otto to try and kill Viserys so far, and allowing his wounds to fester could easily kill him since there's no antibiotics.
Emma's death could be deliberate, but if Mellos is incompetent in wound treatment would he be competent at midwifery? Probably not.
I don't really buy into the Maester Conspiracy personally, if only because of the old adage "three can keep a secret if two of them are dead". I do enjoy good-faith discussions of it though.
I CAN believe that on a smaller level Mellos defers/has an alliance with Otto Hightower and that he basically scrapped by on C's during the Citadel's medical classes.
As for Otto...well, as you said there's more reliable ways to kill her. With a family history of both Viserys' and Aemma's mothers having died from childbirth complications and the queen's string of failed pregnancies, there was a decent chance of it happening anyway without him having to risk outright treason.
I think Otto was more taking advantage of an opportunity he'd thought about ahead of time rather than any active scheming to bring about these deaths.
Plus, the general themes point more towards a situation where the mother's life is a far second priority to securing a male heir. As Rhaenyra points out, everyone is more concerned about the baby rather than Aemma herself. Even Viserys, who loves Aemma, kept endangering her life with these pregnancies.
Like I said, that's just my perspective on the issue.
It comes down to this for me with all these maester conspiracies. We've seen in IRL histories where too many miscarriages or dead babies has lead to the executions of midwives and wet nurses so I don't know why any one especially a Grand Maester would want to be remembered as the one over seeing so many dead royal infants or even being the name to cause of a queen and heir's death
I think it’s SuS they haven’t figured out how to do a Cesarean effectively yet! We saw the same thing happen to Laena Velaryon at least 15 years later and in all that time they hadn’t thought to try doing the cut in a diff position (like where it’s done now) so that both mother & baby could be saved?
I get that it’s a more primitive time-there’s no Open-Heart surgeries or antibiotics for all infections, but they have their antidotes, remedies, mixes & herbs….and they of course know to sew up wounds from battle-how many characters have 1 eye, they know how to amputate, they’ve sewn up wounds from sword blades… so it’s not like they’re complete troglodytes when it comes to healing.
Not really. They don’t have a reason (as an institution) to improve childbirth outcomes for women as well as their children. They care more about about the survival of babes, not the ladies. Perhaps small folk midwives have better skills that could be useful in helping ladies survive, but the maesters don’t really have a pressing reason to improve childbirth outcomes for mothers.
thank you, i thought i was the only one who paused between HOT and D... thank you
Otto is Little Finger !
Nah. Larys Strong.
It's possible but as the show went on, it seemed the maester was just incompetent and at the end, the Targaryens did themselves in
Its the Hightowers. Maesters are just their "pets"
And the reason they played it slow in order to not get caught if they got caught it would mean destruction of the order and death to all the maesters
I don't think the infection is they're doing.
Fire and Blood 🔥🔥🐲🐲🐉🐉
Mellos convinced Viserys to kill Aemma on orders of Otto Hightower. Otto has Alicent marry Viserys, to give him male heirs to regain control of Westeros.
@16:53 you say "she is the blood of the dragon she is stronger" is this referring to Queen Aemma? If so, she is not the blood of the dragon, merely a vessel used to create more, she is an Arryn
Her mother is a Targaryen though. That said, health issues have been rather common with Arryns
Since the Hightowers are the reason for the inception of the maesters, it’s clear to who their alliances would lie
I'm use to television shows treating the viewers like morons, I love George rr Martin and this show.
I gotta go with Mellos is just bad at healing but too proud to admit it. Unless we want to get full bore tinfoil hat and say that him and Otto disagreeing is part of the game. Which given that we don't actually know where Mellos comes from and which family he might have originally had loyalty too...I wouldn't totally rule it out, plus we factor in what Archmaester Marwin has to say in just under 200 years and yeah maybe they're in on the downfall of house Targaryen. I mean dragons also need a rider to be an actual asset in battle, but Ocam's razor is kicking in here so I'm leaning towards Mellos sucks at the whole healing thing.
Dude, before modern medicine childbirth was dangerous as hell. You only need to go back like 100-200 years to find that it was very common for men to go through several wives because they would die due to pregnancy complications. Infant mortality was crazy high as well. My point is that speculating on whether the queen died because the maester did something wrong is kinda silly… she’s an inbred frail woman who already had a number of failed pregnancies…her dying in childbirth was not caused by a maester. Also, the “choose between saving the mother and child” scenario is a real thing that happened in history.
Anyone that's ever met an academic can tell you, conspiring is all they spend their time doing.
I don’t think the Targaryens actually have any heat resistance in canon, that’s pretty much only a show thing and only Daenerys that one time with her dragons because it was a magic ritual
George has been clear in interviews that they are tolerant of heat more than the average person but that Dany walking through fire is a miracle. Not a show only thing.
If Daemon was king he would just burn all the maesters and destroy their city, the Targaryen dynasty would last forever
The midwives and other slaves in kings landing look like handmaids im shook
There are no slaves in westeros, you probably meant serfs which is different master - subject relationship
5:34 except you're ignoring the fact aemmas father is an arryn
Are you ignoring the fact she's half-Targaryen on her mother's side?
I believe Mellos is working with Otto & the Measters are secretly trying to tear down the Targaryen house over time. Otto has even said, "There's never been a man who lacks the patience for absolute power" regardless if he was speaking of Daemon in the moment. Just a vibe & gut feeling they're definitely working with the Hightowers to help weaken & tear down the house of the dragon, which takes time & patience.
I must add...I absolutely do not think Otto & Mellos want Viserys dead or gone, especially now or yet. They need Viserys to hold their own positions at court for the time being. They just want Viserys weakened & sick...
& Of course they want there to be division in his own Targaryen family with his daughter & definitely his brother, all that makes it so much easier to manipulate Viserys.
Just a nitpick, but wasn't Aaemma just a Targareyen by marriage, therefore couldn't not stand higher temperatures?
No, her father was an Arryn but her mother was a Targaryen
Only issue with Otto banking on Aemma's death is that he'd have to be certain that Viserys would
1. Actually desire Alicent
2. If so not just bed her as a fling and make a more politically advantageous marriage.
He couldn't guarantee either. This is particularly true of show Viserys.
1. Not hard, we can even see it 😂
2. Viserys’ biggest issue is no legit royal male heirs, he isn’t the type to just create an even bigger problem with more bastards.
He’s declared his daughter heir, the only way this situation remains in his control is having heirs himself if the lords balk at Rhaenerya.
It’s a foregone conclusion tbh.
It’s just that Viserys either doesn’t or can’t openly know that Otto is a shitweasel.