🧙 Why Aegon Targaryen conquered Westeros | House of the Dragon
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- čas přidán 15. 05. 2024
- Theory confirmed! The Targaryens have always been guided by dragons, although not the ones you're thinking of. The massive role of prophecy in the lives of the stars of House of the Dragon from Aegon to Aegon. And how it may be a trap from the Children in the Weirwood thrones to fight the Song of Ice and Fire.
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00:00 Escaping Valyria
05:27 Daenys and the dreamers
08:05 Goofed
15:51 What are dragon dreams?
20:18 Why are dragon dreams?
26:30 Ripples in the dreamscape
30:47 Green seers and glass candles
32:37 The Children's influence
37:06 Free Will is a problem
45:34 The drago-boros
53:39 Escaping destiny
#GameOfThrones #houseofthedragon #hotd #asoiaf - Zábava
Excited to see this play out in the new series! Great job.
Too kind, hopefully they'll explore it more and give some answers. I'd love to hear from another green seer about this.
@@JoeMagician I think we will get tons of references to signs and portents. Our greenseer analog might be Alys rivers... she is a Strong after all ( follows the old gods).
Maybe we'll see it, mayhaps Rhaenyra is reading it under the weirwood tree. That would be amazing.
@@JoeMagician I think if that is what she is reading under the weirwood then the showrunners have got to be hinting pretty hard the two are symbolically tied.
Exactly! The more they tie the Targaryens to the weirwoods, and eventually Aemond especially, I think it'll become more obvious how much the Children have been screwing with the dragon lords for their own purposes.
I hate that they always leave Rhaenyra out of the monarch line
Well Aegon II technically won soooo
@Isuream6331 not really if his line completely died out
@@bina__bunny1098 his line died out, yes, but legally he became king. By making it Aegon III who inherited, and not his daughter, he enshrined the greens inheritance laws. We can see this in how Daena the defiant was skipped over by Viserys II
@@bina__bunny1098 So the dance balances out to a draw
@@Isuream6331 he won the battle, but not the war. The Blacks won in the end.
Daenys got it right at least, either she go the one unambiguous dream or she was really good at dream interpretation.
Imagine if it was just like, a dream of a Valyrian barbecue and Daenys went "Oh god, we're all gonna die"
And, somehow, despite her trying to interpret it/getting it right, it seems to have not harmed her interests. That too is unique and perhaps even more surprising.
@@curtiswfranks It's such an outlier that there's a fan theory that the Targaryens only pretended they fled because of a prophecy but they actually had knowledge about a plot to destroy Valyria by the faceless men or they were even actively involved.
@@c.w.8200 It would make more sense than Daenys being smarter than everyone else ever
I never knew George was interested in free will and determinism. This is a very interesting take that Bran’s dream of spring is the one that can break through the deterministic nature of event. Maybe the long night or night that never ends is inevitable but Bran somehow make a break through!
Best Joe magician theory and video to this day!
I hope so!
I always thought Raeghar's bookish youth and songs and after "reading" an unknown scroll suddenly decided that he needed to be trained as a warrior, was all due to dreams. Summerhall where he was born and a place to which he kept going back.
It's very possible, I think it works either way. Reading about prophecies or having them himself or both.
@@JoeMagician maybe not a scroll...maybe he dropped the notorious valerian dagger in some fire and discovered the Prophecy?? 🤔
Awesome that this is being confirmed. Ever since I heard you guys mention about other kings having dreams like Baelor the Blessed I’ve come to think that all the Targ kings reacted in their own way to the dreams.
Like Aegon IV’s debauchery as a nihilistic answer as he may have felt there was no hope for the future without dragons
We may have seen a frustration of prophecy: maybe the Stallion who Rides the World would have, but Daenerys chose otherwise. Perhaps Bran could have chosen otherwise, died when the door was breached, and he other POVs would include no Hodor or one with a larger vocabulary. Even seers might have always seen history the way it happened this past time around. If time is a river, you can change it downstream with a dam.
Sigh. As usual someone else had my clever idea first.
Well, there is no shame in thinking like Fritz Lieber!
So basically, they see possible futures, and whether it happens or not depends on their choices and the situation?.
Bro I’ve been listening to all your content non stop through CZcams/podcast non stop for about a month now.
Just wanted you to know you’re the man!
Maybe green seers planting dragon dreams in minds of Tyrgeriens are these boulders. Maybe the original fate of Westeros and the whole world of ASOIaF was to get destroyed by a Long Night, and those dreams are the desperate way to change it. Like in Days of Future Past, sending Wolverine back in time was a desperate move.
Could be the 3 eyed raven sending dreams to past warning about the future
I have always wondered about Targaryen dreams. The word "dream" is often used to describe visions that appear to us when we sleep, and that is how most people interpret the idea of the Targaryen dreams. But the other usage for dream is a vision of the future, like when Martin Luther King Jr gave his "I Have a Dream" speech. It was partly a vision of the future, but also something he acted upon to set in motion.
It is heavily hinted at in the books that the Faceless Men played a part in the downfall of Valyria. Daenys' dream is usually interpreted as a vision of doom, and that the Targaryen's luckily escaped with their lives. But what if her dream was more of a conscious vision? That she could picture a world without the evils of the Valyrian freehold, and wanted to actively bring it down? Perhaps her pleas weren't warnings, but threats. I really like the idea that Aenar and Daenys' worked with the Faceless Men to bring down Valyria. This would add a wonderful layer of depth to Daenarys' storyline as well, as much of her story is the liberation of enslaved peoples by empowering and working with the slaves. In a story called "A Song of Ice and Fire", which is known for its grey characters, I find it very hard to accept that the Targaryen's are the solution to the Night King. It seems more sensible that they are equivalent to one another. I mean, it is technically Jon and Dany's fault for the destruction of the wall. Their scheme to go over the wall, in the attempt to unite the realm and defeat the Night King, inevitably helps him. Their "uniting the realm to save it" feels a lot like the windmill being built in Animal Farm.
Maybe there is really no discernable difference between these two definitions, but I can't help but get caught up on it. It seems to be the only theory that makes Arya killing the Night King a satisfactory conclusion. The Faceless Men serve death, and death came for the fiery slavery of Valyria, and the frozen slavery of the Night King. No one can defeat the Night King.
I've always been fascinated with beyond the wall, one creature mentioned being the ice dragons that supposedly live in the ICU waters. However you'd think if those actually existed the Night King would have figured out a way to add them to his crew, right? Sure, taking down one of Danys dragons was probably easier but wouldn't some giant dead ice creatures like dragons, bears, wolves, mammoth and huge spiders make for a pretty awesome army?
I didn't mean to mock or belittle your comment in any way. I know mine seems very juvenile in comparison but you bringing up the Night King getting one of her dragons made me think of this.
Maybe it was a budget issue but I think this would have been something the Night King would have actually done in his quest for a forever night. We saw it with the bear and Danys dragon so it's definitely possible for animals to turn.
I am slow, but I just realized that it is possible that the symbolism which Rhaegar saw in his dream and which he interpreted as referring to his son could actually be about Faegon, who is standing for that son but probably is not him. My money is still on Jon and then Dany being the hero/savior figures, but Faegon is a good candidate for the third head.
I think Dany and Jon will be analogous to Rhaenyra and Daemon, or the Amethyst Empress and Bloodstone Emperor. And Faegon will be the Aemond to Jon's Daemon. And Jon probably has to sacrifice his Amethyst Empress at some point to do whatever
Faegon is a blackfyre but as we all know black or red a dragon is a dragon.
So funny because at one time we heard ppl saying that maybe tyrian was a targaryen because he was able to get close, touch and free the dragons from the chains lol. So many different theories
@@havenly6133 i have a brief thought that Jaime and Cersei are Aerys children, but Tyrion is 100% Tywins.
Im sure it doesnt hold up to any scrutiny, but its nice to imagine.
I think Jon and Dany should have a kid it be the chosen one
One option for accurate dreams: Jojen. Who may well have known exactly what he was giving and following through heroically.
This was in response to people knowing or being able to change: Jojen, at least according to his sister, knew what was coming and accepted it. Like Bran’s with Hodor, for more many grueling months rather than just at the last second,
This is interesting because it paints a Completely different view of Aegon I. He wasn't motivated by Conquest. He was Motivated to save the Realms of Men against the Army of the Dead. Instead of this Ruthless, Selfish, Power Hungry Conquerer that has been painted of Aegon I. The truth is that he cared about the People of Westeros.
Remarkable
It's not just a boulder that stops the river, but Winter.
I think the whole time flow thing is like watching live TV a day late. At air time, the person threatening something on the ledge of a window still has a choice. When we watch it a day later, we know that they decided not to jump. It doesn't make their choice in the moment any less important or compelling. Knowing the endpoint of the journey doesn't affect impact of the day's travel.
I was asking some questions about dragon dreams in the Radio Westeros live chat and was kindly recommended this channel! Thanks for this great content and interesting insights! It answered some of my questions and echoed some of my theories. Keep 'em coming!
Just wanna say najic man I have missed you doing breakdowns like this elegant and comforting making you think in a relaxing vibe your style does my man Thank you for your time Matt.
Wow, what a great synopsis!!! I feel like Joe is so close to understanding the nature of Westerosi reality... I had fun listening to this, ty Joe!
Glad you enjoyed it!
It's all connected, Aegon conquering Westeros and the vision he had of the long night to me
After finally watching and reading Dune I can't unsee how much Azor Ahai prophesies and the self-fulfilling quality of it feels like Bene Gesserit trying to breed Kwisatz Haderach.
Both also have some weird-ass name for the chosen one xdd
thanks for the great content joe! really enjoyed your Strong streams. looking forward to your break down and analysis of Hotd. Alyssa is a Strong, still waiting for this video Joe.
much like prophecy, the words of GRRM are like a sword without a hilt….
Some day the winds of winter are just around the corner
Your videos are fantastic! I enjoy them immensely and you give me quite a bit to think about. Thank you!
The ending of this video just blew my mind! Great stuff!
That doctor who reference made my day 🤣
Lol. Love the intro!!
Really good Joe.
your work in this video is great
My solution to determinism and freedoms is that birth are real at their respective levels. Everything is determined, nothing can change, but we don’t know what’s going to happen, so it feels as if we are free… and is there really any difference between being free and feeling free? What if freedom has always been just determinism playing out from the perspective of an agent that feels free because he doesn’t know what’s going to happen. Then the real ultimate message of the story is twofold: only because we are determined, doesn’t changes the fact that we feel free and thus we always have to act as if we are free, and accepting that everything is determined can help us accept fate and thus, become one with the Will fate: basically the amor fati of the stoics and Nietzsche.
This was Great🙌⚡❗
I have never heard this theory and I thought after quarantine I had... I FREAKING love it. You almost broke my damn brain. I mean... I would hate it, lol.. but it's good.
-Aegon conquering the seven kingdoms because "we need westeros united if we want to stand a chance"
-The TV show (depleted) North defeating the night king without any of the southern kingdoms but the Vale.
It was great! I almost wish I didn’t know what was going to happen. More exciting that way
well that got existentially deep at the end 😂
It's my thing
Almost any of the targaryens would make for a great series...there is so much storytelling...id love to see aegons conquest...the reign of maegar the cruel and his war with the faith...the 1st blackfyre rebellion and events leading to it like with the dance in house of the dragon...the mad kings decent into madness would be decent...roberts rebellion though GOT told a ton about it...i would watch any of those...i would also like an old valyria show...mayne set just prior to and ending with the doom and the targaryens moving to dragonstone....above all i wanna see an age of heroes type show set mainly in the north with more about the white walkers!!! GOT dropped the ball so badly we deserve something to inform us about the white walkers...
Why would the Green seers want the dance of the dragons if they need them to the fight the white walker? Why not do things to keep dragons around?
Is Bran the actual evil to be stopped? He made sure that daenys and Jon didnt get together and sent him away... He wasnt worried about the walkers by the end...
Holy Balerion! This is some deep thought.
Apologies if I sounded too excited and not quite smart at the same time. Pretty cool 😎 how I even found this here with you at 1236 pm on a Wednesday 😀
Aegon: "Targaryen dreams are not like the dreams of others. Our dreams come to pass. I dreamt of a long-night that would last a generation--actually, no, it only last like a couple days and only affected Winterfell. That winter it turns out only lasts like a couple months also, making it the shortest winter in history. But many people die...maybe? I'm not sure. All the lords have plot armor and I thought the dothraki died but they were all magically back again in my dream. Anyway, a little girl shanks the bad guy and then Westeros becomes a Democracy. I guess the dream wasn't that bad after all".
🤣🤣🤣. Nice!
Jon never had his dreams in the show unfortunately. It would have been cool to see on screen.
Lol
Think of how broken Bran is. Like for real. He can meet someone and basically go back and see everything they've ever done. And can never be lied too.
Exactly 🤣
He sees all the people on the toilets and farting, especially his sisters and Daenerys and the Night King.
Haelena also has psychic visions, she has been rambling about shxt that happens or is going to happen too. She does it in PATQ aka Fire and Blood. Also the Targs dropped the ball. They shouldve went beyond the wall and kept observing. But they didnt even bother lol.
I love this analysis so much!
It did for me what Robert's (of In Deep Geek fame) did regarding the final fate of Gollum and the Ring. So insightful. So clever. Yet so complete.
It makes so much sense that all of what is happening is only consequential to physical laws of the universe. It's deterministic. It's closed on itself. That is much more “realistic” model than multiple timelines and other time-traversing crap. Everything happened. The trees would know. But we don't. We are carried by the stream and THAT gives us the FREE WILL. If we knew, we would be just playing roles. But we do not know and THAT makes our choices MATTER (for us anyway). The Greenseers… well, they must be so bored (kinda like Dr. Manhattan I guess) by their own schemes.
There aren't many loose ends remaining now and I feel so very satisfied with this in-world explanation. Subscribing to your Patreon immediately!
Great, video! Also, great statement about spoiler and how others have been spreading the word! APPRECIATE your manner of handling subjects like this! PS, Beverly Hillbillies was to good!!!!
My pleasure! Some unscrupulous behavior out there.
Based in the story, here's what i think their whole time travel schtick is. I think that whatever Their present/future if viewed from the past is unchangeable. Whatever change they tried to do in the past was always meant to happen
That was so entertaining! Thanks, Joe.
Glad you enjoyed it!
This would explain why Theon Greyjoy dreams the way he does.
I always thought that determinism vs. free will was a false dichotomy. We feel like we can do whatsoever we want because we can. But that happens to be exactly what the universe computed for us all along. In a deterministic universe, an experiment will always achieve the same outcome if it is set up the same way. So, if every single particle in the local universe is in the same state as you rerun the experiment of offering me a chocolate bar, then my brain will always make the same choice. Internally, it feels like my brain weighing the pros and cons - and it is. But externally, the calculations will always amount to the same thing. The two are not exclusive of one another but in fact the same thing, interwoven aspects of the other. My free will to choose is how the universe computes the future for myself and the chocolate bar, and that computation will always come out the same way.
P.S.: Quantum mechanics throws a wrench into this interpretation because it is non-deterministic, but that is a matter for a different essay.
So I did consider going down this path, I know it's a real problem in physics that has years of debate. But George stayed on the level that he did in his quotes, making it more granular and not really touching anything about science theory. Making it more philosophical and magical y'know, plus the video was so long already. You're right though, the arrow of time continues to befuddle physicists.
I have always thought of this like a musical scale. The notes you are allowed to play are predetermined, but there are so many possible combinations of notes that you can create completely different results over and over by making the most minute alterations. Endless possibilities out of a finite number of notes. Kinda like Tolkien's creation myth where the themes of the song are set by God but the very creation of those themes are due to the free will of the singers.
@@HariKrishnan-kx1is: But the singers are not independent of the notes in your analogy. In fact, the singers are made from them. :)
Taken to the logical conclusion, this theory would suggest the children of the forest caused the doom of Valyria too. They did show dragon dreams to Daenys after all. I think it's just a bridge too far to think of the CotF as so powerful as to be effectively controlling the fate of the whole ream when they couldn't even defend themselves against the first men really. Why should the CotF play this very long game involving the destruction of dragons (good weapons against their wayward creation in the white walker) instead of just having the Targaryens thrive for a bit then give them dragon dreams to go melt any being made of ice up north? Even if you think that they had to cause a big mayhem to change the world, then that would suggest that there was a worse timeline and getting the dance of the dragons underway was how the CotF changed timelines to a more acceptable one. That is interesting (as is the theory you present) but still seems too much of a reach.
"If you pull it off, you can ride the Humonga Donga" - life advice by Joe Magician
Nice vid🤧😤
Thank you !
What if the vision that Aegon had to make him conquer all of Westeros , was made by the children of the forest to save them from the others.
This is all thanks to the children of the forest.
I really enjoyed this video. Unlike others, it's truly indepth & gets the listener to parallel the fictional to the world in which we live. I would like to think that's what this series of books are truly constructed to do, to make us wake up & think. The story of the river & the use of a boulder in order to change the rivers' course is what this society needs to consider greatly. For all the rocks we've used have done little to nothing to alter the powers that be from slowly destroying us all.
Absolutely spot on. This “fictional” story has a lot more non-fiction in it than the general person would believe!
@@mayasoley4847 so true, I know that's why I enjoy it so much. I've studied European history/royalty & I must admit there are way too many similarities.
0:39 lol you're so silly!! 🤣😁😍
7:05 and, yes, I do enjoy some HOT D whenever I can get my hands on it!
(I'm sorry for that)
"Immune to incest"
Couldn't the children just go back and stop themselves from making the white walkers
See? I KNEW that he wasn't trolling. 😂 because it sounded like he let it slip on accident and then recovered.
Anyway tho imo they all have dragon dreams, just to different extents. I also think most or all of the starks were wargs, but didn't know it bc of the lack of dire wolves - just like the targs lacked dragons.
And you kind of have to wonder, did writing them down help Daenys deal with them? It seems that those who simply convey or record their prophecy have an easier time mentally than those who don't or who try to interpret them.
Ok now that I'm done...I like the discussion of the river at the end. I think it's a good idea. I think, though, that there has to be some legitimacy to the dreams. Reason being, if it was only the children or the glass candles, then why are the dreams exclusive to Valyrians (as far as we know.)? Or, obviously, those with the blood of the first men. It seems that there are restrictions on who can be contacted, otherwise everyone would have prophetic dreams and it would just be part of how westeros works. Possibly the red priests learn to tap into these visions using study and tools to do what the targaryens do naturally. I think it's probably that the connection to fire magic makes them a window into something men were never meant to see. Whatever it is that makes them able to control dragons also comes with the cost of seeing as a God does.
As to why they would be unique to the Valyrians, I don't think they are. Maybe that's just how they are presented to them to make them more believable, like valyrians know they dream of dragons so that's what gets sent to them. When you read a green dream or a dragon dream or shade of the evening visions, they all read exactly the same you know. It's just how the information is delivered that changes, where green dreams use nature imagery, dragon dreams use dragons, and sote uses eldritch horror. Same mechanic, different packaging. I don't think all are just manipulations, although I think it's probably a lot higher than many think. The children seem so hellbent on capturing and using dragons, literal or metaphorical, I think it's a good idea to use a high degree of skepticism towards those dreams. Same for the followers of R'hllor, I don't know what those are but shouldn't be ignored how they could be faked. It's kinda like if you went into a store and you saw on either side shops that claim to be able to fake goods sold inside the store. Even if they aren't all counterfeits, you'd be right to be highly skeptical.
What's wrong with the universe being deterministic?
I think it's a beautiful irony that a world shaped by the choices of so many dynamic characters - is actually part of a grand play, with everyone playing their part, whether they realise it or not.
Every single time I get a resentment over Martin not finishing books he probably won't, I realize the complexity, layers upon layers, of this world that seems like it had to happen. I mean one man spawned this world millions of people are glued to. Just astonishing feat of one man. Hats of to this guy for doing this. I'm sure he has pointers for the ghost writers to fill in the details. He hand picks who does what and I'm hoping someone learned the lesson to season 8. Wish that was erased from existence. Kind of how WWE erased Chris Benoit.
For me I always think about the fact that Bran is Blood Raven now, they have merged, so its not only Bran looking back at the dance of dragons but Blood Raven as well
I think about this concept of the time a lot. This concept of time does not, in my opinion, negate the idea of choice. The way Martin describes it is our reality. There is a dimension of time that we only experience and cannot interact with. Theoretical physics says its possible to have access to another dimension and it could possibly be time. Martin has described it well as the acorn and the oak, and you certainly convey that.
They way I look at it is that is true. Since the dimension exists, and we know it exists in one direction, why not both? But this only states that all events in the future already exist and not that you have no choice in making them happen. You are involved in shaping your future events right now. When I think about the idea that the event exists it doesn't make me think I don't have a choice; it makes me think that me, and everyone around me are always going to make the the same choices to get us in the next event.
It doesn't matter that someone may see Jon Snow do something dumb and noble and be like "Jon's going to run off and turn around." Its still completely in character. They are acting in character making choices and those interactions shape the events, I think its actually the same with us. Some people can just see them in the story, there's no way of changing it because people always do the same thing. Consistent choices that are crafted by your past, so in a sense, as your past builds your future choices are being crafted and determined.
Meagor likely knew. It's highly likely Visenya knew - Aegon would have sought his sorcerer/warrior sister's counsel in interpreting his dream and she would have slipped it to Maegor when she deemed Aerys weak. Also highly likely he could read Valyarian and blasted daggers with fire.
I think it would be more interesting to think of it in terms of, instead of no free will, that instead time is always in flux. Like, your current reality is shaped by the decisions you and others make, but those decisions impact your present and past simultaneously. For example, if Bran hadn't warged into Hodor in the future he would have grown up without Hodor as Hodor, but once he does make that choice in the present the consequences become present within the entire timeline. Like, you wouldn't notice a change if you did make a different choice because within your current reality you always made that choice but only within that current present. A multiverse can still exist it's just not something explicitly experienced.
JEREMY BRETT "SHERLOCK HOLMES" , I ALWAYS SAW HIM AS THE DEFINITIVE HOLMES.
9:56 - "need to unite every single human against mythical threat" - somewhere on the Golden Throne, another Emperor psychially nods in understanding....
For my reference. I am restricting to known descendants of Aenar Targaryen (plus Jon). This compilation was last edited on 2022-08-27 and probably will change over time.
Targs who have been confirmed to have dragon dreams:
• Daenys the Dreamer
• Aegon I (canon but not obvious in the books)
• Viserys I (show only)
• Daeron the Drunken
• Daemon II Blackfyre
• Dany
Other very likely candidates (almost confirmed by text):
• Bloodraven (obviously magical and probably prophetic; not clear that it is even partially by dragon dream, if that is distinct from other forms of magic)
• Aerion
• Maester Aemon
• Aegon V
• Jon
Other people whom I deem fairly likely to have had dragon dreams (hints exist or we can explain their strange actions/beliefs well via dragon dreams):
• Daeron I
• Baelor the Blessed
• Possibly Aegon IV
• Shiera Seastar
• Possibly Bittersteel or Daemon I Blackfyre
• Aerys II
Others whom it would be more of a stretch but would not be totally unjustified to believe had dragon dreams:
• Aenys I
• Maegor I
• Queen Alysanne
• Aemond
• Aegon III
• Duncan Targaryen
• Robert
• Stannis (or he might have one in the future)
• Shireen
• Someone associated with Young Griff/Faegon (if he is a Targ/Blackfyre).
• Viserys (Dany's brother)
People who knew about a then-yet-to-be-actualized prophecy (at least almost-confirmed or strongly hinted) regardless of whether they ever dreamed it themselves, excluding confirmed dreamers:
• Rhaenys (probable)
• Visenya (probable)
• Probably at least one of Aegon's children or grandchildren (presumed)
• Jaehaerys I (presumed)
• Queen Alysanne (probable)
• Rhaenyra daughter of Viserys I (confirmed in show only)
• Baelor the Blessed (probable because he knew about the contents of certain books)
• Bloodraven (see supra)
• Aerys I
• Aegon V (probable but less so than the others on this list)
• Maester Aemon (essentially confirmed)
• Rhaegar (essentially confirmed - as good as it gets without seeing it happen)
We may also need to add Addam Velaryon to this list, but he is not a confirmed Targ.
Major update (2022-11-10):
Very close to being confirmed prophetic:
• Helaena (show-only; we technically do not know it to be dragon dreams, but it is something magical; technically not explicitly confirmed but I cannot imagine it being more explicit at this point in the story without breaking the fourth wall).
Confirmed to know about the existence (but not the contents) of a prophecy which has not yet been actualized:
• Daemon (the SoIaF prophecy; possibly others, given his interest in Valyrian culture and history).
Rhaenyra's children do not yet know of any prophecy to our knowledge, but there will be another Ice and Fire reference coming with one of them, which is curious.
Okay, this is definitely my own viewpoint speaking, but I find a story where prophecy and free will can co-exist MUCH more interesting. Because the weight of the character's decisions become much less interesting if everything's been pre-determined.
I'll use Shakespeare's MacBeth as an example. I remember seeing a joke comic about how after hearing the witch's prophecy that MacBeth will be king but Banquo will be the father of kings, Banquo says "oh cool, our kids are going to get married." Another joke comic had MacBeth decide to not murder King Duncan, but after Duncan's sons die by hilarious mishap he becomes king by default. While these are both obviously jokes, they touch on a larger point: the witches can give MacBeth a prophecy, but how the prophecy unfolds exactly comes down to people's choices.
I always confuse Bridge4 with Joe Magician, despite having been a subscriber of both for years. The good thing is it’s a compliment to you both
So now, there has to be a Targ on the Iron Throne, *and* a Stark in Winterfell?
Maybe the Starks passed the message down from Lord to heir over the generations as well. The message might have been lost when the Mad King roasted Ned’s father
The books emphasize why there needs to be a Stark in Winterfell
@@paulywick They don't though, do they? I mean, everybody says "There needs to be a Stark in Winterfell" but nobody knows why. Same as everyone has said from book one that "The North remembers" but no-one can actually specify what that means. Maybe the North forgot what they're supposed to remember, so when they're asked, they just say "th' Naawf memembas" *in Neddish*
@@nodiggity9472 neddish 😂
There are some characters which seem to have prophetic knowledge independent of dragon dreams and possibly the Old Gods. All of these can be shoehorned into a theory that all visions are from the same source and that source is Bran (or whatever), but it will take extra explanation. These include Patchface, Melisandre, and Maggy the Frog; the House of the Undying taps into the dreamscape too, it seems. I do not think that you necessarily hold the claim that all prophecy is unified and handed out by a single entity/intelligence, unless that intelligence really be a deity, but I just want to inject some extra considerations for anyone who might propose the idea and run with it.
Also, while you are listing people who have glass candles, you skip one of the likely but not confirmed candidates: the Hightowers. Given their history, location, and habits, I believe that the probability that person x has a glass candle is greater for them than it is for most other characters. Moreover, they are yet another family which may have connections with prophetic magic, regardless of whether they have a glass candle, such that the magic is not obviously from dragon dream, Old Gods, or glass candles (even if they have one - it might be supplementing their innate abilities). So, not only could they be handing out dreams, but they may be receiving them too. I am not saying that any of this is true or the best candidate explanation for anything, but we should also keep them in mind when considering such matters. I will also note that if the Hightowers do have magic, then that could be derived either from their heritage, which does have Targ connections, or from the fact that they have a glass candle (if they do).
The history of the kingdom is way more interesting then being queen.
Why would the children want the dance of dragons to happen bc then they lose their dragon arsenal. Also, the children were, why would they keep the faith of the seven? Just send the high septon dreams.
Please tell me that Martin wrote a prequel to hot D!! I wanna know more about Old Valeria!!
I want more Valerian Houses! Who was the head(s)?
Yey......... Witt and wisdom here we go.....Spoil us ☺️
Always!
I loled at your user name. Do you happen to have a companion called Nighteyes Ghost? 😄
@@vidarfe I wish I did 🤣.......but I was foolish and temporally I am wit bonded to a Cat called Snailbutt Ninestein...... long story....😸🫣.........
So I’d rather the dragon dreams be visions sent from this universe’s gods or nature itself. I do not want it to be some grand scheme from the children. I think you look at the dreams as a higher power guiding the characters to the “right” outcome. An outcome where they win. I also think they greenseers looking back into the past to “change” things is not 100% set in stone either. I think some events can be self fulfilling (Hodor) but I think others will be irrelevant or ambiguous (if Ned really heard Bran). I’ve always seen the old god or ice magic to be the opposite of the red god or fire magic. And I think that’s mirrored in their abilities to perceive time. The greenseers have the ability to look back, see and possibly change time. But their changes are never pivotal to the timeline. They can’t destroy the past and ruin the timeline their in currently. The have knowledge but no REAL power over time. The dragon dreams or fire visions are ambiguous but show you the future not the past. This means they seers lack context and knowledge of what their seeing but because it hasn’t happened they have all the power to change it. 2 similar powers but polar opposites at the same time. I don’t think the targs seeing visions of dragons reborn was Danny every time, I think they were seeing possible futures for themselves or others but never made the necessary steps until Danny because they lacked knowledge or the right situation to make it happen
Something I just considered, we have to consider the characters that have both Greensight and Dragondreams such as Bloodraven or Jon Snow. They would theoretically have the ability to see the future and the past
I can't believe they killed off Stannis like a betch. I've grown to absolutely adore him. He's so fascinating
My daughter told me that Arya could have been born of Salt and Smoke. Salt comes from the ocean and runs into some rivers, her mother was from the river lands and smoke from the fires always burned to keep people warm during the harsh winters of the North... This kid has a point and now making me have conspiracy theories to the whole Arya thing dang!
No she is not AA the princess /prince was promised. It’s Jon or DAny. song of ice and fire is about DAny and the others. She will beat them with the help of Jon and maybe bran bring summer that never ends.
Great that she is getting into theorizing. But by that explamation almost everyone could fit the profecy. Although what can I say, it was Arya who killed the night's king in the show
Not a chance
It's born admist salt and smoke, not born of.
Hey 👋
Yes please 🙏 some spoilers . Only bcuz I've not read the books and spent time with you guys 😀
Anyone consider it could be the 3 eyed raven sending messages in dreams to past warning about future eventually resulting in bran the broken?
Do we think that dragon dreams were common in other Valyrians, or even other Targs, prior to the Doom?
I assume that there had to be some reason to believe Daenys.
I assume so, Bloodraven says in the Mystery Knight many had them before coming to Westeros.
Being A prince with A dragon has got to STROKE the ego.
I think the best way to reconcile the timeline with free will is that every single person is making choices with free will; they weave their own future, but that the cloth is unchanged once weaved. Green seers can see the weaving, not that those choices had to be made. Bran still made the choice to unintentionally harm Hodor, even if that choice was made before we ever knew it.
great and unexpected!!!
"Some would be inspired, some would run away, and some would go mad" is this a doctor who quote?
Okay the question I've always had. What part of history did George pull this from...the prophecy dreams, intuitive conscience, and then pushed it forward . My only question. Hey Matt did you get a chance to talk with smokescreen?? Y'all may make a good pair 4 aftershow with hotd 😀😎
Ancient Greek history has prophecy and portents all throughout it, as well as Roman history as well (like Julius Caesar getting a portent about the Ides of March), George takes the concept and runs with it.
Like someone said history is full of prophecies and dreams. Literally the biggest historical event/story… the Bible and rise of Christianity is filled with them. He also probably got the prophecy aspect of his story by subconsciously borrowing it from other fantasy novels.
Do the Baratheons ever demonstrate dragon dreams?
Twitter informs me that Shireen may have them
Stories are... deterministic? Oh god, who'd have thought?
For a video that so well and plainly lays out a pretty good theory, though, that's my biggest criticism. Great stuff.
Interesting that the weirwood's eyes are closed.
Maybe we are to view the show from the perspective of a green-seer. If you've read the books (I haven't) then you basically know what events are going to happen so in a way you're seeing time in their world as a circle.
I like to think like this. Options:
1) Free will exists
a) You live your life as if it exists.
b) You live your live as if it doesn't exist.
2) Free will doesn't exist
a) You live your life as if it exists.
b) You live your live as if it doesn't exist.
I choose to believe in 1 and choose path a. Why? Because IF it exists then I actually use my free will.
In case that it doesn't exist then one might say that I wasted my life thinking it does exist BUT in that case I didn't have a free will to choose not to believe in it, did I :p
Time traveling Bran is the cause of the dreams!
Belichick has only won 6 Super Bowls despite losing to the Giants, so I think he’s ok.
As a Patriots fan I agree
Where can i find those comics you use in the video?
The Hedge Knight amzn.to/3DwD5oO
The Mystery Knight amzn.to/3NAikNy
Honestly, I would still be interested in your reasoning before confirmation. So, if you ever want to waste an inordinate amount of time trying to prove something which be said outright, then I would be a happy audience. And, frankly, it might be helpful to the fandom in piecing together things which we may miss even with the answer under our noses.
Btw, I am giving you credit for getting this one right. Bad luck with getting scooped via cheat codes, but this still gets tallied in your 'wins' column.
Wait, I don't think this universe has to be deterministic. Characters can have free choice but for the seers looking back in the past they see only the results of those decisions. I guess the analogy i'd use is time is a river always flowing forward but the decisions of people are the sides which guide the river, a big decision made will change the course of history thus a river will make a turn. I'd guess multiple decisions are possible and because people chose to listen to the dreams they made the decisions that changed history. that however does not explain how bran was able to make Hodor simple, i guess magic can transend time.
No one is gonna say it.....you used Starship Troopers in the thumbnail!😁😁😁😁😁😁😁 I'd like to see Starship Troopers content but it's unlikely
Haha yup, borrowed the image where it's NPH in front of a bug in captivity. Thought it would make for a good thumbnail
If Starks have the wolf prophetic dreams why can't Targs have similar dragon prophetic dreams? Doesn't need to be this complicated. Does Helaena have crazy dreams and wake up gasping every night? She seems to have a scary specific recall of her prophetic dreams. And hers are scary specific.
Doesn't feel like runaway young, passionate love would have been adequate for Lyanna to go along with it all and do what they did - knowing what would happen and doing it still (Lyanna would have known Robert would freak tf out), so Rhaegar divulging this dream thing makes more sense in that context, especially when she became preggo.