How Heckler & Koch transformed unreliable L85A1 assault rifle into a battle-winner
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- čas přidán 29. 04. 2024
- A firing pin with a tip that tended to break off, a system that failed to fully extract and eject a spent cartridge case, causing a stoppage, a poorly designed magazine release catch that could cause a mag to fall to the ground unintentionally and a butt pad that broke apart.
These were just some of the problems with the L85A1, the UK's then-new assault rifle.
Jonathan Ferguson, keeper of firearms at the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds, explains how Heckler & Koch's comprehensive changes transformed the rifle into the A2 variant - which would go on to prove itself a true battle-winner.
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Its always nice to see Jonathan Ferguson, the Keeper of Firearms and Artillery at the Royal Armoury Museums in the UK, which houses a collection of thousands of iconic weapons from throughout history.
The nerds nerd [JF].
Oh that's who it is
Jonathan Ferguson, the Keeper of Firearms and Artillery at the Royal Armoury Museums in the UK, which houses a collection of thousands of iconic weaponry from throughout history. makes every video he is in better imo
does he always wear all black? is it a job requirement?!
You really had to spill out his full legal name on this one
AK-47s jam when exposed to mud'
M-16s jam when exposed to ice'
L85A1s jam when exposed to ammunition.
I think I've seen this comment about 50 times
@@Echo-01 for good reason
don't pretend the M16's didnt have a rough start too
@@officialusmanqureshithat was due to an ammunition change after testing was completed.
@@cannonfodder4812 potatoes potatoes
For those of you unaware, this is Jonathan Ferguson, the Keeper of Firearms and Artillery at the Royal Armoury Museums in the UK. This is not, in fact, Ian McCollum at Forgotten Weapons, who's here at Rock Island Auction. Rather, it's Jonathan Ferguson, the Keeper of Firearms and Artillery at the Royal Armoury Museums in the UK, which houses a collection of thousands of iconic weaponry from throughout history.
We are aware who gun Jesus is. Stop touting for viewers lofty!
@@Stu1664RMgunner Sugden..
Royal Marines, hit the beach! “Naughty beach, naughty beach”
The old ones are the best
@@Stu1664RM i Know right? i have eyes and i can tell the difference.
Kuzko?
No way!! Let's orgy!
My A2 had 3 stoppeges in the 10 years i had her and 2 were with blank rounds she was a great bit of kit once issued with the LUD
A2 update did it's job, glad she served you well.
I suspect it would probably be due to the lower amount of charge in blank rounds. Mine never jammed with a live round in it, thankfully.
Tell me you had the same rifle for 10 years! I do not believe you!! lol but I get what you mean.
@@5732noel I was only in for 4 years but never had an issue with it.
Beggars belief that this rifle wasn't exhaustively tested in all environments before letting British troops entrust their lives to it.
Same with the M16 when that was sent into Vietnam. Had terrible problems. Soldiers were cleaning them during firefights. In fact the M16 cost a lot of soldiers their lives during the war due to failure. Some soldiers ended up using captured AK47s as they just worked.
It was tested, and failed badly in many departments. So they changed the test criteria to get it to pass. Gun Jesus's channel goes into some detail about the shenanigans that went on during testing. It flat out failed testing and should have been rejected, or else what's the point of testing? Politics were involved.
i came here to say the same thing! pretty shocking project management!!
well it seems that the trial versions were produced to a much higher quality than the regular issue ones.
and that the trials were basicly only focussed on european conditions and already there in troop trials major flaws and issues arose.
still the issuing of the rifles continued and troops were send into active warzones several times (Kuwait, Irak, Sierra Leone etc) where the rifles failed and the units quickly used replacements (old service L1A1´s aka FAL).
the Issues were known before 1990/1991, as they already arose in troop trials from 85-88.
The M16 worked just fine in Vietnam until the Army changed the 5.56 powder from extruded IMR powder to spherical ball powder. Changed the burn rate & increased port pressure.
It was the ammo, not the gun, that was the problem.
Ahahah no way, is that Jonathan Ferguson, the Keeper of Firearms and Artillery at the Royal Armoury Museums in the UK, which houses a collection of thousands of iconic weapons from throughout history.
I shot at camp lejuene in the states against the US marines in 1995. I swapped a t-shirt for 8 Colt magazines and I never had a mag stoppage in the next 6 years of shooting at Bisley.
This is a certified Firearm Malfunction Probability classic
I went there in 2002
They were training then for 2003 invasion
I got told the training area is the same size as Wales
I've heard in several different places that the majority of mechanical unreliability in rifles is caused by the magazine.
@@Treblaine This is generally true, usually about 90% of malfunctions are magazine related. when you see significant numbers of malfunctions caused by anything else you have a REAL big problem.
Great to see Jonathan Ferguson, the Keeper of Firearms and Artillery at the Royal Armoury Museums in the UK.
Was he speaking? I was distracted by the beautiful SLR in the background. I’m welling up now.
Yes, I was looking at the SLR too.
Never really got o play with the A3 but used the A1 and A2 before switching to L129. L85 should have been scrapped years ago in favour of the L119 (C7/C8). Nice to see bootnecks finally getting the Stoners though.
Agreed
She's a great gun, just lost to politics.
Agree. Never suffered problems with my L85A2/3 but why did we persist in using a non-ambi rifle? L129A2 was a range ninja but never had it as issued as my IW. Now retired, so I won’t get to use the KS1, but good to know we’ll have it in time for fighting in Russia …💀
@@IO-zg8md It was until they nerfed it by taking away our schmidt and bender glass.
The biggest issue with the rifle was the workers making it being told they were all being made redundant once they were finished. Resulted in zero fucks being given. Shocker.🤷♂️
I remember using the straight pull version of the A1 in the army cadets where I was a kid. It used to jam CONSTANTLY 😂
Same 😂
The l98a1? remember that well too!
@@Bawghy yeah, I was in the Cadets in the early 90s
Forgotten Weapons has a video on them 👍
@@AJ.Roberts I was in the air cadets, ‘94 onwards for about 6 years. Some great times were had, and unforgettable experiences.
Jonathan Ferguson, the Keeper of Firearms and Artillery at the Royal Armoury Museums in the UK, which houses a collection of thousands of iconic weapons from throughout history IN THE WILD!
I always enjoy hearing JF chat about the L85.
The L85 is now being replaced by the Knights Armaments L403A1 (an updated M-16 variant) for the Royal Marines and Rangers.
2:27 to be pedantic, there are two additional external changes with the A2: the magazine release is given a guard to prevent it catching on kit & dropping the mag, and trigger was replaced for one with a notched back face to clear compacted snow that would otherwise prevent it from moving when pulled
Magazine guard was an A1 change with the trigger change.
@@ratchet2505 So there were modified A1s before A2?
To be really pedantic, the trigger rear was sort of wedge shaped to cut through compacted snow. I don't think it was "notched"?! Amirite?
Er no those changes were made before the A2 they were emergency changes as I had that problem of mags going missing on exercise and on the range in the eighties by 1990 the trigger change and mag guard were fitted and that was not the A2 as they still had the original charging handle.
The Brits have great thinkers and engineers and so great discoveries and inventions, the L85A1 maybe wasn't the pinnacle of it
British politics mate, that's all there is to it.
That Rifle was a fantastic design the A2 proved that, the A1 was just built poorly by the lowest bidder!!
All thanks to politics!!
Its a decent weapon now
Many Japanese people look down on the L85A1 and the improved L85 as "blunt weapons," but I disagree. Although they are being replaced by new rifles, I still love them.
The empty cartridge going back into the breech was very real. That comma shaped cooking handle was a big improvement. Massive improvement over the A1. The two biggest problems remain though, it can only be fired right handed and it's too heavy.
Excellent video, thanks. I last fired one
30 years ago before the upgrades.
For peeps like me driving ambulances it was a Godsend when we first got them as they would actually fit in the cab!
Great video, very informative 👍🏻
Should of never given up the Brown Bess.
SLR every day of the week for me.
2 minutes before the obligatory SLR comment. Hats off to you.
@@Chubby_T0511😂
@@Chubby_T0511.. there had to be at least one in the thread. 😂
I agree completely…..I’m a 2434 from 74 - 98. SLR all the way…..
Love this explanation
Ah yes, the civil servant
Doesn't work and can't be fired?
@@PBurns-ng3gw you got the reference 😎 this joke once saved me from a beasting in Catterick
Multiple people misspelling the name of Jonathan Ferguson the Keeper of Firearms and Artillery at the Royal *Armouries Museum* in the UK which houses a collection of thousands of iconic weapons from throughout history.
So a FAL and a l85A3 in the background, nice.
I was always totally happy with my SLR. 😁
@@HankD13 When I was 13 I build a FAL replica 1:1 from wood, pvc pipe, tape and a walther toygun. Painted it black and had some fun times playing soldiers ...
@@GoneTwitiching Sounds fun. But I was getting paid to play with mine 😁!
@@HankD13 Lucky you, by the time I joined the dutch army (KCT) they were replaced by M4 carabines.
I used the A1 in basic trainings but was issued with an A2 when I got to my unit. I didn't have issues with the A1, but I wasn't using it under real field conditions much. With the A2 I found that as long as you kept the gas parts clean it was a pretty reliable weapon.
Shocking bit of kit.
no stoppages when i was using one at basic last year, it seemed pretty good to me (i didn't understand why people were slagging it off) now i know they were slagging off the old variant.
its not just the stoppages!!. Not sure if you've had any or much time with an "ar" platform but i bet within 15 minutes of using one you'll see why!
thank you for this info. I carried the A1 on ops for a number of years. and have experience of a broken extractor. got me a whole pile of trouble
Remember the days out in Norway when i was in Norway and the Royal Marines were conducting cold weather trials on the weapon , running it through all the drills , example withdrawal out of contact and then setting up a snap ambush hot weapon to then cold , when the ambush was initiated some of the weapons had frozen , big problem with temperature changes , the advice was to keep the weapons outside of our tent groups , the susat sight was always prone to misting ,, how to unfreeze a weapon, urinate on it ! as for the real safety issue , that was the bolt head which was massively prone to building up brass flange on the head which in turn caused the weapon not to eject safely on the unload , saw many NDs due to that, which resulted in the School of infantry folks rewriting the unload drills , as for the SAS/SBS , they just said , we told you so after they binned it ! easy for them given their wide range of personal weapons to use, as for the rest , we were stuck with it ! as for a competition shooting weapon , OK as long as you managed to keep back a whole bunch of them from going out on exercises and defiantly away from assault course . especially the LSW ! which rattled like a biscuit tin after a while . in conclusion the weapon at that time was a bag of nails which allowed snow to clog up in the perforated areas , , any moisture on it would immediately freeze , and if one just happened to land in a big dump of soft snow and then attempt to engage the enemy with a snowed up SUSAT ?
That's really good stuff, thanks.
This is fascinating.
And the L115A1 was built in a shed 😂😂
They had a shed?
@@TheWorldRealist That's where all the development effort and money went. They remembered the rifle Friday afternoon just before knocking off.
But not by a committee of engineers who had no experience with firearms, like the civil servant.
They say the 5.56 calibre round needs replacing due to modern body armour making it less effective. As a former soldier, I'd probably agree. Plus I didn't like the way I nearly got brass in my face and hair when fireing it. I've fired an American AR that's nice compared to the SA80 in all its forms its also lighter to carry. The later SA80 A3 was okay but nothing more far from the best in my opinion but it did the job.
How the hell were you holding it? Rounds are ejected on the far side of you face, so zero chance of that🤷♂️
@@Jabber-ig3iw some are lefty rifle, though they are righthanded writers or pistol shooters. I can right hand shoot a rifle, bur groupings are 30% better with left hand.
Steve Raw's "The Last Enfield" is a MUST read.
Proof, if it were needed,that you can’t polish a turd but you CAN sprinkle glitter (and a picatinny rail) on it.
hey guys I think that may be Jonathan Ferguson, the Keeper of Firearms and Artillery at the Royal Armoury Museums in the UK, which houses a collection of thousands of iconic weapons from throughout history.
Bravo Jonathan, i like your presentation now
The L85, the epitome of being unable to polish a turd.
Even after all the mods lets not forget a number of facts. It's way too heavy, it can't be fired left handed, it has virtually ZERO international sales and is slowly being phased out of service to be replaced by an AR-15/M16 design weapon which the UK could have adopted back in the 80s-90s. It's never been a "battle winner". It's always been a second tier firearm that UKSF refused to adopt. If all that doesn't speak volumes I don't know what does.
Thanks for the upload. Regardless thank you Eugene Stoner.
So the question is how many of these have been sold abroad, and are being used by other forces than the UK. 🤔
"How BAE Systems coined it in twice with the L85"
A rifle created from an arse-about-face AR -18 so RSAF would have something on it's order book when it was flogged off to British Aerospace (latterly BAE Systems).
An upgrade that cost more than decent new rifles from other manufacturers so H&K would have a sizeable order on it's books before H&K was flogged off by it's then owners BAE Systems.
That's the military-industrial complex for you, mate... 🤷🏼♂️
@@granitesevan6243 It's public sector incompetence combined with defence contractors taking the pish whenever they have the opportunity. I say that as someone who spent a fair few years working in the defence sector, on both sides of the fence.
@@Heinz3493 Because the private sector are renowned for elite results... 🤦🏼♂️
@@granitesevan6243 As I said before i've worked on both sides of that fence. At least it's possible to fire the incompetent in the private sector, in the public sector they get promoted instead 🙄
@@Heinz3493 Yes, it's a corollary of a system that seeks to squeeze maximum output from minimum input. The trouble is that "the incompetent" (however defined) are not the only entity deemed surplus to requirement. Nothing and nobody is of value, unless it's of value to the abstraction of productivity. So far, so good, I hear you say, until AI and automation render ALL people "incompetent". Not unique to private economies, I realise; but it's a product of the same merciless, inhuman, technocratic logic
In my day this weapon was known as the SA80 the L85A1 was the support version.
I loved my SLR!
If I remember rightly, the spring in the magazine was also changed out to also stop the bullet tilting and had a little more tension so it wouldn't get jammed up
also no light aluminium mags anymore, that would deform when gripped too hard.
@@zhufortheimpaler4041 it's already mentioned in the video that they are now steel
The new steel mag was a game changer on its own. A heavy old girl, but once the a2 came in it definitely improved people's thoughts and expectations of the rifle. The amount of play between the upper and lower was always a blight on its accuracy though, plenty of wobble.
Always got hold of colt gi mags 28 rds worked well
Explain more please, because when we first had these in 89/90, I vaguely remember some straight, lower capacity but sturdier Colt mags appeared 'from somewhere' ...as these things do.
Through unofficial channels normally , ie swapping or borrowing on a non return basis 🤔
Yeah I broke 2 firing pins on the range in 1995 doing basic training, yes it was an A1 PoS, the NCO's tried to blame me, but having already been a qualified machinist engineer before joining the Signals, I told them the pins were too hard and brittle, clearly they weren't being batch tested and made by the cheapest manufacturer. I had so many issues with dual feeds squishing the end of the rounds, I told the Sergeant "The only chance I have of killing an enemy with this is if I club them to death with it" to which he smiled.
I had zero issues with my A1 SA80, couple of stoppages in all the time I used it, that said I only used it in environments it was designed for. Most issues were caused by the garbage magazines rather than the rifle itself.
In the 1970s, bullpup assault rifles were put into service on both the British and Austrian lines.
Only these two countries in the world legalized this because they thought that the bullpup was a better weapon due to its reduced size due to recoil.
This is a controversial question to this day, whether it is a good idea or not
It is certain that the Austrian Steyr already started producing plastic transparent magazines for the AUG and for both weapons, 4X optics were also made for the SA80, which was an epoch-making solution at the time
On the one hand, I think the transparent magazine and the quadruple optics are a very good idea from Steyr, the SA80 is currently still in service with the British, but it will be replaced by an M4-like assault gun soon
Neither bullpup gun has a buttstock and neither the sight can be changed nor can a gun light be mounted on it, so both are outdated and not suitable
Austria is not currently planning to replace the Bundesheer's weaponry, and the new AUG A3 is already 13 years in production, but it is only used by Austrian military special units (I think essentially, it would also be suitable for military commando units or paratroopers). Steyr upgraded the German G36 with the STEYR ARMS G36 Upgrade Kit (the perhaps instead of G96?), but it was not put on the market by either Austria or Germany
It would be better, because the Germans already had problems with the G36 in Afghanistan. Above 30 degrees Celsius, the weapon showed an inaccuracy of one and a half meters with a single shot, as the barrel tends to overheat.
The Austrians also converted the new version to a STANAG magazine, put a picatinny rail on it and replaced the barrel with a much more durable one and the weapon was replaced with a metal receiver
So, in all respects, the weapon is much better and it would be timely to replace it, but neither Germany nor Austria seem to be planning to replace their old weapons at the moment
Good thing they didn’t go to the Falklands with this
What about Northern Ireland ? 💀
Heckler & Koch acquired by British aerospace and are still in business .
In the background on the left is a SLR. Once she was issued in any country only 2 changes. Cuts in slide to handle sand, wood to fibreglass stocks for UK. Thats it she worked never let you down L1A1 thats it no further models needed.
The story goes thus:
The original plan was to have factory filled, disposable magazines.
Use once, throw away.
That's why they're thin and light on the A1.
But somebody realised they could save loads of money by NOT throwing away the SINGLE USE magazines.
No idea if that's true but it seems to fit, looking at the h&k magazines.
But even the original trials mags have the groove at the rear to take the US type strip clip reloader.
If they were intended to be disposable then why make provision for rapid reloading?
The simple answer is that the A1 mags were just cheap & flimsy in order to save money. Another corner cut that cost lives.
@@runlarryrun77
Why design a new custom tooling just to make mags without the groove perhaps?
Just run cheaper materials through the existing equipment and tooling?
I wish I could remember what the source for that was, never could find it again.
I do not know if that is true for the L85/SA80, but that certainly was the original idea for the AR-15/M-16 by the US Army. Obviously our trash magazine were busily better than your trash magazines (if the story is true). Regardless, I have loved the look and concept from way back when it was designed with a 4.85 mm round. Wish I could get one of the A3s and here.
@@jmpetersrn
Oh, interesting.
I got to fire an A1 as a kid, my dad was Royal Navy and as such I was offered the opportunity to sail on board HMS Invincible from Gibraltar to England.
We got to do various training things while on board, plugging leaks with the training equipment, rescuing people from smoke filters compartments using FLIR equipment and stripping, cleaning and firing L85A1s.
It's really well balanced, you hardly feel any weight and especially no recoil. I'd also fired the keyboard l previous battle rifle, the SLR (L1A1, the FN FAL) and that really punches you in the shoulder so that's what I was expecting.
That was a great little holiday.
By the time it was fixed, I’m betting the final cost of acquiring and modifying the SA80 puts the per unit lifetime cost well above what just buying M16A2s and the M4s would have been.
oh its some insane amount. I think its the most expensive rifle in military service 🤣 this is the way with any government aquisition in this country
Rifle was fine before the update too if you got a good one. Biggest problem seemed go be the random nature of quality from unit to unit.
It’s a fairly good weapon now.
LSW never gets mentioned but it was a good weapon, if you knew your job you'd keep a couple of spare firing pins, cocking handles and GPMG oil bottles or two for the jungle and dessert and at least two sets of SA80 barrel rods.
apparently it can only be used from the right shoulder, wouldnt do for Australia
I was in from 93 till 01 and never had any problems with the rifle.
How much money did they spend per rifle in total compared to the SIG550, G36 or FAMAS?
And it all started with the EM1 and 2
Quality vid good insight ypu just need to make everything soldierproof
Should have gone just gone for that neat Swiss, Steyr AUG.
I still wouldn't call it a battle winner!!!
Wow its really awesome n impressive
5:28 that’s almost a direct quote from my wife…
How do you fire around cover though in either hand? The Famas had a user variable ejector.
Our services would have better off with a FAL.
How about a video on the L98 cadet rifle. This was a Single shot bolt action rifle with a handle on top, a bit rubbish. I used one in the 1980’s in cadets. we never had those yellow things stuck on the end to stop bits firing out, probably as we were only cadets.
Ahhh, the civil servant. Doesnt work and cant be fired.
More sexy and killer looks for this rifle compared to the previous one. Great
Thank god we still had the L1A1 in the Falklands War 👌
It is not that the L85A1 is a terrible weapon (I have no experience of it's use, it is just fundamentally important that the user thinks it is the Bee's knee's like my Gen thought the L1A1 and the No.4 L.E. were) unfortunately I do not believe that it has fulfilled it's promise even after the H&K rework, in that compared to the M4 Carbine it is too heavy, too bulky and difficult to maintain, but again no personal experience in service. One has only had to dismount from a vehicle with and S.L.R. once to see the importance of a shorter weapon but did the L85A1 meet that requirement better than an AR platform. It is I doubt not going too have the same respect from it's era that the former Rifles did, correct me if I am wrong.
Britain should have choosen AK-47 over the L85A1
@@destroyerarmor2846 russia wasnt even producing AK-47s by the time the L85 was developed
On the A2 the lugs on the bolt look a bit more rounded-off and polished than those on the A1, I'd say.
The rail didn’t come out till about 2005/6
Aka "The Civil servant"
It rarely worked and was difficult to fire.
Forgive my question but why do so many military rifles have magazine problems?
The A1 "Civil Servant", can't get it to work, can't fire it.
I think the powers that be, got a little side tracked with the idea of a bullpup rifle. And didn't give enough attention to it actually working properly, just goes to show if your going down the rabbit hole of a totally new radical design it had better work as intended. Especially comming from a design that was very good, the FN Fal. To be honest it's had its day really, 40 odd years old now, probably time for a replacement at this stage...and I can nearly guarantee, it won't be another bullpup. Probably some form of AR platform.
The powers that be were obsessed with bullpupping something, anything, from the end of ww2 until they finally got one.
I totally agree that it's had it's day now. I think the whole bullpup concept is finally dying. Both military development & procurement are moving back to standard layouts.
My dad used the first issued one he said he definitely preferred the L1A1😅 he eventually moved over to the FN MAG
If they switch to an Ar15 platform weapon in the end, it'll all have been a waste of a time and money
H&K could have replaced it with a rock and called it a vast improvement.
Nicknamed the civil servant you couldn’t fire it and couldn’t get it to work 😂
“Being able to be fired in the theatre of operations” was a UOR. Does sound quite urgent, to be fair.
The mag wells were not welded correctly causing a lot of malfunctions..
If I recall, all HK did was remake it to spec + some added extras
German armed forces, I was issued a G28 which was tremendously rare at the time which meant a lot of people wanted to try it at ranges (great time documenting all of my shots ugh) which also meant I got to swap with a lot more equipment, including the L85A2.
What a piece of junk, no matter how much Jonathan (insert GameSpot meme here) is trying to spin it as a battle winner here. Terrible ergonomics, laughable trigger, awkward to shoulder. Whoever designed it hated soldiers. I know one can become quite proficient with anything but starting off what seems like the Aimpoint of service rifles is no.
Wait, who is that man? I can't seem to find any information on him in the comments ;-)
Ill knowingly take your bait and tell you that is in fact Jonathan Ferguson, the Keeper of Firearms and Artillery at the Royal Armoury Museums in the UK, which houses a collection of thousands of iconic weapons from throughout history.
I heard stories of how bad the a1 was from guys above me. But i never once had a stoppage with the a2, not a stoppage that wasnt my own fualt anyway. Excellent weapon. Pig to clean though.
Is it still just for right handed soldiers?
How many billions did it cost to make the weapon properly serviceable ? Adding the original cost to the upgrade cost, the MOD could have swallowed their ego and bought in a first class, battle proven rifle from abroad and had every one gold plated , finely engraved and supplied in a kid leather designer case.
How did they get so much wrong on an army rifle?
Should have gone with the FNC imo.
Did Jonathan forget the magazine release catch buffer? for the A2? haha Love his series on gamespot and as a VET thought he would find such a insight funny
The A3 version is a very good rifle. Flawed design fixed by H&K
I heard they're planning to phase this weapon out altogether soon. Glad it's never had to be relied on against a truly professional military in a pitched battle
In over 10 years never fired a round in anger....for that reason im out
Wft? I had an uncle who served 30 years & never fired a round in anger cos that's just how his rotation worked, even during deployments.
Not everyone volunteers for front line duty sonny, it doesn't work that way.