Why RCBO's are BETTER than RCD's | Thomas Nagy
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 16. 07. 2024
- I finally settle the debate on which is better, an RCD or an RCBO!
I go into more detail in response to some of the comments I received in episode 2 of Nagy weekly where I discussed the reasons why I prefer RCBO's as opposed to fitting RCS's.
#RCDvsRCBO
#RCBO
#ThomasNagy
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â¶ïž Timecodes âïž
đ” 0:00 - Intro
đŽ 1:17 - Replacing main switch with an RCD (PROBLEM!)
đ” 3:22 - More circuits = More leakage
đŽ 3:37 - Why dual RCD boards are not made for big town houses!
đ” 7:00 - The dangers of a dual RCD board for electricians
đŽ 9:35 - RCBO's are SAFER than an RCD
đ” 11:18 - Different types of circuit breakers
đŽ 12:37 - RCD will not detect DC leakage
đ” 14:02 - The price difference
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â¶ïž WARNING âïž
This video is for entertainment purposes only. If you use the information from this video for your own projects then you assume complete responsibility for the results.
Youâd make a great teacher Tom!
Not sure about that the swearing would be an issue lol
@@haldo691 be a less boring teacher though. Guaranteed pupils would soak up the info with a good down to earth individual throwing in the odd swear word đ
@@haldo691 Guess you have never done a College Course then?
@@haldo691 my lecturer now for my 2391 course he's got a mouth on him and insults you quite often but it a funny way not an abusive way, being down to earth and teaching like that makes it much more easy to absorb his knowledge.
The new camera is sure good, great res and super quality pic!
Nice work on the Lighting even got a back light in too!
Great content as ever. Full respect
Just me or is the camera wobbling up and down though ?
I agree that dual rcd arenât the best but in a court of law you would show them page 36 - 37 of the on site guide which completely contradicts the 2 x regs you said and approves the use of dual rcd boards.
Loving the constant uploads Tom, keep it up!
The willy on the notice board lol
Good spot! Fair old todger it is too
You and dave savoury are awesome sparks. So informative. Cleared up a few things in my struggles đ
I am surprised that dual RCD boards are still being sold with AC RCD's
I'm suprised they didn't ban instalation of AC RCD's like in Germany.
Thanks Tom, excellent explanation
Very good Tom indeed! Love how you got the LED running lights on the van in the background toođđ»
Totally agree Tom, I wouldn't fit anything else than RCBO.
In Australia every circuit has it own 30ma RCBO. Easy as to install and easy fault finds
the guy i work with does a bit of both he puts lights on rcbos and then puts the rest split across two rcd
This is one of your best videos IMO (as a trainee electrician)! Please create more videos like this and youâll be getting đđœ on a regular basis from me and others Iâm sure đ
Often RCD protection is not needed on EV charging circuits if there is RCD protection (usually 6mA) built into the unit itself. A type AC RCD won't trip because the DC current will actually freeze the RCD in place - that's how a no-trip Zs test works.
Great video Tom, keep them coming đ
Great video as always. Totally agree about RCBO's. Spent lot's of time investigating faults with dual RCD boards. Many people do not understand that there are different types of RCD too. Hope to see more of your outside commercial work. All the best from Bill
Thanks for the clarification.
Much appreciated for your efforts in this video and shedding light on.
here i am still using those old school bottle glass fuses in my house and it works fine.
Well at least you've got an "overcurrent" protection device!
Great explanation and reasoning đđ
Have to say that was a brilliant explanation. Keep throwing this sort of video into the mix, and it will help so many people. Thanks.
Interesting video, well done.
Iâm learning more from you than my college teacher and on my last year in college (level 3) :/. Always open to an apprenticeship đđ
I bought a 7 way Fusebox board for my shed and Rcbos. Way overboard for what I need but it was cheap and I know whatever I put in the shed/workshop will be protected.
I think it was only ÂŁ120 for the lot.
Thank you for explaining Thomas !đ
Glad it was helpful!
That opening shot with the black bucket truck and LED running lights behind you in the bright orange jacket looked so cool!!!
Iâm glad someone noticed ;)
@@thomasnagy couldn't help it, looks the job!
@@thomasnagy Fantastic video, absolutely agree with RCBO argument, recommend it every time, worth every penny of the extra cash
Excellent video.....
I only ever fit RCBO boards and with Type A rcd not AC and always chuck in the SPD as well. I simply wont fit type AC or a split-load boards unless there is a very specific requirement.
Great video, I personally avoid fitting dual rcd boards for same reasons you mentioned in video (present faults) no rcd prior. After explaining benefits to the client of type A rcbo's boards (future profing/safety) 95% of my clients go ahead with RCBO boards. Fusebox Type 2 SPD loaded whith RCBO's is my standard setup currently.
Another advantage with RCBO's is with lightning strike, there's a really small chance of it tripping unlike RCD's who are much more sensitive. In Norway we stopped installing RCD's for 10-12 years ago except for Type B RCD which is mandatory to install with EV's (regulated in 2014) Only when we install a wallcharger with DC filter (Easee Home charger) there's no need for type B RCD
Many thanks for that, instructive and enjoyable. This gives me more confidence to discuss what I really want the electrician who will be swapping out my old (fuse-wire cartridge) fusebox with a consumer unit, to supply and fix.
Although our house is not a large one, I feel happier with RCBO's-makes sense to me.
Another great video has always Thomas đ
Glad you enjoyed it
Great work, great content and couldn't agree with you more Tom. If fitting new protection then why not do it right first time?
I am amazed that UK has not regulated the AC type out. NZ has been type A for a very long time now and a max of 3 MCB downstream per RCD.
I would prefer RCBO as it also has less space as we have to fit double pole version.
ah NZ also double pole MCB's ? Type AC is in Belgium already 10-20 years not allowed in new builts . But no limitation of the amount of MCB's after the RCD ..
Love the rant. I feel this
Totally agree with you Tom. Been fitting Hager Type A RCBO boards for the last 2 years. Won't quote or fit a split load RCD board anymore as I don't think they're fit for purpose. As you say, if the client wants a split load board then I don't want that client
Your spot-on with your RCD comment. I had two fuse boards fitted when the property was rewired back in 1981. When the eldest came along in 1986 I fitted one RCD to supply these consumer unit's (quite expensive at the time). The problem I had being nearly every time the supply switched off and on in quick succession due to a fault in the area, the trip would go off as well and have to be reset. Finaly changed the set-up to one consumer unit last year with RCBO's. It's been tested a few times by external influences and everything still remains on.
Great video
Thank you, I have learnt a lot from this upload, brilliant đ
Spot on đ
Well done đ
Technical Tomđ
Good explanation. A single RCD board lead me to have to remotely get an electrician into our house while on holiday after damp and a nicked wire in the garage caused everything to trip out. She suggested and RCBO board to avoid the problem in future and I was happy to pay.
Smiley face got a small winky lol đ
Nice one mate new subscriber đđ
Thank You Tom for explaining all that very informative.
No worries!
RIP Betty Crocker
Great video Tom learnt a lot from it and I think ur right about rcbo is the way especially now that prices for them have come down a lot for them đđ
Great video, not a sparky but bloody love stuff like this
Great video đ
These videos are very educational.
Tom. Couldnât have a better teacher than you matey đđ»
I love your rants !!!!!
Preaching to the converted, Tom.
Love RCBO boards. Quite simply, the faulty circuit will obviously (hopefully)! only take out the RCBO that supplies it.
Minimal circuits go down in the house, fair chance most (or enough) lighting will stay on.
Straight away, you can see which circuit has caused the trip, potentially leading you into the cause of the problem a bit quicker.
With fault finding, trying to find that gitting appliance causing the trip, you are only tripping out the circuit concerned, not half, or all of the house.
Recently, friend of mine had a nuisance trip. Always at about 3am. Driving him and missus potty.
"Standard" board, one rcd protecting everything. Told him he would have to be very patient and methodical, and basically go into "Sherlock Holmes" mode. Eventually found the prob, a very ancient, tucked away old doorbell psu from previous owner, that hadn't been disconnected.
Suggested if he could afford it, get a board upgrade, and all RCBOs.
Moved into new house recently, upgraded a few things, put a new board in, all RCBOs. Nice compact board, smaller than old plastic board, even with more circuits! (Intruder alarm used to be spurred off upstairs lights on a 2.5mm cable! - presumably by an alarm engineer). Now on its own circuit. Lots of space to work inside the board, as I chose the "new" compact RCBOs. Love how, when Crabtree launched theirs, they said "same price as the larger ones". Also like them as they provide double pole switching, completely isolating the circuit. Great for testing, and also less nuisance tripping if you are working on an "isolated" circuit, and do the old trip out by accidentally touching the neutral or something like that.
The RCBOs are all type Bs.
You briefly mentioned surge protection, Tom. It seems to be the current "flavour of the moment". I know a lot of leccies have mixed views on it, and like you say, can also depend on where you are as to if there is a great need for it. There could be an argument that most domestic premises have managed without it for years, so why the compelling need for it now? My thoughts are that if you've got a suitable RCBO populated board, you've probably got a good amount of reasonable protection, certainly the most protection that has been afforded for years. (Think back to double pole rewireable fuses - a miracle if they were wired correctly with the correct fuse wire, or more likely a nail or tin foil in the place of fuse wire).
Also another "flavour of the moment" seems to be AFDDs. Again, do you think they offer any realistic extra protection, particularly for domestic premises, or to be cynical, is it a way to just flog a bit more hardware for the consumer unit?
I think John Ward has tried to do some "real life" (or as "real life" as possible) tests with AFDDs with some results that might question the claimed effectiveness of these devices.
Would you do a chat with your thoughts on surge protection and AFDDs, particularly for domestic premises sometime, Tom?
Also why has someone appeared to have drawn a "thingy" on the flipchart?
Thank you for your input Andy. It is nice to read up on experiences from other electricians :) That would make an interesting video to talk about surge protection and AFDDs :)
Keep teaching tom your good đ
Best sparky content on CZcams âĄđȘ
Great argument Tom, but you have to work within the customers budget. I. like you; think RCBO's are the best. In fact the Wylex combined RCBO/Arc Fault Protection Devices are probably better again and combine that with a Surge Protection Unit and you've got the best money can buy. If i was having a board change and money was no object, i would go for the best money could buy.
Why would you not, I mean you want to protect yourself, your home and your possessions right? Surely! đ€·ââïžđ
At best it's ÂŁ50-60 vs split box (splitting hairs over ÂŁ60 when the installation of everything's going to be like ÂŁ500 or more anyway to do the work)
As he makes the point, ÂŁ50 is not enough of a price difference when your talking about this level of safety.
As for the wylex AFDDs. Yes they're safer, if you know what their limitations are. As for their price? ÂŁ160 EACH
So you've a 10 way board that's now gona cost you the guts of ÂŁ2k instead of ÂŁ200
One of their main limitations? Your gona have to split all your rings and use them as radials now instead, meaning on a house with 10ways with 3 being rings you now need a 14way board and 3 more AFDDs putting your cost well over 2k
Havenât fitted a split load in 8 years.
Once Iâve explained the benefits of rcbos to a client they are totally on board especially the bonus of finding their own faults.
I had a customer ring me up the other day saying they unplugged all their appliances like I trained them to and it was the kettle! They were so chuffed and pleased it didnât cost themselves nothingđ
Now induction hobs are common type Aâs will prove their worth as well as solar etc.
Time to let go of split load boards, old tech đ
To isolate faults you don't need RCBO. You just need one RCD and dual pole breakers (as is the standard on my country). Dual pole breakers are very cheap (basically the same price of a single pole), and to isolate the fault is simple: turn off all the breakers, turn on the RCD. If it trips, then it's the RCD fault. If it stays up, turn on the breakers one by one, when you find the one that trips it, you found the circuit that has the fault. It's so simple that my mother knows how to do that.
Yes, when it trips you loose the power to the entire house. As you do in a power outage, or in my country if you exceed the amount of power that you can draw from the grid by your contract (yes, thanks smart electricity meters). If it trips 1 time at year it's a lot, and all the times that it did it was because I was doing stupid things like repairing stuff without an isolation transformer and accidentally made a short to ground. If the RCD trips it's always a fault, and the fault must be fixed, it shouldn't trip for nothing.
@@alerighi The point Tom is making here is all circuits that have an Earth wire (CPC ) will leak current, generally in the region of 1-5 ma each. This all adds up and can cause nuisance tripping as the RCD is protecting multiple circuits and is designed to trip at around 25 ma of leakage current . RCBO's get around this problem as it only protects one circuit and therefore you have "room" for 25 ma leakage on the circuit.
@@timg6850 in the Netherlands, regs say max 4 circuits on one RCD. So a 14 circuit board would have to be a 4-RCD board. Thereâs no real need to go straight to 1 RCD per circuit just for that issue.
That said in modernity the price differential is so smallâŠ
@@alerighi Not necessarily, as leakage currents can accumulate. You just found the one that took it over the threshold. With the increased use of modern electronics there is naturally more leakage current, and if there are, say, 10 circuits on a single RCD then it's more likely to trip.
There are plenty of videos around of electricians having trouble diagnosing what is causing a trip on those RCD boards. They go round turning circuits on one by one and don't find the problem. Also, that mechanism doesn't work with intermittent faults. At least with an RCBO and it's intermittent, then you know which circuit it is. You do not get that with an RCD and many circuits.
The only downside of RCBOs is they cost a bit more in the first place. However, factored over the life of the unit they are in, it's a very small cost and has a lot of benefit to the householder, and saves time and hence money in locating the problem.
nb. the intermittent fault issue is not theoretical - it happened in my mother's house, where an intermittent fault was happening, and gradually getting worse. At least with RCBOs, we knew which circuit it was, and the problem was isolated to that.
As an old retired plumber I have no understanding what you are talking about BUT I really enjoy watching. Thanks for the excellent enjoyable and entertaining content. Good luck with everything you are doing.
Thanks pal, I really appreciate it!
Did you ever install hot water systems?
Spot on đđ
this has been a good video to explain what is a RCBO, make easy ... may be you can come out with a video series "Thomas Nagy Explain"..đ
Excellent video dude. Great points well made. I like the fusebox boards they are a decent budget board.
Agreed! We have a few of them in stock. We've been pleased with them so far!
Very educational, thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I just couldnât imagine fitting anything less than RCBOâs now. We will see an increase in electronic equipment in houses, driving the requirement for A typeâs. You certainly donât want to be in a situation were type AC RCDâs are blinded by DC leakage. Offering Surge Protection and AFDDâs will also become far more prevalent.
Owing to a small computer infestation, I had RCDs replaced with RCBOs years ago because cumulative earth leakage current was causing nuisance tripping. This will only get worse with more people working from home and the IOT.
I've tickled your like button. I will be going for a STI test tomorrow :)
It's weird that I knew this but didn't know this at the same time...
in Australia we don't really see this problem, as only much older places are slapped onto a single rcd.
In newer installations to be compliant we must have a 'maximum' of 3 circuits to an rcd and it must be split between lighting and power per rcd.
So at a minimum in a new installation, your hws, ac, oven and hot plate ect. are on their own rcbo, but then you would have a couple rcds with power. power, light. (purely because of the price).
I'm definitely going to remember this video if I'm ever fault finding in an older place!
Thankyou for the video Tom!
Silly thing is 1 RCD and 3 mcbs the cost at that point it's not far off just buying 3 RCBOs
That was brilliant! Cheers, Onion.
Glad you enjoyed it
Great video as usual, good lesson, but who is the artist up on the right hand corner of the board,
Keep up the good work đ
I completely agree with your sentiments; protect/isolate each circuit. But if power is lost, a property will be dark regardless of the fuse board contents. Would you be a proponent of battery backup emergency lighting?, it may save Betty in a power outage.
I think at least 1 in every 4 downlights should be required to be emergency back up. I don't know what the lux or count level is in commercial but emergency lighting is legally required in commercial and public so why not res?
Totally agree.
i fully concur with what your saying abour dual rcd boards against rcbo RCBO boards for me every day.
wobbly cam.
Betty Crocker must be sick of electricians messing about in her house?
She sure it đđđ
@@thomasnagy Next thing she will be asking Tom to wire up her Christmas tree lights!
100% with you Tom. I had our board changed under v17 of the regs a few years ago. We have a fault on one of our circuits. Dual RCD board. Every time it trips we lose our lights.
Given what I know know, I would have RCBO board fitted. At the time I had a separate garage board independent of the house because I go out into the empire of dirt and play with stuff. Trips often. Does not effect the house. Also I can turn off the house which then safe while any work is being done in the house. I still have power in the house via an extension and vice versa.
Put it another way, why would you not have an RCBO board? Considering the % price of labour against the price of fuse board change how much are you saving?
More of this type of content please
I just stopped installing them all together on my rewires, but don't have any call backs on previous installs I done before. I guess it's all about how you install it. One job luckily I installed a RCBO board because an USB socket next to kettle was tripping kitchen sockets and it's only caused the kitchen sockets to trip.
Great updates on board's
Fantastic Mr Nagy đđ. Need to to keep up with your videos đđ
Iâve Hit the usual đ
Much appreciated
@@thomasnagy : Got to book some time off today, as itâs a Monday and you be dropping another video đ
Great and informative video Tom as always. What if you have a TT supply, can you use single pole RCBO's or do you need double pole?
Great Video, in South Africa we don't have such devices as RCBO's we only have RCD but here it is called an Earth leakage device I have never even seen Dual RCD boards here if something causes nuisance tripping it is just put just after the main switch without earth leakage protection.
Totally agree with your comments on the unsuitability of dual RCD on properties Iâve refused to install them for the last 15 years, if you spend the time go explain in plain English the difference between dual RCD and RCBOâs most people accept the idea of the RCBO boards and pay the extra for them.
The big issue of dual RCD boards is then the previous electrician has install the upstairs and downstairs lighting circuits on the old Wylex board with rewireable fuses and has shared a neutral you canât split the circuits on either of the RCDâs at least with RCBOâs you can keep them on one breaker because all the ring final circuits will be on separate RCBOâs meaning thereâs always a lamp that can be used to illuminate their way downstairs
I think there is a (slightly backwards) reason to occasionally use RCDs. That is where you've got a circuit that might trip an RCD but you wouldn't notice quickly and it would cause issues if off for a long period.
In a similar vein to running the smoke alarms from a lighting circuit because you might turn the alarms off but you wouldn't want to lose the lights.
Say you have a sewage processor on its own RCBO, it trips, you don't notice for a week, you've got a week's worth of poo that hasn't been dealt with.
Or you've got a garage with freezer. Put that on a radial fed from an RCBO, it trips, no one notices for a few days, melted freezer.
If those had also tripped the internet then you might have saved a bunch of smelly stuff. Short of having DBs that have some sort of alarm when a circuit trips, it can occasionally be advantageous to not keep a circuit to itself.
Power or phase loss or alarms are a thing, however you have to get over the aversion to fitting non standard things on a DIN rail (which is standard practice in a lot of areas).
I think there is room for improvement in alarms or even wifi/bluetooth communication of a tripped RCBO. As Tom mentioned in the video, putting too many circuits on one rcd can lead to excessive dc currents preventing an AC RCD from tripping due to an AC fault.
@@jdaley197931 I have built systems to send me alerts when power fails to things, including battery backups so they can tell me when the power to them fails. But like you say it's unusual.
Most of the time at home it's obvious, but not always.
personally don't fit any installation suitable for Split load i always fit RCBO/SPD board as don't want fault taking out half the house
Great video đ. All my boards in the last 3 years bar one or two have been rcbo boards and all type A rcd đ
Nice đ
Could not agree more!
Older kettles? How do modern kettles differ?
Large residential properties donât lend themselves to the std U.K. wiring format template. Itâs really S distribution board type approach. RCBOâs have been a god send.
Completely agree, iv stopped fitting split boards and only fit rcbos, in this market (cough bundy10) the extra ÂŁ50-100 in materials is worth it in mine and the customers interest
Grate video Tom! But what with the hidden drawing in the upper right corner of the drawing.
.........
3 bed town house built 2013 - can confirm dual RCD board. Something else to add to my list!
Good video Tom, exactly what I've been saying to customers for years!
Question mate, would you be up for giving a chat to some of our learners at Northampton College sometime?
Its all about price. Even council housing CU upgrades still only want Dual RCD board to comply with 18th Edition. They dont even want SPD installed despite it being mandatory nowadays.
I worked with a spark so know a few things. I qiuks pull stuff up with my houseing lady and cheap shoddy work with something. What could kill some 1 she looked at me like I was a mug and knew sod all she was a witch she disnt stay long after I made her look a fool
Surge is not mandatory
This is where we must learn from Grenfell. The same high standard must apply in every property and we must never accept 2nd rate.
@@Mainly_Electrical absolutely.....good practice only at the moment
If you do social housing work you'll be aware that the majority of HAs now dictate that RCBOs are required on board changes, even in tiny flats. Go and work on massive houses in the sticks and you'll find boards with main switch RCDs everywhere!
Also, typically double pole on RCBOs so will disconnect the neutral too. :)
I hate dual RCD boards and stopped fitting them a few years ago. Lost count of the amount of home owners that have fitted USB sockets to every outlet in their houses and their dual RCD boards keep tripping due to leakage. They never 100% complied due to selectivity anyway and it's honestly time they were phased out.
Great video - totally agree on using rcbos đ However, when the barrister asks me why I didnât follow a particular reg from BS7671 I would point out that the blue book is not a legal requirement⊠just BS đđ
Yay 4 Betty Crocker
It's people like you Tom that get me into shit.
I absolutely LOVE your content and the stuff I learn from it scares the absolute crap out of qualified people that I ask to quote for stuff!
I had a plumber run a mile because of the knowledge I've gained from Pete Booth aka pb plumber today!
It's hilarious how people react when you do research and know a reasonable amount about what your talking about. They genuinely think your a qualified trade or regulator inspector testing them or taking the piss out of them.
I love these videos mate, your a legend!
Cheers pal! I'm glad you could take something away from this video!
@@thomasnagy I take something from most of them, even if it is just the enjoyment of watching you work or shopping for groceries.
I do get bored of seeing lots of EICR videos but because your on the tools less these days and cut boring crap like that out of some videos I watch every video to the end.
@@stuartcraigon2003 I am glad the videos are enjoyable to the end! Thank you for the support :)
Enjoyed the video and you are so right. Iâve been installing RCBO boards as standard now with SPD as well for about 2 years. RCD split boards are the thing of the past as far as I am concerned and when I price jobs itâs for RCBO boards, I will not entertain the âcheapâ option.
I installed type F RCDs at home, designed for devices with switching power supplies, also less susceptible to things like thunder discharges.
those are perfect for computers / freezers / (...) where you need to avoid tripping for no valid reason
Fantastic explanation Tom, really appreciate you and your teams effort that go into these videos.
Even though I got my qualifications from college, I've found that content like this is worth its weight in gold.
In years to come I can see you in more of a teachers role but if you fancy teaching sooner I'd love to pop down the unit with biscuits đ
All the best....Postie Jay thats met you a few times đ€Ł
Here here
I tickled you to say thanks......đ
Any ideas as to where you can get the mini /compact Crabtree Starbreaker RCBOs at a sensible price? They are about 3 times the figure you mentioned đ