Why Modifying Your Suspension Often Isn't Worth It (Road Cars)
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- čas přidán 13. 04. 2021
- Can suspension upgrades like springs, dampers, coilovers, and sway bars make a difference?
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Are suspension modifications worth the money? In this video we'll analyze how cars get grip, what impact suspensions play, and the test results from Tire Rack testing four different suspension setups: 1) Original equipment suspension on a BMW 3-series. 2) Lowering Springs. 3) Springs, dampers, and sway bars. 4) Coilovers (using stock sway bars). We'll discuss differences in noise, ride comfort, handling, cornering stability, steering response, braking modulation, handling predictability, cornering grip, slalom times, and lap times.
We'll also discuss why investing heavily in suspension setups can be worthwhile for racing teams, but often those reasons won't apply to road cars. Ultimately, it's important to understand what reasons make sense to upgrade a suspension, and where you might be let down. Modifications are always about setting realistic expectations and meeting your goals; I hope you find this video helpful!
Tire Rack Test Results:
www.tirerack.com/suspension/t...
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I need a comprehensive white-board explanation on how that hat stayed on your head.
Wind go fwoosh over windshield
Aerodynamics. And that little netted thing behind him.
It’s a Miata
It's cause his driver side window isn't rolled down.
Nah. Some Gorilla Glue will do it.
Tire Rack probably did that study to show that tires are a better performance upgrade than an fully modded suspension. I'm surprised Jason didn't mention that a set of better tires could bring much more than a 1% increase. We all know how Jason loves tires.
Truth! Also consider that the suspension upgrades may make a more significant performance difference when paired with a tire that has more grip!
I totally agree and was just about to post the same thing. The stock tires probably give up well before the upgraded suspension will show improvements. And like you said, upgraded tires first will show more of an immediate improvement. Then once you have the better tire grip you will then be able to take advantage of an upgraded suspension.
@@dickinaround87 That certainly is the case. In left hairpins my friend's Evo X used to put the left rear in the air and right front would sit on a bump stop on stock suspension+slick tire setup. However, to make things better spring rates and damping force has to be carefully calculated to take into consideration how suspension geometry behaves throughout suspension travel range etc. Most kids nowadays just put a set of coilovers and slam the car as low as it will go and say the handling is much better. All I can say is "Sure kid, enjoy halved tire lifespan, bump steer, toe steer and messed up roll center".
This study by TireRack was done over a decade ago and not sure if it still holds relevance. Not sure what the situation is now
@@arekb5951 especially roll centre is ignored. Most people don't understand that given the conventional suspension geometries, roll centre is ideal around a certain ride height. Stray too far away from that design ride height and an otherwise docile car will turn squirrelly.
Suspension should be as soft as you can get away with for the given dynamics to ensure maximum tyre compliance.
The best bang for buck is always setting your tyre pressure correctly. Most often overlooked by boy racers 😆
BMW 3-series already has a pretty amazing suspension from factory, so I can see how aftermarket upgrades would have less of an impact on performance. I would like to see the tests done on an economy car.
Not sure about now but the old ones are eibach?
Same with F22 2-series.
nah bro, the body roll is unacceptable. I have a f30 340i xdrive and i know what i'm talking about.
A wise man suggested Upgrades in this order: tires, then the driver then the suspension.
Stop. Steer. Go.
That is your order of mods.
Tires are probably the most important and also cheapest performance factor on any car. A good set of tires can make a TON of difference how a car behaves and increase its performance. A big reason modern hot hatches beat 10 year old supercar lap times are the tires.
Most people dont seem to get that though and I see tons of performance cars with REALLY shitty tires on them.
Hip youtubers: check out my 1000 horsepower LS swapped miata.
lol
@@Mpeterson1286 Isn't suspension steering and like a turbo on some cars can be like 20-30% more horsepower if you're looking for speed benefits
Spot on, however the singular “flaw” in the logic of the Tire Rack test is the vehicle tested was a BMW 3-Series, which has one of the best factory-tuned suspensions and chassis available. Hard to improve on that with just bolt-ons. It would be more helpful if Tire Rack repeated the test with a common mainstream car like an Accord, etc.
My thought exactly, or even like a gen 1 mx-5. In that case I wonder if it's best to install aftermarket kits just to replace aging hardware
Heck and the X Gen Accord can handle well too. It’s crazy what it can do,.. ( I have one )
Not only that, at some point the condition of the suspension starts to play a role, as just swapping out old parts for new OE parts can be highly beneficial to how the car handles.
Yes I agree I own a civic si 20,a car at a lower price point or a economy minded car will have more compromise in suspension tuning or if the test was done on like a gti or civic how different would the results be
@@HitokoriTatsumi Agreed. I had an older Accord, which is what made me think of it. The new Accords have very well-tuned suspensions. Great ride!
Jasons wife tells him she loves him. He lokks confused and asks; "But by HOW MUCH, in numbers?". Ah yes, the engineering brain!
42
Maybe her attorney can answer in numbers much better...
9.8m/s^2
😃😄😅😆😆😆😆😂😂😂😂 great!!!
Lokks? Is this your best?
To be honest, I wanna see them try that with a worse car. BMW already makes premium & luxury cars with performance in mind. Let me see how it improves a civic’s performance if you swap out the stock parts.
The true purpose of all performance upgrades is so that they can go to Cars and Coffee and say "Look at the performance upgrades I've installed."
I’m inclined to agree with this statement..... even though I’m guilty of it lol
YES LOL
@@chadhouser3190 OMG!!! i busted out laughing reading your comment... Good one. :)
i mean working on cars is also a hobby and escape
More like "Look at how rich I am, peasants."
Interesting study by Tire Rack, yet what they really showed was how well tuned the stock suspension is on the BMW 3 series.
Was going to say a 3 Series is very different from something like a muscle car which is different from a sedan which is different from a truck etc.
There’s probably lots of cars out there that would absolutely benefit from suspension modifications even though the study came to a different conclusion.
Makes you wonder if tire rack is a credible source for such an experiment....like the BMW 3 series has race inspired suspension from day one....I think they should stick to tires
There isn't really anything magical or race inspired about a non M E9X 3 series. Mac Struts up front, multilink out back, pretty standard stuff. Plus the non M units equipped with run flat tires are heavily panned by the enthusiast and grassroots racing community for the suspension deflection worked in to compensate for the stiff riding RFT's.
That said, the Eibach R1 coilovers that TR used not being an upgrade over stock is very not surprising. All coilovers are not equal. Far from it.
Yeah, I had the same thought. Would like to see the same test done with a Camry, or something a little more mundane.
You mean a manufacturer with a budget of millions did a better job than amateurs doing make-shift changes or companies who just want to sell you stuff. Who'd have thought..
I think Sabine Schmitz showed how the best upgrade to performance on modern vehicles is upgrading the driver when she nearly broke 10 minutes on the Nurburgring - in a delivery van.
Most people that do these upgrades never do anything that warrants them.
Yeah but my fender to lip fitment
Rip
she also drove the jag diesel on the track first time broke jeremy's lap time quote by bbc & Richard hammond
Except she modified the van in order to get close, and used a leading draft car to provide slipstream.
@@ScathingMobile ok.... she took out the back seats and drove behind someone.. so what
I value how the car feels. The grip maybe be them same but the confidence and feeling of control through corners of a car with body roll vs no body roll makes a big difference.
Body roll is a pretty noticeable thing. I remember that michael Jackson feeling when driving ford galaxy on roundabouts and nearly tipping over. But that is all about anti-roll bars, right?
I'm always impressed at Jason's flow and composure while driving, not seeming to have notes nearby (he could somewhere off-camera) or having someone in-car assisting, etc. Really impressive! And always great content :)
Engineers often have to do reports and things like that, he must be pretty used to memorising a subject and not forget anything
10 years of Youtubing will help with that practice.
He knows his stuff. Doesn't need to reference notes because the knowledge is all in his noggin'
It is certainly worth noting that not all manufacturers tune their stock suspensions as well as BMW
But then not all performance shops tune the coilovers as well as a 2nd tier OE does its stock suspension.
Also, it can definitely be worth it if you're upgrading an older car.
Same for MX-5. Not all manufacturers use Bilstein as stock dampers :)
Though not sure if it is stock on all versions. Used to be part of a package I think.
You mean with ridiculously negative camber 🤣
Some people don't l ike a harsh ride, with elastic band tyres.
I think it also depends on how good or bad the stock suspension was. Otherwise these findings are useless.
I've got a 200k mile car that I'm putting coils on because that suspension is likely very tired.
@@mulletsquirrel "upgrading" tired parts to OEM-spec new components does wonders. I found out on my E46...
Base model suspension on Corvettes suck.
Exactly... every car is different and numbers aren’t everything. My golf r is 6mt even though dsg is better in every other way, and my handling upgrades did make noticeable differences to the driving feel.
Yeah they’re looking at brand new suspension with modern technology and tuning on a BMW, I would say a car that didn’t come with a “performance” oriented suspension from the factory and is 10+ years old would see a substantial increase with any suspension mods
I did mine for the looks mostly.
In this test, they started with a very high baseline.
These changes on a carolla might give more drastic results.
Yeah starting with a BMW was an interesting choice. They already start with sport tuned suspensions. Guarantee that on most cars it makes a bigger difference. Pick a car from a company that isn't world renowned for sport driving experience. Guarantee it would make more than a 1% difference on a Hyundai.
I did just sway bars on my NB Miata and I think that was the perfect suspension mod for it. Doesn't really make the car any stiffer, but just dials back the body roll and makes it a little more responsive to changes in direction.
I can confirm. I pushed my old 97 miata at max speed through a "course" with just good track tires, then tested with the tires and aggressive suspension. Lateral grip (speed possible through sweepers) was the same. The huge difference was in transferring weight and changing direction. Hands down in favor of suspension upgrade
Edit: also, once you break past the point of grip, stiffer suspension will make it much more predictable giving you a better chance to correct small mistakes
I will second this whole heartedly. The suspension didnt really effect maximum grip (which makes sense because the tires mainly provide grip) but the weight transfer happens way faster, which means direction changes happen faster. Also you can adjust the understeer/oversteer balance, and when you lose grip, it is much more predictable.
Stiffer suspension compensates for low chassis stiffness.
@@rolandotillit2867 Nope. The chassis will twist even more with stiffer suspension and stickier tyres.
@@v4skunk739 You're still adding suspension stiffness because your chassis isn't stiff enough. If you stiffen the chassis, you can get away with more compliant suspension. Ultimately the suspension and chassis act as a lever arm on the roll center. You have to consider the compliance of the entire system, the bushings deform, the suspension deforms, the chassis deforms, and all of this will migrate the roll center/COG. You stiffen stuff to keep the RC/COG from moving where you don't want it moving. If you stiffen bushings, or the chassis it becomes part of the soup of tuning the RC/COG.
Take EE's Miata, it's a very stiff chassis with very even weight distribution but relatively soft suspension, the result is a car whose COG/RC can be placed exactly where the driver wants it with ease.
Most modders aren't racing their cars anyway. They're absolutely ham fisted behind the wheel, they won't be going anywhere near the limits of the car unless they've got a death wish
Next "should you" vid: Big brake upgrade!
I have a near bone-stock Evo X. I see a lot of guys driving heavily modified STI's and Evo's. I see them and think "the suspension is pretty good. Why would I want to change it?" That said, I am in the midst of changing the suspension on my Forester XT!
Yes! I’d like to know if it would be worth it to upgrade to a 6 piston front caliper from a 4 piston
@@Kyle-nv2tc it would definitely be worth it for the shop selling them.
Agreed, other than larger heat sink I don't see how bigger rotors or calipers with more pistons will increase braking performance if the limiting factor is still tire traction.
I think it's hilarious when people install big brake kits, with cheap tires.
No one is gonna run the stop watch when im on the street, and when my brain gets impaled by my spine every time i hit a pebble, i feel like a racing driver... And thats worth all the money to me
Sway bars are probably the best thing to change from a stock suspension. If you aren't going to go a full(including arms and things) kit then the sway bars will have minimal impact on bump performance and NVH in terms of comfort, but can really improve body roll characteristics.
yeah sway bars, strut bars are always my go to (also chassis stiffening stuff if the car doesn't have it). Stiffer the chassis the more forgiving the suspension can be, its a win win
It's almost like the engineers who designed the car in the beginning knew what they were doing
Really depends on the car, sometimes platforms can really do better with something simple like a rear sway bar (MK7 GTIs)
@@ThunderGoatz depends on what your using the car for. If it's what the engineers designed it for then leave it alone but if it's built to be comfortable or to handle a certain way then a slight change may make it better
screw it 18k springs
Almost. That's the key word to that sentence.
@@ammm90000 well they can only make a car one way, they usually choose a little understeer which is best for the avg driver but a stiffer rear sway bar to make the car more neutral may help a better driver.
A lot of oem suspension on newer cars these days are designed with pretty decent handling even in suvs and are also decently comfortable at the same time. Go back 15-20 years and those suspension modifications will make a much bigger difference especially in something like an early 2000s Buick that would just sway lean and bounce several times over any sort of surface.
Engineering Explained : Why Modifiying Your Suspension Often Isn't Worth It
Fitment Industries : 😑
Donut Media: lets run a test with so many variables the test is pointless.
Tavarish: I haven’t even got time to modify my suspension
ZillaFullBoost: cut 1.53 60ft on with lowering springs
😂😂😂
Chris Fix It: Ay we’re all family here
All I did on my 2016 ND Club was install the Goodwin Roadstersport springs, dropped the car by like 0.75" and helped with the body roll. They are well matched to the stock ND1 bilsteins. The springs are a little stiffer to make up for the drop, but nothing crazy. The ride quality is still great and it helped reduce the body roll in corners and diving under breaking. I got the aftermarket bumpstops they recommended as well to help with the ride whenever the suspension does actually bottom out over a big bump. Very nice setup for very little cost.
One major thing to take in to consideration is the age of the car. If they ran those tests on a mid 90’s car, as opposed to a modern 3-series, modern aftermarket suspension components will make much more of a difference compared to the 30 year old OEM components (which could also be well worn)
then my question is, replace with oem/ or oem style? or replace "performance" aftermarket?
That isn’t the comparison they are trying to make. This was fresh factory suspension vs upgrades. If you drove a brand new 90s car you’d probably be surprised at how well it rode and performed from the factory.
I definitely agree, often times when people put aftermarket parts on older cars its cause the OE stuff is broken and actively more dangerous than aftermarket.
You mention old parts, but that isn’t apples to apples. My 2006 Dodge Charger suspension is wearing out so I’ll naturally notice a larger difference going to a new performance setup. However, I will also feel a large difference going from old parts to new OEM parts. Therefore, the comparison for an experiment must be between similar aged components such as swapping out new OEM for new performance parts. Otherwise, you degrade your statistical data with more variables.
The way I lowered my Golf 1 GTD(2.1 litre crank/block mods about 230-250bhp) in 1996 was put all the new suspension on with all lose bolts lowered the car on the jack till the full car weight was almost on the ground then tighten to bolts go for a drive then slacken the bolts just enough then quickly do a re-tighten - I lowered the car 2 inches then raised it 1/2 inch.... had no strange ware on the tires, no squeaks, no misalignment slightly better fuel mpg, and tires lasted longer too :):)
Be interesting to see if those numbers hold on a car not as well tuned for handling as a new ish BMW. I'd suspect the delta would be larger
Yeah I don't know why they would choose a new BMW for this test. I'm sure the stock suspension setup on a BMW 3 series is a lot more expensive than many aftermarket setups.
Agree all over the place. Why not more commonly suspension-modded road cars???
and maybe include an aftermarket suspension a little more expensive than $1400. That's not exactly the best they can do. This "test" looks like it was configured with a result already in mind.
5th option: coilover+sway bar+geometry correction caster,bumpsteer bush kit
I once ubered the guy who started BBS. He said that they could put heaps of power on a car and it would change the track time by only a second or two. Where as by dialing in the wheel, tire, suspension setup they could drop their time by 10-20 seconds per lap. I think the key to it is having grippier tires, because the tire will lose grip at the same speed no matter the suspension. He was definitely an advocate for suspension upgrades over power upgrades to improve track time. It just depends on your individual goals for the car.
A lot of car mods are about what the driver feels and thinks, even if the change doesn't result in mo' powuh or herspers. It is better to feel faster than to be faster, right? :)
Right on point. Driving is a daily task and we spend so much time doing it, why not make it feel fun. When I had a Corolla I hated driving and it was such a chore, but when I bought a civic ex I had more fun driving and it didn't feel like a chore anymore.
I think an underrated facet of modifying suspension is inspiring driver confidence, which goes a long way for how fast someone drives.
Yea and how often can you go fast to warrant the added confidence, without going to jail or getting a ticket?
I agree, and it's also how the car makes you personally feel. Idk about you but when I'm enjoying a country road in my low, stiffer than factory car and I can feel the road through the car, it makes me happy. Regardless of the numerical performance benefits it's not always a measurable feel of enjoyment, it's how the experience makes you feel
This is definitely the case, I'm driving a hyundai accent and I apologize when I hit potholes because not only do I feel the pothole but also how expensive fixing that is going to be.
@@MIH11MI6 I agree. If putting a big wing makes you think you have more grip and that makes you happy. Awesome
This is why I love your channel. You like proof through real testing, not just giving opinions.
Good points, glad you mentioned tire wear. My stock M2 was shredding the outside of the front tires on the track even though it handled fine IMO. I had to install camber plates and dial in more camber so the tires would last a full weekend. I hadn't planned on modifying this car but this was a necessary change. (Afterwards though, I could get through traffic circles quite a bit faster!)
Tyre wear is my biggest reason for making changes. On track with standard suspension geometry, you absolutely tear through the shoulders of tyres. But most OE setups don't have sufficient camber adjustment or roll resistance to avoid this. This puts us in the hand of aftermarket changes.
I imagine even for road cars, my M3 that I drive on weekends exclusively on twisty mountain roads would benefit from those changes more than your M3 that you mainly drive to work on the freeway?
I'm also wondering how stiffer bushings, such as poly ones, might help with that too. I've not ever seen any real objective data on that.
Is this a Miata in S2000 yellow? 🤭
Did he sell the s2000? I don’t even recall
@@Fee.1 yeah he sold the s2000 a year and a half ago.
@@jakekiedaisch2279 did he put a roots blower on the Miata too? I bitched at him for choosing a belt driven turbo(supercharger) in the s2000 and told him he mischaracterized it etc but iirc he actually rectified all that when he got the Miata? Been a crazy couple years ago so I can’t even tell you if I’m dreaming that or not
@@Fee.1 Yeah he put a roots style supercharger on the miata in the form of the Eaton kit.
@@jakekiedaisch2279 thanks, all caught up now
Great video Jason! Suspension has been a matter of many discussions and I think you nailed it.
Haven't watched the video yet but I can tell you that putting coilovers on my miata was my best 1k ever spent on a car (and I've probably spent over 15k on mods in my life) It increased the handling by an unbelievable amount, also the comfort increase, and plus it made the car look better.
I woll now watch the video to understand why you wrote this title :)
Most people that do changes to the vehicle... are replacing old components... not new stuff so any change is generally going to make it feel better.
GP_Motorsports for a second I thought you said changing to BC. So I was gunna make a joke about their coilovers but now I can't and I'm deeply saddened.
Suspension: As soft as possible, as hard as necessary.
You always answer questions I've wondered about. Very cool!
Great video! Clarifies a lot. Afterwards I went out to the garage and softened up my coilover settings a bit now that I know that it’s better to be more compliant on the street.
“Damping.”
It’s the small things that solidify our faith in Jason’s engineering content.
BMWs already are pretty tuned for performance from the factory. Did tire rack do any testing on cars that from the factory are not so tuned from the factory?
All cars are like that. Journalists are pleased by good steering response and fun driving experience, not by comfortable ride. So cars with stiffer suspension sells better in most segments, but definitely in segments where a buyer would consider aftermarket parts.
I also thought that. Are people swapping suspensions on their new BMW? I think it just shows BMW and the performance companies have similar engineering goals. It would be interesting to see the parts installed on a 1st gen Miata, a really old BMW or something that could benefit from 10-20+ years of progress.
@@Hot_Guac People are often changing suspensions on brand new Mustangs for example.
Totally agree once worked with a GM engineer that only job was fuel level sensors. My god the amount of thought behind each thing is amazing. You can find books that layout all the math behind design an quickly realize most cars are already optimized.
Love these style vids cruising and talking!!! Love EE!
Loved the video. I think most people do it for the lowered look overall things. But yes some for feel and performance as well. I know I’m gonna change my suspension mostly to lower my car and close up the wheel well gaps. But honestly would be nice to see if someone else has more data on this subject. But either way always enjoy your videos and enjoy learning more about cars🤓
Closing the wheel gap is a performance benefit 😀
And a quantifiable one!
living that fitment life! not even moving and it looks fast...
If car has gap, then car is crap.
Fitmentlations 4:58
It depends! Lower COG is good, however reduced suspension travel is (usually) bad. Realigning the suspension arms such that the roll moment is a greater distance (and the car actually rolls MORE than before) is also bad. So it all depends. Ideally, the factory setting will be low "enough" and designed correctly, or the car can be lowered a little bit more (say 20-30mm) without messing up the geometry. :)
Definitely an awesome video! I’m surprised by how little “upgrading” suspension really upgrades the vehicle performance. I’m considering buying aftermarket suspension and want the lower ride height and spent countless hours trying to research the performance benefit. There seems to not be much of one but personalizing your own car to how you want it to feel/look should be worth your money after some research. I’m glad I watched this video, phenomenal job Jason!
Wining 3 tenths in 29 seconds is a lot, in a track lap it's a second more or less which is an insane improvement and you can feel you are able to keep more speed and have a better balance. Even if the numbers are small the difference is big !
Thank you for this! These noobs don't realize that 1% is an eternity in motorsport.
@@cooprdog3793it literally says road cars on the title lmao
I love how explaining everything clearly and focus on driving simultaneously...
Professional driver on closed road. Do not attempt.
:)
i think that changing suspension is a feeling thing or preparing your car for a more track car feel. For a sporty daily driver (ie: no super huge mods to the car) the suspension is for the feel.
Well done! BTW that road through that forest is amazing! Definitely a perfect fit for a convertible. You touch one great topic. Some people have older cars and want better performance and modify their suspension. I get that. I have a 2019 Honda Civic Type R and the Honda engineers have dialed in this chassis to perfection. You combine that with the 3 adjustable damper settings and I am not changing a thing. I am just going to maintain what I have and use my money on another vehicle for different purposes such as getting a RWD convertible like this Miata to enjoy epic drives like this. Again, well done and keep up the great work!
It’s good to be informed on the results of mods. I think feel IS worth the cost, just like buying an exhaust to make a car sound more aggressive even if the performance gains are marginal. The only reason for buying a sports car is because it triggers and emotional response when driving it, if a mod makes the driving experience more enjoyable then it’s worth the money. :)
You uploaded 3 minutes ago and you already have 3 dislikes, who the hell dislikes a video without even watching it?
Big suspension
Haters will be haters
The modified suspension Bois
I actually suspect that many thumbs down are accidental mouse slips or finger slips, and people meant to press thumbs up.
Boyracers and keyboard warriors who have spent a gazillion on worthless coilovers for their pandas
Miss my ND Miata. Favorite driving car I’ve owned. Just sooo much fun.
The guy on the opposite side of the road at 3:41 : "Honey, i saw a guy in a yellow car on the road, he was doing me strange signs i still don't understand."
Once again, a great video, easy to understand explanation ...
This will help a lot to save $ they actually don't need to spend ..
Thank you for this video .
I really enjoyed watching it ..
Greatings from M sia
Suspension can be a huge supporting mod that is good to do before adding more power. You don't want to learn that you need coilovers while spinning out on turn 3
Love the Miata video style.
Great video Jason. I upgraded my suspension with OE equipment of the top end model of my car model. I did everything: shocks, springs, lateral links, subframe improvements. Even the same factory alignment.
The car stayed comfortable and feels much more predictable. Tests by journalists show it to be faster without being less comfortable. What definitely helps me as a driver is the ‘point and shoot’ predictability of the ride without tricky stuff like snappy oversteer.
I trusted the factory with all their testing more than an aftermarket set. I think I was right, but I would love to hear your opinion about upgrading to OE (top end models).
Thank you for the informative video, and being an honest guy.
I’m test driving a 2016 Miata club tonight. You helped me make my mind up
If you like small roadsters you can't go wrong! I bought my 2016 Club new in summmer 2016, it's survived 5 years of daily driving and 55k miles so far flawlessly without any repairs other than regular maintenance. It puts a smile on my face every time drive it. Hell, I smile every time I even look at it haha.
@@Slyons89 I bought it 😃
@@engdallal wholesome section right here
@@engdallal Hell yea! congrats!
I placed an order yesterday for a set of Coilovers. I do not think I am going to regret the purchase. I do think they can make a really big difference on say, my Miata NB2.
"But by HOW MUCH, in numbers?"
Nice look, and great points!
This video was very helpful. Even though I'm like performance I won't be changing my ND2 - but I don't do any racing.
In most cases, I've found that alignment changes (specifically caster and camber, but also toe) will have much more effect on actual handling performance than all the fancy components, though often at the cost of increased tire wear. However most modern suspensions don't allow for caster or camber adjustment without adjustable aftermarket bits.
Also, simply lowering a car won't do much unless it positively affects the roll center as well. In many cases, lowering a car drops its center of gravity, but actually raises its roll center, thereby resulting in a zero or negative gain in performance. So it ends up being mostly a cosmetic change.
but.. . but... rear sway bar????
(my car just doesn't have one, lmao)
Rear bar is a HUGE deal on a FWD car. Even just harder bushings than OEM is noticeable. If your car came with a sway bar in a higher / sport trim level get one from the wreckers.
@@rotaxtwin Or just buy a new one. More safe. less rust.
@@rotaxtwin Nope, all models just don't have a rear sway bar, it's actually kinda funny. But kits exists that are pretty cheap, and I'm thinking of doing this...
@@LazerLord10 what car is it
Probably a rear twist-beam suspension. The bendable beam acts as the swaybar to a degree
totally agreed, thanks for pointing that out
Once again excellent vid and thought provoking - suspension set up needs to enhance confidence in the driving experience hence different stokes for different folks - OEM is the best compromise for the masses and per dollar - the driving experience is such a personal thing.
those back roads are gorgeous man
They also tested this on a bmw, bmw suspension is designed to be comfortable yes but also sporty. They should’ve used some kind of economy car and upgraded the suspension, there would be a much bigger difference because the suspension wouldn’t be designed for sportiness
It's totally worth it! Thrust and focus of the Tire Rack article is laying out options for subjective driving feel. G-force results are way down on the results list. Being a driver and finding a setup that matches your taste is the whole point!
Best CZcams channel I have found and have saved me thousands in unnecessary mods on my 124 spider. New Tires and wheels and its great. Don't mod it, until you break it!
Actually goodwin racing roadstersport racing springs are way better than stock Abarth. Just keep stock sway bars...
@@_anty_ I have a Classica w/ Enkei PF01 - 215/45/17 ECS Conti's... I might still do springs and shocks, but only to lower the car about an inch to help with roll and stance. It's more cosmetic than performance on street. (no autocross) Even Brian w/ Goodwin might agree with me. But, we do buy these cars as a toy. We like to play!
You are amongst the top five CZcams video series, period. As an engineer, I really enjoy your explanations.
“Good suspension should soothe your brow, not attack it with a pair of scissors.” - Jeremy Clarkson
Don't forget he said a bunch of bullcr*p too...
He just doesn't want his false teeth to pop out.
This was cool, thanks for the perspective
great video and explanation as usual!
Street cars are all about feel to me... so while comfort matters response does too. I find aftermarket stuff strikes a much much much much better balance between the two for me.
But I want them low lows!
yeah until you scrap the rims
@@chaserfanboii6455 "rims" 🤮
@Jesse Link 4 doesn't drink Coke what
Those yellow Bilstein shocks look good on your Mazda.
Beautiful road you're driving through
Good content. For people bashing the current MX-5 body role , the suspension is designed to cope with rough American back roads.
because when I think "Rough American Back Roads" I think "Miata" lol
@@bobbybologna3029 I don't know where live, but I can promise you there are an endless number of backroads in the more rural areas of the country that are a LOT of fun to drive, while at the same time are NOT smooth. Many of them with corners rough enough to bounce a stiffly sprung Mercedes sport coupe or an MX-5 that is modified to corner absolutely flat right off the road at speed.
I think it's just designed for older buyers and comfort... The 86 has (and S2000 had) a stiffer setup, designed more for fast response time of the chassis.
@@TassieLorenzo Believe what you will, but the philosophy of compliance to cope with rough American back roads behind the suspension tuning of the current generation MX-5 is as reported in a print magazine review after discussions with Mazda Engineers.
I really appreciate that you don't do that annoying intro that every youtuber seems to do "Wwwwwhat is up everybody! (blah blah blah) Don't forget to smash that like and subscribe button, hit that bell icon to turn on notifications! (blah blah blah) So without further ado, let's jump right into it!"
I have found from watching many of your videos that the live driving while explaining a subject is quite distracting. I do enjoy your explanations and your presentations in general, great work, thank you.
Jason, I would love it when you do these videos if you could also go into any limitations the test might have had. I.e. did they adjust the geometry and do roll centre correction properly for the aftermarket components or did they just slap them on there and test? Otherwise, thank you for helping keep the internet somewhat professional when it comes to car stuff
Very good video. Tire Rack selected a brand that tunes their cars for “performance handling”, while another manufacturer may not. Other brands may see more improvement from aftermarket parts. It does change suspension geometry and can cause other issues. Nice job EE
I'm curious what would be the result on a 2000 Ford (Mercury) Cougar or 2000 Opel Omega (Cadillac Catera) 🤔
The 6 dislikes are the slammed bois
I am a slammed boi, my fender liners don’t look too good
@@alexprag2866 just enjoy what you have dude🤙🔥🔥
the 3 dislikes are mistake, because in some countries thumbs down is good so... yeah everyone loved it ! :D
@@morrari690 😂😂
Lowering a car's ride height can aid handling in that it reduces the car's centre of gravity. The problem is, just "slamming" it does not take the suspension geometry and wheel motion as the suspension moves through its arks. It's at the extremes of suspension travel when the tyres are at their worst, in camber, toe, etc. Ideally, if you want to lower your car, move the suspension mounting points, while keeping them in the same relation in space.
the older you get, the more relevant this is!!!
Love the stock ND suspension, Michelins really help it too.
Yay, some more footage of you and the yellow Miata. Any possibility you can do another video on your experience since getting that new tuning with your supercharger? Has everything been great? More driving footage of you driving the Miata, please! :D
Me rocking adjustable coilovers with polly bushings "I'ma pretend I didn't see that"
Your car is needlessly harsh to drive and no one can change my mind.
@@ttiizationand you are welcome to any opinions you may conceive. I built the car for me, not you lol. In the same way that I prefer black and you may prefer yellow, attempting to change someone's mind on something so entirely pointless would be a waste of both of our energy. :)
Lets just hope you follow the 50k/1-year service interval on high load damper oil and check that poly regularly for cracking and lube.
@@ttiization maybe to you, but he didn't build it for you so get off your high horse and allow people to do what they want to their stuff.
I have a 2019 ND RF. I made suspension changes because they give me more confidence. I'm not saying that they actually made the car quicker, but they made me quicker.
Superb! Of course, this just begets some more questions and explorations. Jason, how about doing a full-blown comparison with not only suspension but with tires and wheels too on your Miata? Heck, make it real interesting by doing a Taguchi design of experiments (7 factors should be enough).
I would pay to see this
Great video, and as usual, this is very timely for me. I have an engine swapped (K24) Honda Insight (1800lbs). The added weight up front has lost me a lot of suspension travel, and so I've been exploring my options.
That needs stiffer springs and higher weight class on the tires. What did you end up doing since it's been a year?
@@infosneakr A shop in the midwest worked with Fortune to design a set of coilovers for the car. Check out ProfessionalAwesome.
I recommend a book called “how to make your car handle” by Fred Puhn... it’s an old book but a lot of stuff in it is still very relevant and there is some great advice in there regarding suspension tuning, modification, design and more! Solid book
I built my autocross (& track) car based on that book, and won my local class. Fred was a Mechanical Engineer and racer.
@@kevink2315 Damn that's wassup. I'm interested now!
I love that book
High Performance Handling is a top notch book for understanding suspension and handling.
One thing you didn't point out is old cars. If you have an Na miata a suspension upgrade makes sense because of how far the technology has come since that car was made + how old the old suspension is getting.
? 80s-90s car mechanicals aren't too far from modern...
@@cfg_form2122 but when suspension is that old it wont be as good as it was new
Yeah. But this is factory fresh vs upgrade. Old worn stuff isn’t an apples to apples comparison.
@@aygwm indeed it is. However in the title and video he doesn't explicitly mention that, he just talks about upgrading in general. My point is that going from old to new is a situation in which an upgrade is worth it
@@dylanmaclean2351 I think that’s a flawed assumption. You can come up with whatever excuse to “upgrade” but Jason argues that new stock parts perform as well as aftermarket parts to not be worth the upgrade.
Well done!
Your ND looked so good in yellow I just had to do it too!
I am 100% behind keeping the stock suspension on a car. Every road vehicle has a purpose. The biggest improvement I had in grip and handling was when I replaced my stock wheels and tires with lighter and stickier ones. Great video!
They build a road vehicle to a specification so that average person can scoot around. Unless it's a high performance car the stock suspension will have limitations
Putting tein coilovers in my Honda Fit daily made it just feel more fun to drive as well as a little more comfortable (I went with the softest option they make). I honestly did it to have like a finger when gap tho😂 yes I am fixing my roll center before anyone starts yelling at me😂
I swapped out the springs in my ND and called it good. Gave me the look I wanted and took out a bit of that leaning. Cheap and easy.
It would be very interesting if you also tackle this kind of topics for Motorcycles as well. I'd love the channel even more, and it would attract more audience