HOI4 Guide - When should I build Military Factories
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- čas přidán 22. 05. 2024
- #hoi4 #heartsofiron4
The Ultimate Guide on when you should switch over to Military Factories. Which is the best strategy, for how lond are you supposed to build Civs, when is it time to build mils. What will different Civ and Mil generate. The guide will give you a quick answer but also go in depth into the economy of HOI4 and help you to understand what actually happens with graphs and examples. The guide will also show exactly how different strats effect Germany and the UK
00:00 The Short Answer
0:39 Why listen to me?
1:20 Montage and simulator
2:31 Germany, Total output
4:59 Germany, Output/Day
7:24 UK, Total output
9:01 UK, Output/Day
10:41 Requests in the Comments and Outro - Hry
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71 cloaks made a similar video on this and made the same points you made but one of the biggest counter arguments for this was on a top comment about how when you’re at war you’ll need civs to repair railroads and infrastructure and you’ll also need it to upgrade your logistics. Another important thing for this is if you’re playing Germany for example is you’ll also need synthetic refineries for rubber and you’ll have much less rubber with a small civ industry
That can be a valid argument, but i think you need to analyse if the need of other production actually require more civs or if its just gut feeling. As Germany you conquer civs, which is a much more effective way of building your economy than actuall production of civs.
But who knows, that might be a follow up to this video. Making an in depth German analysis.
whilst needing civs to repair railroads, factories and infrastructure is important, it can be helped quite a lot by taking dispersed industry; not to mention having a few fighter wings on intercept enemy missions in your country's airspace.
The problem with building mills from the start is that you don't have enouph civs to buy resources you need to use all that military output.
Its a common point and will depend on which build you go for and the rate of your expansion into other countries. But as always, this gives you the basis for the economy, thats one important part of the game but not everything you need when prepping for your run.
@@hyggegaming The reason I think videos like yours are not very useful is that the spreadsheets don't consider the situation you are in, in the actual game. The only thing you look at is the output of guns when there are a variety of factors that impact production that are not considered here. The most prominent of which being the availability of resources, in base game if every major country has 150+ mills there are literally not enouph resources in the world to support every economy (this can be mitigated if everyone does some excavation). Not to even mention if you are not playing a historical game where you cannot easily tryhard and have to actually do diplo.
Had me at 2:20.... DATA driven tutorials. SO much better than some of the older guys that USED to make tuts. Excellent work. New sub from Texas, only 6 more from 1000 my friend. Congrats a bit early
Thanks a lot for the comment, nice to be able to help my fellow HOI4 enthusiasts :)
/TheRealBoppus
Great channel providing insight that all hoi4 fans yearn for. Keep up the great work. Look forward to seeing your channel keep growing.
Thanks mate!
If there is anything specific you want us to do next, just write in the comments and we’ll see what we can do :)
@@hyggegaming occupation laws is one that I can never quite wrap my head around. When is it best to go for which one ,will you gain enough compliance to be worth on a lesser occupation law etc.
Thanks for the idea, its not in the pipeline right now but now its on the idea list :)
@hyggegaming one item I struggle with, and it's probably something simple I'm overlooking, is when upgrading a ship model. How do I refit the existing ships in my fleet I'd like to improve with my upgrades on those models!
Something important you should keep in mind though is that later production is more useful than earlier production as this can be put to use to make newer and better equipment.
With the example of Britain here, you only unlock Spitfires by 1939 and you typically want to hold off building a lot of fighters until you do. So then I would say the strategy that lines up with max production per day on the day you unlock the spitfire.
Also, I'm curious if you included the need to import resources. Britain can get a lot from its colonies, but Germany can't and they start with very little tungsten and chromium, something you won't conquer much of and will need for your Barbarossa tank. Your aluminium is also quite limited with only about a 100 units available to you. You will run out and need to start importing around your 30th mil on planes.
That's not even to mention the oil and rubber you need to build synthetic refineries for.
All in all, I think this is just a little bit too much of a simplification. It's nice though as a good demonstration of how civ greeding really hurts you.
I love the charts!
This is a great channel, straight to the core of things and no nonsense
Chats is the way to play HOI4 :D Thanks for the comment, HOI4 is to complex to spend to much time with fillers in CZcams videos, so we focus on being on the point and im happy it goes through :)
One aspect to keep in mind though. If you start with civs you end up with more military IC in higher tech equipment.
I agree, that’s really important and the main reason why i show output/day, so you can see when the civ strategies starts to give more equipment. Its always a balance, how many old rifles is a new one worth
Hyggegaming accounts for that Germany will have capped benelux, france, poland by 1940 so there are plenty of building slots. @@medusalem9485
@@hyggegaming I supose i didnt used the industrial/military ministry to improve this numbers right? only the MEFO bills? because there is a huge difference in numbers with industrial captain, specially for soviets.
I think yellow is the best as it allows you to build more airports radar anti air railways by barbarossa i rather have good supply on the eastern front than 6 more tanks
There is always things to consider in HOI4, and the infrastructure for Barb is really important. Usually i have the industry to support that even though i go mils early, thats what the French industry is for :)
But the important thing is being able to make well founded decisions and i hope you gained some more knowledge from the video. Then i hope everyone draws their own conclusion from what they need in their game :)
My takeaway from this is Mils from start as Germany is a no brainer, but for the UK, it depends what you want to do. If you want to play the long game and let France fall, I'd build Civs til Jan 1937. I often delay Mils as UK simply because the UK does not need a large standing army to defend its island or its empire. Leverage a large airforce and navy to strangle Italy and Germany before committing your army. 20 divisions can hold all of Africa if you cut off Italy's supplies for example. And the extra Civs can be used for trade, construction, repairs, etc. I often find research is more valuable than production as the UK in the early game.
When I play UK, I'm not thinking about how to contain Germany--Germany is stuck in Europe with no navy surrounded by enemies. I'm thinking about how to be in a position to prevent Italy and Japan from taking anything of value by late 1941--wouldn't want to let the Americans lead the free world lol.
I'd say Mils from the start if you go to war at the Munich Conference (or decide to defend France) but Civs til Jan 37 in most other circumstances. You can easily remove the Axis from Africa and even save Norway and Greece if you're clever.
Out of curiosity, does your model account for when you change mobilization laws? UK can switch to partial mob when the Spanish Civil War fires if they want, or they can wait til Japan declares on China, or even later. Depends how you want to spend your PP.
There is a lot of great points in here and evenrything will depend on how you play the game and whom you play it against. As we mostly play MP, Germany/Italy will be a huge threat against the empire amd you need to plan accordingly. Thats why i wanted to include the mil output/day segment, just to give everyone the possibility to draw their own conclusions and in your case i do agree that a later mil-build seems like the way to go.
The model accounts for every possible aspect in the game, but of course, some calculations will change depending on when you choose to change economy laws or your choices in the focus-tree. When i test different contries i usually use PP, focuses and research to increase mil-producion as a basis.
I think you've drawn the wrong conclusion as you are forgetting about your ability to build supply. The 37 start is clearly optimal. I have yet to see a germany that runs into problems until they fight the soviets.
Good video, mate! Thanks for the info
Thanks for the feedback, there will be more economy videos coming this fall!
Excellent, clear actionable analysis! Thanks!
Thanks for the feedback!
most people's economic idea: self-sustaining civilian sector with free trade ideals for maximum industrial gain!
my economic idea:
*Build mills, Conquer the enemy, Plunder they're industry, Build more mills, Repeat untill there is notheing left.*
The numbers supports your way of handling the industry :)
I'm greatly enjoying your channel and the tips you provide. I only play the BLACK ICE mod, and some of your tips greatly help my game play!
Thanks for the feedback and im happy to hear our content has an impact on the battlefield :)
Nice content!! i am in dire need of a germany mp guide, 99% of the information i find online is very outdated so it would be a huuuuuge help to the entire community.
Thanks! When you play mp, are you playing TFB or no mods. I could easily make guides after playing a mp game since all the groundwork is already there, but my gut feeling tells me that the TFB community is to small for guides
@@hyggegaming i play with no mods, thanks for answering and am waiting for the new video!!
Nice video, attempts to tackle a forever hoi4 question. Link to spreadsheet though? Suspect things like trading for resources is ignored, infra in state is ignored, etc. Then there's the issue that as the UK you won't get the all-important fighter-2 till later (late 37 in MP, late 38 in SP), and there's not a huge amount of point have MILs building useless guns-1. Still nice crack at it.
Trade is included but i make it easy and go with a fixed amount, like UK having a trade surplus of 5 for the period depending on what i see in the playthrough. Infra is included.
Everything that effects economy is in the model and everything that effects factory-output is included. So the model works fine, ive also tested it a couple of times against what i see in game and it is accurate.
I use it for most of my MP games to minimize my prep time
Thanks for the reply. Would love to see the spreadsheet - I've toyed with the idea but have been too lazy tbh. One thing I do wonder about is staggering civ/mils for a bit (e.g. 1 civ for every 3 mils until end of 38). Hope to see you in an MP game one day! PS your conclusion is spot on: most people civ greed...
Great video overall, I do have a question on your method, did you take into account the fall of productivity when switching equipment or upgrading the production line? And are focuses taken into account?
Thanks, regarding gearing its in there as as soon as a new factory is built. I have made som calculations to the losses by switching production and it does not affect the results that much if you go dispersed, which is what i did in the simulation (partly to make this a lesser problem). The thing with switching is it really depends on how many switches you do and form what to what, since it matters if you go from tanks to other tanks or from infantry equipment to tanks.
Focuses is taken into account.
Regards/ TheRealBoppus
Hello, I might be late to the party - but I would like to add something. First of all nice work. The point you are making comes across clearly. On the other hand; military factory output is not all the civs do.
A player needs civs for a lot of other reasons, like trading or building spy agencies and stuff like that.
Not to speak of supply lines, radar and so on and so forth.
Another aspect you are totally ignoring is naval production. As UK, and even more so as Japan or Italy you will want not only to produce mills the entire time, but also dockyards.
All of that is severely diminished when operating only with starting civilian count AND will therefore also eat into the mil building later on.
Hello!
Thanks for the feedback! I agree with you on most points. Leaving out dockyards where totally intentional, if and when you should build dockyards are a big question in itself. Im always trying to get the scope down and make more compact videos, so you learn without having to spend two hours to do so :)
Regarding to the point of needing civs for other stuff. I rever run out of civs to the point that i dont have any for trade or building radars. I might have to stop the production of mils late game. But i rather have 100 mils and not being able to build more lategame, than having 80 and more coming in. Since that means I already have a bigger army and will out produce the 80 mil guys for a reasonable time.
But the beat thing is that early mils gives you the opportunity to as the axis quickly take more industry from your opponent or as the allies, hold on to more than you otherwise would have.
But with that said, my goal with this was giving a platform and the statistics to make great decisions for yourself. I now know how different strategies will pan out productionwise. Then it meets the realities of each country in game and HOI4 is so compelx no strategy is the best everywhere or not depending on all your other plans.
//TheRealBoppus
@@hyggegaming Thank you for your answer. Looking forward to the "should I build dockyards" video!
It would be interesting to see the curves for nations that require later war join dates, like USSR and USA.
Also great video mate!
Thanks for the feedback and input :) The most votes for the next one has fallen to the Soviets and i gree that the US is a interesting country since they are a lot different from all the other countries.
Subscribed let’s see some France stats
I love France, ill see what we can do :)
Curious how this applies to the BICE mod. Similar to vanilla in that MEFO bills give Germany a massive buff to building mils, though as you show with Britain, even a country without that buff does better generally for the first few years of the war by building mils immediately. Interestingly though, the mod massively decreases the cost of civilian factories, and so I presume this would allow building civs to snowball faster and thus be viable even for early war.
I’ve never played BICE and the cost of civilians might alter the calculations a lot. Something i have noticed is that many modders both alter the prices for factories and also the production output for civilians and mils, so a cheaper price can be deceiving.
//TheRealBoppus
Great video! Soviets pls
The Soviet is in the lead!
GODDAMN SPREADSHEETS LETS GO
A game where spreadsheets isn’t needed is not worth playing :)
Just to understand correctly - you are referring to when you should start building mils EXCLUSIVELY?
More building Mils in comparison to Civs, you still might want to build supply hubs, AA, naval bases and infrastructure because you lack resources in 1942. But my take is you should do those things when you need them and not in the early games when you want mils :)
//TheRealBoppus
Lol, heck why there is Rose of wind 8end star at 1:26 in preview on yt on this video?
Its just part of a montage :)
/TheRealBoppus
hi, i love to play italy.
In this country i construct civ factories until I have enough to fully equip the land I conquer (in mil factories). I like to have maybe around 80 civ factories in order to have 5 full construction ligne + ressources exchange (or special projet intel).
Do you think it worth it ?
If you go to war in 1939, i would build mils from the start, build a better army to conquer more and build less :)
//TheRealBoppus
@@hyggegaming
Hi,
Thanks for the advise. I can produce more if i start by building mils but i have another consideration.
My conquest are (yougoslavie, grece, turquie, middle east). These lands have poor infrastructure or railway.
This is a problem to get supply for my armies. If i build civs factory (around 80) i can construct more mils, infra, ports, airbase, raffinery, etc. So i can use my conquest to upgrzde otaly power until 1942 - 1943 . Germany at that time get his pick earlier, but russia start to conter germany during these period (42-43). The addition of italy power can help axis to overflow russia at a crucial time.
I play in team so i think with other country perspective. 😀
Now how about the Factory conversion meta?
I know it's probably a "just don't" kinda thing, but I'm curious.
The fun part is that I started building the calculator just to test that thing out. I was playing the Soviets in MP and wanted to try something new. So its a great question. With that said, conversion is not worth it. As in the video, you want to go Mils quite early, destroying mils for 6-12 months to then rebuild them wont be viable.
//TheRealBoppus
“I built an economy simulator to optimize my war simulator”
I love my fellow HOI players 😂
Haha, i didn’t really think of it that way 😅
Were these stats taken with concentrated or dispersed industry ? Would the results change at all?
I used dispersed this time but with all time I’ve spent analysing Concentrated vs Dispersed last weeks i would say that the conclusions are the same, probably concentrated would actually widen the gap between civs and mils to the Mil-factories advatage, but not with a lot.
//TheRealBoppus
I built one too but I noticed discrepancies with the base game.
This was a huge project, but i had some extra time during the pandemic. I’ve tried it out a lot of times, it pinpoints the amount of factories in an exact manner. Production output is also right on, the only thing that i want to add now is a mil-factories line calculator. So i can dry-run exactly how many factories i have on each equipment during the entire game. With that i dont need to actuallt test run my builds and save a lot of time that way. I estimate its a 5 hour job so i just need to get around to it :)
//TheRealBoppus
How about Italy??
Mild from the start ass well??
Hello! Sorry for a slow reply, have had an crazy week IRL :)
Yeah, as Italy is would definitely go mils!
//TheRealBoppus
I build it at start then :D
🥳🥳
Is there ever a reason to convert factories?
Ie, would it ever be worth it to convert Mils to Civs then build Mils with the MEFO buff?
I’m sure it’s difficult to factor in _new technology/infrastructure/trade/repairs/etc,_ but curious if an experienced player could find a special use case.
The first reason for me to start constructing the mega sheet i have today was actually to try that out, but i only did it in the mod we are playing. With that said, i am very sceptical if its ever worth in a historical scenario, the numbers point towards not building civs at all or for a very short time. So converting just destroy the mils you should be building soon anyways.
But if you want to be an industrial powerhouse in 1950, then it’s another question:)
////TheRealBoppus
@@hyggegaming Thanks for the response and the great content.
Very well done video but it dosen't take in to the count. The trade you are getting, trade for resources, concentration buffs... but still very nice video.
Sorry for a late reply and thanks for comment!
Concentration buffs and everything is in there. I can manually add trade into it, but thats a huge topic for itself, building stuff where you have to buy resources and when ita worth it. I wanted to make the analysis as straightforward as possible so you can draw your own conclusions depending on your build.
What i can say about trade is that building a lot of civs and then maxing out mils gives you a more uneven resource need. First you will more have resources than you need and then a huge need for trade when the mils come online lategame.
//TheRealBoppus
Civilian greed until 38' is my choice (i like construction) 🚶🏼♂️
Haha, i also love construction, when i played single-player i usually built civs much longer and played the game more as a succsessor to Vicy2 than a war-game :) But in MP you want to things, to have fun, and to win, so i had to change apporach
Can you do one for the Soviets?
Thanks for the request, the next one will be from public demand and right now Soviet is in the lead :)
äntligen en till dag1 mills enjoyer
I follow the numbers anywhere it takes me, they will be tweaking the economy a little bit in the next DLC. So i will make an update to the Calculator and see if anything changes
I am never NOT building mills. #thisistheway
This is the way!
you forgot about resources to produce goods and consumer goods..... still need to build civ since photosynthesis don't work no more
As a person who regularly plays into the 1950s, I always civ greed ;)
Before i started with MP, i mostly played HOI like i play Victoria, building a nation. So i dont know if civ-greed even is enough to describe it :) But when the Germany tanks roll in to Ukraine 1941, you will be punished if you play for a Soviet golden period 1955.
//TheRealBoppus
could you chare the document?
It´s a trade secret, but we will have more videos like this coming, and if you want me to do a specific country, please write in the comment. The next economy-guide will be after public demand, so write the country your are interested in and i will take that in consideration :)
Next economy analysis vote
France 1
Soviet 1
We who go 100 civ Germany ...
There is a huge charm in building a great insustry, its not wrong in any sense, im just saying that it will hamper your war effort :)
Build mills when u have 60 civs
Please elaborate? :)
@@hyggegaming so when you have a sufficient industry as Germany and when you have enough infrastructure and railways, then you can make mils
Civilian factories in practicality are really bad.
If you’re playing as a minor nation you don’t have time to do nothing and wait as the game unfolds. You either spring into action and start annexing countries or puppeting the AI or you lose.
If you’re a major country, then you’re already at a massive advantage so not much to say there.
You are wrong full output dont let you win you need mills and op when y starting produce good eq i dont need good output in 36 37 38 i need in 41 btw i think that your compare didint show potencial of civs when you build infra, convert factories hardtech speed of building and demagog civs builds are better in the highest level of multiplaer game on vanila everyone make civs in old version 500 factories soviet didnt big suprise
We might not agree when you need the equipment. I totaly agree that later tech is much better, but a lot of the game is decided before 1941.
A quick France/Poland
Seelöwe
Denmark/Norway
El-Alamein
Further push towarsd Africa and India
Everything that could give one side a clear advantage going forward and more factories for your own team to use.
Infra is something i will be looking into in the future with its own guide and why not conversions also
bro you should be making like 7 figures at a hedge fund, not here lol
Haha, sounds like a plan for life, but i would say HOI is more fun :)
/TheRealBoppus
so if the strat is mils from the beginning when are you building civs? or are these graphs showing if you only build mils from start of game onwards, strat 2 build civs till jan '37 then build only mils, and lastly is the last strat build civs till july '37 and then only mils? Just want to make sure I fully understand where you got these numbers from.
That 100% correct, 2 strategies where i build civs to those dates and one mils only