I Cut a High End Canyon Carbon Fiber Frame in Half... Here Is What I Found!
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- čas přidán 18. 02. 2023
- Well, well, well, look who's become a bit of a carbon fiber connoisseur (not me that’s for sure)! I have, however, been diving headfirst into the world of carbon, and let me tell you, it's been a wild ride. From cutting a bike frame in half to reviewing cheap Chinese carbon frames.
And speaking of cutting frames in half, that's exactly what I did in a previous video. I got my hands on a Trifox X10 frame and sliced it right down the middle. It was both terrifying and exhilarating all at once. Today I’ve got my hands on a Canyon CF SLX frame (fancy lingo, I know) thanks to the kind folks over at Carbon Bike Repair UK. And yes, we will be chopping this one down the middle and looking at it under a microscope!
But it's not all about destroying frames for fun. I also had the pleasure of getting some hands-on experience with carbon bike repair thanks to the folks over at Carbon Bike Repair UK. Those guys really know their stuff!
Help the channel by checking out my bike kit recommendations - kit.co/JourdainColeman
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Watch my cheap carbon fiber frame-cutting video here - czcams.com/video/wn60LWtKgx0/video.html
Rob's website from Carbon Bike Repair UK is here - carbonbikerepair.co.uk/wp/
I got a message under your last video that just seemed kinda odd.. it said you had something for me and but I just wanted to make sure it was you and not some asshole scammers.
The "streaks" or "jam" that he believes is a layer of epoxy at approximately 6:25 is actually a layer of composite orientated at a different angle. The vast majority of this frame is highly likely fabricated with unidirectional prepreg (to reduce weight) meaning all the fibers in the prepreg ply are orientated in the same 0 degree direction. These plies then get laid up at different angles to give the laminate strength in many directions. When you cross-section a composite laid up with different angled plies, the different orientation plies appear as "rings" or layers. Depending on the orientation of the fibers to the cut, they reflect light differently hence the different appearance. Additionally, to see the cross-section (and composite plies) properly, the samples need polished with ever finer sandpaper and examined at a higher magnification than in this video. Google image search "carbon composite cross-section" and you can see many high magnification photos of this phenomenon.
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This
Sorry, could it be just some glass fiber layers?
So good you wrote that comment! It really shows there is a lot to learn for the community...
Thank you Jourdain for your time and efforts! Your videos are more and more interesting! Keep going!!
Glad you like them!
Holy cow! I watch quite a few videos about how to build with carbon fiber, but seeing this stuff cut open for a change is super valuable information! There are far more people out there willing to share the knowledge about how to build with carbon fiber than there are people detailing cross sections and teaching what it mean. It's honestly a bit surprising that he's willing to go into such detail about a subject rarely documented on camera.
The question in not whether the $3000 frame better than $300 frame. The question should be, is the $300 frame good enough for 95% of the weekend riders?
It's a good questions for suer 🤔
This is very educational, thank you for taking the time to make this video and explaining the differences
Glad you enjoyed it!
Wow this is an expensive one. Thank you Rob for sharing some of your knowledge and Thank you J for going to the extra mile. Great video as always.
Hey man! Good to hear from you. Also good to hear that you enjoyed the video 👌🏼
I love this kind of content! Keep up the great work. I just found your channel and I’m glad I did.
Welcome aboard! Glad you enjoy the videos
Thank you for doing this. It was amazing to watch and compare a Chinese frame with a brand name frame.
Glad you liked it! There are more videos on the way as well 👌🏼
I have the same year Canyon frame. Thanks for putting my mind at ease. Will I had no doubt it was an excellent frame.
Glad you enjoyed the video 👍🏽
Hambini says riding a Canyon is like riding a prison toilet 😂
Thank you for the carbon fiber education 👍🙏
I was talked out of buying a carbon bicycle by a specialized sales person who sold me the Crossroads 2.0 as a daily commuter and I love it. Its 31.5 US pounds or 14.29KG and only has seat post suspension, otherwise stiff aluminum frame & steel fork, with 2 chain ring gears and 7 in the cassette so 14 total gears to select :) I love the look and seems high quality :) made in Cambodia too lol
Great work as always! If you could cut a fork to compare to Trifox it would be neat, especially since that's where the biggest issue was with the X10.
Yeah, unfortunately these frames didn't have some (beggars can't be choosers hahaha). Rob did donate some Pinarello forks as well though and that video is coming soon 👍🏽
When Jourdain Coleman posts a new video I press like!
Nice video as always.
Glad you enjoyed 👌🏼
Thanks for the awesome video series on carbon frames! I am loving it!
What always worried me is the safety of these chinese frames, but in general the Trifox at least seems to be safe. Of course they may be bulky compared to top western brands. What I think would be soo cool is comparing on the same price range…
Glad you are enjoying the videos! There seems to be plenty of intrigue looking inside these frames so I'll keep the videos coming. 👍🏽
youre wrong the trifox was not safe(remember the fork)
Its in the details, a overbuild frame(like the trifox) is worth nothing when its not strong enough at a critical Point(the Forks steering tube).
So you get what you paid for. Yes most of the Trifox was strong(maybe to strong(heavy, not compliant enough) in some areas but the wekest link(fork steer tube) was not strong enough so the whole system will fail.
agreed , comparing on the same price point is important. Most carbon frames are made in Asia, China, Taiwan, Vietnam , both frames could have come out of China.
It's incredible how little material is used in some places, like the top tube for example, I mean, I know that's the whole idea of weight reduction, but the reality of it is crazy!
Yeah it's much narrowed! But with the entire frame structure comes good strength! It does make me cringe though when I see people clamping the top tube though.
Awesome job! One word of advice, you keep saying the top tube is "tapered". It's actually called "butted" tubes. This technique is used on steel/aluminum tube as well. This is where the ends of the tube are thicker for stronger connections at bottom bracket and headset area, whereas the middle of the tubes are thinner to save weight. There are single butted, double butted, and triple butted tubes. All using the same technique.
Awesome, I've been waiting for this video! I'm new to your channel and have been watching your videos now for a little bit, I love the content. I've been learning a lot!
Welcome aboard! Good to hear you are enjoying the videos 👍🏽 - I have many more in the pipeline
@@JourdainColeman I'm subscribed and looking forward to them! 😺👍
The more I see carbon, the more I want a titanium frame
Similar to that of triple and double butted steel and aluminum frames. The steel and aluminum are isotropic and not the composite material, therefore material orientation is important. Tube shape will also affect the composite layup. You need to compare same shape tubes to prove your analogies.
crabson fire!!!! lol@ "jam in the sandwich"
There is an inprint near the bottom bracket of the Canyon meaning that they certainly use a solid core (like wax) as opposed to inflatable bladers like in the Trifox.
It's not hard to make a safe carbon frame if the process controls are well-established by the supplier. There are MANY chinese suppliers capable of building a safe product. The real hard work is tuning the frame to behave how you want it to. An automotive analog - Porsche 911 vs Chevy Camaro. They both use a lot of the same materials, and both are safe, but they both feel radically different to drive. Canyon has a proper engineering group; a lot of these unbranded chinese bikes can be and often are perfectly safe, and can often even ride well with good geometry, but the tuning of the layup is nuanced, and requires engineering work to both define all the performance requirements (it isn't often enough to be lightweight enough and safe enough) and then design the layup to accomplish those requirements.
Thanks for cutting up your frames, it is always fun to see inside the tubes.
Did I mis the fork cutting or was there no fork? Would have loved to see the difference with the trifox
„Dry“ carbon does not mean that it’s delaminate easier or puncture easier
Often its the other way around (as long as there is enough matrix (to cover all fibers) there is no strength, stiffness, toughness being gained by increasing the volumetric percentage of the matrix in a composite. It’s the other way around as long as every fiber is sufficiently „wetted“ less matrix means higher fiber content and more strength, stiffnessand better behavior while failing
Great video. Regarding the 'dry vs. wet' carbon discussion towards the end of the video, I would be interested in Rob's opinion if those types of different manufacturing techniques are influenced by costs? Is one cheaper than the other, thus preferred based on the target price of the bike? Great content!!
Good question, next time I see him I'll ask 👍🏽
Almost every single bike frame out there is done with prepregs and usually out of oven autoclave which means they will have a removable core be inflatable bladder or just a vaccume back set up as a tube in the molds The whole thing will then end up in a vacuum bag and put under vacuum and then baked in a oven. The bike industry has seemingly decided against using autoclaves most likely due to expense but the likes of trek and specialized would have the budget for it one would think. That would then bake the part while putting it under immense pressure. There is no actual thing as wet vs dry carbon - it's just the technique that gets resin into the weave. Prepeg (dry aka already resin filled) and or infused (wet out - usually done with vacuum lines. )
For the love of health please wear masks when cutting carbon
I wear a mask when cutting. The bays at Carbon Bike Repair have built in extraction 👍🏽
For the love of life please ride a metal frame
for the love of life please use a car on public roads
For the love of life please reduce your carbon footprint.
@@Goggles1 your fear is pure artificially generated panic … life will go on whatever happens. If it a bit warmer or cooler - planet earth doesn’t give a damn! You‘re living in abrubble full of fear and ridiculous panicking!
I forgot to subscribe. I couldve watched this thing a bit more earlier. Regardless this is very educational. Made me thought of being a bike engineer one day maybe haha!
Good to hear that you found the video useful 👍🏽
Super educational. Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Let me tell you - as a DIY mechanic on my own bikes, I'd rather have the thicker carbon frame to be able to lightly clamp the top tube instead of the seat tube when working on my bikes.
about the resin or epoxy ...they problably baked the bike twice or even three times..
i worked with carbon and composite.
making helmets and spoilers...
the build up process of a mold can be done in layers and baked ...and worked over ..sometimes this process can take days before the finale long bake in a conclave high bar pressure oven.
would you recommend to buy canyon slx?
Great imagery at 4:35 lol.
I'm so happy the Canyon frame is actually better! 😅 I was worried I paid too much for my 2 Canyons I've got hanging out in the shed. ❤️
The question in not whether the $3000 frame better than $300 frame. The question should be, is the $300 frame good enough for 95% of the weekend riders?
@@williamko4751 yeah I know, but it still makes me feel confident about Canyon. 95% "probably safe" is not good enough to make me feel confident on it personally.
@@williamko4751 The question, is the canyon 10 times better frame?, I may say nope, so I would go for something between the chinese and the canyon to get the best bang for the buck.
@@Mark-Huigen where did you get 95?
Even top Italian, there is no 100% FYI. So you pay much much more for 97% but afraid of 95?
Logic is a bitch!
@@williamko4751 Statistically, the difference in reliability between 99% safe and 99.9% is HUGE. For some Engineering projects the aim is 99.999999% to be EXTRA safe. Generally speaking, we talk about Availability for this (how much uptime of a system if you would use it all the time) and the difference in a year use between 99% and 99.9% is that the 99% would have a down time (so needing repairs or juste doesn't work anymore) of 3.65 days and the 99.9% 8.77 hours.
You should take all of the cut up bike frames you've acquired and epoxy them all together into a Frankenstein frame in the hopes of actually being able to put together a rolling bike?
Would be interesting if the canyon sl (not slx) frames are as good and if their carbon is less dry
Forget the carbon dry thing it’s bullshit
assuming you mean a lower end carbon frame the use of high modulus fiber(high stiffness fibers) should be less and the standard or intermisiate fibers Used instead have higher elongation before they brake so the frame should be tougher
A western frame made in Taiwan. Love it.
I’m still hoping you will examine a more entry-level frame from a western manufacturer. This is the market segment that would be most interested in Chinese carbon frames. Also, could it be said that the Chinese frames are using thicker carbon because they are playing to their safety image?
All frames are made in Asia. There are essentially NO true western manufacturers.
What was the difference in price between the two frames 🤔
The old adage remains true: you get what you pay for.
The question in not whether the $3000 frame better than $300 frame. The question should be, is the $300 frame good enough for 95% of the weekend riders?
Great video! Now do a post-2020 Time frame.
I'd love to if I can get my hands on one!
Can you compare a western mtb frame to a road bike frame
it is sad they don't offer stiffer version of the canyon ultimate. i have one and so far so good but that would be interesting to test exactly same frame but with more thickness. but it know canyon wont give a shit about my wish.
.Whether it's Canyon or Trifox, the carbon work is on the whole of a very average or even pitiful quality compared to the exorbitant price at which the frames are sold. So when smart journalists talk about "carbon aviation" it's funny. All these pieces would end up in the trash without any possible doubt. Very interesting video and so revealing of what carbon bikes are. ( sorry for the quality, it's a translation)
I wonder what are Robs top 5 brands of carbon bikes?
I wonder how many factories there are in China/Taiwan cranking-out these plastic frames in various shapes with various brand names slapped on them? I also wonder about Rob's "graveyard" - so many bikes somehow damaged to the point they're not worth repairing - what does that say about making bicycles from "black fiberglass?"
Awesome job Jourdain. This is truly one of the more interesting bike content series going right now. Did you take a look at the Canyon fork to see how it compares to where the Trifox ultimately failed inspection? If I remember right, the Trifox was generally safe up until that part, yeah?
Unfortunately don't have the forks for the frames I am cutting. I do have a set of Pinarello forks that Rob gifted so that video will be coming soon 👍🏽
@@JourdainColeman I'll be looking forward to that one!!!
What is the weight limit of these frames ?
Would these bike be recommended to heavier riders >220lbs ?
Is there a recommended maximum weight ?
I think it's normally around 120kg or 264 pounds. It does vary frame to frame though so I'd check. Maybe some of the strong gravel or all road bike frames would be good 👍🏽
Be interesting to do this experiment with a winspace frame from China . They are supposed to be excellent
Elves vanyar framset test plish
I'm missing the fork comparison, since that's the most safety critical area
Unfortunately don't have the forks for this frame. I do have a set of Pinarello forks that Rob gifted so that video will be coming soon 👍🏽
I wonder... Should I use an alloy frame or carbon on an indoor trainer?
Whatever you can get your hands on. If you where buying a frame then Id do Alloy because it's cheaper
Should read the stories and look at the pictures and videos on busted carbon with canyon alot unhappy customers getting told not getting a replacement and poor customer service care put me right off the canyon I was away to buy this week! Now looking for something else
One of the reasons Trifox might use a lot of CF all around would be, IMO, to dispel the myth of "Chinese products are of low quality and would not last".
So at this point it's not that they are not doing RD, but they are busy establishing the reputation of a company that makes quality, long-lasting and dependable bikes.
And also watching the competition - you know - what works and what doesn't, what people want and are willing to pay for etc.
The “wrinkling” most definitely makes a difference! Those are all stress risers where the structure is more likely to fail under stress. You most definitely get what you pay for with composite frames.
Even top end brands fail beyond explanation. And there are cheaper (never heard) Chinese brands that can last half a decade. Mine I bought in 2017 , repainted it recently and still going strong. Maybe im just too careful.Sometimes being so adds years to the bike.
I could be wrong about this but I think Canyon used to use Giant for sourcing their CF frames and forks and that was probably true in 2018 but then Giant got too expensive and they moved to Quest Composites and it used to be you could see Canyon and Trek bikes on the Quest Composites site. Quest Composites are nowhere near as good as Giant in making CF frames so quite a drop in quality. If you look at the Quest Composites site and the factory images they are pretty grim to say the least. I personally wouldn't touch a Canyon or Trek with a barge pole nowadays made of CF not just because they are dire quality for the price but that factory doesn't make me very comfortable. Look at what they are sitting on, the cramped tables and the lack of air purifying to protect dust getting into the fibres. There is woman in one image who can't even wear her protective hat properly . I actually feel buying direct from China from a very good factory is much safer than buying from an importer who may change factories regularly and so quality is unknown.
I have a 2020 Trek Fuel Ex and I have ridden it TONS on every terrain possible. Jumps, drops, rocks etc. It has held up just fine. I am not a Trek fan boy per se but my bike itself continues to impress me and gives no issues. Also, Trek has best carbon warranty out of all the brands by far. I wouldn't judge their WHOLE world wide company and quality based on one person in an image online. their whole website looks like it is from 1990. Of course they don't want you to see all their good stuff.
@@jasonmccune9313 CF is made by hand so its not about all frames being bad its about the failure rate. CF frames have a very high failure rate compared to other frame materials but even then it may not be any more than 4% for the worst examples. I've seen somewhere a figure like 20-30% maybe significantly below their load rating because of imperfections in the frame but with normal weight riders perhaps 75kg or less the frames will be fine but for heavier riders its much higher risk as a much more significant number of frames would fail for those riders.
Again though we don't know which Trek frames are made by which manufacturer. Trek presents itself as a manufacturer for commercial reasons but fits more with an importer in how the business works and quality will surely be down to the manufacturer almost completely not the importer.
@bonzobanana1 yes I understand. This is the case for 99% basically for carbon, only maybe gorilla gravity actually makes their own frames and is not an importer. Pivot, Santa Cruz, trek,ibis, specialized,giant, Norco,canyon, YT, even yeti all get frames made from overseas. Honestly as long as I get my frame replaced under warranty if it fails. It's fine.
It would be interesting to see the difference compared to a very stiff and heavy track bike with tons of reinforcement to cope with the strongest riders in the world.
Thank you for clearly showing what I have always thought, but many refuse to believe: Chinese carbon frames are crap.
I didn't know you hate bike that much😂
😂😂 It hurts my soul cutting into these frames.
I don't think it is just R&D. There is also QC.
Spent about 500 miles on it and so far so good. czcams.com/users/postUgkxMesz3KOGEmwmvyKQfLfrRSUXLFzfVHZA Pros:1. Very light2. Solid quality build3. Fast delivery: It arrived 5 weeks earlier than expected.4. Easy assemblyJust a few cons but nothing major:1. Cheap tin tubes and had flat on first day... but not a big deal. I replaced the tubes.2. Seat is a bit uncomfortable but that's pretty much the same situation with most bikes.3. Seat post is a bit long/high for a smaller size 48 bike - had to saw 2 inch off to fit properly. The lowest setting is too high. The post locking system does not seem to hold well (perhaps because I saw 2 inch off).4. wheels are not tubeless compatible (from what I can tell)
The moral is stick to the main brands that have R&D.
Of corse it's still hard to justify $8000 for a top spec frame from an established brand 😫
Aiii. It hurts 😢
Atleast it's not like Boardman carbon bikes leaving the forming plastic bladders in the carbon that's showing when they snap!
Oh really. I haven't see this. I'll have a search
Guess i prefer the style of trifox frame, since it is more durable to crashes... Anyway if my Canyon Exceed CF SL 8.0 frame decide to crack some day, i will prob never buy again carbon frame bike, since i really hate fragile stuff...
The comment on the seat stays was misleading……the stays largely handle or resist the twisting induced at the rear hub which forces the stays to be in tension (alternating) has a rider say climbs outta the saddle. Stays themselve do not hold the seat tube up this is the done by the front triangle. Keep in min pd carbon is fairly useless in comparison.
The one thing I don't get is the references to "Western frames". How many western frames are actually made in Europe or the United States? Canyon frames are all made in Taiwan, which I would hardly consider a "western" country. Now, quality of Taiwanese manufacturing is generally better than fly by night Chinese competitors, but most "western" brands use Chinese factories to make their frames.
Western as in the brand
I agree all frames are made in Asia 👍🏼
many Canyon toptues snapping. maybe the lack of compression plus dry carbon = kaboom
Giant bike pls
Perhaps you ought to polish the sections to get a better view under the microscope - you'll see the microvoids much more easily
Fair point, what polish would you use?
@@JourdainColeman start with 200 grit, then 400, 600 and. 800 grit. silicon carbide paper for wet sanding. After that you need a fine abrasive paste - without going over the top the stuff used for cleaning glass cooktops works. Just make sure you you have the sand paper /abrasive on a flat surface and rub the part over it not hold the sandpaper in your hand as you need a flat surface for the microscope.
cutting a carbon frame without respiratory ppe smells like a bad idea, for sure
Seriously, I'm holding my breath from behind the screen.
I can't imagine why anyone would want a plastic frame. I wouldn't own any frame that isn't steel (4130 or better), not even if it were free.
hope you (or the person who was cutting it up) was wearing a mask as carbon is not something you want to be breathing in.
Thanks for the video though! very interesting
Yeah, masks were worn 👍🏽
Edit: It's good to see the high-end frame from Canyon looks well made.
Interestingly, I recently broke my Canyon endurace CF frame (entry level frame). They tried to sell me a new one for €900 and said it was a "special price to help existing customers faced misfortune". Anyway, I felt €900 for a entry-level frame was steep (considering their buying power etc.) It would be interesting to see how a entry-level frame from a big brand compares to the Chinese brands.
In the end, I bought a never used spare pro frame (Eddy Merckx 525) for less than what Canyon tried to get off me, got a nicer bike now than before :)
@@erikvanderveken1408 That is a lot for an entry-level frame. As Rob said, they are light and stiff but that can also lead to issues. I guess there is always a payoff. The Eddi Merckx frame looks nice 👌🏼
The epoxy resin breaks down over the years.
Keep your carbo indoors when not in use at room temperature.
EDIT: spoke to a guy who runs a shop he said don’t worry about it . 👍🏼
When you say dont worry, means don’t have to put it in room , I.e can leave it in garage?
Please tell us you cut up a Giant TCR as the next bike with a long carbon history and rather stable geometry and consequential relative most research and development done to it. Also for some reason you don’t see many replicas or manufacturers copy it.
The price delta of a replica versus a genuine Giant is too small. Hence, most people might just save up just a bit more to get the real deal.
Unlike a Dogma, Colnago V3RS, Bianchi Oltre or a Cipolini, Giant TCR isn’t ludicrously expensive.
@@ariffau Giant is much closer to those luxury brands these days.
@@michaelmechex depends which tier you’re looking at. TCR SLR (alu), Advanced, Advanced Pro or Advanced SL
@@michaelmechex but even then, for the price of an TCR Advanced SL frameset, you can get 2 of them compared to a Dogma and still have change for a decent wheelset.
@@ariffau the cheapest TCR costs 1550 in the uk, that surprised me, because in my country it's 2650 euros, which is significantly more than chinese frames. 1550 is close to the upper range of chinese frames, but I'd rather have a Winspace T1500 for that price, I honestly think it's a better bike.
We need to compare this to an F1 carbon part. Anyone care to donate? 🤣
Hmmm....cutting carbon without a mask?
Test a normal canyon frame versus the trifox, you will discover a lot of voids and worse quality than Chinese frames.
Of course canyon is going to make sure their top model frame, which costs more than 10 times as the trifox, is perfect.
A fair comparison for example would be a winspace SLC versus the canyon cf slx.
There is so many mistakes here spoken with such confidence, the guy is clearly trying to sell his carbon repair business but not actually familiar with the composites
Carbon frames just doesnt feel safe to me. Period
Seat stays and posts on busted carbon of canyons are failing alot just now
so I ride a carbon frame Enduro bike for 4-5 years and then what? Who is going to buy it? xD No one. Bike goes to the bin?
The second hand market is booming here in the UK. As long as it's a known brand then resale shouldn't be an issue.
if its canyon its engineered , if trifox its trash.
The trifox is engineered its just old school tech. Good luck designing a mold and layup without a level of study in chemistry and engineering
The high end brand might start looking at your channel for what u do to their bikes 🤣🤣🤣 ... it would be a slap in their face if their bikes which are 3-5 times more expensive than the chinese brand have the same build/issue as the chinese brand.
👀
Generally they're made in China or Taiwan from Japanese carbon.
Can you stop telling Jee, jee, jee.
Shouldn’t this guy cutting carbon fibre be wearing a filter mask?
Was he wearing a mask when cutting the carbon?
Full extractor bench at CBR, I use full mask with filters when cutting 👍🏽
@@JourdainColeman Good to hear. Take care mate! Keep publishing these kind of videos!
trifox use 4x more of carbon but cost 4x less nice real scam about carbon prices
They used a cheaper carbon so they could be very generous
Wait, the Germans are west now?
These cut up bike threads have become pointlessly self indulgent. I started off (different vid from you) interested, but have increasingly realised that there is no useful point to what you are doing apart from criticising materials that are not intended to be indestructible. They are a compromise of weight, compliance, strength, aesthetics, price etc and you decide what is important to you and pay accordingly. The absence of clear conclusions devalues your content and so I have unsubscribed.