Tri-ang 'Neo' Magnets: Do They Work & Are They Worth It?
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- čas přidán 10. 01. 2015
- Recently, new neodymium magnets have become available as direct replacements for the old magets used in the tri-ang X04 motors. At £10 a peice, they are visibly much more powerful magnets than the ones they replace. In theory, they make the motors more powerful, efficient and effective at low speeds and mathematically, they should cause significant improvements.
In this video, I carry out a few experiments to see if these magnets really are an improvement on their predecessors - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Very useful and also to read John's comments. I haven't seen John on a broadcast for a while. The other option is the Magnetiser from Ronald Dodd. I thought about using a large neo magnet to try and remagnetise but I think this would only partially improve the hornby magnet. Having discussed it with Richard from Spider magnets.
I can see what you mean Sam, but I suspect the only reason why most people would fit a neo magnet would be to replace a tired original Triang one. Useful for someone like me who can’t justify the cost of one of Ronald Dodd’s wonderful remagnétiser . I could fit neo magnets to 18 old locos before I could consider it advantageous to buy a remag unit. What I’m really looking for is a circuit diagram and specs for a remag machine so I could build my own.
Hi Sam, talking of magnets is the re magnetizer set up you have an early Hornby Dublo one please, seems to work very well giving old magnets a new lease of life.
No comments for a while I see. Only just found this video, interesting. watching.
A few points ...some of the older locos had magnehesion which on the old steel track improved pulling power. Those who still have the old steel track might notice even more pulling power.
You can get quite small neo magnets which can be put on the outside (paying strict attention to polarity) to improve motor performance without affecting the bearings so much. I have improved old tired Ringfield motors this way (was not brave enough to try CD motor modifications).
The bigger Neos also had issues with lifting steel coupler hooks in locos where the motor was close to the back wall.
Thanks for the comment Malcolm - yes you're absolutely right about the magnahesion - and it was a godsend for locos such as the single wheelers. That's a good idea regarding the booster magnets - but now that I have the remagnetiser device, I find that does the job perfectly. Sounds like a wonderful fix for the ringfields though!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I recon you have summed them up well, they are available if required. Reports appear in the HRCA journal, where Hornby Dublo locos can be rejuvenated, but a recent discovery is increased wear in the motor bearings, so there may be a price to pay in the longer term.
Yours, Clifford.
Thanks! And thats a good point, I can beleive that to be true. I must admit, I've fitted three of these new magnets now and I was expecting more of a difference (I still might try one in that trans-con though) :)
Cheers,
Sam
Sam'sTrains In the same journals, I've read there is a trend to have the original magnets remagnetised. At some area meetings, someone fetches the electric device for that job.
I'm not sure if the TCA does this for Tri-ang motors though.
Yours, Cliff.
Its possible - I've heard you need some serious current do it it though :(
Thanks,
Sam
Sam'sTrains
I also run Hornby Dublo, in the past I have fitted Neos but having damaged one loco`s top bearing I have invested in a re-magnetizer. Best investment ever, locos run as sweet as anything.
I have recently remaged 11 triang locos with XO3/4 motors for a friend and it is amazing how well Triang respond to the re-mag, they now also run very sweetly.
Thanks for the info - what does the re-magnetizer involve? :)
Hi Sam....I just stumbled across this interesting video of yours. I have used a few of the neo magnets & although I haven't done any experiments as detailed as yours, I have found in a nutshell that they run better at a slow speed, the loco isn't any faster but you can pull much larger loads with little or no effort! So that's pretty much what you have concluded with your in-depth experiments. When I take a magnet out for whatever reason, I always mark it with a black pen on the side & also on the plate for correct direction on re-fitting. I also use a compass....this is very reliable in correct placement of direction. Anyway Sam....enjoyed & liked the vid. Don't know if you've ever seen my channel? Kind regards, John.
chambs123 Thanks very much for the comment - I found what you said to be true with regards to the slow speed/power. For the most part, I've been quite lucky with magnets and have only had to replace a handful. Yes, I've enjoyed your channel since you started it a few years back; its one of the reasons I thought I'd try making a few videos myself.Thanks for the info,
Sam
Sam'sTrains Thanks for the reply Sam & great if it was my channel that gave you the inspiration! I bought 30 of the neo magnets for the XO4....80 quid the lot! I've used maybe 10 tops. I also bought some for the bogie motor that's fitted to the class 31, 37, EM2 etc. They don't work too well. As you wind the speed up they are ok at first but when you get to top speed the motors suddenly break into a 'growl' & run slower, with occaisions of bursting back into full speed & the cycle begins again! The reasons for this is that the magnetic field is too strong & forces the armature to 'fight back' on itself! You can reduce some of the magnetism by heating the neo with a small blow torch but monitoring the temperture as you do. When the temperture gets to just under 80c stop. When it's cooled down the magnet will be a little weaker! All the best, John.
@@chambs123 That's great information John. Haven't seen you for a year or so.
Neodymium magnets aren't supposed to make the motor faster, they generally do the opposite: slow the motor down and make the it more stable at low speed, as your side-by-side comparison showed. The hallmark of a weak magnet is high RPM and low torque, so your test was a success. I'm a little confused as to what you're trying to achieve here... these are model trains, not slot cars.
I've done this to numerous old open frame motors, and the difference is remarkable.
Thanks for the info, duly noted! This isn't quite true though, with a stronger magnetic field, the turning force will be increased, this is a basic principle of an electric motor. In my experience, when a magnet is failing, the motor runs much more slowly and with much less torque - torque and speed are closely related. I don't use NEO magnets anyway - they're far too strong, and they wear motor bearings out unnecessarily, I prefer to remagnetise the original magnets these days!
Sorry if this has confused you!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
No, I'm not confused. I've been repowering motors for over a decade. The symptoms of a weak magnet in old alnico magnet motors is high speed, low torque, and overheating. Under load, of course, a weak motor will bog down. In the case of you tests, your original motor wasn't weak per se and probably running as designed, just not as powerful as the motor with the neodymium substitute., which showed its superior low speed control.
I'm surprised to hear about the bearing wear. That's something I've never encountered. The forces on the armature should mostly cancel out given that the poles are 180 degrees opposed, The greatest source of bearing wear is a worm mounted on the motor shaft, which creates a great deal of upward side force on the forward bearing.
That is a huge block magnet, though, as big as the original. It may be overkill for an upgrade, in fact it probably has much more flux than the field pieces can transfer to the armature. I generally use stacks of smaller magnets to try and find the sweet spot field strength-wise, and maybe that would be a better way to go.
I know one type of 3 pole motor that doesn't respond well to a replacement magnets; they have wide armature gaps and cog horribly, and their original block magnet is large enough to do their job handily.
Anyway, enjoyed the chat. 👍
@@SamsTrains Just seen you reply. How do you remagnetise old magnets. I have an old Triang dock shunter and a steam Princess. The magnets on them are so weak nothing will stick to them. I read somewhere that if you get a Neo magnet and touch the old magnet north on south or visa versa it will rejuvenate the old one.
Think the benefit of these is for locos with poor magnets when you don't have a remagnetiser as a way of replacing with a good magnet and restoring good running at a reasonable cost
Thanks Sam for your message ,There will be big shocks to come re the home made manufacture of these magnetiser items .
No problem - I do believe that you just had a bad experience though - I know many others who own these devices who are very happy. As you know though, being home- made, there won't be much in the way of official quality control or testing as there would be in genuine manufacturing.
Thanks for watching,
Sam :)
Good review i was needed to buy one because my magnet is dead and spend 200 for machine what can get it back to life is too expensive
I have an early princess that had a very tired magnet and no amount of servicing procedures would make it run faster like the rest of my locos can, I used chambs x04 servicing procedure and cleaned the wheels and pickps and lubed. So I suspected the windings were bad or the magnet was tired. I fitted a neo and it improved slightly from how it was so I suspect the armature needs rewinding.
actually 2 days after fitting the neo its running slightly better again maybe its just because it had more run time
X04 service needs to include checking the back plate and bearing, sometimes they were all steel which does not help the magnets work, look out for nice brass back plates, make sure the back plate is secure and can not vibrate. Clean between the commutator plates and polish commutator using cotton bud and IPA cleaner. Consider changing the insulating sleeve as these can become impregnated with oil and conductive. Brush alignment would be next on my list. Good luck.
Good video. I think those magnets are probably just made to be replacement parts rather than purely a performance enhancer, but then, I don't have any triang stuff myself (my oldest model train is a HORNBY-Dublo) so how am I supposed to know.
Possibly, although they are advertised to boost performance!
Cheers,
Sam
You can buy these magnets for Hornby Dublo, both two and three rail versions.
Well this is quite an interesting subject. The controller you are using is of course a feedback type, so, it will be trying to compensate, the neo magnet will provide much more feedback to the controller under low power, so possibly it will be regulating more. Anyway that aside. I changed out a lot of my X03/4 magnets and Wrenn some years back. The things I noticed were greatly reduced current consumption, making the motors more suitable for modern controllers with limited output, less heating of course. Much better slow speed control. The concerns I have are: bearing strain with Neo magnets, due to the huge power of these magnets, possible motor frame distortion. Overall positive! But I think if I had the choice I'd like a magnet that was about half the power of the Neos but with no demagnetisation issues. Would you be able to re test using a normal DC source, maybe a 7808 chip Thoughts?
Oh one other observation. I found neo fitted motors ran worse under feedback than under normal DC! too much back EMF?
Thanks for the thoughts - It is indeed a complex subject! I might hook her up to a PC power supply and put a steady 12v through, I guess we'll see if there's any change.
Cheers,
Sam
Hi Sam, is there anyway you can find a 8vdc source? this is supposed to be the optimum voltage.
Thanks for the tip - I'll have a dig and see if I can find one :)
Cheers,
Sam
Though, the PC supply does have a 5v rail
How accurate and repeatable are your timings? That could potentially explain some of the subtle differences when running loco only
What would be interesting is keeping the originals but putting them through a remagnetiser rather than swapping for neo magnets,
Hi, thanks a lot for commenting! I've only ever done testing on this engine... But I never did notice a benefit of the neo magnets in any of the locos I upgraded! I can highly reccomend demagnetisers though - I use one, and have removed all of my neo magnets. Again though, if there's nothing wrong with the magnet to begin with, you won't see a benefit. However, if the magnet has weakened over time, the benefits are visible and dramatically so!
I much prefer using original magnets, since the neo ones put the motor under massive strain, which ruins the bearings, and ultimately damages the coils!
All the best,
Sam :)
Sorry - I meant remagnetisers!
Yes Chambs123 swears by re-magnetising original magnets from what I gather
That was cool and interesting..
Thank you! :D
Hi, here is obvious point in this your application of neodymium magnet to be considered. In order you want to really exploit power of this your neo magnet, you need to provide him enough iron core cross section (your stator iron core where you placed neo magnet, all to the stator iron core over rotor), in order his complete magnetic flux will be brought over to the rotor iron core. It is because for the original ferrite magnet there was enough iron core cross section space, but for your neodymium one is not. In magnetic construction, relation between iron core cross section and ferrite magnet pole space, should be about 1 : 4 (or rather 1 : 8, sorry I forgot), but for neo magnet this relation is about 1 : 1. You already got some improvement, but do this I explained (I am not sure how new thick stator iron core will fit in your locomotive model), then repeat your test again ... also care about the shape of new stator iron core, and you can consult me something about that.
(Edit) ... Oh, sorry, I did not noticed much about kind of your old magnet you replaced with neo. You just said old "normal" magnet, but when I noticed him after, it not looked to me like ferrite one at all. Because of his shine silver color and sharp edges, I would say rather it is Alnico one, or maybe Samarium Cobalt, but I doubt it is. In case it is Alnico, the point I explained above is practically the same ... good luck!
Hi mate, thanks very much for the info on that - I will consider that!
Another development occurred since I made this though - and that was the fact that the more powerful NEO magnets were causing excessive wear on the armature and bearings - meaning that the motors running life was significantly reduced!
These days - I have a re-magnetising device which restores the old magnets to their original condition, which doesn't put so much strain on the motors!
Thanks again for the comment,
Sam :)
Hi Sam, you are welcome! If you make a improvement, that can require another ones, in your case improvement of the all bearings and strength of complete construction. You can check it. But - that means improvements, and in other hand, anything in this world do not last forever. I read also comments here something, and I think you could check if there exist wear of motor commutator and brushes. But, this could be problem only if there is visible deeper trace of brushes on the commutator, or brushes wear is near to the end.
If you do re-magnetizing your old magnet, it is the best you do that with already assembled magnetic construction, I mean - magnet is not magnetized out of the stator iron core assembly magnetic construction, then placed in. Even it would be good if that include also assembled rotor, but i am not sure it would damage rotor windings, disregarding motor is disconnected from the controller, or even if brushes are removed. But re'-magnetizing practically any kind of magnet it is really hard to be needed, because in normal conditions all of them can lose their properties very, very slightly, even maybe over 100 years or more ... Magnets can lose their strength in excessive heat conditions, or if applied heavy mechanical stress - impact. Neo magnet is most sensitive on heat, mostly even from 80C, then Ferrite from 250, then Alnico and Samarium Cobalt ones are most heat resistive. Some magnets also can lose their strength in some noticeable extent if are placed out of the magnetic construction assembly, especially Alnico, then Ferrite slightly, and about others I am not sure, but probably, and practically almost nothing. If your old magnet is Alnico (probably it is), because I saw you are pulled him out of the motor, it is the best that you magnetize him again as I explained above, but in most of other cases it is hard to be needed. It seems that people which sell those expensive magnetizers, and Neo magnets also, just want to pull out money from yours pockets ;-). Regards
Hi Sam, just re visiting this video with an update after our discussions last time. I have now nearly removed all my Neo magnets in favour of the originals but recharged (video on my channel shows how) While the neos brought interesting results they were very hard on the motor bearings. I now have loads of them and wondering what to do with them all lol
+MikesMovies I did very much the same over the summer, having decided the re-magnetiser was a better option than neos! I've since sold the neo magnets on eBay!
Cheers,
Sam
+Sam'sTrains That's an idea, what did you ask for them?
+MikesMovies I think I charged around £6-£7 for them!
MikesMovies.
What about reenergized original magnets comparison?
Yeah this is an old video now, and recharging old magnets is my preferred method now - better for the motors too!
Some of my locos have these
Ahh nice - generally they're good and reliable! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Has your tests show not much in gain neo magnets are two exspensive they should be more like 4 to 5 pounds thats just my opinion grate video sam
Hi Mark, that's true - I actually highly advise against using them too - they put massive strain on the bearings! The best option is to get a re-magnetisers, and recondition the original magnets!
Thanks for watching,
Sam :)
Brilliant vid. Very good empirical science that you can test and repeat. I.E real science, not the modern fake theoretical shite.
Very well made and thorough.
I do think the last test needs repeating though with the same loco both magnets on 1 track. Last test is my only gripe as it wasn't as fair.
Thanks mate - yes I tried to be relatively scientific with this!
Yes that'd be a good idea to try - but I've since learned that the neo magnets are bad for the motors, causing excessive wear, so I no longer use them - I now use a remagnetiser to restore the original ones!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Sam'sTrains - I watched your remagnetizer video too. Seems a good bit of kit. I have no use for it yet though as I only have a few X03/X04 engines.
I am terrified they will burn out my x04 motors, as there getting harder to come by, maybe iam just being paranoid
Yeah, I wouldn't really recommend them these days - they are known for stressing motor bearings out... try a remagnetiser, that's a better option!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
You can also just add a magnet to the preexisting motor magnet and get the same results.
czcams.com/video/fyJ21PycCcU/video.html
Yes you can! Though I don't recommend that either now - I just use a remagnetiser these days! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I would sooner replace that ancient motor design with a modern, skew wound, five pole, flywheel-equipped job that has the magnets right next to the armature where they belong than worry about trying to replace the magnet in the old motor.
Yeah - that is perfectly logical! But to most, these motors are extremely nostalgic - and in many cases they last much longer than the modern ones will! I've got tri-ang motors that are 65 years old, and still run perfectly - all because they can be easily stripped down and serviced properly!
But yes - if you wanted, you could try to find a modern motor to put in there - but if you did that, you'd be better to just buy a modern loco, which has all the modern details too!
Thanks for watching,
Sam :)
Interesting, but not as interesting as seeing a running session in my opinion.
Sorry to hear that Kelly - plenty more running sessions out there!! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Sams Trains , I have not as yet of todays date 3/2/2018 received a full refund ,I did not let it rest ,someone that manufactures these magnetiser units have to comply with the law and certify it to use ,this is a serious legal requirement , The problem I have reported to various authorities for a complete investigation I can't say who ,but there will be serious implications .I can't say how many units he has made but I think it is enough to be a manufacturer ,If you send me your email address I can say more .
It is in the long run better to buy new magnets , replacement magnets do not loose their magnetism.
In my View anyone that buys one of these could have problems .
None compliant / tested Electric devices can cause fire ,fire kills thats a fact.
Well I'm very sorry to hear that you've had those problems - and if what you say is true, then you at least deserve a refund.
I am very happy with the unit I bought though, and it's saved me a lot of money.
I can highly recommend avoiding new neo magnets. While they work well, they're far too powerful, and cause excessive wear and damage to the armature over a relatively short time - I have a lot of evidence for this!
Thanks for watching,
Sam :)
Sam! Could you stop giving this guy houseroom on your posts.....
.......there are hundreds of folk out there with Ronald Dodds very well manufactured remagnetisers and they work really well......
........he seems to have got a mis informed bee in his bonnet about something and wants to show the world his ignorance for some reason.....
.......a bit like these on-line influencers and viral pop stars......just stop giving them publicity and they disappear......
His writings seem to suggest he's got hold of sone "buzz words" (possibly ftom the bee in his bonnet) and is just determined to blunder uncontrollably about spouting them wether he understands context and relevance or not.....