Why is Man City’s FFP case taking so long to solve?
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- čas přidán 16. 05. 2024
- Ayo Akinwolere is joined by The Athletic's David Ornstein, Adam Crafton & Matt Slater to discuss the recent action that the Premier League has taken against both Everton and Nottingham Forest. The Toffees were dealt a vicious 10 point deduction earlier this season and fears of a repeat are now beginning to linger at Goodison.
Nottingham Forest have also been charged after their enormous transfer overhaul in recent seasons. Manager Nuno Espírito Santo only came into the club only a month ago, so keeping them in the Premier League would undoubtedly be the toughest challenge of his career should Forest receive a large points deduction.
The four also talk about Manchester City’s FFP allegations and the probable implications of the whole debacle.
Everton and the Profitability and Sustainability rules 00:00 - 03:52
Notts Forest and the Profitability and Sustainability rules 03:52 - 08:48
Everton and Forest’s lack of strategy 08:48 - 13:12
Everton’s frustrations 13:12 - 17:12
Man City comparison 17:12 - 24:42
FFP house keeping points 24:42 - 27:20
Rest of the Premier League 27:20 - 29:03
Chelsea’s spending 29:03 - 33:03
What is FFP for? 33:03 - 38:36
Club owners 38:36 - 40:16
Final Comments 40:16 - 42:11
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#everton #mancity #premierleague - Sport
If I've learnt anything from my 40 years as a Brit, if you are very rich you are above the law. Corruption is everywhere in top ranks and Man city are rich enough to be above the law.
Prove it
That’s an international thing
OK just recently: Bankers' bonuses, PPE debacle, Post Office scandal, Money for Questions, Political Party donor influences (from home and overseas), Non-Dom tax exceptions,.....tell me when you want me to stop.
@@tsdvaks OK just recently: Bankers' bonuses, PPE debacle, Post Office scandal, Money for Questions, Political Party donor influences (from home and overseas), Non-Dom tax exceptions,.....tell me when you want me to stop.
Oh bro, you need to travel more
The Athletic is such a breath of fresh air in the realm of football journalism. The standards before the Athletic were dangerously low.
Adam crafton is full of crap. He reckons Everton should have predicted (somehow) three things: 1) The war in Ukraine AND 2) that financial sanctions would have occured against Russia AND 3) those sanctions would affect football? ridiculous lol
@@silentwitness536 Not exactly what he said, is it? He said that you are always at risk when you are banking on future revenue. The war was bubbling for a while before it happened. So it's not that they should have had the foresight to say it would happen for certain, but that they should have never taken that risk on revenue they were yet to see.They did some creative accounting and it's backfired. We've seen it happen before with Leeds.
@@silentwitness536 premier league clubs are massive organisations who spend millions of pounds hiring corporate people to run their business, it's only natural to expect them to manage risks and try to anticipate events that might impact the club and of course to employ experts who are capable of doing so. the thing about everton is that they're poorly run and have a terrible strategy... but i guess it's much easier to blame premier league rules and show no accountability whatsoever. as crafton himself said, everton are even in a position to try and change these rules with the support of other clubs. people have to understand football is serious business now and stop making excuses for incompetent directors who milk money out of the clubs while they rotten it up
@@young_raymond47 Arsenal were funded by Usmanov for a long period, Chelsea by Abramovich, City by UAE and Newcastle by the Saudi's, none of these are any better, none were illegal at the time though
David Ornstein's analysis is much fairer and more balanced imo
BBC Football is essentially a Man United fanzine with that clown Simon Stone just wanking off the ego of that toxic swamp of a club.
Great discussion. Seems the main takeaway is that FFP is more designed to prevent clubs from going bankrupt than prevent fudging the numbers to get ahead and cheat. Its greatest flaw seems to be that clubs that are more open and participate are punished while clubs that deny, lie and hide behind litigation get off without punishment.
What PL clubs have gone bankrupt? It was never about that. It's about solidifying Utd, lfc, and arsenal at the top and making it impossible to compete financially. If it was about bankruptcy debt woukd be part of it.
Sure, until you realise that Everton is no where near bankruptcy
Scouser talking about others lying. How is that Stanley Park development Liverpool announced, with £50m in sponsorship so they could meet FFP, coming along?
Chelsea got away with Abramovich. Everton were too late for Usmanov. Meanwhile Arabs are still not affected yet so Man City can deny all their breaches and carry on, whereas Everton admitted to their rule breaking, and with PSR/FFP rules pulling the ladder up behind Newcastle, the “richest club in the world” are conducting a fire sale to subvent reinforcements in January at bargain prices. What happened to “you’re going to sign Zidane as manager, Mbappe up front?” Bollocks!
@@russellward4624 compete with what? Those clubs compete with their own money especially united!
The fact that many clubs are getting close to the FFP limit does suggest that the PL's fit and proper owner test isn't particularly fit for purpose.
Potentially seeing it again with the 777 Partners attempted takeover of Everton
or maybe ffp isn't fit and proper.
How? Any business will always try to get away with as much as possible. Taxes, laws, whatever. It's not just the PL clubs. Barca have took loans out on future revenue to spend on transfers. They're 2b in debt. It doesn't matter what a rule is, someone will always go to the line and try to push past it without getting caught. Weather it's lfc speaking to a player under contract with another club, illegally hacking another club, breaking rules for signing youth players. Or Chelsea, barca, Real, atletti paying youth players not under contract. Etc...
According to Price of footy pod, 777 borrowed at a 52,5% yearly interest rate. No such owner will be accepted.
Newcastle have literal murderers as their owners. The fit for purpose thing is nonsense...
@russellward4624 just look at the things juventus got done for recently. Not the first time that they have been in serious trouble either. Part of what they got done for this time involved Barcelona and City and swap deals between them and juventus. They initially got away with it until the league were made aware of evidence collected by the police, including wire taps.
What we don't know is if there are police investigations ongoing with City and Barcelona. just because we don't know about it doesn't mean that one is not underway, though probably unlikely as it'd have leaked probably.
Thank you for shedding light on the differences that exist in these cases. The PL/UEFA/FIFA are beyond corrupt.
Nothing more corrupt than an oil state buying illegitimate trophies for a club by cheating every other club in the league. And doing it many many times over.
more chance me becoming the Pope than Man City getting a decent punishment
Funny how you seemingly know a lot more about the case than all of us (seen as you already know the outcome), I wonder why you aren’t working on the case and instead chatting shit on CZcams?
@@rikupv lmfao okay calm down 😂
@@becca125 inflating sponsorship deals and not declaring , doing backhanders etc these are serious cases
@@ravd8082 Not just FFP, but possible TAX FRAUD & MONEY LAUNDERING!
They'll get the book thrown at them or English football will become a laughing stock around the world. No way in a million yrs can a small club with barely any fans outside of Manchester have a turnover higher than RMadrid unless they've been massively cooking their books for years i.e. committing major fraud.
How can promoted teams compete if they can only spend what they earned? Revenues in the championship is nothing compared to PL earnings
They are not supposed to, thats the whole idea.
they are paid more to get relegated
Its up to the fans witch club is big and witch are not. City knew this and cut corners to get on top.
This was so well discussed and explained. Thank you guys so much. I subbed and cant wait to listen to more content like this.
I don't understand why the Premier league won't just focus on, say 5 charges, get them done and if city are innocent move onto the other 110. But if they're guilty, charge them now, in this season. We keep hearing they're different charges, so let's get some of the lesser ones out of the way, just like Everton and Forest
Really good point.
I guess part of that would be because whilst city deserve to be punished, they also deserve to know what their situation will be before transfer windows. The punishment might be cumulative as well. They have the ability to relegate clubs. If city are found guilty on enough, they might receive multiple relegations. You can't enforce that mid season.
Pick your best charges. Prosecutors do it all the time. In fairness to PL, City seem to be delaying - despite claiming they are innocent and desperate for their day in court.
A lot of people now that city have broken the rules so they should get done like Everton and put city in league two
😂😂😂😂 you do realise most of the charges are duplicated? The first charge falls it's a dominoe effect 😅
I can understand the frustration of journalists having to address the Man City situation repeatedly, but in defense of us fans, there are several key questions that seemingly haven't been addressed. For starters:
1. Why is the Manchester City case being treated confidentially whilst others have not been?
2. Why do all of the charges have to be dealt with simultaneously?
3. If the Premier League is confident in its case, why is there such a delay? If the reason for that is so that Manchester City can gather its own evidence, why has no deadline been set?
I'm sure there are other similar questions. I'd love for someone to address these, and if the answer truly is that we don't know, or haven't been told, then please report on that. It's a story in and of itself.
The answer to your question is in there, the fa have no evidence
1) The other cases have all been treated the same when they were at the same stage as City's is now
2) the 115 relates to 5 things - all of which are connected. Case would fall apart if treated separately.
3) witness statements were being collected as of early December. Both defense and prosecution are preparing
1. Because its such a massive case they don't want to overstep in public and risk City's great lawyers throwing it out on a technicality
2. Outcomes of the early decisions could prejudice latter ones. Plus it's all interrelated. They are accused of breaching *&* lying. Plus giving put multiple smaller separate punishments would benefit City
3. City have the right to ha e time to form a defence. Likely they submit info right on the deadline of every request. Plus City have been arguing against even having the charges so that needs sorting out first
1. There’s far more hot air around this one, imagine if they released when and where it was taking place, you’d have 10,000 Liverpool and United fans turning up because they’re so bitter. City’s lawyers are already going to use the media smears, and chat around the case as a defence, quite rightly, but they may yet announce it.
2. City are accused of a handful of things, only 1 is severe, they’ve triggered 115 duplications in the rulebook, it’s not 115 different wrong doings. You could do the 2/3 minor accusations first but it doesn’t make sense to bring the panel back multiple times.
3. The delay has been agreed by both sides, it’s a case involving millions of documents, over a decade. The premier league aren’t ready to give their evidence and City aren’t ready to defend it. All parties have agreed autumn 2024 so they’re all prepared.
I’m just happy that an insider to Man City released emails, which was the catalyst to the downfall and expulsion of Manchester City from the English Premier League.
Because they are working out the total amount to buy themselves out of all 115 charges.
As a Forest fan, I feel like we are being punished for us having a year in the championship going into this 3 year of accounts. We are now being punished for actually coming up and having a go, rather than coming up and struggling and going back down again. Feels like teams coming up don’t really stand a chance, as being shown this year.
2 years in Championship.
Thue rules are total garbage for any team other than the big boys, It closes the circle for those teams and ensures no one else can compete with them. Forest are getting shafted, as are Everton.
The rules are deeply flawed
Maybe, but 41 signings was nuts. And some of them were shocking and were completely lacking in nouse - Lingard being probably the worst example
@@Ricky_Baldy agreed, however I can see why they did it, similar to what the Saudi league are trying to do. If you get enough big names in, others will follow. Which for the most part it worked. Like Lingard or not, he’s a big personality and he gets people talking.
City AND the Premier League should be scorched by this. The Premier League, in the teeth of opposition from most clubs, decided that a sovereign wealth fund was an appropriate owner. That's the root of the problem.
It can't be discussed in public without the words "fraud" and "corruption" being used. It's not in the EPL's interest to allow that discussion because, as Adam points out, everything reflects back on the teams. Liverpool can't insist on retrospective deductions of points without explaining why they sat back and allowed City to get away with so much in the first place.
@ethelburga
A lot of truth in this - we’re watching a Farcical Situation and the PL, just like PGMOL and the way they are perceived, are handling this Very Badly !!
The PL has to act because of the emails
Smashing stuff lads! As a future auditor, expecting an increased demand for external auditors of Prem Football clubs and increased importance on the opinion expressed by auditors 👏
These are the podcast everyone should be watching, not the YT content creators who are aggravators and nothing else. we all know who they are. These are educated and respected journalist who all know the game and the ins and out's. YT content creators who are just aggravators are the ones everyone should be avoiding as they either spout lie's or they spout incorrect information.
nah aggravators is right, because that is what they are as the op states clearly @@T.E.S.S.
Let. People. Breathe.
Everyone don't have to like what you like or do what you do and that's okay.
People can have variance to their taste in media consumption and that's okay.
And it's okay to have this and have the others!
If you have the choice for a variety of food kindly allow others the same variety of media without trying to SUBTLY shame them.
It's okay to be different mate.
Yes agree 100% sadly.
Respected journalists ??? Bit of an odd comment in my world
@@DarkshadeMusic Totally disagree with your comment.
Football misinformation, exaggeration and speculation is harmless in a sense, but on a wider scale it isn't. The popular social media creators are making the environment around the game toxic.
Lots of kids watch CZcams way more than anything else, and therefore their media consumption WILL impact their perspective on various topics. Big creators can actually make an impact on people's opinion and on the world, and many influencers should be more aware of that.
Back in the day, you wouldn't have thousands listening to some random guy's football opinions, all just because he is funny (take as an example most big UK youtubers with a podcast).
On a wider scale, media consumption is seen to be damaging to entire countries. Just look at America. The right-leaning media in the US will simply bring much more news that are Trump-positive and Biden-negative for example, and the same can be said about the left-leaning media (but with a bias towards the Democratic Party). This has contributed to a largely divided USA that feels dystopian at times, as seen on 6th of January 2021. This impact of the media is not just on politics. It can be seen everywhere and in football too.
This was superb, the kind of thing that makes me think about subscribing again. Knowledgeable and even handed, really appreciated.
It took the premier league 4 years to look into man city
Just concentrate on the oldest infringements first in chronological order, use the PL resources on the City case only, get it sorted before next season. Then focus on the Everton, Forest or whoever. Ridiculous punishing teams while City’s 115 charges hang over us all. They can wait, sort out City first, even if it is a few charges at a time. The punishment needs to be severe as well as a deterrent.
Everton and Forest didn't deny their wrong doing so it was an open and shut case.
A lot of inward projections here. I hope you're not disappointed when it doesn't go the way you hope. Also how exactly does this "hang over us all"? You're not even a City fan. Spend less time worrying about City and focus on your club.
I definitely didn't have a good understanding until I watched, thank you!
Take the matter out of the hands of the lawyers. Just let the other 19 PL clubs have a vote to have MC expelled from the PL. Simple!
So if a neighbour sad to the local police you have drugs in the house,you would be glad that your neighbour should decide for how long you go to jail...you are ignorent as it gets.
@@adergas1 The worse analogy I've ever seen.😂 I hope other clubs sue MC for billions once they're found guilty.
Also it’s rubbish that the Man City or Chelsea issue is complicated, both clubs have been charged several times by UEFA for breaching FFP but the premier league has done nothing! Chelsea have even admitted that they have fraudulently made payments off the books, but again the Premier League does nothing. Everton have worked with the premier league and now they are trying to prove how tough they are by trying to bankrupt Everton by hitting them twice for the same overspend, a club that has never broken the rules before, whilst allowing repeat and admitted offenders a free licence to continue yet again. That is why fans are pissed off with the premier league going after the soft targets and ignoring the repeat offenders
The PL would have happily let MC & CFC continue getting away with it. It's only bcz the Independant Football Regulator has come in & put a rocket up the PL's backside that they're charging clubs left, right & center. Otherwise MC, CFC & NU would be allowed continue doping their clubs for years.
Question: what happens if the other 19 Premier League clubs simply refuse to fulfill their fixtures against Manchester City? Can't really force their collective hand or throw them all out can you?
Matt Slater's point regarding FFP not stopping Man City and Chelsea is as ignorant as it is painfully stupid. Chelsea were taken over in 2003 long before any FFP regulations. Man City in 2008 and FFP regulations didn't come in until 2011/2012 for UEFA competitions and later for Premier League. They built their revenues and squads up before FFP took any effect which effectively consolidated their power so that when FFP came in (115 charges aside) they were already set to take over. Newcastle were bought in the relegation zone, with commercial revenues and the infrastructure on its knees with a playing squad with very few sellable assets to sell and reinvest due to Mike Ashley neglecting the club. It is not anywhere near the same and saying despite FFP Chelsea and City got there anyways is unbelievably naïve. Not to mention the other 'big six' built up their revenues years ago long before FFP too. Ornstein is far more reasonable especially making the point with regards to the farce of now being incentivised to sell home grown players.
Great job. Refreshing to hear such insightful and informative comment
Big Up to all the 3 Gentlemen for explaining this complex topic in an easy & detailed way, looking forward to more such discussions...
I would like to know why the Minister of Sport recently met with officials from Manchester City at the club's request. A FOI request for minutes of that meeting was denied as it 'wouldn't be in the public's interest'. Was this the club's owners relaying how Abu Dhabi would respond against the UK if heavy sanctions were made against the club.
I can certainly appreciate what these writers are trying to say that City's case(s) are different. The big big problem is the lack of communication in terms of updates or FYI's or anything to let the public know - supporters and neutrals alike - that the case is still ongoing, that both sides are preparing information/arguments, that there's a deadline of _________ day to answer them or some sort of sign of progress. Lack of information is easily perceived as malintent or incompetency or possible corruption. Right as City are winning a historic Treble, their own league drops this atom bomb of charges and then goes dark about it. That's probably the biggest mistake in this - lack of updates/information. And sure, maybe you can only say so much to protect a legal strategy or to avoid concededing ground to your legal opposition or even to obey a legal procedure....but say *something*.
Adam contradicts himself saying we all thought abramovich would be around forever, yet earlier said Everton should have expected major war with Russia and Ukraine!. Ridiculous
Could it be City’s “FFP charges” aren’t “FFP charges “. People are so thick. The City issue is not the same thing, is far more complicated, will be virtually impossible for the “ independent “ panel to prove and was instigated in a panic by the Premier League as an attempt to put off the government considering taking the governance of the league to a truly independent body instead of the cartel it currently is.
It is Man City that is a true example of a cartel.
It's not hard to understand it's a much more complex case the City one and there is no way they will co-operate with it, as they never have done. But they do need to be more transparent about where they are with the process. The moment he said he won't name the date straight away gives the cynics out there a chance to say "I told you so."
They will move the goalposts when the PL fails to prove its case because it's rooted in self interest and not fact
If there are indeed 115 counts. It's very hard to see how even one could not be dealt with while others continue in the background.
I doubt there will be an overall punishment like title stripping and if so, then address each bit by bit
@@Beyond_Belief534 If the PL fails to prove a single charge then it demonstrates unbelievable incompetence while proving to many that all the PL wanted to do was 'pretend' they were going to hold clubs responsible while not actually wanting to punish anyone except Everton.
@@josephkerrigan733 Hold responsibility for what?
Prove it first
@@Beyond_Belief534 Do you genuinely think that there's nothing suspicious about a club that was irrevelant and relegation fodder 20 years ago suddenly being able to bag more lucrative sponsorship deals than huge branding clubs like Real Madrid, Bayern, Man United or Barcelona? Especially when they use the owners' other companies to sponsor City, like the Emirates Place Hotel, which is owned by Abu Dhabi. And they have been busted before for being sponsored by ghost companies with no employees or products. Don't be daft.
Great talk - keep it up!
the problem with assigning specific punishments to a violation is that clubs can then look at it and say well, we will gladly overspend and take a 10 point deduction because we're confident we'll get 60 points.
Guys you need to start using time stamps….
I'm sorry but please don't dismiss the money that City are throwing behind their defence by saying that the Premier League and other clubs are also spending money on lawyers. That is so naive. City have orders of magnitude more money than Forest, Everton and the Premier League, which buys you the best in the business. When you have a case that involves potentially millions of documents, City also have an advantage in being able to recruit a larger legal team than the Premier League which can sort through those documents much faster. Of course the Premier League will have some great lawyers but anyone who works in law can tell you City will have a big advantage.
Great insight boys, nice to finally get some clarity.
Brilliant explanations of things guys. I think it was generally clear to some of us why the City charges will take longer to be dealt with but your explanations of the nuances around the different situations is spot on.
Find it hard to believe that no one else other than Everton, forest and city have broken the rules in last ten years
No but Everton have done it in the most embarrassing way... They've spent more money on transfers alone in the last 6 years than any other team not playing in European football.
City been in the dock in the last decade a few times, but day by day more leaks coming out in multiple massive football channels is leading to a anti climax for city
A fair and open discussion that will sail over the heads of many.
Even when no Bundesliga Club passes CL semi-final for the next decades. I am absolutly happy with that, as a german. Thanks to the 50+1 percentage rule. We still have genuine football-clubs, instead of toys of some autocratic systems, who try to schow some kind of excellence to the world.
When you hear someone defend City, it's typically a City supporter or Simon Jordan. The allegations are crazy to hear said aloud.
I still haven't heard anyone specifically name the allegations besides vague "conspiracy to hide evidence" like what exactly is it?
@@truenoae8689 say what?! Dude, it's a laundry list.
@@diddyxl ok name some then
@@truenoae8689 The first was the improper signing of youth talent. The second was cooking the books in the form of the owner spending his own money to make it look like club revenue, which is directly proportional to transfer cap. Fined million of Euros. 2 years on, further investigations found that it was much worse, rising to 40m euro coming from Mansoor.
The newest charge is the most complex because it shows criminal intent to defraud. The 115 newest allegations stem from the evidence that it paid coaches and staff off the books. This again, is directly proportional to the transfer cap. The infused cash to raise the cap and paid staff on the side to show they didn't spend as much as they did. The evidence of this comes from the leak of emails it obtained. Unlike some bodies, using evidence the was provided illegally is inadmissible in court. The FA does not subscribe to that. Further, the only reason why UEFA didn't successfully prosecute them is that City attorney's ran out the stature of limitations.
The FA does not have one. What else can I provide you? This is a criminal back office. Admit it.
@@truenoae8689 where'd you go?
Every time the Premier League make rules you have groups of lawyers and accountants in every club employed by the owners looking at ways to get round them .
Every club does that. Every rule. Even the players try to get away with stuff. That's life.
@@russellward4624 it is supposed to be a sport .
@@josiekaposie5783 was it w sport when utd won the league every year? Breaking transfer record after transfer record? Having higher wage bill than everyone? Is it a sport in Germany where Bayern win 12 in a row? In Spain where Real and Barca win every year and spend triple anyone else?
@@russellward4624 Man U had the most legitimate income and they still do .
@@russellward4624 no Man U fan but they balanced the books
Excellent summary.
Is it true that one of the charges is for having the grass to long? , and are other charges in the same bracket??
They will get something pathetic like an 15 point reduction, one transfer window ban and a few million to pay up. It will end up being a joke of a charge...
Hmm, I actually think it might be a lot bigger than that. Could see a revoking of membership for a few years
as it should be. I see nothing more than a fine being paid, maybe few points deduction that wont afect their CL spot in the following year
Prove the conspiracy theory first before assuming guilt
Go
Nice one again. Actually no, fed up with this. It's pretty simple really isn't it? In terms of 'innocence' of the enormous quantity of breaches that they have been charged with, if they actually were innocent of some/any, there would no need at all for the constant and blatant delaying tactics. They really would have just fronted up and said 'we have absolutely nothing to hide, we are whiter than white in this case, knock yourselves out'. Of course they may still be proven 'innocent' upon full and eventual completion, but the unwillingness to co-operate suggests it's rather massively unlikely. This is all quite apart from just the plain empirical fact that 'big money' talks and clubs like Everton have not got that, and clubs like City have.@@Beyond_Belief534
Lmao they need to actually have cogent proof to back up their allegations first.
Why do i feel like I gain 1 extra IQ point everytime I watch a video on this channel, especially regarding ffp. The most informative football channel on YT
Prbably because you had none to begin with. Adam crafton brings down the average.
😢@@silentwitness536
Denying charges to buy more time to help with more cover up and getting story straight
The only germane question is how the cesspool of FIFA managed to convince any sentient football fan that their rules were about "fair play" and not just about how to GUARANTEE that the playing field will NEVER be level.
Evertons case is independent from Forests, which is independent from Citys. One got caught speeding, the other jumping lights.
- Lpool,Utd,Everton,Forest found guilty
- City found not guilty in Court
- But City alone labeled Cheats
- PL is Clean or Corrupt?🤔
City haven't been caught of anything yet. The others have admitted guilt
@@cosmicbaggy9637ah yeah those 115 charges are just made up right? Didn't realise numbers could lie.
@@joshbracken5450 Are you dense? 115 alleged breaches does not mean your guilty in any way, need to go to court to astablish that.
@@joshbracken5450 Please go to school
Just as in motorsport, whatever the current rules, certain entities will attempt to find gaps/loopholes/gray areas and exploit them for an advantage. Bottom line is that those with massive financial ability and a selfish, authoritarian vein will run roughshod over anyone else. It really started with Abramovich but that which would become CFG saw massive opportunity to outspend everyone, driving the market higher and out of reach of most other clubs. This is where we are today and I'm sure the rot in football is as broad as it is deep - I'm sure everyone remembers the Qatar World Cup and how that was "awarded".
Best world cup in history according to a poll.of over 5 million?
"Confusingly the sale of a player is all taken at once" - as an accountant - that makes perfect sense, once you dispose of an asset, you have to close it's book value. At the same time buying players - I completely understand the justification of amortizing over the length of the contract - again, very normal when buying high value capital assets. The question is... are players assets or employees? It's very strange to see people (rather, their contract value to a company) treated as a capital investment.
People as property - that hasn’t worked out too well historically 😬😬😬
Exactly. Not a good trend, at all @@bazscott
I've seen in a number of places the idea that selling players and replacing them with players that cost the same amount helps with PSR, as you can amortise the cost over 5 years.
My question is: is that only true if you sell for cash up front? If you sell a player and that player is amortised by the buying club, does it not even itself out?
So, is that why selling to clubs in say Saudi, that don't have restrictions so attractive? As it means you can sell for the full value up front as if you wanted to sell to another club in Europe, they are likely to have similar FFP-like rules in place?
Selling to anyone is an immediate amount from an accounting perspective
Buy a player for £100m sell during 4th year for £100m buying replacement for £100m. Amortising each purchase ovr 5 years:
-£20m, -£20m, -£20m, +£40m, £-20m, £-20m, £-20m, -£20m
Buy a player for £100m sell during 4th year for £80m buying replacement for £80m. Amortising each purchase ovr 5 years:
-20m, -20m, -20m, +24m, -16m,-16m,-16m,-16m
Firstly this was a great podcast, now onto the crux of the whole FFP/PSR issue.
These rules were primarily set up to protect the clubs at the top of the food chain and also to try and prevent a Portsmouth happening again.
Man City's case will take a while to conclude but whilst they carry on regardless and continue to win titles they are stopping other clubs from doing so.
These same clubs also can't bridge the gap because they don't have the additional income coming in from the European competitions they could have been in if it wasn't for Man City.
You don't go from League 1 to the top of world football without bending the rules to do so.
Chelsea's position shouldn't be under debate as they admitted irregularities to UEFA and in turn fined them but the Premier League has done nothing as yet.
Finally if you listen to Richard Masters comments at the commission which was addressing the Everton and Nottingham Forest situation, he said the rules apply to everyone even 'The Smaller Clubs'.
This clearly shows he doesn't value either clubs history or just sees them as just part of the 14 who make up the numbers, not a great attempt to appease fans.
"These rules were primarily set up to protect the clubs at the top of the food chain and also to try and prevent a Portsmouth happening again."
Well yeah, they were set up to stop City, except we were lied to when they were introduced. Platini said "We just want clubs to spend their own money" which is all City have done.
"You don't go from League 1 to the top of world football without bending the rules to do so."
City went from league 1 to the premier league before any FFP rules were introduced so wtf are you on about. So which rules do you suggest they bent when going from league 1 to the premiership.
I never said when they broke the rules I just insinuated that they may have done.
Just do the math on the finances available on offer from all revenue streams for clubs in League 1 and the Championship (there's a reason the PL is called the promised land).
So this is only regarding the jump they made since the last ownership change from the corrupt Thai business man.
If City were so in control of their finances (and a big club) why did they need to be given access to a free world class stadium which automatically gave them a matchday attendance boost (well, if the figures are to be believed, Emptihad anyone) over other clubs which increased available revenue that others don't have the luxury of.
Everton then try to build their own self funded stadium whilst reducing the squad to the bare bones and sell promising youngsters to fall foul of FFP/PSR.
If you want to have a conversation about this either turn up with some facts and a reasonable side to the debate or leave it to someone that will.
Thanks
@@user-jv6lm3pr3e "I never said they broke the rules"
Who said you did.
City were over 20k attendance in league 1 and were able to persuade many players (not all but enough) to stick by their contracts.
The stadium wasn't free. The council built the stadium and City paid a rent and conversion costs as tenants just as those renting a house do. Without such a deal the City of Manchester wouldn't have been able to hold the games. City have on numerous occasions tried to purchase the stadium but the council prefers the revenue stream from the rent.
"Newcastle would inflate transfer fees"
Yet Chelsea have spent a billion on players like Lavia and Enzo. Doesn't seem to have affected everyone else has it?
@@user-jv6lm3pr3e "If City were so in control of their finances (and a big club) why did they need to be given access to a free world class stadium which automatically gave them a matchday attendance boost."
See this is another false fact. The stipulation on Manchester building the Commonwealth Stadium was that a club would be found to take over it after the games, or else it would've been another white elephant and a waste of tax payers money. A deal was set in motion for City to take over the running of it before it was built and the council have a contract for gate reciepts up to a certain number (City get the profits over that amount only.) Same contract is in place for West Ham and their Olympic stadium, both councils get a steady income stream from games and concerts there.
If PL punishes City, they will look bad about letting this run for so long. Also, the dominance they have started in Europe will end and wont get any credit for recent achievements . Hence they won’t punish them, however smaller teams will be punished just to depict that regulations are in place.
So why they bring the charges?
Perhaps there will be enough FFP cases heard, punishments applied and appeals heard prior to MC's cases being fulfilled, to allow MC the maximum level of favourable precedents to be applied
in their favour.
One thing that some people don’t seem to be aware of is that amortisation doesn’t have to be split equally. For example, I could buy a player for £100m on a 5 year contract and amortise as
Year 1 - £35m
Year 2 - £30m
Year 3 - £20m
Year 4 - £10m
Year 5 - £5m
You can even accelerate amortisation in any of those years. It’s a common way of businesses generating losses to lower the tax bill, but in football terms a way of future proofing your FFP position if your cash projections are looking good for now.
What clubs cannot do is decelerate amortisation, that would be false accounting.
Not in football.
@@SKa-tt9nm
Yes you can. Randy Lerner did it at Aston Villa for years in order to generate losses. He wanted to write down his assets as quickly as possible.
With City the UAE political link makes it much harder to gain justice, which isn't fair on other clubs. And City have been very aggressively obstructive, yes they're entitled to be but it should be heavily called out
Unfortunately for them there is a stain over their achievements that only their own fans won't admit to publicly. They hate it privately. Pep is the Lance Armstrong of football. Facing up to the public in true Lance style.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
What will you change the excuse to when the PL fails to prove its case?
Way back in 2008, I had a colleague who was a City fan. A proper one, you know, a Niall Quinn-era, where-was-he-when-they-were-League1 kind of fan. And everyone was saying to him at the time 'ah you'll be dominant now, win the league'. And I'll never forget him saying 'Probably but at what cost?' He always had my respect for that.
We hate it privately? Lol. Not a chance. Nothing will ever take away the memories. They can deduct points or relegate, nothing will change that. We’re not really here.
A stain in whose eyes? Their fans won’t care, as no fan would, so it doesn’t really matter.
@@jamesli9380at no cost, apart from the material cost of transfers and wages. It’s not a moral issue.
This is the type of content they need on sky or bbc to explain this to everyone
Punishing Everton and Forest for one or two breaches whilst not yet charging Man City for 115 breaches due to there being so many different type of breaches making it complicated?!
Hmmm okay, so if someone has committed a murder and there’s proof of it, you’d obviously arrest them, but if someone else has committed over 100 murders in several different ways (shooting, stabbing or manslaughter) would you take time to charge them then?! 🤷🏻♂️
Did you actually watch this video.
8:34 this system u talk about only benefits the top 6 clubs that have sell on value within the squad and already have massive sponsorship deals in place from previous years. FFP doesnt help smaller clubs close the gap. Which is what we want. FFP does stop clubs going into irreversible debt which is a plus but it needs adapting spending wise. Newcastle for example shouldnt be forced to selling their stars to raise funds to tick a box for FFP.
Yes they should, because they're the rules that every club signed up to.
They should if they PROCURING Players from Money that is Outside their Operational Profits.
Else we will soon have ISIS & Drug Cartels using Football Clubs to LAUNDER their BLOOD Money similar to How Abu Dhabi Prince is using Man. City & City Group to LAUNDER his OIL-MONEY. PERIOD. 🤫🤡
Newcastle is the richest club in the league. I am sure they will be reet
@@gomey70city was smart before ffp was bought in they went on a massive marketing campaign to get on board any tom dick and harry willing to invest
Re: the pure profit approach, I do wonder if some kind of rule can be implemented to financially incentivise playing academy products. Perhaps so kind of FFP rebate depending on percentage of minutes played by academy grads
I hope not. The way it is at least the rest of Europe can win the European Championship.
City's case, as Matt is explaining, is the perfect example of why you can't allow someone who could even be considered that close to a government official (as well as the case with Abramovich and Putin. Or Newcastle's situation.) to be involved in owning a football club.
It's not just the seemingly infinite pool of wealth in a sport so entirely dominated by money, but once you find a club owned by a country guilty of cheating, it's now a political matter, as well.
Let's say it wasn't spending - let's say the Saudi government started paying clubs to shave goals, match fixing, etc. Let's say they chose to force players to shoot up steroids. The Premier League says, "You can't do that." The Saudi government says, "Well, you can't have oil, then."
Not a likely scenario, it's only meant to be illustrative.
What if the United States government... Sorry, let's say the United States Department of Treasury, decides to buy Burnley. They're hit with an FFP violation, it damages their profitability, and the United States puts in trade restrictions with the UK or some such.
There has to be better criteria for whoever is allowed to own a team, it can't just be the highest bidder.
is Ayo recording from the ceiling ??
If Forest have a timing issue with Johnson, then Everton do with Richarlison.
Also Everton very much do contest as per the club's statement
Force majeure is an event which could not have been forseen and is beyond the contro of the parties. In terms of contracts a force majuere clause WOULD excuse or FREE parties from their contractual obligations rendered unsble to perform.
ive heard theres an agreement on when guardiola leaves in a year or 2? then proceedings will start ?
I believe (or rather hope) the Premier League is setting precedents with other clubs. So, that when it comes to the City case, they can point to other cases and use that as a baseline for City's punishment.
Punishment for what? Prove the case first
I mean, very simply, all clubs have agreed to be compliant with all rules and regulations that come with competing in the prem. They should apply equally without exception.
An independent body decides the punishment, you are taking absolute garbage
@@crews9789 nothing independent about them either
Your comment really just highlights how clueless you are on this topic. The PL don’t decide the punishments, firstly. Also, the PL have to actually have cogent evidence to prove their allegations. So why you are jumping to punishments before anything has even been proven I don’t know.
Clearly Everton have lacked strategy and had poor / naive ownership over the last several years. But if PSR / FFP is designed to support/preserve the existence of a club, it seems to be doing the very opposite in this case. If you are going to create rules, make it clear what the punishments are for non-compliance. Because historically it's been much less. Also - for a club who was very transparent and in partnership with the Prem over the last several years, and taking their own medicine by radical underinvestment in on field talent over the last few years -- it seems like something is broken. The reality is that if Everton and the Prem were working so closely - why were Everton so shocked/suprised by the initial penalty?
I think the way the voting went in regards to the Saudi loans a few months back tells you everything you need to know about how other clubs now feel outside the cartel.
Good pod
Hahahaha Adam Crafton?? One look at his tweets and you realise how out of his depth he is on this topic.
😂 👏🏻
Agree 👍🏻 absolute 🤡
I don't understand why all these charges need to be taken all together. Why not take the most obvious ones and easy to address ones and solve those first
Serious question Michael, if you don’t know, why don’t you do a bit of online reading?
City aren’t accused of 115 different wrong doings.
There is really only 1 serious thing “inflating revenue” and 2 minor things - player image rights which several clubs were found guilty of and made to pay money back including Utd… and finally manager payment to Mancini of just £1m.
These 3 things have triggered 115 duplications in the league rule book. If City prove the Mancini payment was clean, that’s 25 breaches disappeared, as an example.
What is the point in bringing the panel back multiple times to judge 3 things, 2 minor?
It’s the serious breach that everyone cares about.
@@tomben6180if the inflating revenue one is found to be true (and I think it will be), city are f***ed
When will Part 2 be ready? :)
Thank god for The Athletic! You're all doing great work
I love the Athletic but saying that Everton should have known that a deal with Usmanov is risky is complete bullshittery. The whole world was dealing with Russia. GAZPROM WAS THE SPONSOR OF THE FREAKING CHAMPIONS LEAGUE. This is really idiotic saying that Everton should have known Russia could be economically isolated every moment. Extremely poor from you guys
Corruption covers it.
The problem to me is revisiting the same rolling 3 year period after the punishment. The punisherment should reset the 3 year period but be harsh enough to reflect this. It seems harsh to be doing this while clubs can be run with massive debts on the accounts with no assurances it will not be left with the club. Maybe owners should have to pay some kind of bond up front based on a projected club value or something.
It puts a club in Everton's situation in an impossible scenario. Surely now it means they are a repeat offender which would arguably be punished more.
How can they fine them, no money, points is the only viable option for Everton, particularly as the breaches related to insolvency.
Poor Sean Dyche playing on Nightmare Level of difficulty 😅
And doing a great job too. Can't wait to see what happens next season
Punishing City (and I mean a real punish,either relegation or removal of championships type of punishments) are a huge dilemma for the authorities
The obvious is that if they do punish City the fame of the PL will fall,if they relegate them,TV revenue will fall
On the other hand, what made PL great is that it has many teams that are considered big and if you ignore City's charges then you create an enviroment that will end up with 2 very powerful teams and PL will be more like Spain/France/Germany
TV revenue? How many city supporters do you think there are? The prem thrived before and it will thrive after city. Too many big teams. Unless you're suggesting city are holding the prem together and if so you're deluded.
@@joshbracken5450 City vs Liverpool and City vs Arsenal were the biggest games lately. It doesnt matter how many supporters they have. Legaly or illegaly City has a great team that people enjoy watching!
@alexvoyd1132
OJ Simpson FC will not be missed.
@@alexvoyd1132 premier league was built with many great teams not 1 team , TV revenue will not drop , if city get relegated , city started winning in 2008 onwards , before then there was a lot of great football played in the premier league with more than 1 team and will continue with or without man city
Wire tapping refs takes time.
There is a difference between following the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.
Seems to me that another consideration with City is that there are possible diplomatic issues between our two countries should charges be laid against certain high level ppl and/or the club.
Which brings up a really important question on club ownership and conflict of interest. In other other words no country should own a club or business in the UK.
Simple if city are charged by the independent panel? abramovic was forced out, force the abu dhabi sportswashing conglomerate out the club too?
Totally disagree with Matt’s summing up. The Premier league is a massive organisation and is not well managed. It has the perception of being amateurish in the way it is run.
How is it a massive organisation? How many employees do they have? It’s literally tiny compared to sheik mansour
Best ran league in the sport
Enjoyed listening to this. I've never got this mentality from fans about this cartel ruling the roost in the Premier league. How can a big 6 run a league when they need a majority vote with 8 other clubs to get any rule changes. A lot of people call the Premier League corrupt. Surely, that means their club is complicit in this corruption. Far too much victims complex in football fan bases these days. why would a big 6 club be worried about forest or Everton? if you break the rules, you get punished it's as simple as that
The way the league works is that Liverpool and Man Utd run the thing. Arsenal and Spurs are very compliant lapdogs to them. Then you have the other American owned clubs who vote as a block with their redshirted masters. That usually is 12 or 13 clubs in total. Then they try to strong arm the other clubs. Some, like Aston Villa are eager to please their masters (They openly said that they refused to sell Grealish to City and had a pact with the others to not ever sell to them, but the release clause stopped that). Chelsea are sometimes their friends, sometimes not. Newcastle were on their side until their takeover. Obviously Man City are their number one enemy, so it is a constant game of politics behind the scenes. Can the red cartel threaten enough clubs to do what they say or not.
you sound like you've sat in a lot of premier league meetings. At what point do the "Big Six" worry about what Everton and Notts Forest are doing? What strong arm tactics are you suggesting being used? What exactly cam they threaten them with to make them comply? Shock horror a club puts a release clause in someone's contract to protect their assets. I'd say villa have done pretty well from the grealish deal as he's nowhere near a 100 million pound player. So Man City decided to help another Premier League club by being able to amortise 100 million on purchases for years to come? I think you need to remove the tin foil hat
@@Northumberlandgeordie First of all, you can go and google "daily mail Manchester-United-Liverpool-Arsenal-Spurs-join-forces-shackle-spending-Man-City-Chelsea" and the first search result.
The red clubs bully the others with threats of no transfers, behind the scenes backstabbing, etc.
You are obviously stupid, so didn't comprehend the part about Villa forming a pact with their red masters and REFUSING to sell Grealish to them. They actually contacted other clubs and offered him for less than City bid. It was only because of the release clause that the transfer happened. That POS Christian Purslow admitted it at the time.
Levy had a pact with the red scum clubs to never sell Kane to City, no matter the price. All of this information is out there, admitted by the sources, buy you want to pretend that it doesn't happen.
I supposed Liverpool and Man Utd didn't have secret meetings with Masters before he became head of the PL, did they...
I do not know why they are sticking it to Everton and Forest. Maybe they have refused to go along with the scum clubs, so are being punished. Maybe they have no use any more. Who knows really?
The fact that you think that Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs do not act only in their own self interest and want to destroy rivals for those lucrative top 4 spots is astounding. They blocked the Newcastle takeover to begin with. I wonder why? Joe Lewis, John Henry and Stan Kroenke are such "fit and proper persons", after all...
I hate seeing MC win so much BUT if FFP type laws were meant to address unsustainability, it's kinda hard to find a more sustainable club than MC. Now City Group has Girona too. Kinda hard to argue MC is less sustainable than Man Utd for example.
The American way with wage caps and whatnot sounds really decent these days, could take the money out of the question and would allow the best run clubs to win, as it has been beforehand
What also confuses me is that regardless of Everton' and Forests 'guilt' or admittance of financial mistakes, how can (as the panel say, 'draconian') points deduction be appropriate? Have either club benefitted 'on the pitch' for these irregularities? And if so, by how much? Firstly, what algorthm has been used to equate each point deducted? In Everton's case, given their recent history, they could probably expect to have got 40 points this season (just about above relegation). Can the panel justify the current 10 points (25% of expected total) or if this punishment is duplicated, 20 points which would have been 50% of their expected total. Does the punishment fit the misdemeanour? If so, what the hell does this mean for the likes of City if many of the alleged charges are proven? This is why fans are confused and angry and believe they are targetting so called 'smaller' clubs.
The issue is the punishment has to act as a deterrant as well. Otherwise, if it is purely a financial penalty, then teams could and probably will decide to break the rules knowing they can afford the fine. The point of spending money is to improve themselves on the pitch so it is not unreasonable for the penalty to be sporting. Now when it comes to deciding the size of the point penalty this is where things become more difficult to decide what is right or not.
What's funny is in spite of the financial cheating, which was a significant amount of money, Everton are still utter shite.
Agreed. But deterrent doesn't need to be points deduction. It could include tranfer window restrictions, squad sizes amongst others @@oikhena
There is no evidence of cheating by either Everton of Forest. It was in the reports they submitted. Get your facts right. As for being utter shite, without the point reduction Everton would only two points behind Newcastle and four behind Chelsea who recently have spent more on transfers.@@theblahofblah1681
@@tulyar57 I disagree. The point of breaking the rules is ultimately to win more points. So taking away points is logical and reasonable. Other restrictions like you mentioned could be easily circumnavigated by an organisation if they wanted to take a nefarious approach.
Two tier justice. Time clubs got together and insist on pl bringing city to book
That point about relaxing the rules and the Saudis - that's called an open and free market. The PL have put restrictions in place to restrict competition, which goes against anti-competition rules. Why should the "big" six and others be allowed to restrict competition in order to keep their status quo, that's actually illegal
Time and Time Again the very fact those figures used to decide how much loss is allowed is based on 2014 costs and prices of player's and wages, when everyone knows such figures used change, increase every year.
The disingenuous basis of the facts and arguments of this issue is staggering.
It makes me bloody mad.
The Forest situation is not surprising but also totally ridiculous because of the lack of clarity regarding the Chelsea situation. 600m spent in a winter transfer window alone with players on 8-year contracts. Clearly, it's more complex to gather information and put together a case but surely Chelsea is culpable of breaking FFP rules as well.
They do talk about Chelsea
No thought given to the sales and the sales to come in the future for Chelsea. People like you are so stupid.
Also sold 300m worth of players in the same wimdow
When are football fans going to talk about football please 😢😢😢
If it is a question of lying, as you say, then the case is even more important to expedite.
It is paramount that lying should be punished severely and stamped out. If they are not lying then that also needs to be established quickly.
If Man City are drawing out the proceedings that raises a prima facia presumption they are guilty.
The longer it takes, if they are found guilty, then the punishment must be the greater.
The City Football Group, through some very astute lobbying of the New York Times, are probably very influential when it comes to The Athletic.
1:03 Everton was found to have exceeded FFP limits by 19.5 million quid, it proves they have poor accountants actually.
It comes down to whether interest payments on a loan can be attributed to the stadium project or not. Everton argued they could (as without the stadium they wouldn't have taken a loan), the PL decided they couldn't.
@@philipmalcolm4550 And no sporting advantage gained, so the corrupt pl decides to impose a sporting penalty.
No they were not they were that much over after adjustments
Same accountants as man city
@@boipink I'll take the Premier League and Everton's word for it over yours.
I know it's just speculation, but the FA certainly benefits from having teams like Man City and Newcastle in the league; they are appealing to watch, and audiences will follow their journey to success. Smaller teams like Everton and Forest won't have the backbone those "bigger" clubs have, both financially and legally; they'll certainly find pathways to defend themselves effectively.
I can assure you everton and forest have more regard and acknowledgement amongst the british fans! City definitely cant even rival spurs or west ham for loyal fans in Britain! Money doesnt make you huge overnight but it can win you alot! Gives more power to flex your muscles but it can't buy a massive loyal uk fanbase in the space of 15 years? City very dependent on the foreign so called social media fanbase which sits at 95% compared to uk 5% hence why the word plastic is justified! No hate just straight facts!
The 115 FFP violations are a lot to process. 😂
I would not be advising anyone at the premier league to come out and making a statement about the MCFC charges. It could be fuel to their defence. Let the process be results oriented in its campaign against them.
Mate the more I watch this the more an getting angry if your going to commentt on Everton learn your facts u go on about Everton spending money u talk about spending to much.on buying players that had nothing to do with it the rules changed
when we was building the ground this ment we wasn't able to put the interest on that. ment we went over 19 mill u forgot to mention we did spend 725 mill on players an sacking manager an were still crap but since 2015 to 2023 I will make it easy for u how many players did we sell. An work out what we actually spent forest went over 35 mil so beleavep
they're all big 6 mouthpieces mate. every one of them
@@mikeb3018 mate it's doing my Head in they tell half truths an it's not actually right what there saying there following main stream media then come out on there channel thinking they know it all but what gets me bro is that people beleave it they think what there saying is facts
@@billy7966 the athletic did a piece linking the new bramley moore stadium to slavery then turned the comments off. cancelled my subscription with them immediately
Fun fact, accusing a rival of cheating without proof is cheating
Shocking isn't it?
what?
Are you going too keep repeating the same shitty comment everywhere 😂
How does one gather 115 accusations without one being true?
@@barryb90 A liar can falsely accuse you of 115 different things
By your logic they must be right about you then 🤣😵💫
@@barryb90 i charge you for 115 counts of rape. There, you are accused