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38 Special +P Remington HTP 158gr LSWCHP! | Clear Ballistics Gel Test
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- čas přidán 16. 09. 2022
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Seen good results with LSWCHP in my LEO career. Seen 40 SW fail on several shooting. No round is perfect. Shot placement is king
I used this round (it was called the FBI Round then) to take out a hostage taker in a motel lobby in the early ‘80s. We were just over arm’s length apart & I was armed w/our agency’s 4” Model 15 S&W. It worked for me and the hostage was saved. For anyone who doubts this check out the Fall 2016 edition of American Handgunner. Mas Ayoob published “Out of Ammo” and my story was verified by copies of police reports & witness statements. It seems like immature wanna bees like to call out others w/o checking the facts first.
That is intense.
Yes, it sure was.
What movie was that from?
Is your name Charles Bronson or Clint Eastwood?
Always assume a testimonial is valid, unless proven otherwise.
If going with an old school round like this, why not just use a hardcast full wadcutter. That flat face and sharp angle profile cause it to be a hard hitter. I carry the Underwood full wadcutter out of my snubby. I concentrate on shot placement, follow up shots, and controllability. Im sure people are wondering why, if using Underwoods, I don't use the 158 LSWCHP +P. I tried it and found the recoil to be brutal out of my concealment Model 10 with the heavy 4 inch barrel. My backup piece is a Model 442 Airweight and the load is pure torture. If I want to deal with that kind of recoil, Id switch to a 357 Magnum. I chose to go with 38+P because it's controlable and effective. In my Model 10, I carry Remington 125+P Golden Sabers and in my Modle 442 snubby I carry the full wadcutters from Underwood. The Golden Sabers are pleasant to shoot, accurate, and good for follow-up shots. The full wadcutters are the same. I feel confident in my carry rig and ammunition choices. Long live the revolver.
It just seems like, unless you get to Underwood or Buffalo Bore velocities and pressures, you're just not going to get enough "umph" outta these bullets. They seem to perform great when you punch them out enough. Otherwise, you might as well go with a solid wadcutter or semi-wadcutter.
This load seemed to work on the streets back in the day, but the modern loadings seem to wimp out. Back in my first Cop days in the very late 70's till the early 80's this was a common load, along with the 125 gr JHP in a plus P loading.
What sucks is that they neutered this round a bit. I have 2 boxes of the older version of this.
I own two heavy barreled model 10 revolvers and and believe those and the colt diamond back 38 specials are the greatest 38 revolvers ever made. just my opinion.papa
I can get on board with that lol.
Smith for sure , Colt not so much
Back in the 1970s when .38/.357 revolvers were commonly found in the holsters of LEOs the 158grn LSWCHP +P was THE service round, so much so, that civilians gravitated to it in their revolvers. The round was so effective that it garnered at least two nicknames the "Chicago Round" and the " Detroit Round". Detectives/Investigators/Agents, carrying two and two and a half inch revolvers as well as Uniform Road Dogs, with their four inch revolvers, and the afore mentioned civilians had good reason to praise the round. Then along came the 9mm semi-auto pistol craze that has come to dominate the handgun market. I was a bit taken aback by the poor performance of the ammo you used in this video having seen LSWCHP +P rounds expand, dramatically so, in the real world of self-defense. I did notice one thing though, the shoulder on the bullet itself is less pronounced than the ammo I was issued and purchased for personally owned revolvers back in the 1970s and into the 1980s. I think the design change and possibly the casting hardness may have led to a far less effective bullet than the earlier design. By the way, the LSWCHP bullet, when fired from a three or four inch .44Spl, was a deer level stopping round back then too.
Yeah it definitely has potential. Other ammo manufacturers have made it with more success.
I think part of the present day problem with ammo like this is that due to lawsuits in todays world, ammo that is now called +p, is not what +p was back in the days when revolvers were the usual side arm of police officers.
To prove the point, look at old copy’s of reloading manuals such as Lyman, then look up the same load in a current manual and you will see quite a difference between old and new.
Even some non +p loads in old manuals, are hotter than current +p loads.
@@craigcook1571 Agreed!
You are correct , Buffalo Bore has a load like this with soft lead and it's wicked good
I totally agree! As a former LEO much of the 38 special hate was unwarranted. Was it the best, no but in reality no handgun round was or is. Every single round has its strengths and its weaknesses. What the 38 special was able to be was a good overall compromise for a good deal of situations that confront LEO’s. Not perfect and not best but certainly not the miserable failure so many talking heads make it out to be. The fact is that for the better part of a century it was the standard of law enforcement not just here but much of the world. It is an easy round to train with and shoot well with good shot placement. The best round in the world doesn’t matter if you can’t effectively hit the target.
If you want true +P ammo, you’ve gotta load your own, or if you’re not a reloader get the stuff from Buffalo Bore or Underwood (they add wizard piss to their ammo, thats why its so good 😊).
For example they make a 158 HCSWC (Hard Cast Semi-Wadcutter) that out of a 4 inch S&W Model 15 is doing 1161 fps. I tried some that my friend had and it was less than 25 fps off of advertised velocity in his 4 inch Smith&Wesson.
I have some Buffalo bore 158 lswchp, video coming soon, it’s hot hot. Lol
I get similar results with that Remington round, but more consistent velocities and I use a ProChrono too. I do get some expansion with less denim, but no expansion with 4 layers. Good test, thanks!
Thanks have a nice rest of the day.
Thanks, you too buddy
Thank you for the video ! I carry these in my 642.
The Buffalo Bore and Underwood loads use soft lead and load them hot. A little over 1,000fps from a 2 inch and they expand very reliably.
Thank you, you saved me a lot of money as I was going to buy a lot of these. Plus I have an old M&P and I can see that a plus p won't blow it up.
Be careful running a lot of +p in that old smith.
Reminds me of the old W/W Silvertips, 6" barrel, perfect, 4" barrel, they were ok, 2" barrel, just like a FMJ. I was hoping for better results here. Thanks TGD.
I was hoping for better results too. Thanks ol buddy
Seemingly, unlike most, I'm pretty happy with those results. I've lived my whole life (half a century now) South of the 36th northern parallel, so denim tests don't mean much to me - fat and nekkid is pretty much how we roll. 😂 I appreciate your vid!
4 layers of demi is the extreme. I say do it with a hoodie and maybe 2 layers of tee shirt. Probably more realistic. 😏
I agree, however 4 layers of denim is the standard set by the FBI a long time ago. May not be practical but does provide an even playing field across the board.
The 125 HTP Semi-Jacketed hollow point is where it's at - from a 4" or snubby.
I carry a Taurus 605 .357 magnum & carry Remington HTP .357 magnum 125 grain SJHP loaded for PD. Very good round
@@thomaspalmer7900 I used to carry the same, but I decided to go +p**** afterall. I shot them at night and quickly changed my mind🤩
@@brianblackburn-author7531 yeah I hear the muzzle flash at night is brutal!!!!
Thanks for testing these. The ones through denim looked like they did tumble, which seems to be common with the heavier 38 loads. Penetration was good and consistent. Not a terrible result overall, but I agree that the lighter weight bullets seem to be a better choice in the .38. Still, that old bullet design was used for decades by law enforcement officers. It must have worked fairly well as a balance between controllable recoil and terminal effectiveness. It probably still would in the right hands.
I was really hoping these things opened up and did a little better, I really think they are a super cool round
Good test, reminds me of the old days where nothing expanded. It'd be interesting to try 38 Special 130 Fed HST with ballistic chicken!
That was the answer pre-198x. Remington cast the softest lead and it was known to lead barrels. I wonder if they hardened their formula?
Could be, hard to tell what Remington is trying to do anymore lol. Thanks for watching!
That's what I read as well. Remington, Winchester and Federal in that order. I still feel well protected with these old-school LSWCHP loads
I too stick with the lighter grain weights in a 38 Special snub nose. My preference is also the 110gr +P hornady critical defense.
Thanks for the show and tell.
The 110g hornady is hard to beat right now out of a snub. Thanks for watching!
I like SWLHP. Carry them for years. May not do much on a jell block but I have seen bad guy dropped with them. Most HP in 38 spl don’t expand due to low velocity.
Go check out the Buffalo bore version of this I tested. Way better
Holy crap! This is the ammo I've been carrying in my m10 4 inch. I'm switching to my THUNDER RANCH. 44SPL. 😮
125 is probably better for the 38 special if you want expansion. Those scalloped semi jackets are pretty good.
Thanks
Thank you for watching
So a good defensive round at the nudist colony, but not really anywhere else.
Lol pretty much
Well, if you're attacked by a naked guy, you really need it to work
@@wernervoss6357 😂😂
Good thing is you don't really need expansion to be effective especially with flat point LSWC OR FULL WC.
I go with the light load in my snubby as well. A little more velocity and I think the HTP would do the trick. Thanks for the video.👍🇺🇸
I agree with the lighter bullets. I tend to do that in all calibers. Shorter the barrel, lighter the bullet.
@@thegundungeon The downfall of the lighter projectile is that the point of impact is well below point of aim at 25 yards. Most .38 Spl/ 357 Mag revolvers with fixed sights are sighted in for 25 yds with standard velocity ammo. Lighter bullets mean lower bullet impact. Higher velocity is also lower impact on target.
@@MarineBoar true, but I honestly haven’t seen much poi change in my newer 642. Maybe they changed it, or maybe the barrel is so short it don’t change it much. Who knows.
@@thegundungeon Sights take into account that the hand guns recoil raises the muzzle before the projectile leaves the barrel.. The faster the bullet goes, the shorter the time the projectile is in the barrel. :)
@@MarineBoar correct, and the shorter the barrel, the less effect this plays on POI
Okay, I think I know what is happening here.
The Original SWCHP 158 gr was a dead soft bullet that you could mark with your finger nail.
Sometimes manufacturers try and save money by mixing the lead to make more bullets per 100 lbs of lead.
Check out the Buffalo bore version of this I tested.
@@thegundungeon Haha, I have a box on the way as we speak.
@@johnwolfen4243 you won’t be disappointed in the performance, but they are a handful in a j frame lol
Come over on request from Kentucky Patriot asking his fans to check out your channel. I’ve carried a 38 sp for so long now I can’t even remember when I didn’t. I like the old wadcutters, I appreciate you showing this and it makes me see my old wadcutter ammo may be better for the range then self defense. I also was hoping this ammo had done better myself. Good shooting to you and yours 🔫🎥💯👍
I have a couple good videos with 38 special. I’ve found the 110g ftx bullets tend to perform well in snub nose, hard to get the velocity to make heavies reliably expand with that short of a barrel. Thanks for watching!
@@thegundungeon thank you for the reply. After I finish my work today I’ll check out that video and some of your other ones too. Got a old Hillbilly from the NC mountains as a new sub to the channel. Thanks again and talk to ya soon good shooting and gods speed to you and yours. 🔫🎥💯👍💪🏽
When I carry my snub nose I use 110gr +P in it. To me if you go any heavier you don’t get the bullet to mushroom right.
That’s typically been my experience too with the exception of the federal hst micro 130g
The old "FBI load" was the king of the hill back in the day, and it still performs well enough out of a duty revolver. Fortunately, it's been supplanted by better technology. Still, I wouldn't want to be standing in front of a snubby belching out those pills.
That same round in a .357 is interesting, partially explodes and still penetrates to around 14”!
I will definitely try those lol
@@thegundungeon They performed decent from my 3" .357, not so good from my friends 1 7/8ths .357.
Is the M&P late enough to have a hardened cylinder? Didn't think any of those were rated for +P until the 10-4 or so, except the .38/44 "Heavy Duty" ones that turned into the Model 20.
I wouldn’t recommend it, but as Paul Harrel says, “don’t try this at home, I’m what you call a professional” lol 😂
We need to plan another range day bro!
Yes we do, I may have some time off coming up soon
Gelblock Jerry Holding down the fort
He’s hangin in there lol
That denim was plugging up the hollow point and acting like a FMJ.
For sure
Correct. Until I figured out how to avoid that I had ordinary SWCs. OK now.
UGH! A let down for sure, but as always an enjoyable and informative video. By the way, I still would not hesitate to carry this round as a woods load.
I agree, I was disappointed. Thank you sir!
New subscriber. Sent by "The Kentucky Patriot"
Awesome, thank you! I hope you enjoy the content!
The speeds you got from those rounds don't seem to be +P, they are more like standard pressure 38 special. Still, that 158 grain is a heavy bullet. Much heavier than I would trust out of a snubby revolver (which is my daily carry btw). I wouldn't use anything over 125 grain if using hollow points, and I personally carry HCD 110 grain +Ps in mine. These short barrels just don't provide enough speed for most hollow points to work well.
Those velocities aren't +P, so Remington need to work on their truth in advertising. However the round really depends on the quality of the bullet material and construction and the 158grain standard pressure SWHP in a snub has a lot of merit. Love to see more of the testing from other manufacturers, the Federal Train and Defend 158grain would be a good one next, perhaps with the Buffalo Bore and Underwood options also. Have to factor recoil and split times against the average snub weight and shooter skill, so standard pressure is the way to go.
I’m already looking around for other manufacturers, seems this one was quite popular lol
@@thegundungeon Look forward to seeing similar quality testing. The 158grain LSWHP has decades of street cred and its design still holds up today. Even when it doesn't expand the sectional density of the rounds would perform will since anatomy isn't gel and crushing through bone to meet the required penetration while tumbling is critical.
For sure. A +P lead load should definitely be over 900 fps from a 4” barrel unless they’re using a powder that’s way too fast burning.
Lead to hard need a gas check. Bump up the speed.
I'm yet to see a 158 grain hp of any kind expand other than Buffalo Bore
It’s not the best weight for 38 special. I tested those Buffalo bore loads and dang, they have some recoil from a snub lol
That was kinda disappointing lol. Great video though. Great info.
I was hoping for better! Thanks man!
Bump
Well that was disappointing. I have some of this ammo as I have been intrigued by the "FBI Load," and this is just about the only version available. Traditionally, I've eead the Remington version was a more reliable expander than either the Winchester or Federal
Buffalo bored has good fbi load in plus p
I was really wanting it to do well.
😁👍
When a company puts +p on something it should at least hit max standard pressure. Most rounds to day to not.
This ammo represents nothing new. I have carried 158lhp by Buffalo Bore for years the standard pressure 158 lhp hits between 850-900 fps out of 2 inch barrels. The plus p version hits over 1050 fps. This new Remington is just the sos, with a new box.
Yeah this design has been around for a very long time. Lots of people have loaded it. This is just Remingtons version
And pretty anemic version. You can hand load hotter standard pressure version
Seems like when they switched to the htp they screwed up the bullet itself and made it to hard.
Why are you shooting plus p out of an older smith and Wesson?
It can take a few, just not a steady diet. Remington ammo isn’t exactly known for being a powder house so I wasn’t too worried about it. In the Buffalo bore version of these, I left this little smith out lol.
Wow.....!
Pretty disappointed !
I stopped by after having previously watched the
HTP in 22 Magnum !
Which I thought it was showing some promise, but they had not yet fired it from a 4 inch barrel.
My hope was that more velocity might open up the round more, and make a larger wound channel !
Interestingly enough, they seemed to share similarities with the 38's in that they had good penetration, but left small wound channels !
The plus side for the 22 Magnum's IMHO, would be the number of rounds on target, in short order, as some guns are holding 30 rounds !
❤️🙏🇺🇸💯⚖️
Kinda anticlimactic given how legendary this load is.
Yeah I was really hoping for it to do better
Stuff is a JOKE... Only kind I use in my .38s is the Buffalo Bore or Underwood +P that run at the the original .38-44 velocities...
Pls, normalize you intro music to the same level as your voice. I'm over 70 and remember the 158 gr SWC as an accurate target bullet and hunting bullet. The Dallas LEO lab did bullet testing back in the day and determined that an expanding hollow point added to the 158 gr SWC could add to damage done by the bullet.. Tests were done with their 4" bbl service revolvers. / Elmer Keith notorious LEO gun fighter on our Southern boarder noted gun writer and the man who convinced S&W to develop the 44 Mag cartridge from his over pressured .41 Spl cartridges from Colt SA revolvers, Keith made some changes to the "standard SWC and gave us the "Keith style SWC." / Hollow points weren't reliable back then The first commercially offered hollow points that I saw that worked were Super Vel in 110gr .38 Spl and .45 ACP. We called the 110gr ""flying buckets" and the 45s "flying ashtrays." Both had very large holes in the frontal lead of their jacketed bullets. / I wouldn't look for an expanding bullet from a .38 Spl snub nosed revolver load shooting beyond 10' ( store bought load) to be honest.
Thank you for the input on music. Yeah it seems the lighter bullets do better from the snubs, the 110g ftx hornady in particular, which I have a video on, but I really wanted this one to do good because I always loved the idea of the 158g lswchp fbi load
@@thegundungeon I have a Ruger SP101 2"" as a house gun. I love the .357 Mag 158gr SWC as you can roll 12ga hulls at 15~20 yds with them. Wife uses it as well so its full on 148gr wadcutter target loads on slow side as she has a hard time with recoil. / Something I never got around to that you might try. Back in the '60's a reader wrote in to one of the gun mags looking for a .38 Spl load for his store that had reduced injury outside his store. The writer told him to try a hollow based wadcutter loaded in reverse in the case with a minimum charge of ;powder. His comment was that it would have enough power to injure the bad guy and if you missed the bullet would expend any remaining on a window and fall to the sidewalk outside. A fast powder like Bullseye is good for starting according to the books. I wonder in this age of power coating and baked on finishes if you did that to a lead bullet if you can't get away using powders that give higher velocity without leading the barrel? That would be something to look at on a crony to see maxed out velocity per powder amount burned. ( Newspaper in front barrel to look for unburned powder.)
@@MarineBoar I’ve heard of doing that and have messed with it myself, it’s just not something I want to put a video out on as it’s outside the design of the bullet. I actually talk about that in my other 38 special video I put out a few years ago. One of my earlier videos. I’ll link it for you
38 special snub ballistics gel test
czcams.com/video/hqs22-M4f8c/video.html
@@thegundungeon Thanks for the link another fine video. When you can I'd like to see what wadcutters do in you gel pack. As I said below, I keep my Ruger "long barrel" snubby ( 2.25" ) loaded with 148 gr .38 Spl store bought wadcutters for reduced recoil for my wife. I don't expect any expansion. I do expect to see a .357"" hole cut going into the perp tho. I expect the same from 158 gr SWC's. An exit hole would be appreciated as remaining velocity would be low.
@Echosdad2 Thanks for the llink. The results are about what I expected.
Thanks! I won't be buying these.
Check out the Buffalo bore version of these I tested.
Why does every gun video have to have annoying music?
Because the creator likes the music. You should make some videos and show me how it’s done