đŁ.38 Special - Buffalo Bore "FBI Load" Ballistic Gel Test (.38+P VS .38 Standard Pressure)
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 8. 08. 2022
- Testing out the Buffalo Bore .38 Special LSWC-HP ammunition in standard pressure VS +P in 4" and 2" barrels. I do a 10% Clear Ballistic gel test with 1/4" medium density fiberboard to represent ribs or sternum. I also shoot from 12 yards for practical accuracy and chronograph them. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.com/user?u=5828221
- Sport
Interesting presentation Sam. I was forced to use the old FBI load in the early â80s to rescue a hostage in a motel lobby. We were slightly more than two arms lengths apart and the round dropped the suspect, allowing the hostage to get away unhurt. The suspect lived after being hit center chest, neck & leg, to do a long stretch in prison. For your viewers I was using my issued 4â Model 15 S&W. Unfortunately these rounds are out of stock almost everywhere today.
Thanks for sharing your interesting experience. I think some people would be interested in your experience which would probably translate to the Buffalo Bore standard pressure in a 4" and their +P in a 2".
My old dept issued 158 gr Nyclad +p SWCHP for those carrying .38s (at least most of the time ... State Bid prices could overrule good ballistics). I appreciate you sharing your experience (and, of course, great work!). Most of us only used .38s for BUGs/ODGs and of the few who carried a wheel gun, the only thing shot that I recall was a truck. The truck was, unsurprisingly, not impressed ... until the tire flattened and the rim shattered. ;) Anyway, Sir, well met!
Thanks for sharing that, partner. You saved a life that day. I do not imagine that your boy bounced right back after that. Knocked the wind out of his sails.
Thanks @Old Cop so this one very close range what about your other OIS? Did you use one hand or 2 on revolvers and do you remember front sight clearly or point shooting??? Thanks
@@DanTheWolfman Both of my other OIS were in the dark w/my .38, no night sights then. One was a break in at a liquor store after dark & the other was on a dark outside parking lot, November, 1974. Three suspects held up a liquor store and decided to shoot it out w/us rather than be arrested. In the aftermath one officer was shot but recovered (no vests then), one suspect was killed, one was arrested seeking treatment for a GSW at a hospital the next day & the third bad guy surrendered at the scene. I donât remember if I used one hand or two until the last OIS in the motel lobby, and then it was two hands. As an aside I stay out of liquor stores today but at 75 Iâm not much of a drinker.
Buffalo Bore standard pressure is beyond what most companies load their supposed "+p" to. Great ammo, hard to beat that performance.
My absolute Go-To Round for carry, the Non +p 158gr FBI load by Buffalo Bore! I carry them in all my revolvers with a short barrel. As a vintage revolver guy it helps with the authenticity as well. Great video and thank you for sharing.
One of the best load in .38 spl ever made. The old&venerable .38 still rules!
Absolutely
Couldn't agree more. I thought maybe it was time to move my .38 SD load choice into the 21st century, and have been going through all the old test vids. After seeing this one, I think I'm sticking with "the FBI load".
@@faryldaryl3975 look at what the +P did to that block Whoâs gonna handle more than 3 of those
Yes. Asked the last old timer that still carried 38S. He was an experienced home loader.
I was expecting he carried 21st century tech in his J frame.
Cylinder full of soft lead 158g Wad cutters. Fbi loads, and soft lead ball were at top of his list. I thought it was a fud call.
Turns out he knew what he was talking about.
@@Lateralus1007 trust me. Thereâs some really angry people out there that ainât wired like you and me.
Shot Buffalo Bore +P in my Taurus 38 Special model 85. That stuff is the power of some companies 357 or close to it. It shook the pistol out of timing. I had to send it to Taurus to have it repaired. Use a Smith or Ruger if you want to shoot BB 38+P, Brutal!!!
Buffalo Bore recently raised their prices on all their ammunition and now I can't really afford it anymore.
Choices in the old days were limited but not all of them were crap. .38 is very underestimated round and will do well with a decent load, even if itâs old school.
Nice performing load, one of the best 38 loads for years now. Thanks for the video!
those 158 LSWCHP's looks like is all you need in a 38/357 revolver they hit with more than enough authoritah!!đŁđ„ love those 38 spl videos thanks Sam.
Thanks, Sam. Back in the late 80's, this is the load in carried in my J frame. Nice to see that it actually worked as designed.
I was really impressed with velocity out of the 2" barrel. These are really serious defense loads. Thanks for another really well done video, really worth while information.
Great Video. Those Buffalo Bore loads are impressive.
that was wonderful expansion for both 4 and 2 inch barrels.ive shot and tested jhp factory ammunition and my reloads and many fail to get close to that expansion. been doing this 43 years and that's awesome.papa wishing you well.
Thanks, another good and interesting comparison. Thanks for taking time to share this with us. Take care.
900+fps(2bbl.")and 1000+fps(4"bbl.") with a 158gr. projectile, is plenty of power for a self defense situation, with good expansion and penetration also.
Iâm really impressed with what you were getting out of the BB ammo. Iâm shooting primarily .38spcl. Iâll have pick up some of these. Great video, thanks.
Great video and commentary, as usual. Have been wanting to see an evaluation of these. I wouldn't feel under-gunned with either of those in a "normal" street encounter. Thanks so much.
Thanks for your work Sam. I know it must be a lot of work putting these videos together, shooting, editing, etc. You do a good job and I REALLY APPRECIATE the revolver info and ammo demonstrations, ballistic tests. I am revolver nut and mostly 38 special/ 357 so videos like this are right up my alley in interest. Take care-MN
Thanks. It's a lot of work, but the kind that seems like it's not work at all.
I carry the +P version in my SP101 2.25â. They are both accurate and manageable. I also use them in my home defense GP100 4.2â. Great videoâŠthanks.
Nice flow and clear results summary. Dig it.
Gotta try some of that in my 38. Thanks for the video Sam.
Perfect! Thatâs great information. Thanks, Vince
Thanks, that was a good test and I agree with your conclusion; the standard pressure cartridge may have the advantage at the end of the day. First, you have to have the gun with you. Second, you have to be able to hit the target. THIRD, you need to make follow-up shots.
đ good stuff! My wife and I carried BB +p in our J frames for years. We bet our lives on it.
Thank you Sam! I asked of this a bit back and you delivered! I carry by policy a .38 Spl chambered revolver on my security retirement gig and the +P load is in my speedloaders and Model 67 S&W. Oh and Shhh! My BUG Model 49 Bodyguard!
That will be our secret. I'm still carrying my BUG M37 from 1980.
When that FBI load was in its prime, it was state of the art. We are lucky to have better bullets now
Awesome to see this test. Some time back, I communicated with RimRock bullets about this very bullet. They are the ones that make this and some other cast bullets for BB. Their take is that this bullet will deliver optimal performance at 1000 fps OR LESS. That was good to hear since I can get about 900 or so in my Taurus 856. You just clearly confirmed that. It seems that this bullet will perform very well at velocities where a JHP (even the vaunted 125 gr) don't really work all that well. Obviously 'magnum' or +P velocities are unnecessary for this bullet. Great job as always.
Really excellent presentation. Thank you.
Excellent review very well done
That's pretty awesome 38 special performance,
With modern commercial loadings 38 is usually a very underwhelming non expanding round,
But this is really nice.
Appreciate the analysis.
Another most excellent video.
Your timing is impeccable. I just got a S&W 442 J-frame. Iâve been considering the Buffalo Bore short barrel along with the Underwood +P. Thanks for the great ballistic knowledge as always.
I would be sure to test them for bullet creep in a gun that light, shoot 4 and look at the last one.
I carry BB 110 Barnes and 130 HST in mine.
From what I've garnered from your videos et al; Buffalo Bore seems to have more consistent velocities than Underwood.
Great Video Sam!!!
Wow, Buffalo Bore makes kick@$$ ammo for every application. It never disappoints.
Thanks for another great video
Great comparison, thanks very much.
I am glad you doing this video about .38 calibur from buffalo 𩬠Bore. Because I just ordered some đŻ. Let em rip bro đ€
I have yet to find a bad Buffalo Bore round. You get what you pay for, you will see more consistency with them just by looks, also by accuracy and velocity. Packaging is perfect too.
Appreciate this info. Been looking for something like this for a 3â revolver and a snubbie as well.
Excellent information. Thanks!
Awesome video Sam, thanks đđ
Thank you
Great comparison, good video
That's some pretty good stuff. Thanks
Great testing Sam. These old skool classics are hard to beat. đ©đđŻđ±â ïžđșđČđșđŠđ±đ»đźđŒđžđđ«
Your the man gun Sam!!!!!
I was pretty impressed with the Buffalo Bore expansion along with the penetration. This BB bullet seems to expand better than loads from the big three that have been manufacturing this load since it was conceived. Obviously BB doesnât just pack in the powder and call it good. The advantage of a 158 grain bullet is that it will probably shoot point of aim, or at least closer to POA out of a .38, particularly a short barrel compared with the accuracy of lighter, highly regarded self defense loads. It should be noted that the so called FBI load was actually something the St. Louis, MO police department came up with in collaboration with one of the ammo manufacturers and apparently wasnât quick give credit where credit was due, contrary to how Jeff Cooper was to those who pioneered techniques that he incorporated into Modern Pistol and other contributions.
Pretty good performance. Really more like a +P and a mild .357 magnum. Those bullets are available from Rim Rock as a component.
Thanks for the video. I have a Smith model 65 3" and use the BB +P for self defense. A lot hotter and energy than the SGD .357 mag. 135 gr short barrel. Looks like the standard pressure BB might be a better choice for follow up shots.
Best load for 38 Special!
Good video Sam.
Thank you
It looks like pretty good performance. Quite some time ago, I purchased a modest supply of both types from Buffalo Bore. I've not had to use them as yet & I pray I don't have to use them for their intended purpose.
Great content! Iâm glad the 38 special is getting some appreciation. All Yankee Marshall does is trash it along with 380
Great info. Thanks
Ideal performance for a 38 Special. I would use the +P as you may have to shoot at a distance.
Back in the day I tested various .38 loads from my 2" j frame. All of the big 3 158+P failed (Remington did the best due to the lead being softer. I didn't have a chro, but the Winchester penetrated deeper with very little expansion, the Remmy was second and the Federal finished last. Decades went by and I happened to get some of the BB and my good friend "the Brassfetcher" tested them in gel and got 1006 fps. The bullet expanded very well and penetration was pretty good too. He also tested their 125+P and got 1235 fps from the same gun.
Just bought a 38 special snub nose thanks for the video very informative
Glad to see ads in your CZcams presentations. I am letting them run out to the end. Hope it helps.
DOUG out
Well done! I have to chuckle a bitâŠI have a 3â model 36⊠love my wheel guns!
Love to see you test those super vel 38s now that youâve been using gel
Super Vel told me they were sending me all this various ammo a year ago, then never did. Until they follow through it's hard to justify buying from them, when as a company they are showing that they can't be trustworthy.
@@GunSam If you can't get them, we probably can't get them either, so why bother?
@@frankhinkle5772 The CEO contacted me, said that they will send whatever I want, even if not in stock they will get it to me. I figured after about a year this probably means they have forgotten.
@@GunSam Call them back. You probably spoke to some woke nerd that doesn't care. I'm sure the owner will gladly send you his ammo.
Cool video thanks.
Those loads are well into 9x19mm power levels. I have no idea how important split times are in real shooting (defensive, hunting). My guess is that competition split times vs making sure you hit a real threat split times are going to be quite different. Based on my still limited experience with the S&W M&P340 shooting 125gr & 140gr magnum loads, I'll say you can still dump a cylinder pretty quickly at close range.
Great video love these quantitative analyses, they are very informative. Question...have you ever tried the PPU equivalent to the standard pressure bullets you tested here, and if so what were your impressions? Thanks a lot and keep the videos coming! (I am also a wheel gun fan)
BOTH rounds did excellent in BOTH guns, I'd say this is a great choice for all .38 special revolvers.
Great ammo
Either way I was impressed with both calibur .38's đ
More penetration from the 4 inch barrel between the standard and +P. That is a definite benefit in the heavier gun where the cost of recoil and follow-up shots is minimized.
The FBI shot it mainly from 3 inch S&W mod 10/13 revolvers. (Maybe also mod 64/65) Quite comfortable to shoot out of these.
I'm impressed with those results. I've seen these loads tested elsewhere and it wasn't as successful. Maybe BB is getting their bullets from a different supplier or they changed the alloy.
Thanks again for a great video. I load my wife's Taurus 85 (used to be mine but she claimed it) with Federal 129 grain +P JHPs for regular carry plus it is our bedside table gun. But in Spring time here in Black bear country, I load it with Buffalo Bore 158 grain +P LSWC Hard cast. Pretty stout recoil with it in the little gun, but she handles it ok. Have you ever tested that load?
Thank You
I didnt know 38 special could be that hot, I would happily carry that load in my wheelgun
Likewise
Sam, I bought some of that Buffalo Bore L-SWC HP. Do you feel that this is the best self protection ammo for a 2" Revolver? I know a lot of ammo won't expand at all through a 2" barrel. I also was wondering if you had ever tried the Remington HTP + P ammo and if that was adequate or acceptable expansion through a 2" barrel.
Thanks for all your video's. You explain a lot more than most people do that do ammo reviews. It's hard finding good reviews on ammo for the 2" revolvers.
I saw a little different on the 2â between +p and standard. Thank you for posting this.
You should do an underwood comparison like this next. They have similar rounds. In std and +p. Could be interesting.
They have basically the same loads on paper, however their +P version is about the same power as Buffalo Bore's standard pressure version. Underwood's 158 hard cast+P is as powerful as BB's 158+P, but for whatever reason Underwood loads their hollow point version 100 FPE lower than BB
2 questions:
1. What speed loader are you using?
2. The damage seems small in the gel compared to jacketed hp test. What is your take on the terminal effect of these lead hp?
Thanks for the great work!
Very good video. I just canât understand why the big ammunition manufacturers canât load a standard pressure 38 that has the same power as the buffalo bore one.
I personally think it's liability and cost. All modern .38 Special revolvers could easily handle Buffalo Bore power, but with all the old handguns out there and with stupid people who would shoot a mainstream .38 Special+P in a 120 year old gun, I think that's a headache the ammo companies do not want. Also along with that, if you just dump a fast burning cheap powder that works great with 9mm, into a .38 Special case, you get basically run of the mill .38 Special ammo. I have done it handloading, you take a 125 gr bullet, use load data powder charge for 124 gr 9mm, and you get .38 Special ammo that shoots at 900 FPS from a 4" barrel, 800 from a 2". To me it adds up they are just using powder that is cheap to save a buck.
Great video!
But im still waiting for 45 colt cowboy action loads ;)
Great video Sam! I was chasing a .357 all summer and had decided that a .38 was going to be more useable in the long run. The Taurus was my price range but I've seen enough other people having problems to make me leery. An RIA M206 presented itself at a really good price and I finally made a purchase. I know it's a budget gun, but I'm shooting it well enough and it's eating every factory load, reload, and even some +P. I think I'll hold off on the Buffalo Bore though and shoot mostly hand loads to stay in practice. Thanks!
I really like my S&W revolvers; they're all .357 but I bought a pair of the RIA in 4" & 2" for $500.00 out the door. I'm happier than a pig in mud with them.
@@fordtruck3963 I have both of those as well and all is good so far!
Hi Gun Sam, how are you?
Would it be possible for you to include the Super 38 ammo test in the revolver 357 ?
Thank you,
Buffalo Bore is great ammunition!
The BB Standard pressure load from a snubbie is going faster than most of The Big Three +P loads do...out of a 4" barrel they have 75-100 fps over their +P... The BB +P is easily the equal of the original .38-44 load by Winchester/Western and Remington/Peters back in the 1930s to 1950s...but a better bullet. Those loads were only rated at 1115 fps from a 5" barrel for the 158 grain loadings.
Worked for Dallas PD back in the 1970s and 80s and personally knew 6 officers who carried that load and shot either things or people...5 of the 6 changed guns and caliber after their "incident". (one of the officers changes after his poor second poor performance incident). The rounds bounced off or stuck in the side of the stand on the corner collection mailboxes, car windshields, car doors, stuck in the neck of one felon and left people standing... The only one who was happy was a sergeant who shot a murder suspect inside a motorhome...dropped the guy right there.
I knew at least 50 other officers who got into shooting with other guns and calibers and not a one of the changed a thing...
When I carry a .38, which isn't very often, I carry the BB +P 158 HP or the Outdoorsman Solid...nothing less.
I was interested because I picked up a bunch of 158 gr SWCHP+P cheap. Better than I expected.
that buffalo bore 38+p is giving you roundabouts the same velocities that the federal American eagle 357 soft points were giving you, witch begs the question is buffalo bore loading their ammo way too hot or are the ammo companies pud loading their revolver ammo ???
.357 Magnum loaded right give 800 ft lbs in my 686, so ammo companies are down loading. That being said, the .38+P is lead, so you can get 100 FPS+ vs a jacketed bullet with the same powder charge. I don't believe these rounds are over pressure at all
@@GunSam Not overloaded at all. They are loaded right up to SAAMI upper specs for standard and +P loads.
Iâve got the plus P in my little Taurus. I figure if I ever have to use the thing the first shot will get it done as itâs going to be close quarters plus Iâm a pretty big guy
I think you used to use a S&W Scandium Model 342 for testing. It would be interesting to see if the standard pressure BB 158 gr swchp jumps the crimp. That's the risk with lead bullets in lightweight revolvers
I have shot some in my 342PD in the past which is just an aluminum alloy frame. I do recall seeing a little crimp jump, but it wasn't significant enough to pull the 5th round more than 1/100" or so
@@GunSam My 340PD's recoil is so stiff that the same load moved the bullets significantly . I like the BB 38 standard pressure 158gr swchp and I like the 150g wadcutter even more. Aside from some POI issues with it, the penetration in excellent and it cuts very sharp edges.
Sam, Using the 27 fps variance between the âidenticalâ factory +P rounds that you shot from the 4â barrel as an example, would you say hand loaded rounds closer to each other, fps wise? Is 27 fps significant for penetration, accuracy or anything else in your experience? Thank you
There's a whole lot of little things into that question that are hard to answer, but just general hand loads, no they aren't a tighter spread of velocity VS factory, but that being said, certain powder with certain bullets can get really tight spreads. Like I was max charging some .38+P's before with Titegroup powder, got about a 5 FPS variance. But that's because it was the max charge and everything just worked out. If I hand loaded some run of the mill bullets with a mid range generic powder, the velocity spread won't be any better than factory.
I just got a few hundred rounds of Remington HTP 125 grain semi jacketed hollow points. Your video on them was very impressive but so are these. Do you think the Buffalo Bore is a better self defense load?
Awesome vid. I just ordered some BB+P 158's for my 342.
How was the .38 special plus p recoil compared to a standard.158 gr .357 mag?
"FBI Load" - Yeah, that is going over well today.
It's not an editorial comment on today's federal authorities. I agree with you there, but we are talking about a historically proven cartridge for self-defense. We can't call it the Chicago load either.
@@frankhinkle5772 Or Metro-Dade load, St. Louis load, or San Antonio load.
Maybe do the Underwood version next time. The FBI load still seems like it's relevant as an option against modern cartridges and Underwood updated with the lipstick coating to prevent lead residue in the barrel.
Remember kids, whatever you choose to carry in the ol' hand canon there is no replacement for shot placement - standard.38 is plenty enough - my opinion.
I every day carry buffalo bore .357 mag 125 gr 1700 fps in a smith model 640 at work and in a 686+ when not at work. For when i just have to run out real quick and just throw on sweat pants or something my go to is the buffalo bore 38 spl +p lswchp in my 360j. Buffalo makes the best ammo with the most BANG for your buck, literally
That's a heck of a way to go with the .357 Mag ammo. I shot one of those once through the chronograph with my 2" Taurus 605 and the velocity was like 1,450 FPS. Had a lot of recoil.
My experience with the standard pressure is that the recoil is too stout in lightweight snubs like Chief Special or Detective Special. It works great in a heavier gun like the 10-5 snub. The + P is pushing magnum territory, so I'd rather just use a magnum...
I carry the standard pressure load in alloy frame Colt D frames, and the plus p in aS&W 60-7, and a mid 70s vintage Detective Special . No big deal in either. As to going to a 357 load in a k frame, the only heavy weight load that exits faster out of a short barrel 357 is the old Winchester 145 Silver tip.,The Buffalo plus p 158 lhpis slightly slower , but 13 grains heavier without the blast of a 357.
Nice look like good rounds.....better than underwood 158 lead or their 125 plus p gold dot though? Soon time for a new best .38 loads both standard and plus p Sam after all ur new protocol findings
I am looking at sorting out those Freedom Munitions, Atlanta Arms and Fiocchi .357 Mags because they been sitting awhile. Some guy on Patreon wants to see some old handloads I have run in some gel, so I will probably get to throwing those rounds into some gel soon. Is 2" or 4" the preferred barrel length?
@@GunSam When you are feeling up to it...4" preferred I can gage from that what a 3" would do a bit better..I think about 7% velocity loss is all if that because Ruger barrels shoot faster than S&W barrels almost always. The AA was 125, the Fiocchi and Freedom were 158 I believe. I also want to know how they recoil, so I can choose which to run thinking about doing a .357 vs .45 vid with drills...see if there is a noticeable time and hit location difference
@@DanTheWolfman Got that video done. czcams.com/video/zp30c66BsD8/video.html
What if you need to get through car doors or windshield glass? I do not know, but your input is better then my guess. Anyway, something incidental to your top notch demo. đ
It's not going to go through hard barriers very well.
I would argue out of a 4â barrel, the +P May supply more distance for accurate shots.
Disclaimer, I carry the +P version in my S&W model 67.
I find it to be extremely satisfying to shoot. I wish I could afford more, but these rounds are quite expensive!
If recoil is a problem, I suggest a 0.380.
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That plus p smacked the heck out of that block I donât think anyone would do too well against those
How about testing, 1) 38 UW Extreme Defender, 2) 45 acp 165 gr vs a 9mm 147 gr. The 9mm 115 gr vs a 45 Acapulco 230 gr just doesnât seem that fair; 3) a 38 Special snub nose vs a 22 mag from a North American Arms pistol. I need to check the vid list about the 38; you may have done that one and I forgot. Watch all your vids. Good job and thanks for your efforts. Lots of unseen work there most people donât think about.