My great grandfather was a police officer for over 30yr and carried a S&W 38 revolver the entire time. Ppl say a revolver isn't good enough for self defense now, makes me wonder how did my grandpa and everyone else male it with one. Because 38 still pokes holes in ppl Great video as usal 👍👍
Yes, agreed. Most of the people who ridicule these things are armchair experts who either never actually shot anything, or don't actually carry a ccw themselves.
I believe the skirt on the wad cutter is supposed to expand under pressure, forming a better seal with the barrel. A lot of lead bullets are 0.358" in diameter instead of 0.357" diameter to form a better seal. The lead, being softer, can get squeezed down by the barrel without creating dangerous pressure levels. I suspect this is why your inverted wad cutters came out slower with the same charge. It would also explain the extra inconsistency in the velocity and perhaps also the accuracy.
Fun test! I think the backwards wadcutters had lower velocity because they weren't seated as deep in the case which lowered the pressure. I experimented with backwards wadcutters in the 70's because hollow points sucked back then. Marginal results like you got. The forward facing wadcutters performed remarkably well. Cookie cutters that fly like a brick. Thanks for the unique test.
I have done this identical test with different powders and they typically move faster because inverted, the case capacity is reduced for higher pressure even when seated out a tad.
Fly like a brick 🧱 which they are ! I’ve moved my target 5 yards out at a time from 20 yds starting , @40 yds I only had 2 holes in the target ! The local gunsmith suggested that I increase the velocity and try the 40 yard test , it was actually worse for a group! But it was fun ! Off and on I carry full wadcutters for my EDC!
Georgia Arms loads a WC specifically for snubbies that’s right in that sweet zone of 750FPS. I am convinced a properly loaded WC will certainly get the job done if need be
My grandfather was a Charleston SC officer from 62-75, that's what they started to use starting in the mid 60s when officers started to encounter threats who were on hard-core drugs. They had trouble stopping them with regular .38, but the wadcutters had and extra punch. The assumption was the blunt end smashed more than just cut.
Man, this takes me back to the late 1980s and my experimenting with .38 spl and .357 magnum loads. Of course, we didn't have gel, we had pine board, clay, and just pure subjection, LOL. Great video as always.
It is a bad idea to run swaged HBWCs (seated normally) hard. They can- and will- suffer from separation. The skirt detaches from the solid front portion, and may remain in the bore, causing an obstruction. I used to shoot PPC at the old Tampa Police Pistol & Rifle Club, and that was the bullet of choice. We had a new shooter join the league, and he thought it would be a good idea to spice up his handloads so he didn't have to hold so high at 50 yards. He had a bunch of extra holes in his target, and after two stages, he had to stop shooting because he stacked a couple bullets in the bore. Pleasu use DEWC if you want to load them hot.
I keep all that in mind, that's why I do not go all that hot. I have caught a lot of them in gel through the years and I have never seen any evidence of any of that. I would imagine maybe up there at 1,000 FPS could be getting close, so I barely, just barely go over the load data by like 2/10th of max charges.
Ed Sanow loaded the backwards wadcutters seated a bit out of case and crimped slightly into the straight bullet. I tried that out of my 6” revolver and had no tumbling problems, at least out to 15 yards. This would have been some time in the mid 1980’s.
It's how I loaded mine. Crimped into the knurling on the Hornady bullet a tad. I think my revolver is to blame. I have had a lot of other ammo that is over 130 gr, tumble in this Taurus.
I’ve always liked to shoot revolvers at long distances on occasion too. My 1976 Four inch Police Service Six .357 will keep em on a paper plate at 100 yards with a handload of 6.2 grains of unique pushing a Lyman cast 168 grain SWC. .38 SPL wad cutters work well for lots of critters of all types. Great video.
There used to be an ammo company called Reeds ammo and Research, they had a Wadcutter HP called The Manstopper. Don't know if they're still in business though
Great test... been messing with wadcutters for decades on and off... for me? the gamechanger is the HT epoxy coat on cast 148 grain bullets or... boil off the coat on the soft lead ones and then HT coat em.... that last is ... well... Lets just say that smoke at 'high' velocities of say 1000 fps from a 4" is nothing as is leading.... you can clean the gun with a wool mop But the most impressive to me was that they HT coat held the bullet in one piece with a LOT of expansion when loaded upside down. This is shooting through stacks of catalogues. Loaded normally they did not expand or penetrate better or worse than cast.
Good test. Thank you for doing this. To me 38 special and +p do fine like the 38spl +p 120 grn federal punch. I do favor the 357mag more when I’m in a bad part of town. My G2C is my EDC with Hornday critical defense 115g. Good shooting no matter what some of the issues were with the rounds.
Jon, yours is a unique and beautiful comment, and even though it has only received one like, it is 100% worthy of its top spot on the comment page. I love you.
I agree with Range Time. It’s been at least 30-40 years since I last played with reversed HBWC. I didn’t have gel. Duct seal (oil based clay) is too good at promoting expansion (firewood just the opposite). Wet pack - soak those big Computer Shopper catalogs and your old Shotgun News for a day or two in a plastic bag inside a thin wood box - shooting always gave inconsistent results, maybe great expansion, maybe the nose just folded shut without expansion. I even put .357 gas checks on what had been the front of the bullets, and tried some at magnum velocities. I think the real key was probably stability, and they often were not stable. But this is a fascinating experiment.👍
3" to 4" barrel with backwards wadcutters might be better. Just keep in mind that when you load hollow base wadcutters with the HB inside the casing sharing the same space as the gun powder that extra space will lower the chamber pressure because the case capacity is increased. The opposite happens when you load them with the HB facing forward. The case capacity is reduced as opposed to increased. I tend to use slightly slower burning powders when the case capacity is reduced.
@@Prepare2Survive that didn’t happen in this example. He obtained approximately the same velocity seated hollow forward and hollow backward. Your logic normally would be correct, but it didn’t happen here. The reason he didn’t get increased velocity with smaller case capacity has to do with the reason for the hollow base. Wadcutter are typically loaded light (700-750fps). The hollow base is critical with these low velocities. The hollow base causes high pressure gasses to expand the bullet in throat, forcing cone and barrel. This is needed to keep these gasses behind the bullet. Your comments about hotter loading might help, I agree, but I’ve never been able to shoot reverse loaded hollow base at any kind of decent velocities without the bullet tumbling, almost immediately.
@@mesauer His powder was too fast burning to notice any difference in velocity. Use a slower burning powder like Longshot or Power Pistol and you'll see the difference.
Interesting test. I hadn’t heard about loading backwards wadcutters until pretty recently. I think you’re right about it being inconsistent. Sometimes it seems like it’s hollowpoint lite and sometimes they don’t seem ballistically stable and just go sideways. I guess at close range they’d still be plenty effective but I don’t think I’d trust it at longer range. It did surprise me how the forward wadcutter was pretty close to the 9mm despite being way slower. If I was in a place where hollowpoints were illegal I’d lean towards those.
If you ever get the chance try those bullets loaded over some alliant green dot. Incredible consistency with very low standard deviation. 825 fps average from your revolver would be no problem. I love green dot in my 856UL with 158 grain swc hardcast bullets. Awesome video sir!!
I will try to keep in mind. I haven't bought powder in years lol. I got like W231, Titegroup, Universal, Trail Boss, Power Pistol, 296 and Ramshot enforcer. I just look at them all, cans nearly empty "looks like I got enough Universal to load 50 rounds" lol
@@GunSam When loading for 38 special I typically use green dot, unique, or longshot. I’ve used universal in the past with 125 grain rnfp bullets and got great results. I’ve also messed around with clays powder and 125s for lever gun fun(quiet and accurate as can be). It was cool to see you test some lead handloads in the gel!
The only reason to flush seat wadcutters is an order to feed in an auto... There's literally a gajillion different wad-cutters out there, I have no doubt that police armories weren't making use of these but at a much greater velocity and a greater weight probably like 158gr to match their service round
First, thanks, instant like. The internet needs more data on full wadcutters. Especially when driven harder than light target velocities. The backwards hollow base are tumbling well before 50 yards. Its probably not from too much charge. Its probably unstable weight and aerodynamics, like a badminton shuttle thrown backwards. Maybe not obturating. Not especially desirable. But tumbling can be an advantage for small game hunting if it happens after the useful hunting range. A standard target WC is very accurate to 50 yards. More than enough range for small game handgun hunting. Instead of a miss carrying energy an extended range, a wad cutter will tumble @~70 to 100 yards. Lose energy very rapidly. And fall with low energy and less range. I would love to see the fiber board + gel test of a solid full wad cutter at +p velocities ~1050fps. Not hollow base, as there is real risk of blowing the skirt off, and causing a barrel obstruction. Also preferably a full caliber shoulder, not a bevel base double end. I've gotten good quality with one like that from bear creek. I could contribute unloaded lead if you are interested.
The late Jim Cirillo was a fan of Wadcutters ( forewards) loaded to 900 fps . They would penetrate skulls at an angle , when RNL would have tendency to deflect .
Great video. The backwards ones didn't get as much velocity bc the hollow base is designed to slightly expand and fully engage the rifling. I would love to see a few new targets on the range. Maybe a spinner?
I have done this identical test with other powders and the backwards one is always faster. What about those? Your explanation does not fit those at all.
@@GunSam could be some brands use a harder or softer lead. Also some bullets are .357 or .358. it was just a thought i had to explain the lower velocity. Maybe a little bit of gas was slipping past the bullet
Thanks. The .38 Special is one of those rounds, where in order to make something else look better they have to look down on it. The 9mm is number one simply due to it's popularity, and .38 Special is almost it's ballistic twin when it's +P, but in order to sell more 9mm you have people talking capacity capacity capacity, and when you say that maybe 5 rounds is enough they revert to "well .38 Special is the same energy as .22 Magnum" talking in regards to 200 FPE LRN ammo from a 2" barrel while conveniently not mentioning all the Underwood 350 ft lb ammo from a snub that has less recoil than a .357 Mag, and more effective "stopping power" and energy than a micro compact 9mm. The negative and lowest potential of the .38 Special is what is remembered by most people for some reason, and eventually it gets told as truth that it's less effective and less powerful than .380 ACP and .22 Magnum.
In deep history , for the first 70 some years , the ubiquitous .38 Spl Service Load was 158gr RNL . And the only other load seen ( except for hardcore gun cranks and handloaders ) was 148gr full Wadcutters . Fast foreward to the late Revolver Era , and there were a plethora of reasonably effective HP loads of several types . Also , .38Spl owned the niche of " controllable by people with moderate initial training , and subsequent follow up training/ practicing once or twice a year " . In this regard , 4 inch .38 is on par with 9mm std pressure . With 9mm fans touting the higher capacity .
I agree with your comment at the end…this was an interesting test! Do you have access to any flat base or double ended.38 wadcutter bullets for loading? A couple of things about them: 1) they are shorter than hollow base wadcutters of the same weight so they tend to be more stable for any given twist rate (though the correct facing wadcutters you loaded appeared well stabilized) and 2) you can increase the powder charge on them without fear of leaving the “skirt” of the hollow base stuck in the revolver. If you are looking for a subject for a video in the future maybe you can load some flat base wadcutters to about 850 to 900 fps and see how they perform.
I've shot inverted HBWC as experiments, but 'think' the difference in center-of-gravity tends to cause tumbling. Normal seating for my NRA offhand target competition gives me the best accuracy and nice easy to score round holes.
Interesting results Sam. I actually expected a suprise from the inverted WC but alas, not so. I have a 3” 38 and am curious about your choice of a woods load. No griz here! Just pigs and a few black bears. I want to carry the revolver as I’m more proficient with it. Nice job as usual. Thanks again.
If it were me, I would use something that is 158 gr to insure penetration, maybe like Underwood SWC, but really pigs and black bears aren't significantly different than humans in what will stop them so I would carry something that is in general, warm and heavy.
The ORIGINAL hydra shock was originally developed by Brazynski (can't remember exact spelling of his name) because he couldn't get backwards wadcutters to track straight. The lead post was to put enough weight towards the front to track straight and he also expected the post to direct the hydraulic force outwards to promote expansion. It did.
Great video. Really appreciate all you do for information and ballistics on revolvers. I've been considering a snub in a pocket holster for summer carry. And I've been taking more interests in wadcutter loads out of a short Barrel. Looking at the underwood wadcutter loads. Do you recommend any others?
Thanks. Wadcutters from Underwood or Buffalo Bore are often hard cast and really hot, they tend to penetrate through 2 gel blocks. For wadcutters, I personally would stick with Federal, Winchester and Remington if you can get them as they consistently hit around 700 FPS from a 2" barrel, stuff like Fiocchi and Magtech are too low, around 500-600 FPS. Personally if it were me, I would carry the Hornady Critical Defense 110+P as it's the best .38 Special load I have tested. Wadcutters are a good second choice if recoil is a concern.
I just don't feel comfortable with any other wadcutter load than Underwood. The loads that you recommend from Federal, Winchester, and Remington are all but impossible to find. Do you feel the Underwoods are too much of an over penetration risk to use them?
Always learn something from your tests. Looks like a .38 wadcutter in a 2 inch barrel maybe 700 fps (650?) would make a great low recoil defense round. Might have switch my loads from swc to wc. By way your shooting range looks like a peaceful out of the way place.
Nice testing Sam of these rounds. The semi wadcutters and LRN, and modern HPs of various types seem to fit the personal difference bill. While experimenting with backwards rounds seem to keyhole which may cause damage in their own right, but not necessarily ideal like a .223/5.56 or 5.44x39 (AK 74 rounds). ♠️🎩🎯🎱🇺🇲🏁🇺🇦🔱🌻💮🌸🌼🏴☠️🏹
I carry DEWC wadcutters in my 38 Special and 357 Magnum revolvers with 2" or 3" barrels. My favorite loads do much better than the one's you chose for this test. First off these are Hodgdon loads with max charges, use caution and work up safe loads for your handguns. In 38 Special I load 5.0gr of Silhouette powder with a DEWC crimped in the crimp groove just slightly proud of the case mouth, impressive load just slightly +P. In 357 with 357 cases I load 3.5gr. of 700x powder crimping the wad cutter in the crimp groove. I get velocity's in the mid 8's with those fast powders and they are very controllable. I powder coat all my cast bullets so smoke is a non issue. I also have a SP101 in 9mm with a 2" barrel and the 9mm is neck and neck with the 38/357 loads using a pure lead 150gr Lee 358-150-1r resized to .356 and powder coated with 5.5gr of the Silhouette powder. Again a formidable load from the 2" barrel and in my semi's feeds excellent. I have tried the 110gr XTP loads from Hornady, recoil was OK blast and recoil was up significantly. Expansion wasn't really there except for the 357 but controllability was poor for me even in my 3" SP101. I might try Federal Punch next. IMHO I'm not seeing any real advantage with the commercial loads in handguns with the short barrels, just not enough velocity.
Sam, i just shot some Geco 148gr lead wadcutters out of my snubby and had multiple keyholes in a silhouette target. Just an observation. I carry Gold Dot 130gr +P Short Barrel in it but like to shoot the wadcutters at the range sometimes.
Hyper expansion, fragmentation, and very shallow penetration. Might be OK as a small varmint round. The hollow base wad cutters are usually soft swaged lead. Likely problems driving them to magnum velocities in all revolvers.
I like the hollow SWC from Hornady. I don’t know if they will expand. The lead is pretty soft. A WC was the Bullseye Shooters preferred boolit for the 25 yard range. The SWC for the 50 yard range. Many swear by the Plated WC & SWC as far as accuracy. Others say pure lead is the best because it seals the barrel by obturating. I have honestly had luck with all types.
Yeah I have never really seen any bullet style that really is more accurate than another. Most jacketed ammo also squeezes through the bore so they all get tight seals. Some of the most accurate ammo I have ever shot was some of my first ever hand loads in 2015. A 125 gr XTP 5.0 gr Titegroup. Just amazing accuracy. I find lead ammo harder to get more accurate as no matter what you do when you try to get a consistent burn at high pressure which is needed for consistency, now you deal with leading and smoke which can throw the shooter off. Non magnum ammo, loaded to max charges under XTP's specifically (not Speer TMJ's or others) seem to be the most accurate ammo I ever shoot or hand load.
A bit of a FYI regarding Universal powder Load a standard pressure charge under 158 SWC or RN in 38 Deliberately check for position sensitivity Five shots powder near bullet Five shots powder near primer Ensure powder is in correct nearest and furthest distance from primer in testing….as in level carefully to shoot after positioning powder Prepare to be quite dismayed Universal is a fine powder in such as 9mm and 40 Absolutely awful powder in large airspace moderate pressure cartridges like 38 Special, 45 Colt and the like as it’s position sensitivity is extreme with these type of loadings A deeply seated wadcutter helps reduce position sensitivity via reducing airspace but so many powders do better under such conditions as loading a standard 158 RN or SWC that Universal is the powder of NOT choice in 38.
I have a # of that, but I usually use hp-38 and whatever that equivalent powder is. Alliant BE-86 with 5.3 grains was like shooting a laser from my 442. 125gr semis, I think.
Yes I also expected higher velocity with the backward wc because of the smaller "case capacity" without the hollow base. Maybe you crimped them not as throng?
I used the same light crimp setting, rolling over the nose of the traditional seated one, and that same crimp just rolled into the knurling that the Hornady bullet has. That does indeed make the crimps different, but that being said I have done these same type of loads with Titegroup powder and the backwards one even seated out more, still went faster.
The hollow based wad cutter acts like a Minié bullet. The thin skirt at the base better seals the bullet in the bore. Could this be the reason for the velocity difference?
i'm not sure what kind of performance you would be expecting. The velocity would potentially be less in a rifle barrel VS a handgun with ammo like these.
@@beautifulzion5791 That's a good point, I didn't consider that. I'd still try it if I could, though. I think if it worked, it would be nice to see an increase in capacity of the tube magazine
British Military and Canadian used .38-200 ammo called manstoppers. I have some do not know how the velocity is but was intended to be equal to .455 Eley. That is basically 38SW + P. Curious at to how effective it would be...
I have loaded the American version "Super Police" loads. The 200 gr .35 Remington bullets. They do very well and are super quiet. All you really got to do when making them, is it's just like 158 gr LRN load data, but instead of going by overall length, they are seated to the maximum they can be seated, which creates roughly the same internal pressure and space as 158 gr LRN but they move at 600-700 FPS. czcams.com/video/-WroVmr_16s/video.html
Can't speak to those specifically . At the tail end of the Revolver Era , the major commercial reloading outfits sold at lot of reman ammo with 100 gr WC , marketed as practice ammo . I never chronograph ed any , but felt recoil was noticeably less than 148gr WC . With such short projectiles and lousy b/c , they would be unstable in flight at longer ranges . But 25 yds and under , they were on par with low bidder 148 WC commercial reloads .
I believe the 38 Wdcutter defence load with a swaged HBWC is a waste of time. To make acceptable velocities it must be driven near max but then there is the possibility of blowing the skirts off, the deep hollow base walls, off. I had a "house gun" load usinf a DEWC loaded high with W231. No worries with a soft swaged deep hollow base coming apart in the barrel and no leading. That would be a good test. Mid to upper charges of Universal with a medium hard, BHN 14-15, DEWC and shoot that into gel...
@@GunSamederal sent me an email but was sold out soon thereafter. I saw some hammerdown 327 on gunbroker for about 1.30 a round. That stuff is supposedly good in a 2 inch taurus
Because of the 90⁰ shoulder on a wadcutters, they cut flesh, while a pointy jacket will sort of just squeeze through. That 20" depth wadcutter will wreck any two legged predator.
No one knows. I have been wanting to know that for years, even going as far as pausing the movie where the detective was holding a recovered bullet from a mugger on gauze. From that, I would speculate some form or partially jacketed bullet, potentially SJHP like the Magtech 98 gr SJHP that does exist.
Great test with wadcutters bullets ! I’ve returned to the full wadcutters 2 years ago but went with 155 grain this time ! I also went with full wadcutters in my .44 all the years I’ve shot the .44 I’ve never fired wadcutters in that caliber, range day is just a few days away now ! Why not find out !
If I recall, the Winchester SuperX did the best as it had the most power. Over on Lucky Gunner website under labs/.38 Special and .357 Magnum Self-Defense Ammo Ballistics Test, they show a few wadcutters tested in gel. You can look at that and you will see some differences. They used two barrel lengths.
I can’t remember if you have tried this or not, but have you ever tried backwards 357 magnum wad cutters? Also have you ever accidentally shot your chronograph? Ha ha, I accidentally shot my chronograph last week with a hornady leverevolution 44 mag! 😮 but I ordered a new one.
I did a demonstration for my Patreon people, where I stabbed a basketball pump in a gel block, one pump caused the same damage in it as the Xtreme Defender. Now, maybe this is coincidental, maybe it is all air pressure and air pressure can still cause damage, I have no idea. I do know that Xtreme Defenders do have a very consistent penetration depth which most people consider number one in terminal ballistics.
@@GunSam Interesting. However, if you do the same thing to a ballon, what happens to it? It expands. With my knox gel, I get wound cavities from good expanded 9mm hollow points like gold dot or hst that are 2" in diameter. The bullet doesn't expand to 2", more like 1/4 of that as you know. Therefore, the sharp pedals of the expanded bullet aren't cutting the gel 2" wide, so what is? Fluid disruption, same thing the Extreme Defenders do. It's harder to see this in the clear gel because the wound channels on most pistol rounds are so tiny compared to the knox gel. I've probably said this before here and certainly on my own channel, but I think real world results fall somewhere between what the clear and knox gel displays. I state this based on examining wounds on animals I hunted with the same ammo that I have put into both types of blocks.
Gun Sam. I have a question. I have an opertunity to buy a charter arms 38 spl snub nose. It's almost new. Are they OK carry guns. Im getting a very good deal from New. I see them for sale at local gun store. .😊😊
I honestly don't have experience with Charter Arms revolvers despite me planning on getting one or two for years. I just haven't got one yet. One of my CZcams friends is a huge Charter Arms fan with lots of them. I would suggest you ask him. Here's his CZcams channel: www.youtube.com/@crankygunreviews
My guess is that they could potentially slow down in 6" of barrel VS 3" to 4" of barrel because of how low powder charges are in wadcutters and longer barrels start to add drag. Wouldn't be substantial differences, but more or less you would probably get the same velocity and performance I get in my 2" barrel.
Soft shooting, very consistent and accurate to at least 50 yards. Near perfect penetration with better wounding than lead round nose, fmj, or substandard hollow points that don't expand. Less wounding than the best +p hollow points.
I'm always wondering about penatration, Recent CPR training was half the depth of the torso. so I measure my self as 14 inches in my chair so i need to copress 7 incheches or so to be efecctive. I'm thimking a 10 inch penatration kills me if hit in the heart . Fyi 6 foot man 230 pounds
I have never really known how to explain it as descriptions of different methods don't always compute in my brain. Basically, once I get a front sight picture on shot one, I pop off a round...then if it hits, my muscle memory has already taken over and the rest just seem to land without really looking at anything but blurry combinations of the pistol slide and target.
@@GunSam I would say that is a pretty good explanation. I have struggled to explain it myself but finally came to the conclusion that I am really just ignoring the rear sight and almost entirely ignoring the front.. This is close range... We like to mess around with hip shooting sodas at say 10' or so... For anything precise tho at any range I focus on sight picture.
I may have seen them with Buffalo Bore loads if I recall. I have never had hand loading bullets with them on them, nor have I tried installing my own gas checks.
@@GunSam Yeah I was curious if wadcutters had them. I've seen plenty of semi-wadcutters with gas checks. Not sure the recommended velocity/pressure threshold before it is recommended to use them.
I wish you'd work on that wadcutter load. Please don't invert the bullet and strive for 800fps. I bet you get an accurate deeply penetrating load that disrupts tissue well.
If you bump up that powder charge or swap to a powder with a little more muscle I think you would be good to go. Of course that is depending on the hardness of those WC's. I load some of the rimrock wc's at 38 +p velocities and they perform quite well with very mild recoil.
My experiments with HBWC loaded backwards, in the mid '80s was a big fail. Too inconsistent, HB clogs, HB collapse, poor accuracy. Even at 10', too inconsistent...
There have been experiments proving that shooting 38 Special in a 357 Magnum chamber may destabilize the bullet to the point (in case of certain loads) of "key-holing" the target. Most probably there is also a minute pressure loss as the gas slightly disperses in the transitory chamber gap as opposed to a proper 38 Special chamber, wherein it can only go forward until cylinder gap.
Would you say that a mid sized 38 like the s&w model 10 is more accurate than a mid sized 9mm like the g17 despite the longer double action trigger pull?
Personally, I would say yes a .38 Special model 10 is more accurate than maybe a G17. The trigger pull is one of those things....a person who knows how to correctly shoot a double action trigger is using a totally different part of the finger and muscle than a typical semi auto trigger position, so in many regards - for the muscle pulling the double action trigger and having the finger much deeper on the trigger, the actual finger pull length is not more than let's say, a Glock typical trigger press.
Reversed hollow base wad cutters won't be accurate, they are unstable. Try softer cast double ended wad cutters. Yes I knew someone who loaded reversed hollow base wc and the thief with the knife who tried to get clever when her car broke down regretted it for the rest of his life... However there were burns on his tee shirt.
Why is it that almost every time someone compares .38/.38+ with the 9mm, they use use a heavier bullet for the .38? I’ve seen several were a 158gr .38 is compared with 115gr or 124gr 9mm. In this case, he is comparing 148gr .38 to 124gr 9mm. How is that a fair comparison.
Who ever said this is supposed to be "fair"? But to answer a specific question on wadcutters, wadcutters for .38 Special are 99% of the time 148 gr. Sure, you could run a 147 gr 9mm.....but everyone knows 147 gr 9mm is the absolutely worst performing 9mm weight. The 124 gr is the MOST common 9mm weight. A 148 gr .38 wadcutter is the MOST common wadcutter weight. If one was to ask about fairness, I would say what I did is as "fair" as one could get by using the most common weights.
@@GunSam Good point on the wadcutter. I didn't know that as I don't shoot wadcutter bullets. But, besides a wadcutter, why is it that a lot of people do a comparison between the 9mm and .38 and it seems that they always pick the 158gr .38.? Myself, I use 125gr .38+P.. Does the vast majority use .38/.38+P 158gr bullets? Is the 158gr better, even though it would be slower? Not a ballistics guy like you, so that is why I ask.
@@ndguam I can't speak for other people or why they use 158 gr, unless they are just being cheap and using 158 gr lead round nose. I would say 95% of my tests with .38 Special are 125 and 110 gr both in +P. I generally compare .38+P 125 gr to 9mm 124 gr, and 110 gr .38+P to 115 gr 9mm.
The police in San Antonio used to carry .38 revolvers with 158 grain lead semi wadcutters with great success.
@Echosdad2 My husband still carries these in his 442.
We trained with them
I believe they also carried the .41 magnum for a while. I’m sure a soft swaged 210 grain SWC at around 950 fps was pretty effective.
Define 'with great success'. Be as detailed and specific as possible.
@@timrobinson6573 Or you could do some research for yourself and offer a rebuttal if warranted.
I like the wadcutters without a doubt. Not the inverted ones but the standard ones for penetration.
I personally know a retired police officer from Lousiana that carries .38 special wadcutters as his everyday personal defense carry ammo.
Great video Sam
The 148 grain wad cutter Is my favorite summertime Carry , I know exactly what it is going to do at 700 fps
Thanks
My great grandfather was a police officer for over 30yr and carried a S&W 38 revolver the entire time. Ppl say a revolver isn't good enough for self defense now, makes me wonder how did my grandpa and everyone else male it with one. Because 38 still pokes holes in ppl Great video as usal 👍👍
Yes, agreed. Most of the people who ridicule these things are armchair experts who either never actually shot anything, or don't actually carry a ccw themselves.
@@marc4199 38 been filling graves for many years🔫
I believe the skirt on the wad cutter is supposed to expand under pressure, forming a better seal with the barrel. A lot of lead bullets are 0.358" in diameter instead of 0.357" diameter to form a better seal. The lead, being softer, can get squeezed down by the barrel without creating dangerous pressure levels. I suspect this is why your inverted wad cutters came out slower with the same charge. It would also explain the extra inconsistency in the velocity and perhaps also the accuracy.
Fun test! I think the backwards wadcutters had lower velocity because they weren't seated as deep in the case which lowered the pressure. I experimented with backwards wadcutters in the 70's because hollow points sucked back then. Marginal results like you got. The forward facing wadcutters performed remarkably well. Cookie cutters that fly like a brick. Thanks for the unique test.
I have done this identical test with different powders and they typically move faster because inverted, the case capacity is reduced for higher pressure even when seated out a tad.
Fly like a brick 🧱 which they are !
I’ve moved my target 5 yards out at a time from 20 yds starting , @40 yds I only had 2 holes in the target !
The local gunsmith suggested that I increase the velocity and try the 40 yard test , it was actually worse for a group! But it was fun !
Off and on I carry full wadcutters for my EDC!
Georgia Arms loads a WC specifically for snubbies that’s right in that sweet zone of 750FPS. I am convinced a properly loaded WC will certainly get the job done if need be
My grandfather was a Charleston SC officer from 62-75, that's what they started to use starting in the mid 60s when officers started to encounter threats who were on hard-core drugs. They had trouble stopping them with regular .38, but the wadcutters had and extra punch. The assumption was the blunt end smashed more than just cut.
JUST A THOUGHT - 22" MIGHT NOT BE OVER PENETRATION IF THE BAD GUY COMING AT YOU WEIGHS 300lbs & IS IN HEAVY WINTER CLOTHING --
Man, this takes me back to the late 1980s and my experimenting with .38 spl and .357 magnum loads. Of course, we didn't have gel, we had pine board, clay, and just pure subjection, LOL. Great video as always.
Shit, I remember these backwards wadcutter and squib load tests in Guns & Ammo way back in the 70's. They used wet phone books for medium.
It is a bad idea to run swaged HBWCs (seated normally) hard. They can- and will- suffer from separation. The skirt detaches from the solid front portion, and may remain in the bore, causing an obstruction. I used to shoot PPC at the old Tampa Police Pistol & Rifle Club, and that was the bullet of choice. We had a new shooter join the league, and he thought it would be a good idea to spice up his handloads so he didn't have to hold so high at 50 yards. He had a bunch of extra holes in his target, and after two stages, he had to stop shooting because he stacked a couple bullets in the bore. Pleasu use DEWC if you want to load them hot.
I keep all that in mind, that's why I do not go all that hot. I have caught a lot of them in gel through the years and I have never seen any evidence of any of that. I would imagine maybe up there at 1,000 FPS could be getting close, so I barely, just barely go over the load data by like 2/10th of max charges.
@@GunSam also don't forget about the lead hardness factoring in as well.
Sage advice.
Ed Sanow loaded the backwards wadcutters seated a bit out of case and crimped slightly into the straight bullet. I tried that out of my 6” revolver and had no tumbling problems, at least out to 15 yards. This would have been some time in the mid 1980’s.
It's how I loaded mine. Crimped into the knurling on the Hornady bullet a tad. I think my revolver is to blame. I have had a lot of other ammo that is over 130 gr, tumble in this Taurus.
I’ve always liked to shoot revolvers at long distances on occasion too. My 1976 Four inch Police Service Six .357 will keep em on a paper plate at 100 yards with a handload of 6.2 grains of unique pushing a Lyman cast 168 grain SWC.
.38 SPL wad cutters work well for lots of critters of all types. Great video.
There used to be an ammo company called Reeds ammo and Research, they had a Wadcutter HP called The Manstopper. Don't know if they're still in business though
Great test... been messing with wadcutters for decades on and off... for me? the gamechanger is the HT epoxy coat on cast 148 grain bullets or... boil off the coat on the soft lead ones and then HT coat em.... that last is ... well... Lets just say that smoke at 'high' velocities of say 1000 fps from a 4" is nothing as is leading.... you can clean the gun with a wool mop But the most impressive to me was that they HT coat held the bullet in one piece with a LOT of expansion when loaded upside down. This is shooting through stacks of catalogues. Loaded normally they did not expand or penetrate better or worse than cast.
Filmed 4/15/23
I think the hollow base of those wadcutters expends to get a better seal and maybe slightly better velocity.
Bingo.
Marginally. it's more for accuracy.
Thanks for that test and commentary.
Thanks, another good and interesting video. Take care.
Thanks for the short barrel!
Very informative, thank you, I like the regular wad cutters best of those three, My preferences have always bee semi wad cutters.
Good test. Thank you for doing this. To me 38 special and +p do fine like the 38spl +p 120 grn federal punch. I do favor the 357mag more when I’m in a bad part of town. My G2C is my EDC with Hornday critical defense 115g. Good shooting no matter what some of the issues were with the rounds.
Jon, yours is a unique and beautiful comment, and even though it has only received one like, it is 100% worthy of its top spot on the comment page.
I love you.
I agree with Range Time. It’s been at least 30-40 years since I last played with reversed HBWC. I didn’t have gel. Duct seal (oil based clay) is too good at promoting expansion (firewood just the opposite). Wet pack - soak those big Computer Shopper catalogs and your old Shotgun News for a day or two in a plastic bag inside a thin wood box - shooting always gave inconsistent results, maybe great expansion, maybe the nose just folded shut without expansion. I even put .357 gas checks on what had been the front of the bullets, and tried some at magnum velocities. I think the real key was probably stability, and they often were not stable. But this is a fascinating experiment.👍
The GY Bullets, 130g HP I loaded were at 1000 fps out of a 6", 38 special with tight groups with AA#5
Plenty of small pistol primers, but large rifle primers are scarce right now.
3" to 4" barrel with backwards wadcutters might be better. Just keep in mind that when you load hollow base wadcutters with the HB inside the casing sharing the same space as the gun powder that extra space will lower the chamber pressure because the case capacity is increased. The opposite happens when you load them with the HB facing forward. The case capacity is reduced as opposed to increased. I tend to use slightly slower burning powders when the case capacity is reduced.
No.
@@DinoNucci No to what? The part about the case capacity being different?
@@Prepare2Survive that didn’t happen in this example. He obtained approximately the same velocity seated hollow forward and hollow backward.
Your logic normally would be correct, but it didn’t happen here.
The reason he didn’t get increased velocity with smaller case capacity has to do with the reason for the hollow base. Wadcutter are typically loaded light (700-750fps). The hollow base is critical with these low velocities. The hollow base causes high pressure gasses to expand the bullet in throat, forcing cone and barrel. This is needed to keep these gasses behind the bullet.
Your comments about hotter loading might help, I agree, but I’ve never been able to shoot reverse loaded hollow base at any kind of decent velocities without the bullet tumbling, almost immediately.
@@mesauer His powder was too fast burning to notice any difference in velocity. Use a slower burning powder like Longshot or Power Pistol and you'll see the difference.
Slow powder in a snubby?
Some wadcutter load keeps the velocity/ pressure low due to leading and loss of the ring of lead around the hollow in the base.
Good info on a gimmick round. Took my new LCP Max to the range last week & tried a few rounds @ 25 yards & that was a humbling experience.
Interesting test. I hadn’t heard about loading backwards wadcutters until pretty recently. I think you’re right about it being inconsistent. Sometimes it seems like it’s hollowpoint lite and sometimes they don’t seem ballistically stable and just go sideways. I guess at close range they’d still be plenty effective but I don’t think I’d trust it at longer range.
It did surprise me how the forward wadcutter was pretty close to the 9mm despite being way slower. If I was in a place where hollowpoints were illegal I’d lean towards those.
Interesting. Thank you.
If you ever get the chance try those bullets loaded over some alliant green dot. Incredible consistency with very low standard deviation. 825 fps average from your revolver would be no problem. I love green dot in my 856UL with 158 grain swc hardcast bullets. Awesome video sir!!
I will try to keep in mind. I haven't bought powder in years lol. I got like W231, Titegroup, Universal, Trail Boss, Power Pistol, 296 and Ramshot enforcer. I just look at them all, cans nearly empty "looks like I got enough Universal to load 50 rounds" lol
@@GunSam When loading for 38 special I typically use green dot, unique, or longshot. I’ve used universal in the past with 125 grain rnfp bullets and got great results. I’ve also messed around with clays powder and 125s for lever gun fun(quiet and accurate as can be). It was cool to see you test some lead handloads in the gel!
Titegroup powder over 5 other propellants gave me the tightest group in My S&W 586
@@jw-sigp2258 I’ve used Clays for years in my .38 Spls. with both lead bullets and polymer-coated lead bullets. It gives excellent results.
@@theoriginalDAL357 I might try clays with 45 colt later this year.
The only reason to flush seat wadcutters is an order to feed in an auto...
There's literally a gajillion different wad-cutters out there, I have no doubt that police armories weren't making use of these but at a much greater velocity and a greater weight probably like 158gr to match their service round
First, thanks, instant like. The internet needs more data on full wadcutters. Especially when driven harder than light target velocities. The backwards hollow base are tumbling well before 50 yards. Its probably not from too much charge. Its probably unstable weight and aerodynamics, like a badminton shuttle thrown backwards. Maybe not obturating. Not especially desirable. But tumbling can be an advantage for small game hunting if it happens after the useful hunting range. A standard target WC is very accurate to 50 yards. More than enough range for small game handgun hunting. Instead of a miss carrying energy an extended range, a wad cutter will tumble @~70 to 100 yards. Lose energy very rapidly. And fall with low energy and less range. I would love to see the fiber board + gel test of a solid full wad cutter at +p velocities ~1050fps. Not hollow base, as there is real risk of blowing the skirt off, and causing a barrel obstruction. Also preferably a full caliber shoulder, not a bevel base double end. I've gotten good quality with one like that from bear creek. I could contribute unloaded lead if you are interested.
The late Jim Cirillo was a fan of Wadcutters ( forewards) loaded to 900 fps . They would penetrate skulls at an angle , when RNL would have tendency to deflect .
Full wadcutters are cheap, accurate, easy to shoot, and highly effective. More effective than basically all 9mm without super advanced bullet designs.
Great video. The backwards ones didn't get as much velocity bc the hollow base is designed to slightly expand and fully engage the rifling. I would love to see a few new targets on the range. Maybe a spinner?
I have done this identical test with other powders and the backwards one is always faster. What about those? Your explanation does not fit those at all.
@@GunSam could be some brands use a harder or softer lead. Also some bullets are .357 or .358. it was just a thought i had to explain the lower velocity. Maybe a little bit of gas was slipping past the bullet
@@GunSam bullet hardness is the answer.
Save those magnum primers for their intended purpose! Igniting 16.7gr of h110 under a 158gr hard cast! Guaranteed epic fireballs from a short barrel
Becoming a favorite channel of mine! I'd love to know why the .38 has become so maligned and regarded as "ineffective".
There is a general push for 9mm. If all the civilians buy 9mm, it makes 9mm the cheapest, and governments benefit from the low prices.
Thanks. The .38 Special is one of those rounds, where in order to make something else look better they have to look down on it. The 9mm is number one simply due to it's popularity, and .38 Special is almost it's ballistic twin when it's +P, but in order to sell more 9mm you have people talking capacity capacity capacity, and when you say that maybe 5 rounds is enough they revert to "well .38 Special is the same energy as .22 Magnum" talking in regards to 200 FPE LRN ammo from a 2" barrel while conveniently not mentioning all the Underwood 350 ft lb ammo from a snub that has less recoil than a .357 Mag, and more effective "stopping power" and energy than a micro compact 9mm.
The negative and lowest potential of the .38 Special is what is remembered by most people for some reason, and eventually it gets told as truth that it's less effective and less powerful than .380 ACP and .22 Magnum.
@@GunSam thanks very much for your explanation! Fascinating stuff
In deep history , for the first 70 some years , the ubiquitous .38 Spl Service Load was 158gr RNL . And the only other load seen ( except for hardcore gun cranks and handloaders ) was 148gr full Wadcutters .
Fast foreward to the late Revolver Era , and there were a plethora of reasonably effective HP loads of several types .
Also , .38Spl owned the niche of " controllable by people with moderate initial training , and subsequent follow up training/ practicing once or twice a year " .
In this regard , 4 inch .38 is on par with 9mm std pressure . With 9mm fans touting the higher capacity .
@@margarethouse404 You have to really push 9mm to get that butt-rippin power. I see .38 plus P and 90% of 9mm loads as equals
I agree with your comment at the end…this was an interesting test!
Do you have access to any flat base or double ended.38 wadcutter bullets for loading? A couple of things about them: 1) they are shorter than hollow base wadcutters of the same weight so they tend to be more stable for any given twist rate (though the correct facing wadcutters you loaded appeared well stabilized) and 2) you can increase the powder charge on them without fear of leaving the “skirt” of the hollow base stuck in the revolver.
If you are looking for a subject for a video in the future maybe you can load some flat base wadcutters to about 850 to 900 fps and see how they perform.
I have loaded thousands of them in the past. They are often too hard and dense to deform like the hollow ones.
I've shot inverted HBWC as experiments, but 'think' the difference in center-of-gravity tends to cause tumbling. Normal seating for my NRA offhand target competition gives me the best accuracy and nice easy to score round holes.
Interesting results Sam. I actually expected a suprise from the inverted WC but alas, not so. I have a 3” 38 and am curious about your choice of a woods load. No griz here! Just pigs and a few black bears. I want to carry the revolver as I’m more proficient with it. Nice job as usual. Thanks again.
If it were me, I would use something that is 158 gr to insure penetration, maybe like Underwood SWC, but really pigs and black bears aren't significantly different than humans in what will stop them so I would carry something that is in general, warm and heavy.
Kool....
I would like to see the same 38 loads but with 4” barrel on to see if it would stabilize the backwards wad-cutter.
The ORIGINAL hydra shock was originally developed by Brazynski (can't remember exact spelling of his name) because he couldn't get backwards wadcutters to track straight. The lead post was to put enough weight towards the front to track straight and he also expected the post to direct the hydraulic force outwards to promote expansion. It did.
Great video. Really appreciate all you do for information and ballistics on revolvers. I've been considering a snub in a pocket holster for summer carry. And I've been taking more interests in wadcutter loads out of a short Barrel. Looking at the underwood wadcutter loads. Do you recommend any others?
Thanks. Wadcutters from Underwood or Buffalo Bore are often hard cast and really hot, they tend to penetrate through 2 gel blocks. For wadcutters, I personally would stick with Federal, Winchester and Remington if you can get them as they consistently hit around 700 FPS from a 2" barrel, stuff like Fiocchi and Magtech are too low, around 500-600 FPS. Personally if it were me, I would carry the Hornady Critical Defense 110+P as it's the best .38 Special load I have tested. Wadcutters are a good second choice if recoil is a concern.
I just don't feel comfortable with any other wadcutter load than Underwood. The loads that you recommend from Federal, Winchester, and Remington are all but impossible to find. Do you feel the Underwoods are too much of an over penetration risk to use them?
Always learn something from your tests. Looks like a .38 wadcutter in a 2 inch barrel maybe 700 fps (650?) would make a great low recoil defense round. Might have switch my loads from swc to wc. By way your shooting range looks like a peaceful out of the way place.
Nice testing Sam of these rounds. The semi wadcutters and LRN, and modern HPs of various types seem to fit the personal difference bill. While experimenting with backwards rounds seem to keyhole which may cause damage in their own right, but not necessarily ideal like a .223/5.56 or 5.44x39 (AK 74 rounds). ♠️🎩🎯🎱🇺🇲🏁🇺🇦🔱🌻💮🌸🌼🏴☠️🏹
Thanks!
I carry DEWC wadcutters in my 38 Special and 357 Magnum revolvers with 2" or 3" barrels. My favorite loads do much better than the one's you chose for this test. First off these are Hodgdon loads with max charges, use caution and work up safe loads for your handguns. In 38 Special I load 5.0gr of Silhouette powder with a DEWC crimped in the crimp groove just slightly proud of the case mouth, impressive load just slightly +P. In 357 with 357 cases I load 3.5gr. of 700x powder crimping the wad cutter in the crimp groove. I get velocity's in the mid 8's with those fast powders and they are very controllable. I powder coat all my cast bullets so smoke is a non issue. I also have a SP101 in 9mm with a 2" barrel and the 9mm is neck and neck with the 38/357 loads using a pure lead 150gr Lee 358-150-1r resized to .356 and powder coated with 5.5gr of the Silhouette powder. Again a formidable load from the 2" barrel and in my semi's feeds excellent. I have tried the 110gr XTP loads from Hornady, recoil was OK blast and recoil was up significantly. Expansion wasn't really there except for the 357 but controllability was poor for me even in my 3" SP101. I might try Federal Punch next. IMHO I'm not seeing any real advantage with the commercial loads in handguns with the short barrels, just not enough velocity.
Sam, i just shot some Geco 148gr lead wadcutters out of my snubby and had multiple keyholes in a silhouette target. Just an observation. I carry Gold Dot 130gr +P Short Barrel in it but like to shoot the wadcutters at the range sometimes.
Be interesting to see a inverted wadcutter loaded up in a .357 mag to the velocity of the 9mm. Should expand a bit better.
Hyper expansion, fragmentation, and very shallow penetration. Might be OK as a small varmint round. The hollow base wad cutters are usually soft swaged lead. Likely problems driving them to magnum velocities in all revolvers.
It would be interesting to see the reverse wad cutters with a light/moderate 357 powder charge going 1,000-1,250fps
I like the hollow SWC from Hornady.
I don’t know if they will expand.
The lead is pretty soft.
A WC was the Bullseye Shooters preferred boolit for the 25 yard range. The SWC for the 50 yard range.
Many swear by the Plated WC & SWC as far as accuracy. Others say pure lead is the best because it seals the barrel by obturating. I have honestly had luck with all types.
Yeah I have never really seen any bullet style that really is more accurate than another. Most jacketed ammo also squeezes through the bore so they all get tight seals. Some of the most accurate ammo I have ever shot was some of my first ever hand loads in 2015. A 125 gr XTP 5.0 gr Titegroup. Just amazing accuracy. I find lead ammo harder to get more accurate as no matter what you do when you try to get a consistent burn at high pressure which is needed for consistency, now you deal with leading and smoke which can throw the shooter off. Non magnum ammo, loaded to max charges under XTP's specifically (not Speer TMJ's or others) seem to be the most accurate ammo I ever shoot or hand load.
@@GunSam
What was your most accurate load for full sized 9mm autos so far?
Didn't Jim Cirillo like wadcutters? He used them in 38 and made a 45 load too.
I have no idea myself. I am sure other people will know that answer better than I do.
@@GunSam If you've never read his exploits, they make interesting reading. Real world. He was a NYPD cop.
Yes, he did.
Jim’s favorite stakeout weapon was a M1 carbine loaded with Norma soft point ammo that combo dropped a lot of robbers dead on the floor.
Small pistol primers are easy. Large pistol primers are unobtanium.
👍😊🎯
With a 2in 38 snubnose would you personally use wadcutter or Xtreme defenders for self defense
A bit of a FYI regarding Universal powder
Load a standard pressure charge under 158 SWC or RN in 38
Deliberately check for position sensitivity
Five shots powder near bullet
Five shots powder near primer
Ensure powder is in correct nearest and furthest distance from primer in testing….as in level carefully to shoot after positioning powder
Prepare to be quite dismayed
Universal is a fine powder in such as 9mm and 40
Absolutely awful powder in large airspace moderate pressure cartridges like 38 Special, 45 Colt and the like as it’s position sensitivity is extreme with these type of loadings
A deeply seated wadcutter helps reduce position sensitivity via reducing airspace but so many powders do better under such conditions as loading a standard 158 RN or SWC that Universal is the powder of NOT choice in 38.
I have a # of that, but I usually use hp-38 and whatever that equivalent powder is.
Alliant BE-86 with 5.3 grains was like shooting a laser from my 442. 125gr semis, I think.
would you recommend those 148gr fiocchi WC you tested recently for carry?
had i known the 9mm was so loud and powerful id have opted for a .22 lr or wlr
Yes I also expected higher velocity with the backward wc because of the smaller "case capacity" without the hollow base. Maybe you crimped them not as throng?
I used the same light crimp setting, rolling over the nose of the traditional seated one, and that same crimp just rolled into the knurling that the Hornady bullet has. That does indeed make the crimps different, but that being said I have done these same type of loads with Titegroup powder and the backwards one even seated out more, still went faster.
The hollow based wad cutter acts like a Minié bullet. The thin skirt at the base better seals the bullet in the bore. Could this be the reason for the velocity difference?
I’ve always wanted to see some performance of loaded wadcutters like these in a lever gun!
How would you cycle the cartridges? There must be a slope to the head of a cartridge to do so.
i'm not sure what kind of performance you would be expecting. The velocity would potentially be less in a rifle barrel VS a handgun with ammo like these.
@@GunSam You really think so? I've always seen a gain in performance with standard .38/.357 in my marlin, but haven't ever tried wadcutters
@@beautifulzion5791 That's a good point, I didn't consider that. I'd still try it if I could, though. I think if it worked, it would be nice to see an increase in capacity of the tube magazine
British Military and Canadian used .38-200 ammo called manstoppers. I have some do not know how the velocity is but was intended to be equal to .455 Eley. That is basically 38SW + P. Curious at to how effective it would be...
I have loaded the American version "Super Police" loads. The 200 gr .35 Remington bullets. They do very well and are super quiet. All you really got to do when making them, is it's just like 158 gr LRN load data, but instead of going by overall length, they are seated to the maximum they can be seated, which creates roughly the same internal pressure and space as 158 gr LRN but they move at 600-700 FPS. czcams.com/video/-WroVmr_16s/video.html
I tried 35 rems for light 357 loads in my 357 redhawk. Shooting off hand, they were plenty accurate, and handled very easy out of that giant gun.
I have the Atomic. I bought it because it was odd looking.
swc-hp in med hard lead run faster may need a slower powder if clays is at max ??
Very nice! Can you do a video on the 75gr 358101 wadcutter? It was mostly loaded to 650fps.
I have never heard of that. Is it .32 caliber or something?
It's a 38 special target wadcutter. Some people load two for a rancher varmint load. Lyman 358101 is the mold number
Can't speak to those specifically .
At the tail end of the Revolver Era , the major commercial reloading outfits sold at lot of reman ammo with 100 gr WC , marketed as practice ammo .
I never chronograph ed any , but felt recoil was noticeably less than 148gr WC . With such short projectiles and lousy b/c , they would be unstable in flight at longer ranges . But 25 yds and under , they were on par with low bidder 148 WC commercial reloads .
That bullet for ,photobytaps is rolled by /listed by Matt's bullets be happy Peace
I believe the 38 Wdcutter defence load with a swaged HBWC is a waste of time. To make acceptable velocities it must be driven near max but then there is the possibility of blowing the skirts off, the deep hollow base walls, off. I had a "house gun" load usinf a DEWC loaded high with W231. No worries with a soft swaged deep hollow base coming apart in the barrel and no leading. That would be a good test. Mid to upper charges of Universal with a medium hard, BHN 14-15, DEWC and shoot that into gel...
Saw federal 327 hst in stock today just missed it. Hope you got some
I have never seen it in stock anywhere.
@@GunSamederal sent me an email but was sold out soon thereafter. I saw some hammerdown 327 on gunbroker for about 1.30 a round. That stuff is supposedly good in a 2 inch taurus
Because of the 90⁰ shoulder on a wadcutters, they cut flesh, while a pointy jacket will sort of just squeeze through.
That 20" depth wadcutter will wreck any two legged predator.
Have you found plated or coated hollow base to be different are best to you n your,s Peace
What ammo did Paul Kersey use in his .32 ?
No one knows. I have been wanting to know that for years, even going as far as pausing the movie where the detective was holding a recovered bullet from a mugger on gauze. From that, I would speculate some form or partially jacketed bullet, potentially SJHP like the Magtech 98 gr SJHP that does exist.
Looks almost like the hollow forward wadcutter was unstable prior to hitting the gel. As if the bullet didn't get stabilized.
Great test with wadcutters bullets !
I’ve returned to the full wadcutters 2 years ago but went with 155 grain this time !
I also went with full wadcutters in my .44 all the years I’ve shot the .44 I’ve never fired wadcutters in that caliber, range day is just a few days away now !
Why not find out !
Which 38 special Wadcutter would you best recommend for self defense out of a snub nose?
If I recall, the Winchester SuperX did the best as it had the most power. Over on Lucky Gunner website under labs/.38 Special and .357 Magnum Self-Defense Ammo Ballistics Test, they show a few wadcutters tested in gel. You can look at that and you will see some differences. They used two barrel lengths.
Which does more damage the hollow base wadcutter or the full wadcutter
Plain old 38 wad cutter loaded normally is fine
I can’t remember if you have tried this or not, but have you ever tried backwards 357 magnum wad cutters? Also have you ever accidentally shot your chronograph? Ha ha, I accidentally shot my chronograph last week with a hornady leverevolution 44 mag! 😮 but I ordered a new one.
The .380 from your last test did more damage than that 9mm in plain gel lol. Extreme Defenders are hard to beat...
I did a demonstration for my Patreon people, where I stabbed a basketball pump in a gel block, one pump caused the same damage in it as the Xtreme Defender. Now, maybe this is coincidental, maybe it is all air pressure and air pressure can still cause damage, I have no idea. I do know that Xtreme Defenders do have a very consistent penetration depth which most people consider number one in terminal ballistics.
@@GunSam Interesting. However, if you do the same thing to a ballon, what happens to it? It expands. With my knox gel, I get wound cavities from good expanded 9mm hollow points like gold dot or hst that are 2" in diameter. The bullet doesn't expand to 2", more like 1/4 of that as you know. Therefore, the sharp pedals of the expanded bullet aren't cutting the gel 2" wide, so what is? Fluid disruption, same thing the Extreme Defenders do. It's harder to see this in the clear gel because the wound channels on most pistol rounds are so tiny compared to the knox gel. I've probably said this before here and certainly on my own channel, but I think real world results fall somewhere between what the clear and knox gel displays. I state this based on examining wounds on animals I hunted with the same ammo that I have put into both types of blocks.
Gun Sam. I have a question. I have an opertunity to buy a charter arms 38 spl snub nose. It's almost new. Are they OK carry guns. Im getting a very good deal from New. I see them for sale at local gun store. .😊😊
I honestly don't have experience with Charter Arms revolvers despite me planning on getting one or two for years. I just haven't got one yet. One of my CZcams friends is a huge Charter Arms fan with lots of them. I would suggest you ask him. Here's his CZcams channel: www.youtube.com/@crankygunreviews
What is the brand of the Wadcutters?
What do you think about Federal standard pressure 148g WC for carry with a 6" revolver?
My guess is that they could potentially slow down in 6" of barrel VS 3" to 4" of barrel because of how low powder charges are in wadcutters and longer barrels start to add drag. Wouldn't be substantial differences, but more or less you would probably get the same velocity and performance I get in my 2" barrel.
Soft shooting, very consistent and accurate to at least 50 yards. Near perfect penetration with better wounding than lead round nose, fmj, or substandard hollow points that don't expand. Less wounding than the best +p hollow points.
@Artful Alias my gun is old, so no +p and can't have hollow points where I live. So I'm thinking it's probably one of my better options.
When the Taurus 856 T.O.R.O red dot?
When what?
I'm always wondering about penatration, Recent CPR training was half the depth of the torso. so I measure my self as 14 inches in my chair so i need to copress 7 incheches or so to be efecctive. I'm thimking a 10 inch penatration kills me if hit in the heart . Fyi 6 foot man 230 pounds
People are 3 dimensional.
So comparing the last WC test with this one it seems like the sweet spot might be about 700fps.
How about a. .32 S&W long 98 grain lead wadcutter?
Just tested those, but factory ammo all forward.
@@GunSam What does "factory ammo all forward" mean? How much did they penetrate in the gel? Would you carry it?
Would you say you are point shooting at the close ranges?
I have never really known how to explain it as descriptions of different methods don't always compute in my brain. Basically, once I get a front sight picture on shot one, I pop off a round...then if it hits, my muscle memory has already taken over and the rest just seem to land without really looking at anything but blurry combinations of the pistol slide and target.
@@GunSam I would say that is a pretty good explanation. I have struggled to explain it myself but finally came to the conclusion that I am really just ignoring the rear sight and almost entirely ignoring the front.. This is close range... We like to mess around with hip shooting sodas at say 10' or so... For anything precise tho at any range I focus on sight picture.
No. They are better. I use Underwood 150g hardcast wadcutters
Ever seen cast wadcutters that have a gas check?
I may have seen them with Buffalo Bore loads if I recall. I have never had hand loading bullets with them on them, nor have I tried installing my own gas checks.
@@GunSam Yeah I was curious if wadcutters had them. I've seen plenty of semi-wadcutters with gas checks. Not sure the recommended velocity/pressure threshold before it is recommended to use them.
Please test expansion 38 special 110grain Federal Hydra Shok low recoi!l
Why? I literally just did a month ago, so why would I do it again?
czcams.com/video/8q3cZ0emCkw/video.html
I wish you'd work on that wadcutter load. Please don't invert the bullet and strive for 800fps. I bet you get an accurate deeply penetrating load that disrupts tissue well.
If you bump up that powder charge or swap to a powder with a little more muscle I think you would be good to go. Of course that is depending on the hardness of those WC's. I load some of the rimrock wc's at 38 +p velocities and they perform quite well with very mild recoil.
Hey! I’ve seen this before! Are you editing and reposting videos to comply with ever-changing (capricious and ridiculous) CZcams rules and policies?
You saw it on Patreon lol. This is my first release of it on actual CZcams.
I think the hydrashok 9mm is old tech by now
RoaR
My experiments with HBWC loaded backwards, in the mid '80s was a big fail. Too inconsistent, HB clogs, HB collapse, poor accuracy. Even at 10', too inconsistent...
There have been experiments proving that shooting 38 Special in a 357 Magnum chamber may destabilize the bullet to the point (in case of certain loads) of "key-holing" the target.
Most probably there is also a minute pressure loss as the gas slightly disperses in the transitory chamber gap as opposed to a proper 38 Special chamber, wherein it can only go forward until cylinder gap.
Would you say that a mid sized 38 like the s&w model 10 is more accurate than a mid sized 9mm like the g17 despite the longer double action trigger pull?
Personally, I would say yes a .38 Special model 10 is more accurate than maybe a G17. The trigger pull is one of those things....a person who knows how to correctly shoot a double action trigger is using a totally different part of the finger and muscle than a typical semi auto trigger position, so in many regards - for the muscle pulling the double action trigger and having the finger much deeper on the trigger, the actual finger pull length is not more than let's say, a Glock typical trigger press.
Reversed hollow base wad cutters won't be accurate, they are unstable. Try softer cast double ended wad cutters. Yes I knew someone who loaded reversed hollow base wc and the thief with the knife who tried to get clever when her car broke down regretted it for the rest of his life... However there were burns on his tee shirt.
Why is it that almost every time someone compares .38/.38+ with the 9mm, they use use a heavier bullet for the .38? I’ve seen several were a 158gr .38 is compared with 115gr or 124gr 9mm. In this case, he is comparing 148gr .38 to 124gr 9mm. How is that a fair comparison.
Who ever said this is supposed to be "fair"? But to answer a specific question on wadcutters, wadcutters for .38 Special are 99% of the time 148 gr. Sure, you could run a 147 gr 9mm.....but everyone knows 147 gr 9mm is the absolutely worst performing 9mm weight. The 124 gr is the MOST common 9mm weight. A 148 gr .38 wadcutter is the MOST common wadcutter weight. If one was to ask about fairness, I would say what I did is as "fair" as one could get by using the most common weights.
@@GunSam Good point on the wadcutter. I didn't know that as I don't shoot wadcutter bullets. But, besides a wadcutter, why is it that a lot of people do a comparison between the 9mm and .38 and it seems that they always pick the 158gr .38.? Myself, I use 125gr .38+P.. Does the vast majority use .38/.38+P 158gr bullets? Is the 158gr better, even though it would be slower? Not a ballistics guy like you, so that is why I ask.
@@ndguam I can't speak for other people or why they use 158 gr, unless they are just being cheap and using 158 gr lead round nose. I would say 95% of my tests with .38 Special are 125 and 110 gr both in +P. I generally compare .38+P 125 gr to 9mm 124 gr, and 110 gr .38+P to 115 gr 9mm.
Those Fiocchi wadcutters are terrible.
Didn't watch but simple answer... If you get hit by either you are screwed.