How to choose the right tool holder for your CNC Machine | DN Solutions
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- čas přidán 29. 08. 2022
- CNC Machine shop basics. Heres how to choose the right tool holders for your CNC Machine.
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#CNC #Machining #Machinist - Věda a technologie
Barry you are the BOSS! Those hands? The strongest roughing tools out there! That body? The most rigid and completely indestructible mass of sheer power with no competition! No machine can match you!
Hahahahaha
You'd be the tool holder 😬
@@TH-bj1pb LMAO nice one XD
😂
Great video Barry! The average machine operator is only trained to pick up any holder the tool fits. I only started to learn this information as I encountered problems and/or when outside service representatives had to be called in, some came with a machining background.
My advice to all machinists, make friends with field service technicians and applications engineers who service your machine tools. They will teach you things most won't. That's how I know much of what I do outside of general machine operation.
One other thing to note: HSK gets clamped on the inside while BT and SK get clamped from the outside on the stud. Because of the centrifugal forces at high RPMs the clamping force gets weaker on BT and SK while it gets stronger on HSK holders. This is something to keep in mind for really fast spinning spindles (like 30k and more)
Max rpm is 12 revolutiones per minut so no problem, hsk100 is the best tool taper!
@@ktgmobile2552 12 rpm is extremely low, are you sure that's what you meant to write?
Weight is not the ONLY reason you can run HSK or Capto faster than a traditional milling machine taper.
The drawbar is a HUGE difference. To put it as simply as possible 30/40/50 taper tools "OD clamp" the pullstud so the faster you rotate the less clamping force you have. HSK on the other hand "ID clamps the toolholder" faster = greater clamping force
Very true! You can only fit so much in a 10 minute video on the basics, but it's also worth noting that the faster you spin it, the harder it pulls..........
"So you want to be machinist huh" yea "there is a chance you've been doing this all wrong" yea probably
As long as it's not too wrong, it's just a work in progress lol.
😂😂 this is too accurate
I take that as an absolute win. We learned something not to do in the future 😂
But this is the way I've been doing it for years!
Additionally, if what you do works - do it your way.
Wow! What a great idea, I never seen anybody do such a comprehensive introduction/explanation of the the things machinist use every day. Great job Barry!
Thanks Karlo!
Well, you probably wasn't looking fot it. Haas Tip of the Day made it long time ago 😉
Clean work depends 50 percent on the right tools and 50 percent on the skill of the machinist 👷♂️
Great work Mr. Barry I hope to see more and more of these videos in the future
but next time we want to see Mr. Titan here man
we miss him so much BOOM 💥
In machining (any skilled profession), it's 95% machinist and 5% tooling. Had this argument with a former owner some 25 yrs ago. Skill will always, in every instance, in any profession - trump equipment or system.
Great video. As someone in the business of selling these I think you hit on almost everything we teach in an entire day of training in 10 mins 👍
Hey thanks Nick! It wasnt easy to condense it all, but we are glad you approve!
Great reassurance. I came to an aerospace MRO company using some off brand Korean tools and I’ve been slowly incorporating some high end kennametal tools. So far I’ve been able to prove the efficacy of the cutters and the hydro force holders, so the next step is a huge order of hydraulic and hydro force chucks !
Awesome! Gotta love seeing other people succeed by using a quality product!
Then again, I think Kennametal sucks and would never order any. 🤣
Then again, its also funny to watch someone fail due to their own incorrect prejudices
@@barrysetzer Then again, Kennametal isn't at or near the top of the industry for a reason. Is, and has been overrated for a long time. Wonder who is more correct, the industry as a whole (myself included) or you.
Awwww very cute. Feel free to come take some lessons in productivity.
My Bridgeport uses R8 collets
Great instructional video, extremely well done and thorough. For someone that's been around it's easy to pick up. For people that are new, I wish you had broken down your rating system and explained what each rank was actually measuring (TIR, Dampening, torque, etc)
Finally a video on tool holders! :D Great work, if you don't mid a part two (or more) and getting into more details would be so awesome! Great work as always!
A tip with collet is to get it snug then spin the tool as you tighten. Helps with runout
Good advice!
Does it matter which direction you spin the tool?
truue im doing the same
This is what you call a knowledge bomb.
Great knowledge sharing. Been struggling to understand this things at the beginning of my career 14 yrs ago in complex composites machining with 5 axis CNC (HSK63A). Lots of try and error to reach today performance. This video helps a lot in transmitting knowledge to new machinists. Thx so much!! From Aerospace Composites Malaysia
in the uk re dont have cat40/cat50, we use metric version bt40/bt50
great information for the industry, Thank you Barry for always helping. Your one of the anchors in the manufacturing industry, hold it down baybeee!
Why thank you, Ben! All about helping out our brothers in the trade!
Main benefit of HSK is the drawbar opens up inside rather than clamping the outside of the pullstud. So faster RPM clamps it harder rather than letting go.
Some downsides like harder to keep clean and expensive
Pick the right machine for your job👍
Do they make tri-contact HSK holders?
@@richpryor9650 no, the steps and dimensions would be required to be 0 and that’s not commercial durable
@@kleini3 As in rugged or viable?
@@richpryor9650 as in to expensive for everyone to pay for it
@@kleini3 No, you just have to believe
Lot of great information. Learn something new everyday. Much love and gratitude
REGO-FIX powRGrip holders are great too. Just about every machine tool manufacturer at IMTS was using these holders while showcasing their machines.
Theyre great holders, but like Shrinkfit, requires pricey equipment to change tools, with the added downside of it being a proprietary system. It does have the advantage over shrinkfit during catastrophic tool breakage - you snap an endmill down the hole in a shrinkfit holder, and it is usually a writeoff due to bore damage. Regofix, like collet chucks, it can mean tossing the collet, but the much pricier tool body remains unharmed.
One thing that gets over looked with cat/bt holders is the pullstud. Specifically the torque used to attach them to the holder. Most of the time the specified value is too high. What happens is the small end of the holder buldges slightly. That interferes with how the holder fits in the taper of the spindle. This over time shows up a wear pattern at the small end and at the flange end of the holder. What's actually happening is that since the holder is not making contact through out the taper it ends up like the clapper in a bell. This is why they seem to have such bad runout. A properly fitted pullstud that doesn't buldge the holder will make the holder contact the full lenght of the taper and will run much truer. Take a look at the cat/bt holders in most shops and you're likely to see the tell tale wear pattern of over tightened pull studs.
you took the words right out of my mouth. Whenever I go to setup a small tool, I always check runout of the holder. If it's running out a lot, it's usualy because someone went all beast mode on the pull stud
@@douglaspierce7031 There's a company out there that makes extended threaded length pullstuds. They reach deeper into the holder with a larger thread relief near the small end of the holder. This design helps mitigate the bulging.
Cant wait for the vídeo about the other holder that you refered... Im learning from watching your vídeos! Thank you 🙏
Super cool vid!! I try to use 100% shrink fit, cus I do small work and will be buying a robo with a 5th axis soon. They are so simple to use and stay clean and have great runout.
I'm moving to shrink fit
Machining just got a lot more complicated. LOL Love it.
Zero mention of capto tooling which I found interesting.
This video was more about the tool end connection. Like I said, there are plenty of other spindle connection types!
Probably capto is not popular in US but very common in EU and definitely far better then HSK both accuracy and rigidity
Everything I knew about machining was wrong. I didn't know anything correctly before I watched this video. Now, I know a little bit about machining. Thanks.
Awesome information to share Barry! Great paced video, with lots of great information! Good Job!
Thanks Chris!
This is super informative and should be shown to all new (and old) machinists
Thanks Tyson! Boom!
I like watching these videos then going to work and using an old manual mill from the 80s
Haven’t seen the safe lock TE end mills yet but I have 6 new shrink fit safe lock holders waiting on them. As a side note though I have not personally seen it I have heard of a safe lock coming out of a hydraulic holder. I can’t see how it is possibles but one of the Kennametal guys was telling me about it. Thanks for the videos!
In China, we use ER holders at the most of time, side lock holders is rare.
Excellent video Barry!! Tons of great info here. I just want to say that if you make parts out of fairy dust you don’t need any of those tools! 😆 great work dude!
LOL but you still need these to face off your build plates ;)
@@barrysetzer WHATEVER 😂
Hydraulic holders are my favorite too! You should try the original HYDRO-GRIP from the Swedish company ETP that for 20 years used to OEM for Sandvik Coromant but have their own distribution last 10 years. They have unique technology and products being “maintenance-free”👍🇸🇪🌱
Ur sample cat 50 shown in vid doesn’t appear to be dual contact
Very informative video.I am machinist for 18 years one of main problems i saw in different shop holding flatness of part within 0.0001.Can you make a video about that?
Saludos desde Guadalajara Jal, Mex
me gustan sus consejos y me alientan a ser mejor en mi trabajo
Gone the days of the fly cutter, that is what we called them in the UK.
I know a guy that got his hand ripped up badly with one on a manual mill,
and they wreck your bearings.
Nice Video but don't forget there are some classifications for the ER Collets as well. Some are more accurate and they also have them with Vibration Dampeners and coolant Holes.
Great info and very helpful for beginner. Keep it up. Boooomm
Great summary, thanks Barry!
Very informative and interesting content! keep up the content, here is another quite fresh machinist from Finland.
Something i would like to see from you guys would be reaction videos to those "rural machining" :D videos from India or who knows from where!
Outstanding video!
You can have dual contact Cat 40 and that BT30 you had in your had is a dual contact Big Plus holder.
Thankyou this was very informative information
These are the best tool holders. And we sell them in our shop.
Equivalent to the typical “I’ve actually got one of these myself actually”.
Really great tooling tutorial 👏👏
Hi Barry. I love this holders
Hey thanks buddy! 💪
What are your thoughts on the "Capto" style adaptors?
expensive but the best Adapter for maschining.
@@Annomaster1 not anymore, cost the same as HSK. The patent has expired
@@kleini3 so its not more expensive to grind a capto holder?
Love this video, can we see a video on how to improve efficiency when machining, we have a young group of toolmakers at our shop with experience of 2 years all the way up to 15-20 years but need to find better ways of running our programs over night and tips and tricks to ensure we are getting full use of the machines to keep management happy and to reduce hours on quoted jobs for making mould tools. Love this channel and the content it provides.
And we love comments like yours! We have done sooooo many videos on being more efficient, so we will look into making a playlist specifically for that. Love it when we see people actively trying to improve the bottom line at their shops!!!
@@barrysetzer Thankyou for the reply Barry I will keep an eye out for this playlist
@@thomastruscott99 Sure! and you might start looking at our MasterClass Machining playlist. Lots of good stuff in there!
@@barrysetzer I will start right away, thanks to you and the whole team for sharing you knowledge and experience to improve everyone in the trade and I look forward to the videos that are coming in the near future.
Why? They pay you buy the hour. If it's running at the quoted time, you're fine. You will never see that profit you're creating so what's the point
Capto holders are the best!
Have you guys ever worked with SECO capto holders? Or any other polygon holders for that matter.
Great video, I'm currently working on two machines, one HSK63 and one CAT50, i do like the HSK more because they're lighter and still pretty rigid. Good thing we use both depending on the job.
Also, Albrecht holders are also very easy to use and have very good runout and strength. Kind of like an hydraulic force holder, just that the collet is drawn into the conic hole by a thread. Very interchangeable and versatile tools
Kennametal would be pissed.😂😂
@@goldstandardgroup3452 Jep, Titans is a social media channal for Kennametal. You won't see anything from the competition here, even if they are many times better, such as Sandvik's Y-Axis parting.
I have used Seco and Sandvik. And despite what these other 2 geniuses say, we are not a social channel for anyone. WE decide what we like best, and then show you why we like it. If people disagree, that's fine! We all have opinions. But Kennametal is THE LARGEST HOLDER MANUFACTURER on EARTH. So naturally, we have alot of Kennametal holders!
@@barrysetzer I can't find any information on who is the largest manufacturer of toolholders, but the market capitalization of Sandvik is ten times larger than that of Kennametal. By the way, Sandvik also includes Seco, Walter, TDM, Vericut, ...
What else belongs to Kennametal, I do not know.
In the end, every manufacturer has certain products that are good and others that are bad. The difficulty is to find the right product for your operation.
@@flyffpsy Agreed!
Hi i have a question . Do you balance your tool holders and from what rpm you advice it . Thanks from the Netherland
Awesome editing!
Thank you for this video.
Nice video. Good job.
Great sir 👍
love from italy, you guys are amazing. Would love to do a visit at workshop. booooooommmmmmmm like titan say
Haha thanks Amritpal! BOOM!
Thank you for your kind words! If you're ever in the Texas area, reach out to us! BOOM! 🤙
Nice video but the music got annoying while he was trying to talk about the tooling
What about RegoFix Power Grip Tool Holders? Thank you very much from DENATEK Spain.
Top work Barry!
Thanks bro! Just trying to help!
Good information !
That's a pretty cool presentation Mr. Barry.
I have a few questions? Have you had shrink fit holders pull out on you? Every time I have had a roughing path which had a section with too much radial engagement the endmill would pull out an 1/8" and pop it like it's not so hot. I have used them with limited radial engagement dynamic tool paths with no issues and it gave me good clearance for that job. I like the shrink fit extensions for clearance on some 5 axis transformations more than the ER extensions.
How tight do you need to tighten hydraulic holders and mill chucks. I'm guilty of the put a cheater on it and be sure its tight, extra tight. I've seen little torque wrenches for hydraulic holders but I don't trust them. Just an aside for sharing my experience, I have never pulled a tool out of a mill chuck, but I have on a hydraulic, and once a hydraulic holder pulls out it will do it again in my experience. So off to the recycling gods she goes.
How in the hell do you tune those devibe arbor holders? The DMU 90P that I run the most had vibration sensing but I have never seen any instructions when I opened up the holders on how to tune them. Is there a SOP for tuning them? I've asked a few people and I really didn't get much of an answer.
With that hydro force holder with the safe lock collet do you have to use a specific endmill brand or can you grind it yourself on a T&C grinder?
HAhaha hey stiles, soooooo yes i have pulled tools out of shrink fit holders. Hell, i have pulled several cat40 holders out of the SPINDLE on an Okuma horizontal. Thats why i lean toward roughing holders that prevent pullout. As for hydraulic holders, i like the Kennametal ones because you tighten the bolt all the way till it stops. No cheater bar required. And the tuneable holders are trial and error. Test them, and see what you get!!!
@@barrysetzer I have four 1 1/2" hydroforce hsk 100's at work. I looked up the cost of the hydraulic reducer with the safelock, and omg I don't think I can I can get anyone to cut a po for one /sadface
If I were to get medieval after some 15-5 doing dynamic roughing with safelock which Kennametal endmill would you use. Or 625/718 for that matter.
Almost all the toolholders are erickson so I got a lot of the same hydro holders, I like the 20mm long boys with a reducer for side clearance and long reach too.
Thanks scene-your Barry!
Hello again, Stiles! So when it comes to those materials, there are 3 cutters that i absolutely stand behind. For heavy radial engagement, its the Harvi 1TE every time. That tool has blown my mind. But for light radial, you have 2 options. The Kor6, a 6 flute tool that has chip splitters if you need good chip management, or the Harvi3 Aero, which not only blows my mind, but also won the Boeing challenge for tool life. A couple months ago, we actually had a group come into our shop from a large, advanced aerospace company, and we blew their mind in some NASTY 718 inconel with the 1TE and 3 aero. That demo was actually why i knew THIS test video would work:
czcams.com/video/FGpsH_dd0vs/video.html
i don't see any R8 holders in there 😆
I prefer APC for accuracy.
Anyone have input on Haimer's Heavy duty shrink chucks vs Hydraulic?
What would you recommend for making complete rotary engines?
Money. Lots and lots of money.
Shouldve mentioned something about collets having a tool life as well. something i didnt know until not that long ago
Good tips 👍.
capto beats them all and i've seen HSK up to 180 on a 250kw machine
Have you seen those polygon tapered toolholders by sandvik? They would be cool to see demonstrated. Also, I have been trying to get my company to switch from ER collet holders to hydraulic or shrink, and they won’t. We are heart of the semiconductor anode industry and the money is there, we do everything the slow way, yet I can’t get them to listen about the benefits. Our feeds are sad, my department alone provides 70% of the entire worlds supply and we could increase Efficiency 500% with a couple small changes..
I have a quick question. I work for a company that does mass production of a part. I am trying to make a standard to judge if a tool holder is reusable. A lot of our tool holders have uneven wear to the taper. Is it still okay to use for mass production?
It depends on your tolerances.
Cat40 can be had dual contact too.
It ist right that HSK holders can run faster than steep taper tool holder. But it is not due to their lower mass. It is because the clamping force gets higher wit the rpm and not lower like it is the case with steep taper holders.
Something to note, after long enough use of shrink fit tool holders. After consistent reheats to put new tools in or tools breaking at the base of the shrinker.
The runout gets worse and worse over time for the holder. Which can lead and cause tool breakages inside your parts
Extra note, hydraulic holders aren't the best when it comes to tapping a part, or in some cases drilling. It will pull your tap or drill into the hydraulic if you use one for the application
we use the HSK100 holders with a coolant tube on the inside. they are freaking crazy
All my misconceptions about tool holders…. 💨
gone!
Haha good! Thanks for watching!
Barry, how much does the machine you're using play into toolholder selection?
Oh...how good are the machines "Markforded" makes? In your "Thank you to our Partners" section, they seem to make the Metal X, X7 and Mark Two.
Hey bud. When it comes to machine, assuming you already have a set spindle connection type, all the rules from this video on tool end connection apply. But, you also have to consider what youre using the machine for. If its just light roughing and finishing in aluminum, you probably wont need a beefy super holder. But if you plan to get aggressive, gotta step your game up! As for the printers, i love Markforged. I spent a few years managing our additive equipment at Mooney International, which included a Stratasys 900mc. The Markforged printers have excellent accuracy, reliability, and are very user friendly!
@@barrysetzer Look a bit closer at my comment...your crew misspelled "Markforged" three times in your "thank you" section of the header to this video.
Let me throw out a little scenario. You've got two blocks of hard metal and two machinists that have to rough them out on different mills. Machinist A has a mill with a 30hp spindle, Machinist B has one with a 75hp spindle. They're using Titan's speeds and feeds. Would the same holder work properly on both mills (assuming the connector on the spindle shaft is compatible, naturlich) or would you want to choose a lighter-weight holder for the small mill to prevent bogging it down from turning unnecessary mass and a heavier holder for the large machine to dampen vibration?
Well, naturally its INCREDIBLY important to understand what your machine can and cant do. I just filmed a video friday that talks about some of our “feeds and speeds” and understanding that some of these videos are just to get you thinking. Stay tuned for that one. But no, the same strategies that work on our NHM6300 will NOT work on our Tormachs for example. As for someone misspelling Markforged, apologies. We are Titans of CNC after all, not Titans of Spelling and Grammar. (I wanted to spell that “grammer” fyi to trigger you, but i resisted) 😜
Btw, thank you for catching that spelling error. The team is fixing it as we speak.
Fun fact, CAT40 and CAT50 both come with standard taper only as well as a plus series with dual contact.
How does regofix stack up in this list?
My favourite spindle connection type is the chips that fall into the taper and get crushed up into the spindle during tool changes because the operator couldn't be bothered to clean their machine.
Yes this sucks :D i am always too lazy to clean those and been facing this issue many many times, hsk100 the problem is bigger but for the bt40 not so much
Alot of these tools are for a mill and i dont do much on them anymore i run more lathes nowadays.. but one thing ive always had trouble with is knowing when to use a free floating tap! Also alot of programers nowadays really enjoy 35 deg cutting inserts to rough alot of material instead of an 80 deg and this is common for alot of straight turns no angles or anything special.. why is it being used alot when 80deg are proven to work better and longer.. how do i convince my programmer to start cooperating it into the work??
If the turning profile doesn't require a 35 degree tool just use an 80 with the same tool nose radius as the 35 degree tool. You might get a slight difference in surface finish, but nothing crazy. One benefit to a 35 degree tool is it's less prone to vibration/chatter than an 80 degree tool. That would only really be an issue on long length to diameter parts though.
@@brandons9138 yea im pretty good about using 80 deg and when to use it and finish wouldnt be a prob if you use an 80 as a rougher and came in with a 35 for a decent sf..but ive been seeing more and more 35deg rough and 35 deg finish is it something being taught at schools to do it that way,do they do that as a contract thing so tooling companies sell more tools?? Am i thinking to much into it bec i cant understand...but i was more focused on how i get my programmer to use them.. i cant just change out tooling without approval or it can cost me my job and we dont want that... but if ya wanna put in your input on when i should use a free floating tap im all ears..
@@shadow_stalk Honestly I've never used floating tap holders ever. If the machine is capable of rigid tapping I don't see the point in them. What kind of materials do you normally work with? We use a lot of 35° and 55° tools at my shop, but we deal primarily in plastics. Insert strength is not much of a problem for us.
Hey have u ever used bilz holder
We have them in our shop for our rigid tap holders. They work great, makes it really easy to change a broken tap, and switching between bilz quick change tap adaters is a matter of seconds.
We do not rough with ER collets. You'd be wise to do the same.
It so temptating to push it a little more after seeing the Titan rough cuttings vids, but if you only have ER collet don't do it, the change for endmill drop out or slide out will ruin your table or wise when the endmill will kiss your table plane or wise.
Hello. Why do you work in Mastercam and not in SolidCAM?
My mill has a BT30 taper, so I tend to pick BT30 toolholders
I don't know about you but I'm stuck with what they buy and that's the truth in most shop's , not shure what world your living in but it's not the world 90% of us live in .
The world I live in is where you explain to them why what they are buying needs to CHANGE, and then you use this video to explain WHY
@@barrysetzer that's funny shit ! If you think the higher ups would listen to us out on the floor you are dead wrong my friend .
@@scottkinkead6324 Then you work at a pretty crappy shop, sir!
♥
You gonna show me how to ballance a shell mill?... please?... I just started and it's taking so much down time....
Hahha, full slot that sub button... hahahaha :D
Is it possible to do Internships at Titans of CNC
Most machinist will never have the chance to even see half of those stuff.
Boom
what about DMC holders?
There's a chance that some of those Haimer tool holders came through my hands 😎
Merhaba neden big plus bbt tutuculari incelemeye ve karsilastirmaya almadiniz ???
I’m just wondering if ceramics ever recognized heat
I would have wanted more information and a video twice as long😅
Dampening capability? That depends on whether it has through coolant capability.
It's called DAMPING.
Isn't the standard called SK-50, instead of cat 50?