The Atheist Experience 766 Matt Dillahunty and Jen Peeples
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- čas přidán 2. 07. 2012
- The Atheist Experience 766 for June 17, 2012 Matt Dillahunty and Jen Peeples.
Viewer calls, including a long one on fly evolution.
SHOW TIME-STAMPS
00:44- Intro & Announcements - Matt Dillahunty
02:50- Jen Peeples - dating of paleolithic art
10:33- Mike: fruit flies as evidence of 'Darwinian' evolution, evolution does not include common ancestry
32:16- Jay (theist): context matters when examining answered prayer, veterinary miracles
56:57- Kelly: her mother took scissors to Richard Dawkins' 'The God Delusion'
You can read more about this episode on the official Atheist Experience blog:
► freethoughtblogs.com/axp/2012/...
WHAT IS THE ATHEIST EXPERIENCE?
The Atheist Experience is a weekly cable access television show in Austin, Texas geared at a non-atheist audience. The Atheist Experience is produced by the Atheist Community of Austin.
The Atheist Community of Austin is organized as a nonprofit educational corporation to develop and support the atheist community, to provide opportunities for socializing and friendship, to promote secular viewpoints, to encourage positive atheist culture, to defend the first amendment principle of state-church separation, to oppose discrimination against atheists and to work with other organizations in pursuit of common goals.
We define atheism as the lack of belief in gods. This definition also encompasses what most people call agnosticism.
VISIT THE ACA'S OFFICIAL WEB SITES
► www.atheist-community.org (The Atheist Community of Austin)
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MUSIC CREDITS
Theme song: "Listen to Reason," written and performed by Bryan Steeksma.
► / bryansteeksma
► www.myspace.com/bryansteeksma
NOTES
TheAtheistExperience is a fan appreciation channel on CZcams.
"The Atheist Experience" is a registered trademark of the ACA.
Creative Commons license: BY, NC, SA
► creativecommons.org/licenses/b...
“Stop with the hundreds of thousand of years”😂😂😭
I’m marveled every time I see this that Mike thinks fruit fly evolution is a time machine
I love all the elaborate arguments these callers present for their belief's and how under just a bit of scrutiny they all fall apart . And still they cling to these unfounded belief's . You'd hope that most humans would think rationally but it seems most don't .
This felt like a hundred thousand of years.
That guy going on about evolution and Darwinian evolution as if they aren't the exact same thing needs better education.
I understand that this is 4 years old.
But you're wrong. Evolution is not the same as Darvinian evolution.
Darwinian Evolution is a method of how evolution works.
There are other theories that proposed other method of evolution.
Athrun000
Show a proven “theory” of evolution besides the Darwinian-based proposition.
Oggy Oggy - The "unexpected offspring" theory: Every few thousand years a cow gives birth to a hedgehog, or a chihuahua gives birth to a seagull, or a duck gives birth to a leopard etc. QED
@@Athrun000 Darwin proposed his theory of evolution 160 years ago. Since that time, the theory has been highly modified because of the new information that has been discovered. Darwin knew nothing about molecular biology, biochemestry, or genetics for example. For that reason, it no longer makes sense to call it Darwinian Evolution, but it's the same theory (ToE) in the sense all the modifications have been made to Darwin's original theory. DE is a description of how evolution works, the ToE is a description of how evolution works.
Modified or not, evolution via selection is a Darwinian theory.
Calling is Darvinian evolution is not incorrect.
Still doesn't change what i've say, evolution is not the same as Darvinian evolution
Here's from advice for Jay in Minneapolis:
When you're praying for something to happen and there are known forces at work trying to make said thing happen, you CANNOT declare that prayer has any effect.
Wow! Mike has this to be embarrassed by for the rest of his life.
Well done dude.
my first and most important response for Mike would be "If you can't also find something online that says the opposite, you don't know how to use the internet. Maybe you should address that problem first"
For Jay, try curing every pet that comes to the veterinarian and gets prayed over for a year. If 100% of the pets are completely cured that were prayed over, then you might have a convincing argument.
On a similar note, I chuckle when I hear people say "God has blessed us with this beautiful weather." Then when a hurricane hits, they pray to God for a speedy recovery for those afflicted, instead of asking "why was this allowed to happen?" It's downright disgusting rationalization at any cost to keep God in a good light.
"Mike" is the same crank caller that threatened to punch Matt for Jesus. LOL!
no - the punch for Jesus guy could barely string a few words together
Jay's call makes me think of the story that Lawrence Krauss likes to tell about Richard Feynman. He apparently would go around and tell people "you'll never believe what happened to me today!" and when they asked what is was, his response was "absolutely nothing!" See it does seem miraculous when pets or people recover from grave illness. But nobody goes around bragging when they don't recover. Your mind is drawn to connect a reason or purpose where none exists.
I just noticed the timestamps in the desc.
Thanks for that.
Just imagine the possible millions of sick/dying pets prayed for that never got better. Bummer.
Thank you Jen for mentioning "Confirmation Bias."
Caller Jay; Confirmation bias rules his beliefs.
Counting the hits and ignoring the misses.
He struggles with flawed reasoning, but he is willing to learn, so there is some hope.
Right OR wrong, evolution has absolutely nothing to do with whether a giant pink rabbit is sitting at the controls of the cosmos.
agreed but theists think if they can disprove it that magically lends support to their giant sky fairy
"We dont screen against crazy."
Thanks Matt, but I think that is obvious.
Jeezus! That conversation with "Mike" got frustrating FAST lol I was screaming at my screen for a minute! 🤜🤪🤛
Jay is easily impressed
There is no distinction between "Evolution" and "Darwinian Evolution".....There's just evolution.
+Fluffykeith Who fucking cares, Mullet Head?
Vertical Horizon The first caller, Mike, seemed to care. He wanted to pretend there was a distinction between the two so that he could twist things. But I guess you were too busy being a tool to spot that. Sorry if my actually caring when Theists twist stuff offends you somehow.
I agree FluffyKeith i also think we agree that mike just wasnt getting it hey what can i say he sounded like an idiot to me ...do we agree lollll
+Fluffykeith I think there's value in noticing the terms though. Because when someone calls it "Darwinism" or "Darwinian Evolution"...you know they don't understand it, that they don't realize or recognize that there's been a century or so of additional research, refinement and advancement of the initial theory; and that they've attached baggage to it that's probably gonna come up (Darwin's character, quote mining, "no transitional forms", Social Darwinism, Naaaaaazis, etc.).
Vertical Horizon someone sounds salty
Pray in one hand poop in the other and see which hand fills up the fastest.
"but I think we are more than 4% different from chimpanzees."
🤦♂️
Jay has the cure for cancer ... lets find out who this secret sect are and hound them for the method.
This last caller sounds a lot like a future atheist in the final stages of his faith. I enjoyed that call a lot and the responses were kick ass!
Solid entertaining episode
This was a great show. I love the prayer guy, really made me laugh.
Man I wish I could come down there and watch you guys live.
Matt and Jen are usually tight with their logic but the fruit fly angle seemed new to them and they floundered badly on evolution. Jen got part of it right when she noted that there wasn't sustained adaptive pressure but eventually they got argumentative and it became a barrier to understanding on both sides. The Steelman of the caller's argument would have been, "Humans diverged from chimps long ago. In that time we have become a different species and developed genetic, visual, and behavioral changes that are striking. Fruit flies breed much quicker than humans. If evolution were true I would expect to see fruit flies undergo dramatic speciation events just like we did. Why do you think that hasn't happened?"
A tight, TAE-worthy answer would have been, "Great question. Humans diverged from chimps 6M - 8M years ago. At 20 yrs per generation on average, let's call that 300,000 generations at a minimum. Fruit flies have a generation time of maybe 10 days. 300,000 generations at 10 days each would be 8,219 years. Even if a single, continuous fruit fly experiment had been running since the dawn of Darwin's theory, the number of generations that could have occurred is still nowhere close to the amount of opportunity that humans have had to diverge from chimps. It just goes to show that long stretches of geological and evolutionary time are completely unintuitive for us humans. Even so, we can still see what we have good reason to believe is the beginning of that type of species divergence."
Thank you for posting man.
Can I also get a thumbs up for a-unicornism?
Jen is so adorable.
jay got some tough love, he took it well though. fair play
Matt and Jen. Awesome.
Thank you very much, just what I wanted to know :)
Jay was a really interesting caller and made the show really good, hope he'll call in again some day.
Jay is a liar and weak minded fool. He does not want to present his prayer findings to help cure cancer etc as he fear he will be accused of proselyting. Matt called him out and he changed his tune.
thanks for the added explanation, i thought something like that would matter allot.
Cheers for uploading, I cant watch em on Ustream so the sooner the better, this is a week old yeah?
Thanks to everybody for investing time explaining the answer to my question. I've got enough comments now! :P
You're precisely correct. That's the definition of speciation. My point was that if people are trying to define "kinds" of animals (biblical terminology), then evolution doesn't make sense, but when you realise there are no "kinds" of animals and that "species" is only a designation wherat animals within a genus can no longer hybridize, evolution, biology, and the entire world begins to make much more sense.
Keep 'em coming!
The day (wo)mankind breaks out of it's chains from religion, I hope you guys get a good chunk of credit. love the show
It is what I do. I simply put it on and listen. Keep posting please.
great episode
It was cool to hear David Lynch call in.
@52:30-54:00. My exact feelings. I hate it when people can't connect those two simple dots.
As soon as he told me to "shut up for a moment" I would have hung up on his face.
And he would have moved on to the next caller.
wow, TAE cool aid drinkers are as annoying as a hernia
awh jay seemed like a sweetheart :x
It happened to me. 1st I was religious, then I was spiritual, then I finally realized that I no longer believed in illogical myths that contained major parodoxes. In short, I no longer believed in a being that was supposed to be more loving, compassionate, forgiving & better than me but clearly was not.
A few other people on youtube already gave me the answer, but thank you anyway :)
Evangelicals- not understanding evolution is different than refuting evolution
Believers be like: "Evolution? Hmm.... i won't believe that until i see a snake turning into a monkey with my own eyes!" - "Gawd? Creating the world within 6 days with magic, 6000 years ago? A flood covering the whole planet, saving all animal species on a wooden boat made by few men? Now, that sounds legit!"
I don;t believe in unicorns, makes me an a-unicornist.
I liked Jay. He was as honest caller
37:25 : Oh noes, the eye fell off the Flying Spaghetti Monster :P
they always say i put you on hold but its more on silent not hold!
Exactly. Jen hit the nail right away when she asked about the selection pressure. The caller misunderstood, thinking she was asking about the mechanism used to increase the rate of mutation. He clearly doesn't understand how selection pressure guides evolution in the short and long term.
Seems they could have just told the second caller to look up the scientific method, specifically what it would take to achieve statistical significance and the need for a control group. Sounded like he didn't realize that he likely had more work to do and more data to collect. Even just reading about other similar experiments and studying their data sets opens ones eyes as to what it takes to reveal statistical significance.
Dear Mike from Dillon, you've been educated with a banana and an innertube. When you call to discuss evolution, you bring a Crayon to a gunfight. Please call back following your own evolution.
Hi Rebecca, you wrote the above comment 6 years ago. Just curious, in those last 6 years, did you work out that evolution is true? That should have been enough time.
Yeah Matt where do you keep the batteries for that shirt...
One of the big issues that theists who doubt evolution is that they find it difficult to appreciate the incredibly vast time frame over which it occurs plus the vastly different conditions that occurred during various periods of earth’s history. Anatomically modern humans have only existed for a very small fraction of the time that life has existed on earth. Evolution is NOT about changing from one species to another it is more akin to an extremely slow gradual morphing due to changing conditions. Evolution does not have a set goal or target it describes a process whereby a living creature will “adapt” to have a survival advantage in response to changes in the environment. Once again a theist is saying they believe in individual steps but don’t think it is possible to build a staircase to reach a different floor.
Yeah I got the message already. Two persons already explained to me all I wanted to know and another two persons, including the atheist experience, gave me reading/watching material as well. But looking at his page, I seems you cannot see that people commented on my questions already so you are excused:P
You do, however, have faster evolution because, just as you pointed out, you have more generations and more chances for mutation and selection in any given period of time.
I think what Jay was really looking for was information on how to look into his claim further. He has come up with a hypothesis that prayer works for a certain set of people. He seemed to be looking for help designing an experiment to test his hypothesis.
Hey Jay, Miss Piggy called and she said you need to get your ass home!
Just heard a bit more ! , i'm no doctor but i'd guess he's definitely not playing with a full deck !!!
I wish that the after show was shown.
Well I can't exactly elaborate on the subject, but as long as you understand the hierarchy,
such as,from left to right: atom-molecule-macromolecule-organelle-cell-tissue-organ-system-organism, id say youre on the right track.
Interesting. I haven't heard that. Do you have any sources I could look up?
some 40 years ago I attended university courses on genetics and they were talking about fruit flies (Drosophila Melanogaster). What I recall is that the purpose of the study was NOT to study evolution in general but more precisely to understand how the mutated genes were transmitted to the following generations, that is how the alleles frequency is changing. Before the Drosophila in the 19th century Mendel used green peas to study the same subject even before knowing anything about chromosomes.That was 40 years ago and DNA mapping was still in the future, but religious people always confuse the genetic random mutation and the mechanisms of their transmissions with the selection on the reproductive process imposed by the environment that is absolutely not random and that gives the qualifier to the theory of “Evolution by means of natural selection” not by random mutations. It’s important to understand that for evolutionary success, it doesn’t matter if you’re stronger or faster or can fly or swim. What matters is that the new traits allow you to generate more offsprings that carry your genes and are able to survive to transmit them to following generations.
thanks man
well said
Do you have any references for this? Are you claiming that Mitochondrial Eve (about 150,000 years ago) was a different species than modern humans, despite (probably) being our last common ancestor?
~ As an atheist that must live and work among scores of theists, I still in 2019 amazed to find in the USA how many people still automatically assume everyone they meet shares their various god delusions. I made the mistake once of innocently mentioning to someone I thought was a "good" acquaintance that the bible, tora, & quran were interesting books of fairy tables. You would have thought my innocent and honest remark had just been a stab through their heart. I have since learned in business it is often best to keep my knowledge to myself. That is, unless they are using their delusions to justify discrimination in the workplace. Then I go into an active atheist mode, without necessarily identifying myself as such. This remains a "truism" even (unfortunately) in 2019. Cheers, DAVEDJ ~
When the guy still didn't get the fruit fly thing I facepalmed, missed a bit and really felt it :D
That's what i think of the caller...
Jen almost answered this guy, but his question was so poorly formed they couldn't latch on. Mike in Colorado was thinking that fruit flies should show changes over X number of arbitrary years. He's thinking that they will just change or evolve **automatically** on some schedule, he's missing the part about selection pressure driving the changes.
Here's the thing: If fruit flies are successfully inhabiting an ecological niche, and conditions haven't changed radically over the past X millions of years, then they experienced no selection pressure to change radically and would continue as they are with minor adaptions. Some flies might find other strategies and change, but the regular fruit flies would remain.
You should watch some highlights instead. There are numerous excellent 5-10 minute clips out on youtube. I personally watch these since youtube is basically my TV (don't have one lol)
I would really like to see Matt have a conversation with Eric Hovind. That would be such an awesome clip!
Mike: "CAN" happen is not the same as WILL happen.
I like that "loud" shirt.
The first caller was either purposefully dense or on the verge of understanding. 100,000 years is not a very long time in evolution. I think it is about a coin flip whether we would have been able to interbreed with our ancestors 100k years ago. It is better to think about it in terms of 1's and 0's. A four gigabyte file that shuffles its 1's and 0's slowly over time ends up as an increasingly different file. At first they are almost the same, and eventually they are very very different.
Just google how human insuline is produced today. For something that cannot work evolutionary processes work fairly well. And in E-coli bacteria it works even faster than in any fruitfly (which are cuter, I agree)
He's somehow saying that the lab time observing fruit flies should be amplified so 10 years would be 1000 years or something weird like that. Time is time it's not alterable
If you can't imagine a transition from one thing to a second one, split it into two, then think if you can imagine a transition from the first one to the half way point, and from the half way point to the second one. If you still can't, then repeat, and imagine a halfway point between each of these. If you do this enough times, you end up with very small, simple to jump gaps.
A fruit fly breeding experiment in a high oxygen environment and one conducted in a low oxygen environment over 30 years would probably lead to a speciation event.
regarding his "animals aren't susceptible to the placebo effect" and "The animal didn't know they were being prayed for"
There is most probably other factors contributing to the reaction. they respond to stimulus. when they are sick, they are often cared for, massaged, in human company more... all factors in the outcome health of the animal
I love how callers can challenge evolution talking about fruit flies. While at the end of the day, they are defending a book that features a talking snake. Lol
@tommyXBOX360
(2/2)
Some of these forms would evolve tissue differentiation. Evolution would cause cells at the surface of such a colony-organism to react differently to external stimulae. They would develop protective mechanisms, secreting mucus or even forming a primitive epidermis. For some forms, it would prove beneficial to be able to process foodstuffs inside a cavity in the organism, rather than in every cell separately. And right there you have the first primitive organs.
p.s. isn't it just called "evolution"? why call it "darwinian evolution"?
Listen to Reason - Bryan Steeksma
what is name of the song at the beginning of all the shows?
Matt has been repeating "Darwinian evolution" over and over and at 31:10 hes starts asking what the definition is?
I would have said; To which deity are you attributing these miracles of prayer (Wait for answer)... Did it/he/she said that it was him who cured... is there a followed causality to the miracles/healing that can be attributed to the Christian god? buddha? Shiva? etc...
The conflation of years to generations in regards to fruit flies is incorrect, regardless of what the article states (people are wrong sometimes).
Because a fruit fly's life cycle is shorter and they reproduce faster, creating more generations annually doesn't mean that it's the equivalent of multiple human years. Humans and fruit flies evolve differently based on every single aspect of life- internal and external. It's comparing apples and oranges, and furthermore is equivalent to "which weighs more- a ton of rocks or a ton of feathers"- A year is a year, regardless of how many generations a specific species is expected to produce annually.
***** Oh, please, please make my fucking year and explain it to me in detail!!! This is going to be brilliant! I'm going to get some popcorn and wait for you to finish pumping your guns long enough to explain it to me in your super-spiffy-safety-specs!!!!
***** THAT'S IT?!?! That's the best you got? What a disappointment... I now know exactly how your parents, coworkers and intimate partners feel.
Bye now.
+Putnam Finch This Biologist right here got exactly what you were saying.
Fluffykeith I may not be the most eloquent speaker, but I thought I wasn't completely incorrect. Thank you.
I mean… dude thought fruit flies were time machines. Don’t set your hopes too high
I'd ask Jay if he's being encouraged to hand over his lifesavings. This sounds like some sort of scam.
I'm amazed at how tolerant Matt is with the number "evolution" questions that come in, despite the fact that it is completely missing the point of the show.
You were PAWNED by google! Lolz
If prayer works, I would assume that at least war, cancer, murder and rape would not be happening anymore or in the last two cases that at least the culprits would be found every time...
if you want to see morphological changes in fruit flies, then you need to start changing their environment and selective pressures, for some random mutations to keep and become dominant in the population.
Dog breeds and wolves happen to have genes such that small mutations produce relatively quick generational visible (morphological) changes. The changes are typically neutral in selective pressures, so are fairly easily passed on as a new lineage.
There is no speciation, or species. It's our rough model. Life is always changing, not stopping at some "species".
Some organisms are quite happy not to evolve much. Case in point, lichens that grow on rocks. Very little change for a billion years or so.
With "at least one biologist with a big enough understanding of evolution", I meant people who read the comments. It was a mistake of me to ask the atheistexperience as well and I will refrain myself from asking unrelated questions specifically to the atheistexperience again. However, someone adressed two comments to me, as you can see below, that perfectly answered my question. Isn't that a great perk of the internet, that we can save eachother time by answering eachothers questions?
thumbs up for you :D