The Atheist Experience 746 with Matt Dillahunty and Russell Glasser
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- čas přidán 29. 01. 2012
- The Atheist Experience 746 for January 29, 2012 with Matt Dillahunty and Russell Glasser.
Truth, postmodernism and journalism, and also get to explain evolution to a creationist.
SHOW TIME-STAMPS
00:44- Intro & Announcements - Matt Dillahunty
02:16- Russell Glasser on truth
18:53- Artie (atheist): Michael Licona's claim that Jesus' appearance to the apostles is proof of the resurrection
23:36- Athens (atheist): facing discrimination due to atheism
29:16- Daniel: suggests that in order for evolution to be true, abiogenesis had to occur simultaneously all over the earth, intelligent design
You can read more about this episode on the Atheist Experience blog:
► freethoughtblogs.com/axp/2012/...
WHAT IS THE ATHEIST EXPERIENCE?
The Atheist Experience is a weekly cable access television show in Austin, Texas geared at a non-atheist audience. The Atheist Experience is produced by the Atheist Community of Austin.
The Atheist Community of Austin is organized as a nonprofit educational corporation to develop and support the atheist community, to provide opportunities for socializing and friendship, to promote secular viewpoints, to encourage positive atheist culture, to defend the first amendment principle of state-church separation, to oppose discrimination against atheists and to work with other organizations in pursuit of common goals.
We define atheism as the lack of belief in gods. This definition also encompasses what most people call agnosticism.
VISIT THE ACA'S OFFICIAL WEB SITES
► www.atheist-community.org (The Atheist Community of Austin)
► www.atheist-experience.com (The Atheist Experience TV Show)
More shows and video clips can be found in the archive:
► www.atheist-experience.com/arc...
DVDs of the Atheist Experience can be purchased via:
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MUSIC CREDITS
Theme song: "Listen to Reason," written and performed by Bryan Steeksma.
► / bryansteeksma
► www.myspace.com/bryansteeksma
NOTES
TheAtheistExperience is a fan appreciation channel on CZcams.
"The Atheist Experience" is a registered trademark of the ACA.
Creative Commons license: BY, NC, SA
► creativecommons.org/licenses/b...
I love how Daniel first introduced himself as somewhat of an "aficionado" on evolution and then goes on to show he has absolutely no understanding of even the basic concepts behind evolution. Special. Just special.
That line of questions was maddening.
YAY! I was soo happy when I saw this on my new uploads list! I'll comment again after viewing :D
That last call turned out to be a pretty interesting discussion to listen to!
Daniel: I won't take up much of your time!
25minutes later...
Matt: we're out of time
Lol at the end,
"Smile and wave boys, just smile and wave"
@TheAtheistExperience Uploads are quick with respect to aire times lately. Good job.
And the winner for the "caller who overstayed their welcome" award goes to Daniel!
Definitely one of the better episodes of late. I'm glad that there are still some theists ballsy enough to call in.
Daniel - "I really want to know." No, you don't. When Matt gives a clear example of a stupid, asinine design and you cannot agree, you are not at all interested in truth.
This is the only show I've watched regularly on the Internet. I tune in like it's The Sopranos or something. Thanks again for doing this.
LOL the caller and his cable guy
Matt's face around the 42 minute mark is absolutely priceless.
wow that last caller went for 30mins lol. awesome discussion
@jumpingmap well stated, I ve often written about this topic and you ve worded this aspect of it quite astutely, cheers
This Daniel guy reminds me a lot of myself when I was still a believer (even down to the tremble in his voice). Hopefully he continues his questions and doesn't stop learning. He sounds like a potential OTDer.
"Be thankful for your life, and forsake your vain and presumptuous desire for a second one." - Richard dawkins
Wow! He sure picked the right day to call in.
@ricardjorg but he understood the cable thing. :) and he also understood where that was leading. But instead of admitting it was a bad design, he tapdanced.
Just got done watching. Really good talk. The last guy seemed to have a case of 'painting himself into a corner'. He can't get out of the room any more without stepping on some of his beliefs.
@xxFortunadoxx I actually concur with your post .No postmodern thinker I've read ever said "truth is subjective" , indeed I've yet to read a single article by anyone seriously defending this idea. Ironically , the only philosopher of science I recall saying that science is like religion was Paul Feyerabend , who wasn't a postmodernist and later admitted to using hyperbolic language.
I had to pause and take a walk as soon as Daniel said ‘there's a difference between micro-evolution and macro-evolution’. HNNG-
42:01 Matt whispers "wow" in response to the caller. I was thinking the same thing.
As soon as that Dan guy started telling them he was a "physics afficionado", and about how much time he spends in a library I knew he was going to be an apologist. Someone who really studies these things doesnt feel the need to assert it before theyve said anything, they can demonstrate it with their knowledge.
First call 18:55 athiest
Second caller 23:38 atheist
Third caller 29:07
Pretty amazing sign-off. :P
nice closing by matt
You're absolutely right about journalists no longer investigating the truth. When there were just three TV networks they competed to report the truth as accurately as possible, in fact their reputation, and ratings were based on being the best at doing so. With the proliferation of "news" sources, we now have a situation where competition is based on telling the truth that as the most viewers want to hear it told. So instead of news informing public opinion, public opinion informs the news.
"We should all be one-celled organisms, that's the most efficient of all"
Just today I watched a video on the Numberphile channel in which it was explained that larger animals are more efficient when it comes to energy.
fantastic episode, i will , when i have more time, organize a similar group here in san diego. thanks kindly gents, cheers
@Saerain I understand you but Daniel was not even admitting to a bad design when it was clear and easy to understand. If your car has square tires, and someone designed it that way, that would be a bad design for transportation, CAN WE AGREE ON THAT? (Daniel would go... "well, it depends on how effiecient you need it to be.")
love this show so much!!! :D
I wish this show was two hours long and nationally syndicated with commercials and everything.
What a frustrating phone call.
i love this show
"You are wrong sir!'
Amazing, I love matt.
I wish they would change the background, the past 2 years worth of shows have blended together, they feel much more unique with a different background.
LOL i love the callers when they just don't get it
The last caller didn't want to learn. Not from where I'm standing.
Arthur Brisbane? Anyone notice that's the character's name from High Anxiety who thinks he's a Cocker Spaniel? "But cockers are quite bright."
Thank you for saving me some typing time : )
Atheist Experience needs some crazy prog-rock or something to go with their cool intro. Also a font change. Haha.
Love teh show.
@urcorrect I love it- 'absolute uncertainty'
@Spinobreaker It also helps that the time appears in the description box in such a way that doesn't require viewers to expand it to see when the callers start.
Aha, I -thought- he covered this topic before. I went through all of the old episodes years ago.
@Symos more specifically, it's the number of generations between population at time a and population at time b.
Daniel needs to make a trip to Galapagos islands so he can understand changes and why they happen.
lol Matt's "what the fuck, man" face @ 41:59
@theUKatheist I found the whole Daniel call far better than most other shows. They cycled through so much info that the uninformed won't have known, when responding to the things Daniel said. Plus you might be underestimating the creationism problem in the US, it's vital to get into this. I suspect it's more than 40-ish%. I think many religious people who tell pollsters they accept evolution know nothing about it and are thereby vulnerable to creationist arguments.
@apeek7 Speaking of that, I like the 'design' of the bird that pushes is non flying young over the cliff to bounce, bounce, bounce down to the ground where many die and/or are eaten. GOOD PLAN!
daniel starts at 29:20
@ixamraxi "When hunters kill elephants with the longest tusks, the ones with shorter tusks live to propagate the gene for shorter tusks, thus we see a drift away from long tusks. No mutation necessary here."
Although you will eventually exhaust the variation toward the short-tusk direction, requiring mutation to produce more and enable tusks to either get shorter or vanish entirely with further selection.
@ultim4t32 yeah, i was thinking about the cable example, actually. If someone wrapped cable 10 times around your house then into it for cable TV... obviously, that's a dumb design. And the guy wanted to DEBATE that! hahaha he knew, he would soon have to admit he was wrong if he didn't keep talking about efficiency and crap.
that was hilarious. The caller didn't understand that the reasons for your belief determin whether or not your beliefs are resonable.
I used to believe that one should never lie until my mother died and the only way I could get her ashes to scatter them at her request, in a forest she used to enjoy walking in, was to lie to the authorities about what I was going to do with the ashes...
44:43
"Not now, I'm pwning."
@andykjm The issue is that evolution is not about what is better all the time. A lot of the time it is simply about what what slips in as small changes. It might not be beneficial over the long run, but it will survive. Specialisation is an example of this. It is not in an animal's best interest to specialise in eating only one kind of leaf. However, at the time of the change over, there was nothing killing off the ones that did not specialise.
@TheAndyLoraProgram No problem. Go read the paper "Winning by a Neck: Sexual Selection in the Evolution of the Giraffe," (2006) if you want more information. I just found this out recently too, and it's pretty cool how evolution works. There is even a documentary here on YT that talks specifically about the evolution of giraffes, from their long neck, to their horns, to their incredible heart, which is huge compared to humans.
Hey, if I were to call this show, what time (from England) should I be doing that?
Russel Glasser did really well today. In fact, although Matt is brilliant, and I understood what he was getting at, he sort of got away from the main points, which tied up the conversation a bit. Russel mostly answered the main points and answered them well.
That idiot caller was something else! Wow!
Proponents of the so-called intelligent design movement need to take some courses in engineering design. Daniel can't seem to grasp the fact that living systems are indicative of systems of cobbled systems.
As I explained to this guy, Russel's argument was not an argument from ignorance. His assertion is based on his ignorance of what abiogenesis means. It only means the beginning of life from lifeless matter. HE assumed that the only definition of abiogenesis was a naturalistic, scientific one. In fact, the Bible puts forth its' own hypothesis about abiogenesis - God did it. So this was not argument from ignorance it was a syllogism: "If life never started, there would be no life."
@theUKatheist Then they'll probably call back, whilst the guy that they argued with would probably not especially if his argument is treated as rubbish after 5 minutes. Though i see your point and Matt always trys to get to the point as fast as he can to fit the other callers and to stop things like that happening.
How many Daniels does it take to change a lightbulb ? *shivers*
.... and Daniel said wasn't going to attack afterwards... at least he it made it interesting.
@BlckSbthMan I've ofter thought the same about the intro song but now, I can't imagine it without it. It's like when I hear "Three Blind Mice" I'm ready to watch the stooges.
"If it's about efficiency, then we should all be one-celled organisms," If he believes that, then the existence of multi-celled organisms would be a perfect example of why Intelligent Design is wrong.
@TheAtheistExperience Of course. I was not implying that anything decided to make them that way. Just as I would say the bombardier beetle's method of defence is to spray hot fluid out of its abdomen. You could say longer necks are a method of being less susceptible to death. not producing, if we want to get really basic.
By definition, abiogenesis means the beginning of life. It does not state what mechanism is involved. So his statement was nearly correct. He did get sloppy and forgot the panspermia option which might bring life from another world. But, in general, this was not an argument from ignorance. He was saying, (paraphrase) "Of course, a planet on which life never began, there would be no life." The only inaccuracy was forgetting the panspermia option, but essentially the argument remains valid.
@ZoeMarks wow nevermind, semantics mistake on my part lol. Did not mean to use those words. I agree of course
I think objective reality is entirely procedural. Objectival abstraction is practical for description at specific scales, but when viewed closely enough, static values and boundaries do not exist. The only true constant is change, and I say this with absolute uncertainty.
@gatorhighlights4 But I take your point. I recall a discussion with a friend at school who said that "Life happening by accident is a million-to-one chance". Given that there are 300 billion stars in our galaxy, that means by his own statistics there are thousands of inhabited worlds out there. They don't seem to get just how big the universe is, and what a sample size that large does to probabilities.
@SBRslacker00 It's not so much that the extinct species were "bad" designs. It's the fact that once the Earth changed, those species, who were once well adapted to it, could no longer survive on that climate. Other than that, you are right. I was starting to get lost on that topic since I don't know as much about biology as other things
It seems like there are fewer argumentative callers lately. The producers need to save that last guy's number, so he can chime in on a show's topic and start a disagreement whenever needed! LOL
I don't think at 47:50 K2 event is meant, though it sounds like that is what is said. K2 is a mountain. KT is the border between the Cretaceous and the Tertiary. The KT event is the mass extinction that occurred on that border
@SuperMemzzz What I am saying is, Post modernism never disqualifies science. That would be absurd. It's relative approach to truth is about subjective matters, not objective reality. Like history can be subjectively biased etc.
Matt was off his usual best today. I thought Russell handled the call much better, especially when he brought up the point that you cannot argue for a perfect creator and a perfect creation, and at the same time excuse some imperfections. Evolution is a far better explanation in that case. I wish they had pursued that line of argument further.
@xyoop Agreed, imo there should be a time limit on calls that go no where fast.
I actually side with Danial on this one. He was asking a simple question. IF you think design A is better than design B, state your criteria. That's a perfectly valid question and I have no clue why Matt got so worked up about it.
Of course journalists should point out whether or not a statement is true. That's the primary role news sources should be performing in society. They are supposed to keep us informed of the truth and not allow us to be manipulated or lied to. Especially not from their own reports either.
@Utmoon The information I have is from:
"Winning by a Neck: Sexual Selection in the Evolution of the Giraffe," by Simmons, Robert, and Lue Scheepers found in The American Naturalist (1996) vol. 148, pp. 771-786.
@undisputedgreatest In the past they used to vary between a few songs that seemed to promote the “logic and reason” theme of the show, in which case I’m sure they had to obtain the rights to use them. However, in regard to the current opening piece, Brian Steeksma (sp?) specifically wrote that song for their show.
It's "not my cup of tea" either, but it's understandable as to why it is current mainstay. Regardless of the piece chosen there will always be likes and dislikes.
Lol @ 51:50 "eventually everything is going to die, whats the point?"
Evolution doesn't have a goal. It just happens.!! EVOLUTION IS A FACT!!!!
GREAT STUFF MATT!
seriously was my comment deleted or something? was like the 4th message. all i suggested was an list of callers, times they start and topic they cover so we can watch the ones that interest us instead of watching an entire episode or not. some one thought it was a good idea. like a dvd menu with chapters.
@ixamraxi How did the ones with short tusks get there in the first place? Mutation, methinks.
The caller has a point: you need to specify what you think of as good design in order to show that something is poorly designed, like the giraffe neck. Something to think about is what the defining characteristics of a giraffe are. If you take the extremely long nerve as a defining characteristic of a giraffe, then the nerve must be long in a well-designed giraffe. However, it seems to make sense to call a design "better" if it achieves the design goals while using less resources.
@dprfail I was judging them by the integrity and validity of their statement, not by reputation...that doesn't make me ignorant, it makes me socially informed...
As far as evolution, you should have brought up that our retinas are flipped the wrong way, and that is why there is a blind spot, as the nerve comes up in front of the sensory cells.
Postmodernism DOESN'T actually postulate that EVERYTHING is subjective (i.e. that there is NOTHING but subjectivism)--rather what postmodernism asserts is that everything is either wholly subjective, or viewed through a subjective frame. There's no way to be CERTAIN about objective truth, but if one admits existence, one has to assume truth of SOME things (i.e. that SOME things are and SOME things are not--if existence is to be meaningful). Thus, that SOME things are objective is near certain.
@MrCFruitfly Well, first of all he actually is the host of the show, so he's supposed to "keep the show going" so to speak. And also, alot of the arguments that the callers are making don't deserve to be taken seriously or even be treated with respect, for example when the caller starts threatening them with hell when he/she runs out of real arguments. But your point about Matt talking over the co-hosts and cutting them off, that I can agree with sometimes.
@ixamraxi Mutation IS necessary, that is how those elefants had shorter tusks, what you are describing is a proces of selection influenced by human activity as oposed to natural factors, but mutation still happens (at conception of said animal) and is necessary for creating the atributes that are later susceptible to selection, natural or human influenced.
Here's a good example: Elephants have long been hunted for their tusks. Now, many of the same species that once had long tusks, now have short tusks or no tusks. Does the caller think the elephants intentionally decided to stop having long tusks to keep from getting killed for ivory? No. When hunters kill elephants with the longest tusks, the ones with shorter tusks live to propagate the gene for shorter tusks, thus we see a drift away from long tusks. No mutation necessary here.
@pkiverson When Jebus is on your side, you have right to speak as an expert on ANY subject!
@Teoalcola - Variation in genes are not *always* caused by mutation, they can also be caused by things like sexual recombination. The point was not whether or not the variation in genes for tusks 'was' or 'was not' caused by a mutation, the point is that it gene for short tusks *wasn't* caused by a choice, intelligence or hunting, the genes for shorter tusks already existed prior to ivory hunting, but the proliferation and expression of that gene *was* caused by hunting.
Next time a theist asks you where you get your morals from, a one word answer is all you need:
Reciprocity.
I am just 10 mins in watching the show, but I have to say they over generalise what Post Modernism is. It is a concept that is often misunderstood. It allows many ideas to be heard but doesn't necessarily give equal amount of power to each of them. It still works from a framework of ideas. But it just acknowledges the human experience. It is more about the cultural diversity of ideas than the unknowable truth.
I never discuss evolution over tea or any other beverage. As an atheist I actually find little need in my life to discuss scientific theory. I am not a scientist, just and atheist.
@TUSAnathema Another way to see it, which isnt too significant to us, but is real.
Length can be of such importance that it affects, I forget what they are called, but you may know the story of people who stock trade and put their servers on the same street as the stock exchange to beat all other people to the bets by milliseconds and affect prices in their favor.
Every milisecond counts for them, so distance counts because light is fast, it doesnt teleport.
@L00NGB00W Indeed; although it is technically possible that you won't pick it at all. It's just unlikely.