What Moneyball LEFT OUT: The Oakland A's Big Three | A Baseball Story
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- čas přidán 13. 05. 2024
- The movie Moneyball is fantastic! But one thing ALWAYS rubbed me the wrong way about it. Where the heck were Hudson, Zito, and Mulder?? It's time to right that ship!
But what if Moneyball wasn't even the biggest story from that team during that time? By the time the 2002 "Moneyball Season" was in swing, the A's Big Three were already in the middle of a historic 3 season run... From 2001-2003, Tim Hudson, Barry Zito, and Mark Mulder did something that we hadn't seen since the late 90s Braves with Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz... 3 pitchers all performing at an elite level, for the same team, at the same exact time...
But how do the A's Big Three stack up against those 90s Braves? Well lucky for you, I found a great 3 year stretch that we can compare. And ya know what? You might just be surprised at how well the Big Three stacks up to these Hall of Famers!
Today we dive into what MONEYBALL DIDN'T TELL YOU. That the 2002 Oakland A's actually were led by not one, not two, but THREE Cy Young caliber pictures. And if it wasn't for their greatness, Moneyball might not even exist...
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#MLB #OaklandAthletics #Moneyball #Hudson #Zito #Mulder #AtlantaBraves #90sBaseball #Maddux #Glavine #Smoltz #History #BaseballStats #Subscribe #Like
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A rag tag group of players with one of best top of the rotations in baseball history, an MVP Miguel Tejada and a Star 3rd Baseman in Eric Chavez.
also, future world series MVP jermaine dye
The key to moneyball was 3 pitchers and 2 position players all on their first contracts playing at all star level…all at the same time
Giants fan embedded in the southeast since the 90s and I can say that, yeah, for a while there I was just as jealous of the A’s 3 aces as I was of the Braves through most of the 90s. Maddux was the original “freak” year after year. Love to watch now, hated to watch him back then 😂
I screamed this in my head while reading Moneyball. How was this never addressed? It’s like how Peyton Manning is talked about not having a defense or running game.
They are in the book.
As a Cubs fan, this was how Wood, Prior, and Zambrano were supposed to pan out,😢
This is interesting. I tried out for the Detroit Tigers, as a free agent back in 2000 and 2007 and played pro independent baseball for two seasons. Fun times.
Also, another scene that really bothers me (more from the book than the movie) is the entire Jeremy Brown draft. So, this was a player that Bean and the Scouting department were heavily divided on. It was a classic case of old school vs new school evaluation. Brown didn't fit the mold and look of a traditional major league player, but put up huge number for the Crimson Tide in college. The book makes it seem as if no other team is even going to look at this kid until the 6th round, and Beane insists on taking him at 35 overall. I still can't believe the stupidity of the move. I get the Beane and DePodesta believed in the kid, but if you know that no one else is taking him until the sixth, the most you spend is a 4th round selection on him. That is just basic draft logic 101.
What do you do if someone takes him before the 4th?
@@peteyprimo7173 You move on with your life. The odds of a late round draft pick making good are astronomically low. But, if you are still convinced in the kid, odds are you can trade for him two years later for a utility infielder. The biggest mistake teams make in the draft is becoming convinced that they are somehow smarter than the rest of the league combined. If the rest of the league has a 6th round draft grade on a prospect and you have a 1st round grade on him.....guess what, you are probably the one that is wrong. And such was the case with Jeremy Brown who never had more than a cup of coffee at the MLB level.
I remember seeing a shot of the Zito character in the clubhouse, and Beane told one of the other 2 to trust one of his pitches in a quick throwaway line. That was it.
It's not even just the trio of Zito, Mulder, and Hudson that was amazing. The Athletics in the stretch between 1999 to about the early 2010s were a pitcher's factory. Whether it was drafting and developing, flipping established stars for prospects that were able to reach their potential, augmenting in free agency, or even reclamation projects, pitching is what made the A's a powerhouse. Some of which was admittedly a byproduct of Moneyball, but not all of it.
I remember another youtuber talking about the film's choice to make Chris Hatteberg one of the central focuses, despite the fact that sabermetrics would generally place him as the 6th most valuable player on the team for the 2002 season. The idea being that the central theme of the movie was the ability of a small market team to build the depth needed to compete. Due the the system of the draft and player control, even small market teams will have a couple of star level players. But, it is extremally challenging to develop a lot of star leveled players at the same time while they all remain cost controlled. So, the better large market teams are not only able to retain their best players longer, but can afford to spend big money in free agency to supplement their best players with a solid supporting cast. So, the focus is on players like Hatteberg and David Justice, to show how the A's were able to build that supporting cast of complimentary players to their home grown stars without breaking the bank. But yeah, it kind of feels like a cheap shot that the core of Hudson, Mulder, Zito, Chavez, and Tehada are left out of the limelight because they don't fit into the narrative of the book or the movie.
Tim Hudson was actually drafted twice -- Originally in the 35th round of the 1994 draft, then again in the 6th round of the 1997 draft, both times (ironically) by Oakland.
Also, it may not have been with the A’s, but I’m glad all three guys were still able to win World Series’ rings.
As expected Michael Lewis missed the forest for the trees
Mulder, Hudson, Zito, Tejada, and Chavez were the first five names I thought of when thinking about the 2002 team and none of them are given more than a passing mention
Isringhausen was a big loss and the emergence of Billy Koch helped shore up that bullpen
The book probably should have focused on these 6 players
"Good team has good players," is not exactly the stuff of legendary narrative, though, is it?
@@aeschafer1 That and the fact that the Angels and Twins were using the exact same tactics in the AL, just with more success
Yup- one of my favorite quotes from around then: “Does Billy Beane think he invented on base percentage?”
I f’n loved these 3 when I was in high school, I was such a huge A’s fans. They had such awesome players on the team. They even had a makeshift version of the big 3 in the late 2000’s with Dan Haren, Justin Doucherer, and Rich Harden. It sucks 2 out of 3 had injuries a plenty and Haren sadly was only on the team 4 years. I miss our amazing overlooked players like Sean Doolittle, Grant Balfour (he may not count), Sonny Gray, Ryan Sweeney, and Craig Breslow among many others. They don’t even sign the aging legend in their last year for one last hurrah…Frank Thomas, Mike Piazza, Nomar…I don’t know it’s really upsetting we went from really really good put together teams in the 2010’s until 2019 and the nail in the coffin a few years ago with Sean Murphy.
Remember when the song "Celebration" by Kool and the Gang played every time the A's won at home? That's epic. I have not been to a game in a while, so I don't know if the A's still do that
You think Steve Avery is always like "and me"
I've BEEN SHOUTING THIS EXACT SENTIMENT SINCE THE FILM CAME OUT!!!!
As I recall, in the book, Lewis and Beane didn't want to focus on the pitchers because the people dismissing sabermetrics were saying "Any team would be as succesful with three aces in their rotation" and ignoring the need to build a roster capable of scoring runs.
Sitting through this whole video thinkin, "Don't forget about Mark Mulder!"
People also forget about Rich Harden from those teams too.
They left out that Art Howe was 6'4" and about 200 pounds. Billy Beane and Howe worked well together and Beane never disrespected Howe. Howe Left because the Owners would not give him a raise. Pena was traded with Franklyn German to get Ted Lilly which really gave the A's a legit #4 starter. Also Pena was traded because of the development of Scott Hatteberg.
Something else the movie got wrong... Jeremy Giambi. He was already on the team. That famous play where Jeter backhanded a relay to the plate against the A's in the 2001 playoffs? Giambi was the runner tagged out.
Zitos curve ball would start out hitting the moon in the sky then drop like rock and end up in my fathers grave 6 feet under the ground. That 12 to 6 drop was nasty. Even in the video game “MVP Baseball” it was nasty but still not as nasty as it was in real life
Crazy to think Rich Harden had better shit than all of them and he was their #4. It was ‘03, but thats an outrageous rotation.
Been saying this for years and finally someone covers it. That’s awesome you recognize this. They had a great pitching staff, not good but great
Miguel tejada, jermaine dye and Eric Chavez also absent from the film
For the record... while the book also only mentions them briefly, the big 3 are a great example of the most damning fabrication of the movie... that Moneyball started in 2002. All 3 of those players were acquired using the same analytical philosophies as the players discussed in the book and movie (the ones discussed are just the ones targeted in 2002, the year Lewis shadowed Beane to write the book)
That doesn't mean Lewis wasn't wrong for not giving Hudson, Zito, Mulder... (and you should throw Tejada in there too cause boy he gets pretty disrespected in the book) their flowers, but it's my COUNTER pet peeve that people use those names to critique Moneyball, not realizing Beane also acquired those players the exact same way.
Thanks so much for this @TheApologist6717, you’re absolutely right!
@@GoodVibesBaseball Appreciate the compliment, and right back at you! This channel has a lot of potential.
While I like the premise, I must say that in 2002 Tim Hudson, Mark Mulder and Barry Zito did not combine to win 102 games. That's why the story was focused on how to replace the missing battery of Giambi and Damon, etc. Yes the big three are all time performers both individually and as a rotation, but the focus was the remarkable play of those who were overlooked and counted out. I was a season ticket holder for those years and on a day in and day out basis, it was more than just pitching that allowed the A's to achieve what they did.
Yeah, it was. Their pitching was ranked #1 and their offense was 8th out of 15 in the AL.
I’m assuming they meant those 3 started 102 games.
The A's were 70-29 in games started by the 3 aces. They were 33-30 in the games started by other pitchers.
Seeing 67 subscribers from content this good is insane. Future stud in the CZcams baseball game. Keep up the work
These three weren’t mentioned on purpose. As a published author, the goal is to convey your thoughts into a narrative you find interesting, and do so in such a way to intrigue a reader of a forecasted audience.
Michael Lewis is one of the best at this; be it sports, finance, game theory (across multiple disciplines, etc)
The fact he was able to do it w/o even addressing the Big 3 is amazing. A. He KNOWS baseball fans like us will be screaming about this-tho he has us already, but now passionately. How to attract the non-baseball fan w/o betraying its premise is the magic-that he’s done.. over & over. Add in that he’s great at painting a mental picture, as all writers aspire to, is why he’s a repeated ‘bestseller of #1 Bestsellers”; the elite of the elite as it were
its so sad to me the current state of Oakland's baseball team and the fact that it wont be in Oakland much longer. the Athletics are one of the most storied and iconic franchises in american sports and they have that image and truth of having homegrown talent and winning world series championships with the talent that they drafted and being a sort of "everymans" team that have brought up so many iconic players. Rickey Henderson lives in pretty much everyones mind rent free.
They were in two cities before they were in Oakland. That city has more then proven it doesnt deserve a team
What’s wild is that they’re not mentioned much in the book, either.
What those 3 A's pitchers did during that span is more impressive then what the Braves top 3 did when you consider that they did it in the American league with the DH.
How quickly we forget…
Nope
@@Chipper_slabs you probably a braves fan.
@@bryankelly3647 forget what? The tye American league was the only league with the DH or how the American league had the better offense back then?
Man, as a Rangers fan I "hated" this A's team. They slaughtered us. Mulder, Hudson and Zito were rockstars. I made sure I had the tickets for every game against the A's. Zito curve ball was everything. Mulder and that "yeah I just did that" walk of the mound and Hudson looked like the brother who had to keep the other two in line and fix it whenever they messed up. Eric Chavez, Jermaine Dye, Miguel Tejada, Eric Byrnes, Mark Ellis, Mike Venafro, Billy Koch. I loved them and I hated them as a Rangers fan.. I cant express how glad I am I got to watch the greatness live. If it wasnt for injuries who knows how grest they would have been. When they split it just wasnt the same anymore.
Which injuries? In 2004? They weren't beating the Yanks or Sox that year even without them.
Great video man! Really enjoyed learning about Zito, Hudson, and Mulder,
Great video and great channel. Keep up the good work!
I remember playing backyard baseball 2003 with Tim Hudson. I was surprised he wasn’t in the movie
The first time I saw moneyball the movie I was shaking head wondering why these pitchers were never mentioned, or the players who had been drafted and come up over the previous 3 years. Their minor league system was barely mentioned in the movie, even though it was very very solid for years leading up to 2002.
2001-2003, best pitching since.... 2 years prior. Lol
Ya moneyball was purely about offensive stats, that's why they didn't put the focus on particular players, but you'd think you'd at least see em throughout the film, I remember seeing Hudson and tejada once each but I don't remember seeing zito or Mulder at all, I always thought it was odd that they put more focus on hatteberg rather than tejada or the pitching, but this story comes from the perspective of billy himself and hatteberg was the ideal guy at the plate in his mind, he was the biggest steal of a pickup that billy felt he got...and he hit the big game winner to save the streak so in hia s mind hatte paid off in a big way, not just because he was cheap, but because he always had a solid obp and was able to switch to first base despite the rest of the teams scouts and coaches doubts, it was about the fact that with their pitching already in place he managed to make a contender out of a bunch of guys that nobody wanted...but they could get on base, and at the end of the day they did very well for a bunch of nobody's and has beens
Really good video. Excellent analysis. Seriously though. If 6 complete games
makes you feel like your arm is gonna fall off, you should check out pitchers
numbers pre 1990's when pitch counts weren't much of a thing. Starters were
generally left in till they got tired or just had bad stuff. Great starters like
Seaver, Ryan, Clemens, etc. would usually complete about 50-75% of their starts.
Anyway, just raving. Moneyball was still a great movie too.
You ain’t wrong!!! “Look good, feel good, play good”..Jason Giambi.
Tim Hudson was the main reason the Athletics lost to the Twins in the 2002 ALDS. He lost games 1 and 4. Zito only pitched one game and Mulder went 1-1 losing a close one in game 5. I point to game 1 as the one they shouldn't have lost. The A's were winning and blew the lead. That series should have been a 3 game sweep for the Athletics.
Hudson didn’t lose game 1. Lilly did. It was 5-4 when Hudson left and Lilly proceeded to give up 2 singles, a double, a walk which gave up the lead.
Loved Huddy as a Brave
Mulder Hudson zito.... and that "bum" 4th starter Cory Lidle pitched 867 innings combined for the A's..... the entire A's staff pitched 1,452 innings. Meaning their 1-4 SPs accounted for about 60% of the innings pitched by the team. They used 17 pitchers that year. So the other 13 accounted for 40% of the innings. Meaning you could flip on an A's game at any point and there were better than 50-50 odds Mulder, Hudson, Zito or Lidle was pitching.
Just counting the big 3... they compiled 675 IP.... 46.5% of their entire team's IP. So almost a 50-50 shot at flipping on an A's game and one of those 3 would be pitching at any time. Incredible. IMO not so much just because of how good they were, but because they all remained healthy enough to start at least 30 games. Even Lidle started 30 games. To have your front 4 in the rotation to pretty much remain healthy all season is rare. Damn near impossible in today's fragile, candy ass league. How times have changed in such a short time.
Thank you finally someone made this video about money ball lol the 3 headed monster
Leaving out Eric Chavez, miguel Tejada and Jermaine dye is criminal.
I think they mentioned Chavez briefly when the movie was showing the happenings around trade deadline.
Exactly. Teams now pay multiple hundreds of millions for top end starters but they are in the outs. What a top 5 shortstop like tejada , Chavez only a fleeting reference and T long. More relievers than Bradford did theirs
That was an obvious omission when I saw that movie.
This isn’t even counting Rich Harden who developed into a stud when he could stay healthy
Finally someone else said it!!!! I had always said this when the movie came up in discussion. It’s a great film and I remember that year.
Yet the big 3 weren’t mentioned at all.
Since the late 90's Braves?
You mean 2 years prior? Yeah, such a long time.
My favorite Yankee I've never seen is Reggie Jackson
My favorite CZcams videos are about Rickey Henderson
I use to think Mark McGuire was the coolest guy on the planet as a kid.
My favorite non Yankee growing up was Jason Giambi.
My favorite stadium to play at in games was the oakland coliseum.
My favorite jersey hands down is the As Jersey.
I'm a Yankees fan for life, but I love the Oakland As. It's a travesty if they leave. There's no team I ever rooted for outside the Yankees but the As.
Great video.
I totally forgot about Tim Hudson. I use to think Barry Zito was the best pitcher on the planet mid 2000s not named Pedro... n in all honesty I don't even remember mark at all.
Its funny you mention the comparisons of the As n ATL cus Zito like Maddux never carried Heat. None of them did really
The movie craps all over the A’s scouting department who found all these guys
The reason they left these guys out of the movie is because they kinda weren't relevant to the story. The point of the movie was pretty much spelled out to us at the beginning: How do you replace Giambi, Damon, and Isringhausen with no money? That was the whole point.
That said, I also would've liked at least a passing mention of the stars the A's had in the movie, too. If anything just to remind people that this was already a good team. They just used a new form of analytics to fill the gaps. :)
Isringhausen only pitched 40 innings. Giambi and Damon were not replaced. The A's scored 84 less runs in 2002 compared to 2001. Their starting pitching carried them in 2002. Off the top of my head I'd say both Pat Gillick and Andrew Friedman are way better at running an MLB team than Beane.
We need to get this kid’s videos out there I’m sending your channel to a friend of mine at Jomboy Media
Jordan montgomery took mulders whole windup
I remember when the Mariners went into a game swinging at Hudson's first pitches, because opponents on-base percentage was highest against his first pitch. Complete game win in 70-sonething pitches. He was frustrating to play against.
17:30 yeah i think those 9 complete games and the 6 or so the year before along with 230+ innings a year omg thats actually ridiculous
Great video. Makes it even greater if you can set up a good recording environment.
There is mention of Zito and how he couldn’t throw a fastball harder than 88 or so in the book, but Hudson and Mulder are not in either the book or the movie
If you watch closely there’s a hidden memeing to this video
Why don’t you just tell us what it is Notredamus?
Good call w the missing 3
They also had Miguel Tejada
The 2019 A’s was Moneyball 2.0.
Their games felt like 45 minutes hahha. They were not out there to mess around. Quick work win or lose.
Great points, they sure did.
Did Miguel Tejada and Jermaine Dye get any mentions at all?
You see them in some of the game footage… 😅
Also left out mvp miguel tejada, all star eric chavez and 90+ rbi jermaine dye
They also left out Eric Chavez and MVP Miguel Tejada.
I'll never forget my Twins taking out the A's in the playoffs. It was my 21st b-day... and I got horribly drunk that night in celebration. Sorry A's fans.
I figured it out. Have you ever seen Sandlot 2? One with the Rocket kid? Well there is a character in that movie that collects dog tags or collars or whatever. This guy’s commentary sounds exactly like that kid. Look it up and laugh to yourself.
Dont forget Mark Mulder........
I understood that reference!
Love this team and those guys....however....zero advancement past the first round. Built for the regular season, just not the playoffs.
Yeah, they also left out their entire lineup lol
My favorite part of moneyball was when the Twins ended the A's winning streak and season
Just like Cleveland. Draft well. Then sell them off when it’s time to pay.
What they left out… they didn’t win the World Series. No team that played “money ball” has ever won a World Series. They’ve came close and yeah you can be positive about making the playoffs but the goal for every team is to win the World Series.
Plus Billy Bean traded away Carlos Peña for 3 guys that never really made it to the show.
Just my 2 cents
From: a guy who roots for a team that plays money ball and consistently fails
11:45 - There was a guy named Johnson in the other league who was unarguably better than anyone else that year.
Haha I was very tempted to include Randy! I was hoping Zito’s numbers were better, but no dice! Long live Randy!
@@GoodVibesBaseball Zito wasn't even the best pitcher in the AL. He only won the Cy Young because of his high win total, but Pedro Martinez had better overall numbers. Pedro had a 202 ERA+ vs. just 158 for Zito, over 50 more strikeouts, basically half as many walks, and a significantly better WHIP. If that Cy Young vote happened today with modern voters, Pedro wins easily.
Infamous means famous for being Bad; e.g., "a date which will live in infamy" (Pearl Harbor attack). Misuse of this word is now rampant due to the CZcams feedback loop, wherein mistakes are parroted and propagated. Apparently, misusers seem to think the "in-" prefix functions simply as an intensifier to "famous," as in the word "invaluable," which essentially intensifies "valuable."
Infamous has different uses. It has been used sarcastically long before the internet
20 wins isn’t ridiculous
nice video, but throw your memes in the corner. We miss the play which I'd rather see. The memes are great and spot on, but shouldnt take over the full video. Good work!
Friedman > Beane and it is not close.
You mean the Vegas A's
Don’t forget it’s easier to pitch in the NL as the AL has far better hitting plus the designated hitter. So of course AL pitchers are going to have worse stats.
The Atlanta Braves and LA Dodgers kindly disagree
@@Wisconsin654 I sorry you disagree with facts. I’m not talking individual teams, I talking overall the AL has better hitting.
@@SalemK-ty4tithe Atlanta Dave’s and LA Bodgers would disagree
And a lights out bullpen. Great players. Analytics piggybacking off of this film to create high paying jobs on every team has hurt the game. Billy Bean has never won. Anything.
You're putting too much stock in W-L records.
20 years later yeah, so many of a team’s wins and losses have migrated to the bullpen but particularly in the high scoring AL, pitching beyond the fifth inning into the sixth or seventh until you can come back against the other teams worn down starter or bullpen was how you racked up a lot of wins
Where are Zito, Mulder, and Hudson you ask? Simple analytic people like to pretend hitting is the only thing that matters in baseball
I know the A’s pitching was first in the AL in 2002 and only 8th in runs.
if the a's owner was cheap what does that make the pirates owner he is probably the cheapest owner in the history of baseball the a's play money ball the pirates play save money ball.
Bob Nutting is a blight to baseball.
@@GreenHornet553 your 100 percent right on that he is a disgrace he is cheap and doesn't care about the fans.
Your premise is correct but man you got your facts wrong. The A's didn't even have the best pitching staff in baseball from 01-03. The Hudson, Zito, and Mulder trio was good for an ERA 3.18, WHIP 1.17, ERA+ 138, FIP 3.60, and 5.7 WAR averaged out over the 3. That's pretty good, like top 20-30 all-time. The D-Back with Shilling, Johnson and Miguel Bautista were better almost across the board with an ERA 3.26, WHIP 1.14, ERA+ 147, FIP 3.14, and 6.1 WAR averaged out between the 3. Granted Johnson and Schilling did most of the heavy lifting but Bautista still was a solid #3 guy for that rotation. The 1995-1997 Braves were leaps and bounds better than the A's rotation with an 2.74 ERA, 1.09 WHIP, 162 ERA+, 3.03 FIP, and 6.3 WAR averaged between Maddux Smoltz and Glavine. Comparing the 01-03 A's to a staff with 3 Hall of Famers isn't even close to a fair comparison. The A's are one of my favorite teams of all time, and Moneyball is a supercool story that neglects the fact that the A's had 4 or 5 really exceptional starting pitchers, but you can't go comparing them to all time great rotations.
Good topic, but man the way this guy throws his voice around is infuriating.