Attack is the Most Under-rated Stat in Rise of Kingdoms
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- čas přidán 6. 07. 2024
- One of the most common pieces of advice in RoK is that attack is the worst stat and health is the best. In this video, I talk about times and situations where that advice is just wrong.
0:00 Intro
1:12 Stack Attack??
3:36 Why Health is Generally Good
7:33 AoE Skill Damage
10:53 New Commanders
Thanks and credit Legends Studio for the amazing thumbnail, overlay, and video editing. You can follow them on Instagram: / ctlsucsif. .
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They all laugh at me when i picked Spain (highest base attack), and Attack legendary gear, for my nevsky ysg. defense and health doesnot matter of aoe. good to see someone who gets it
another point is there are alot of attacks in soc tech, and if you have high base attack, you will benefit most. lastly, attack for damage is one attribute, while health and defense share the damage mitigation. lastly, as f2p, dont do what whales do. pick a fast aoe march and focus on attack. if you got targetted/swarmed by whales, run. what ever defense you have wont matter. atleast with attack, you can do more damage to whales without damage to you using aoe skill. in short, in situations when you need health and defense, they dont matter cause you will run/ get wrecked anyway. they are stats YOU DONT WANT TO UTILIZE/ PUT TO USE.
If you are a field fighter then attack is extremely important, but if you are a rally leader and garrisson captain then you must stack defensive and health buff to your march.
Yes, I should have been clearer in the video. For rally and garrison, it is all about taking good 1v1 trades (or trades on the swarm), in which case attack has level value.
Most underrated youtuber keep it up!
This very interesting video. I remember being told early on that balance of stats was very important. Then when SOC came and the crystal tech gave so much attack it's only been stack defense and health. I think you make some interesting points. Attack certainly has value. I think this video demonstrates that going from the blue infantry shield with health to the purple or orange weapon for attack is an upgrade when it doesn't feel like it is by removing health.. However this doesn't change my thought process on current best in slots. It does however, make me feel more justified in my crystal tech purchases :) Thanks for the video.
Indeed. The Sakura Fubuki gets a bad reputation because the Gatekeeper's shield does a bit better in 1v1 trades and costs less materials. However, with Guan/Scipio, one should probably prefer the Sakura Fubuki in murderball / field fight situations. For rallies, the 1v1 scenarios are better.
very interesting.. subscribed.
On paper, we can also flip the AoE skill damage argument around: If your opponent is running all these meta skill damage marches, does buffing up your DEF or HP, especially if one is much lower than the other, give as much value? For every AoE you eat, you gain value.
Well, it might help you take less damage / better trades, but it won't really help you clear the field faster. To be fair, I gave up on caring about good trades 2 or 3 KVKs ago...I only care about clearing the field as fast as possible.
To be fair that is fair in terms of strategy but thats assuming 1 we are in an outrageously well organized kingdom and 2 you are a whale or a f2p whale as in you spend so much time grinding you almost have whale value because good trades do matter a lot for rss balance specially in non SoC KvK where it's a little more personal smaller and quicker fights so I'd argue for 95% of players to ignore the attack thing but indeed whales will absolutly clear a field if they have more attack still having good trades so that's a cool way for high spenders to look at it. Loved the video nice thinking about best strategies in the game.
@@PsychOutROK Fair point. I won't argue against your boots on the ground experience in kvks, but you're saying that it's more productive to focus on clearing enemies asap with high ATK rather than focus on not getting cleared yourself with DEF and HP?
@@concertoinx9070 With AoE, yes. And again, only in certain situations with certain commander / gear combinations. This is not a general "you should go all in on attack" recommendation. That would be disastrous. The point is that with certain commander / gear (iconics) combinations (by the way, I haven't even mentioned HA which includes bastions boosting health/def) and with AoE taken into account, it is mathematically correct to boost attack rather than defense/health. But too often (a) no one does the math and just adds defense / health or (b) when the math is done, it doesn't take AoE into account.
attack is SUPER underrated for the field. it lets you clear the field, which is the entire point, so much faster than if youre all running around with blue shiled s on your inf marches that do nothing to help you kill the enemy.
Psychout hello mate first time seeing your channel, i subbed for your effort. I wrote a very very long reply to nerd out on if you want 😂
Regarding the topic, anyone using ysg with archers and nerdy enough to care is already aware of attack value in aoe scensrio. It does bring a lot of complications to the table. The biggest being the need of more than 1 piece of equippment if health/def pieces exist for that slot, For non-aoe scenarios.
All of that is easily tested on barbarians with ysg. With a primary who has no damage bonuses or procs. Like richard+ysg using archers to avoid infantry bonuses taking effect and to activate ysg bonuses.
If you are reading this far, here is a fun and long idea that is despised by the community and yet effective from my experience.. I play honda primary for open field especially aoe scenarios. Often if not always, people think i am a noob for it.... until i destroy them.
So honda full skill with at least 3 points in feral and ysg/joan prime second will have at least 9 second rage cycle "also includes a horn, don't forget both joan and ysg have rage engines" For reference xy/nevsky seems to have 7-8 rage cycles, joan nevsky seems to have 8-9 secs rage cycles and that's the rage cycle that a march normally gets because many if not most marches don't go to feral nature. So there is 0-1 sec between honda's rage cycle and the average march on the field after all rage engines are added. Now that brings the question, which march is the highest aoe march IN THE GAME.
And the answer to that is:
3 - 4 stats matter and the more of those stats the better this commander is. Those stats are
1- damage factor
2- damage bonuses "all damage/skill damage/attack
3- skill cycle
4-troop count
5- We can say 5 is pure damage boost procs like ysg second skill.
Honda, joan and ysg are by FAAAR the winners in this depends on the previous points. Joan purely for her damage factor total of 3-4k "because if she hits once every 10 seconds she does 4k factor per cycle on average, if the cycle is less than 10 then her damage factor alternate between 4k and 2k which is average of 3"
And ysg is one of the 3 kings ONLY IF USED WITH ARCHERS. His second skill if 100 attack is as good as a ring of doom IMO.
That would bring the pairings. And because ysg needs archers and joan needs cavs. The only best possible aoe march in the game can only be with honda primary and one of the other two secondery.
Finally:
Why does honda primary do a lot if damage for me? As starter i managed to always get a 9 sec cycle.
1- the damage per per second for honda at 9 secs cycle is 278. While scipio/ guan for reference are at"2k factor" 250 dps. BUT honda has 30-60 skill damage and 40 attack which is insanely important for aoe purposes. And why he is leaps and bounds above the 2k factor chads.
2- honda's skill hit box is stupidly huge, IT CANNOT MISS.
3- again skill damage is there, attack is there and very important troop capacity is also there and even all damage from ring of doom is there.
All The four stats that multiply each other.
4- because the 2 other aoe monsters can't be used together for maximum potential as ysg needs archers and joan kinda needs cavs. Honda is the only thing left that can be primary and use either troops type.
Now without considering ysg 3rd skill i calculated the values of each combo in the game.
Highest hitting AOE combo is honda+ joan prime "11 second cycles" and honda joan prime "9 sec cycles". Both have almost same total dps on max targets. 9 sec cycle is still better cuz leadership tree sucks anyway.
Honda ysg is 3rd combo in dps if we don't count ysg 4th or second skill. So it could allow honda ysg to beat honda joan.
Now in theory there is an un-usable combo that beats all of that but enemy will not allow it to live in the field. Which is ysg primary +joan second with archer+skill tree. Reason is skill + archer tree with ysg 4th and second skill are the highest possible damage boost in the game for skill damage and joan would love that.
sadly ysg in the field won't live, ever.
I have to admit...I kind of like it.
Very interesting. Its "common knowledge" that Honda is not possible to use as a primary. To bad I already using my YSG with Rameses and I only have Joan prime summoned. As it is now Im saving for next upcoming cav commander otherwise I would of done Honda instead.
No one pretty much running Honda in high end battle, I send you back home within 12 seconds you won’t be able cast one single skill, glass canon. 7 marches around you, 1 round of skill, you are gone. Honda is too fragile.
@@xiwang4275 Yeah, it is a problem for Honda primary. Any march that is targeted by a max tech player with meta-gear and marches will be deleted in 1 skill cycle. Honda frequently doesn't get to cycle at all if he is primary. Perhaps in non-imperium KVKs it's different, but in the kinds of kvks I'm in, Honda won't fire many skills as primary.
Holy! You are godlike in this game!😳
About attack contributing to skill damage, 200 damage factor is what the damage factor in one attack + one counter attack. So In a 1 vs 1 fight the total white damage would be worth 400 damage factor. You can easily calculate the skill damage (without any skill damage bonus) of a march from "white" damage.
And so if you increase the attack, you will increase the normal attack damage, and thereby increase skill damage
Correct!
Hey amazing video, just have a question about attack vs skill damage tho. Does say a 5% increase in attack out weigh the benefits of 3% skill damage? What about 7% increase in attack vs 3% skill damage? Guess what I’m asking is what’s the break even point in this scenario? Im just asking so I dont focus on the wrong gear is all 😅
Good question. Actually, Chisgule made a video about this some time ago, showing that skill damage boost city skins often have less value than attack boost city skins because attack boosts normal attacks and skill damage. Now, you will do more skill damage with the skill damage boost, because that gets factored in at the end of the calculation, but often you can find a 5% attack boost is just better than a 5% skill damage boost. But as skill damage has increased, the gap is narrowing. Finally, the answer to your question is that it really depends on the specific marches, their attack, their damage factor, and other boosts.
Your health would never be higher than defense
1. Your T5 march has a lot higher base def anyways usually it is 400+ and HP is only 300+ means health is never too much.
2. The result of the battle can’t be simply decided by the formula, if you attack is so high, you would have a lower def and HP means your troops count will drop faster, when your troop is dropping faster, in the long run, your will have less troop count than your enemy which result in you having a bad trade. The formula is only used to calculate one turn, it can’t not calculate a battle which has a lot of turns.
3. Many many tests have been done already to compare ATK Def and HP, I find your video can confuse people. Even for commander have high skill dmg, if you can’t survive, how would you deal dmg ? My 7 marches takes 1 round of skill to smash any combo of enemy march, doesn’t matter if I add a bit more attack and a bit less attack, it is still 1 round of skills. If I add attack to my marches it is simply overflow. Equipment need to be considered in real situation, not some sort of assumptions and formulas. Especially for a lot of F2P players if they use attack equipment, their Nevsky maybe can only survive 4 - 5 skills out of my 7 marches, where if they use HP equipment they can survive longer and give them a chance to cast a skill and etc. very misleading mate
And don’t forget the troop count is the biggest multiplier in the formula, your attack def hp is like a few hundred, and troop count is 200 300 400K, if this multiplier drops faster than enemy, doesn’t matter the other 3 values, you will be smashed, so the basics goal is to make your troop count higher than enemy, isn’t this simple ?
And you should do some test yourself, just use a march with 20% attack item vs 20% HP item and let the same march attack you when you marching, just look at turn 1, white number, only turn 1 is accurate as there would be no talent influence the result, you will see the diff where HP one is a lot better and same time white number matters, whoever wins the white number whoever mostly wins. Basically you are talking about a situation that only your skill land on others but other people skill dmg won’t land on you, if that’s the case surely attack is the best, but it is not possible.
Hi Xi. I appreciate the comment, but I think you missed the point. Your comment assumes the player only cares about positive trades, but I don't care about positive trades. I care about maximizing damage to the enemy so I can clear the field. To be clear, I am not advising "go all attack" but I am saying that there are situations where attack should be considered and by and large the community has said "attack is always bad." That just isn't true. And yes, your total health can be higher than your total defense, especially on cav marches with Nevsky. I can prove it.
@@PsychOutROK you as individual don’t have to care about positive trade as it is your choice, but having a higher attack and less HP means exactly you will NOT be able to clean up enemy. How can you expect to clean up enemy in a faster way when you have a negative trade ?
You can only clean up enemy faster when overall trade is in favor of your camp / kingdom. It is simple math, when you are giving up health means you are dealing higher skill dmg and same time you will receive higher skill dmg and the extra amount dmg you can deal is obviously less than the amount of dmg enemy will deal on you.
I wonder what is the situation you have in your mind, but it sounds very contradicting to me.
And won’t matter of total health is higher on nevskey or not, as the equipment is not only made for Nevsky, maybe he will be retired some point, so making HP equipment is always good tho in my opinion. Calvary has only helm and glove adding def, so the struggle is only to make a def glove or a HP glove, ATK is out of equation anyways.
I am a sort of high spender and max my crystal tech every Kvk, and doing quite a lot of kills every KVK. To me, it is always to survive first then do dmg which reduce the number of times I need to refresh troops and etc. to all players everyone would always be in a situation that you are overwhelmed, the fight is hard, you always want to maintain an overall positive trade so you will burn enemy out, HP equipment is always the choice. To me, there is no situation that you would need attack equipment, I crafted the attack ones when they were introduced in old days but I already recycled material, and made HP items. If people still making attack legendary today, then it is really wasting materials.
@@xiwang4275 I think you are over-generalizing what I actually said. I'm not saying you should go all in on attack and have lower health. I have a battle formula calculator and fully understand your point about having fewer troops and how it impacts the total fight. What I am saying, is that there are situations where attack is the right play, and people don't realize it because they blindly say "health, health, always health."
Great video bro !! So in your opinion what current marches do you think would do good with more attack gear ??
marches with a lot of counter attack. like Attila and Pakal should benefit from attack.
@@monkeyrun ahh ok good to know thank you brother
Actually, I would advise marches with lots of AoE, with less concern about counter-attack damage. We learned from the A/T saga that stacking attack isn't the best on that march...it already has a ton of attack and adding more attack has diminishing returns. To be clear, I'm not saying all marches should stack attack, but certain marches would do better with attack gear. For example, common advice is the Guan/Scipio should use the blue gatekeeper's shield. I think it would be better off with a Sakura Fubuki. It does a lot of AoE and in murderball situations it will do better with more attack boosting that AoE. Nevsky/Joan (as mentioned in the video) is probably better off with some attack pieces. The thing is, it partly depends on what city skins you have, what tokens you are using, the exact nature of your equipment, etc. And it is all going to get more complicated with Relics.
@@PsychOutROK very detailed my friend I appreciate your work and take it all in
I believe attack has better value in non kvk events like cerolli or even Olympia where time is limited and rewards those who does more damage as mvp. But in kvk health and defence is better since it offers more sustain and there you are able to retain troop counts
Surely attack has more value in the PVE events. Health and Defense (often) mean better trades, but getting a better trade in PVE or events that don't create a hospital (like Olympia) is useless. But the big picture here is not even really about better trades, it's about clearing the field.
with that said..... the blue shield and purple pants of INF are even more valuable as there aren't any other ways for a Guan march to get health besides pairing Scipio or Leo. But even pairing with them, the pairs are still like way more atk & def than health that you can get.
Actually, I think the Guan/Scipio march should use an attack weapon. But trading positive isn't always my goal, clearing the field often is.
With infantry 1. Make legendary 2. If you can make def legendary make the def one otherwise use attack. Blue and Purple are only transient for F2P early stage
Interesting. Actually i ve made my personnal way of evaluating my choices.
I give pts to each kind of stat: health is 2, def is 1.5 and attack is 1.
So if i have to choose between 8% health or 12% attack, i d go for health as its 16 vs 12, but if i have to choose between 8% def or 12% attack, as it is 12 vs 12 i will consider other things like secondary stats available and the actions i want to do with that troop ( rally, garrison, open field,... aoe akso entering in the considerations)
It's a reasonable guideline to follow, but my point here is that what is best really depends on the specific commanders, your other gear, your city skin, etc.
As someone who recently watched some of ur videos i suggest u show some real life testing. Like have some 2-3 PPL and use ur Joan + Nev with attack equipment to attack marches in AOE range and then followed by health focused equipment. I appreciate what you think but without report's it holds less meaning.
It does not need reports 🤦♂️ the basic argument that attack is better when you aoe us not rocket science .... and frankly every good player who is a little on the nerdy sides knows this very well. But the real complications is that you need to be sure that you take less skill damage than you do. Normally this is easy to do if you control one or two marches. but not so much when you going in hard with 5+ marches.
But to make it simple for you, ysg hitting 5 targets for example does a total of "i think 240%-260% forgot the exact number" of his actual damage in total to all 5 targets. In otber words his attack value per skill cycle hit is more than doubled. Now if you run ysg you with an archer march you see that clearly when his second skill activates. It seems to provide more damage than a ring of doom proc in aoe scenario.
With that being said, even people knowing this will also tell you this info does not hold much value, because for 1 you then will need to have 1 gear equipped for this scenario and another for "that"
For 2 most people can't craft both gears. For 1 troop type they have a long journey before they reach there.
@@ryanforgo3500 correct but I need to know like how much is the difference. Even i know what he is saying is true but I need number!
I'd love to do that, although I'm not so sure I have the right equipment available to do the testing. Crafting gear is expensive...
Xy honda es bueno ?dicen que honda hace resistir a xy in pvp?
Si, es muy bueno. solía usar esa marcha.
Even if you max tech in kvk you only get about 40% of a tax stats less than 50 anyway. so we all jumped in and say put defense and health on your gear. if you’ve been playing for sometime you’re going to have quite a bit more than 40% of defense and health in gear. My point is that you no longer need to worry about decreasing marginal returns if you add attack. So, in a roundabout way, I’m saying, I agree attack is underrated.
This is the first time ever i hear that attack increases skill damage, do you have proof to back this up? Ok done some tests and i can see that the attack affects the skill damage. But we go back again to how much attack you're getting from KVK tech so still health is the lowest stat, in order to increase your skill damage you need to add more health.
İn terms for Cavs i agree since equipment are giving too much health you need to add defense. But infantry equipment adds a lot of defense so you need to buff health
I get what you are saying, but if you do the math -- like I did -- on certain marches and certain combinations, you find that attack has more value than people currently think.
@@PsychOutROK that might be correct, but not in KVK. Spending all those materials on attack buffing equipment is too expensive
@@abedonly I included KVK tech in the calculations my man. I have several videos where I show my battle calculator and how it works. I get what you are saying, but you aren't doing the actual analysis. If you do the analysis correctly, you too will see that on certain marches -- during KVK -- there is value in attack pieces. Not all attack pieces. Just certain pieces on certain marches. Nevsky + Joan is one clear example.
Chisgule made the advice
Lmao
If you have aoe skill types as f2p, attack is best. in short, in real field fight, the situations when you need health and defence (targetted / swarmed) you must run or get wrecked anyway. they are stats that you dont really put/ want to utilize cause it means you getting wrecked. atleast with attack, you can do damage to alot without damage to you. that's how you fight at a disadvantage. dont do what whales do, youre gonna lose in that ball game.
This is not how the formula works. You need to consider in the damage formula how many troops you song with attack stats give you damage (simplified). When you get hit and are all attack you lose troops way faster which in turn destroys you’re damage output calculation. Strangely enough adding health stats to you’re marches will actually make you do higher damage for longer than adding attack stats since you will have more troops longer.
@@jeffreyvescera9840 We know how the formula works. and how having more remaining troops will make you do more damage after a while. this is about how you fight in real open field. you dont wanna utilize health and defense because it means youre getting wrecked. better run (IT IS AN OPTION).
Attack stats, you always use (and want to use). This is for AOE which is how you should go for f2ps.
Are you still making videos? You got some good stuff.
I stopped playing RoK in the spring of 2023, so I no longer keep up with the meta or any other game mechanics. Thus, I don't make videos about it any more.
Ah bummer. Well thanks for the ones you made. Appreciate some of these break downs. Is there a way to get access to that excel sheet you made?
@@c.j.reynolds512 I tried to turn it into a Google sheet but so many of the formulas fell apart. There are some advanced functions that seem to work for excel but not for sheets...though I'm no sheets expert.
Bro why no more videos 🙁
Hey sorry. I quit playing RoK a while back and didn't want to make a dramatic scene about it.
defense also increases skill damage, there was a test a while back on the cav stable discord that proved it
Where's that at?
No sorry. While you are right that higher attack boosts the damage output of a march. And when hitting multiple targets the value of attack scales up. What You seem to forget is that the damage mitigating effects of health and defense reduce the number of damage and sev wounds u take. And that taking AOE damage from multiple sources also scales up the value of health and defense…
And these two balance each other out. What you should be aiming for is a balanced out commander stat wise. So u look at stats from technology, kvk tech, commander skills, skill trees, gear, etc. And then see where your commander is lacking.
From my experience in a kvk scenario, on a high skill damage march, for a T5 player, having 2% attack gives about the equal value than 1.4% defense and 1% health. This is a rough rule of thumb. So when I decide on gear upgrades, this helps me make the best choices.
This is purely based on a kvk scenario. In the home kingdom during the off season, there is no crystal tech heavily boosting attack. There you will see that this ratio is slight different and attack gives more value compared to the kvk scenario. Here 2% attack is about equal to 1.55% defense and 1.15% health (and for example the purple talented inf sword performs better then blue shield).
If we would talk about events other then kvk. like race against time, cereoli, Etc. The benefit from having more attack by far outweighs the ones from extra health and def. So it’s also context specific (but most players would not craft gear specifically for that).
Anyways. Good video. I can tell you have a lot of knowledge.
Thanks for watching the video! I know what you are saying, and I'm not forgetting about the fact that if you take more damage you have fewer troops. I'm also not saying "it is time to stack attack" again. What I am saying is that there are certain times where attack is the right play, and the standard advice today is always defense/health. One really clear place where attack has more value is in AoO. When you don't care about taking good trades, when there is no SoC tech (in this scenario), attack is much more valuable than people seem to realize.
very interesting, but it needs confirming by trials.
I’d say attack is better if you have 3+ solid marches. For us people like me who really only have 1 solid march. Defense & Health is better in the field because we need the health/defense to make sure we last so reinforcements can come to help even if we are outmatched.
I think its definitely circumstantial. If you got 3+ solid marches & max tech, you will rack in kills. 1 march, you just wanna last long enough to provide support for your kingdom
We have in same kvk i am from 2402, did you know why mathematics so worth lol
Nice! I'll look for you out there on the field. Let's make it a fun one!
And now comes Smite damage 😊
Son we got chisgule gaming at home
Chisgule gaming at home:
we need actual algorithm to justify this, i heard some youtubers said the final damage taken= attack divided by the multiplication of denfense and health., and therefore to maximize the product , defense and health must be as close to each other as possible.
for example, assuming attack 200%, defense 120% health 120%, dmg taken is 200/144= 1.38, while if defense 100% health 140%, dmg taken is 200/140=1.43
The algorithms is out there. I've made a video on it and so have some others. But that is the simplified version of the equation.
So I’m confused on the new information .. so what you are basically saying attack has more value when commanders do lots of skill damage. The problem I see with this is you said there are “some situations” were this so better. We are in a massive skill damage meta. Using you’re logic attack would be better in almost every circumstance since everyone is trying to use maximum skill damage. Unfortunately this is incorrect. Attack stats still have incredibly poor diminishing returns even if slightly better with skill damage commanders. So coming full circle attack is the least valuable stat in rok since it is easiest to get all around. This was a long winded way of saying I have no new information.
Hi Jeffrey. I'm not saying if you have AoE skill damage you should stack attack. You are drawing a connection that I did not intend you to draw. There are certain commander pairings and certain situations where attack has more value. One of the reasons for that -- but not the only reason -- is AoE skill damage.
Kvk buff add 40% all damage and that mess things up too, especially for healers and tank.
Btw, Aoo has 200% attack buff I think
Actually, all damage buffs don't mess up the calculations at all because damage buffs are added after the basic computation. That is, they are a post-battle formula multiplier/scaler. I don't think AoO has an attack buff, but if you can show me I am wrong about that I will stand corrected.
@@PsychOutROK regarding the all damage buff vs healers, what i meant was the all damage buffs made healers like Richard became much less effective because the healing can't keep up with the damage, unlike before the 40% change and when those healers was first released.
The thing with healers is that they are only really effective if the heal is meaningful enough for them to sustains troop counts. In the old days, Richard stay alive forever on the field of kvk1-kvk3, even if there are saladin or alex on the field.
I really hate this buffs. Made my hospital fill faster, less time to fight, to react, to micro. A detriment to my rok open field experience.
It was a cash grab to force us to spend more to heal i think. Because they could have just given us the 40% damage buff to barbarians only.
@@tuanseattle Ah yes, I get what you are saying. I totally agree.
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