The elephant in the room with Hawthorn's strategy for 2023 - Footy Classified | Footy on Nine
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 21. 03. 2023
- The Footy Classified panel dissects Hawthorn's plans for 2023.
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Jimmy Bartel looks so fed up with Damo and Sam đ
Not as fed up as we are. Absolute germs.
Its always the blokes that have never played a senior game who talk to most dribble.
This is difficult viewing. It's round 2 and these two are accusing Hawthorn of tanking for draft picks. You can disagree with the strategy, but attributing malice is unnecessary.
@@lukeskelton6479 they were talking about STK & Silvagni getting DeKoning or McKay or someone from the Blues before the season even started. End of season trade rumours pre round one is where these clowns are at.
Haha that is what footy class is. It's AFL gossip, politics, tripe and trash.
Sam has to be the biggest flog employed for Footy on Nine, absolute clown
or caro
Nah, that would be Damo + TJ
100 percent correct.
I will see your Sam and raise you a Caroline Wilson and Matthew Lloyd
A lot of people forget that Geelong did a full rebuild after 2001. They kept some older players. But the word finals was even banned by Bomber Thompson for years. They never bottomed out but they did urge supporters to be patient. Jimmy Bartel was part of that build which is probably why he understands the strategy
Geelong have never finished lower than 12th, and there were 16 teams into 2001, so they definitely didn't come close to bottoming out
Jimmy Bartel is a breath of fresh air in the FON panel
Bartel is spot on
If Hawthorn kept those 3 or 4 senior players mentioned, they might have won an extra game this season. If those players were that good that they'd push Hawthorn towards a finals spot, then they'd still be on the list.
This season will be very ugly for Hawthorn, but it is needed and Mitchell should be given the opportunity to see this rebuild out.
If they do sack him, he's welcome to come back to West Coast and take over from Simmo
I'm glad Tom Mitchell was given away, because he waltzed right into our doors at Collingwood.
Love hearing Sam bumble his words, great stuff đ
Wtf it's been one game đ
What tf is damo talking about, Mitchell does not win us a single extra game this year and arguably does more harm to Worpelâs development if he stays. Our cap is also so empty that we need to pay part of Mitchellâs salary or we fall below the cap floor. And regardless, how does any of that constitute tanking?
They legit said they want to get rid of some experience to help the current crop develop and the younger ones learn off of them instead of the older ones generally when the words ârebuilding phaseâ are usually
constitutes tanking .
To get the best possible pick and itâs known that they want Harley Reid only way to get him is to get pick 1, but 6 teams will have 3 1st round picks this year 2 this year and a future 1st so if Hawks want to rebuild faster they will most likely trade pick 1 with one of the: Dons, Giant, Dees, Swans or Dogs.
Given this year itâs a super draft they could do what they did in 03â Or what the bombers did in 2019 and get 3 top 10 picks!
â@@kyalking1313I don't think we're tanking hey?
Cool the jets Damo. Itâs round 1 champ.
Just remember Gunston left of his own accord we wouldâve liked to keep him
Mitchell, O'Meara and Gunston and Shiels do not make us contenders (as evidenced last year), and are all extremely talented players that would play every week they're available and take game experience off multiple young players who are fresh into the development system. I'd rather see DGB, Day, Newcombe, Mackenzie, Weddle and Ward get games and experience in the AFL. I said this on another post, we did the same thing with players like Hodge & Franklin and it worked out really well. They had a horrible game last week, but they'll improve for sure. We've won 3 in the last decade... Trust the process.
Yes you can get games into youngsters but you still need experienced players around them to guide them. It's not about Mitchell,shield and such making hawthorn contenders. It's about being mentors to younger players.
@@troyjackson9743 Yes, maybe they cut it a bit deep in terms of that⊠but also arguably a lot of their true older champions were already gone. McEvoy retired, theyâve still got Breust and some young but experienced players like Hardwick, Sicily. Hawthorn have a great development program and a professional framework for building a team from the ground up to Last for a decade. I think theyâll be fine.
Putting omeara in that sentence is way too kind
Things fell perfectly into place for Hawthorn though. Sure, their picks turned out to be good, but there was no free agency back in 2005, plus the league expanded in 2011 and 2012 at a time when Hawthorn was coming into their peak. Other up and coming teams couldn't get better because the top draftees were going to GC and GWS. Hawthorn also had the benefit of free agency coming into 2013 to top up. Once Collingwood, Geelong and St Kilda dropped off, that's when Hawthorn started winning flags.
There's no guarantee this rebuild will work out and Mitchell likely won't be the coach when they win their next premiership.
@@Not1Dimensional They also beat Geelong in 08, definitely snuck one in before their true window for sure. But I get what youâre saying. Things worked out well for them. My belief is that after creating a premiership club culture from management and development, it helps set the club up for future generations. GWS and GC have obviously not had the benefit of time to achieve this yet. Also working into Hawthornâs favour again is that there are (currently) no expansion teams so picks will fall to them.
Thereâs never a guarantee in sport, thatâs the fun of it. Mitchell might work out horrible, players might get injured and never see the light of day. But as a diehard Hawks fan, Iâm perfectly okay with what theyâve done when handling this club (minus the way they handled Clarksonâs out, and from rumours⊠Rioli).
What the hell are they even talking about? Hawks are just trying to build a list that is capable of sustained success.
Omeara and mitchell both struggled to get a touch last year
Here we go, Damo with his hot takes after one game. Hawthorn already âtankingâ. The Hawks were really competitive in all bar 4-5 games last season and Mitchell continually says thereâs no ceiling on our progress. You cannot tank in round 1.
Not Damos point. His point is the list was culled to bottom. I dont agree but that is his point not win loss ratio.
No but the tank is on - Sydney should have at least brought flowers and dinner before giving the rogering it did.
â@@sithlordofozAre we still tanking?
Difference between pick 1-6 is massive
Ridiculous comment
First time I've really enjoyed hearing Bartel talk, made complete sense, unlike Sam who frames everything as "many ppl" or "lots of ppl" are talking, taking the cowards way out instead of having the plums to say "I think..." Only 3 players that left were in their best 22 anyway, and one of them, Gunston, chose to leave. Mitchell, O'Meara and Shiels were the only senior players of note cut, and Shiels was on the edge of the 22 anyway. Last couple years they were criticizing Hawks for not bringing in enough youngsters.
Youngest team in the competition in literally the first game of the season! Must be tanking lolâŠ
These guys whinge no matter what. They criticise my eagles for not cutting old guys and then criticise the Hawks for doing that.
I'm more bothered by the fact they were letting massive scores through in the pre-season but somehow their 2nd best defender/intercept player (Scrimshaw) isn't in the side.
He has been injured. Should be back this week
Tanking isn't well defined and that's part of the problem (Gil's quote on it is evidence of that). When Melbourne was accused of tanking (2009?) it was playing players in unexpected decisions. The problem is, if you're a club on the ropes, you're playing a game that means nothing in the greater context, you experiment and might do unusual things. When top sides rest players before finals (I remember Freo doing it under Lyon, I think) we're ok with it - even though they're putting a team on the park knowing they can (and sometimes even thinking they will) lose - and it's at odd's with Gil's quote "...talks to performing on merits and the best of their ability..." - perhaps Gil is suggesting it's at the individual level (if you're named to play, then you play as well as you can) - but in that case none of it is tanking....
Short Version: AFL not good at defining things....surprised?
100%
The AFL wasn't happy with what Lyon did by resting players before the finals (unless you're talking about the general fan consensus). That's the reason we have an extra week break between the regular season and finals.
Every team that bottoms out is tanking to a degree itâs naive to think ptherwise
Crows 2018-19: Clean out over 18 senior players from the 2017 contending year
Damo: Nothing wrong here
Hawks 2022: Clean out 4-5 senior players
Damo: TaNkInG
The definition of tanking is to intentionally lose games, e.g. if a coach tells his players to play to lose. Rebuilding a team with young players is not tanking! Don't worry Panellists if you are sincerely worried about Hawthorn culture or strategy there is no need to worry as the Hawks faithful are fully committed and fully support Sam and the plan. Great to see Footy Classified actually got someone (Jimmy Bartel) on the show who knows what they are talking about. As a Hawks fan I hate Jimmy B however I do respect him as a player and his outlook of the game.
Can't stand McClure but I think he is right about the benefits of tanking. It's not like the NBA where if you get pick 1, it can completely alter your team. Now that there are no priority picks, finish last or 15th really makes no difference.
If Mitchell had his way he wouldâve cut deeper!!!! And what people forget is that with free agency and not the old priority pick system still in place itâs much harder to climb back up!!!!
I look forward to contenders picking the cream of Hawthorns kids for a decade. What goes around comes around
Hawthorn have a clear plan to pick up Harley Reid in the 2023 draft. The only reason why you would strip so much quality experience from your list is when you aim to "win" the spoon. That is a form of tanking, albeit in a legal way. Harley Reid is supposed to be an absolute generational talent you can build future premiership sides on, particularly when they have already been collecting a bunch of talented high draft picks over a number of years. I'm sure the board has signed off on this and Mitchell's job is absolutely safe for the coming couple of years. Supporters are mostly focussed on the now, so won't be very happy about how their club is going about this.
Bro, did you hear what you just wrote? Taking is illegal in any sport in any form if proven you are punished đ€Šââïž.
@@kyalking1313 Comprehension and English aren't strong points for you, are they> Firstly, you can't HEAR what you READ. Secondly, I specifically state that stripping the list of most of its quality experience is a LEGAL form of tanking.
I love scrolling through this comment section to so oh so many incorrect people
@@MaxKerstappen You are correct and I have totally underestimated how good Hawthorn have become in such a short period of time with such an inexperienced list. Credit to the recruiters and Mitchell. You're definitely playing finals next year. I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong.
@@gustaaf1892 W. I have trouble admitting when I'm wrong. So W
Comparing Collingwood to Hawthorne a team that had Jeremey Howe Steel Sidebottom, Scott Pendlebury have alot more experience than this current Hawthorn team.
Hawk's have won 4 flags since it went national in 1992. Can't fault that. U got 15 other sides lagging behind on zero ,1 or 2 flags.
Richmond lol
Seems bartel has come to terms with Geelong pushing him out
He wasn't pushed out?
@@jeremybean-hodges6397 guess he could have played a year in the vfl
I don't like Hawthorn but that's not tanking. Mitchell is on his last legs. Deliberately not picking players or playing them out of position late in the season is tanking. It won't help Hawthorn anyway. The rote has already set in.
Yeah this aged well. What đ€Ąs
as the AFL seems to insist on imitating the structure of the NFL they need to accept the notion of tanking in the game as it's considered essential for an NFL franchise return to the top. They just accept it as part of the return to the top see Carolina v Houston last season. It's only the true pinheads in the AFL journalism field squawk about it.
What's the point of being mediocre for years on end? Look at Roos, Saints, Blues & Bombers. For 15 years they've all come roughly 6th-14th and never look like they could even challenge for a flag, sometimes you just gotta clear house and start again. Hawks built their premiership squad and got 3 flags from it, there's only 1 team that consistently stays on top and that's Geelong, everyone else has to bottom out at some point to go back upwards.
Geelong will bottom out in the next year or so, too
It's not like they let a hodge type leader go
Many comments miss that getting rid of so many great older plyers at once takes away a heap of mentorship and paaing on of culture and even Leigh Matthews doesnât think its working but yes, I would far prefer no Sam McLure
Hang on. The Sun's traded a first pick and a midfielder the premiers told would play for them to the Cats and we tanking? Hmmmmmm.... Please explain?
They are tanking who cares? They want Harley Reid. Donât blame them
I mean, Hawthorn needs to be very patient with how it manages its rebuild. It is very possible that this can go both ways.
The AFL needs to seriously consider this first round draft pick for a bottom team nonsense. Haven't we learnt yet from the Melbourne debacle those many years ago?
DO they not realise the Game Plan will have to be tweaked , People may be played out of position etc
Iâve seen this movie before and it only ends one way. With lots of big losses, sacked coaches and players delisted without ever living up to their potential. Thereâs not a side in history that has cut as deep as Hawthorn have that donât subsequently go through years and years of terrible underachievement. Melbourne did it, Carlton tried it next. North then had a go at it and finally the hawks are having their turn. It only goes one way.
Lets hope so đ
The one game analysis wonders
Thanks jimmyđđ»Damien and Sam are just media grubs
So, now?
You cannot ban strategy???? What the??
This hawks cleanout means the 2017-21 rebuild failed?
I donât know how âDamoâ can bag any side after Northâs effort last year. Pulp fiction filling up a time slot.
I donât have a problem with tanking at allâŠ. You get players to have ops that they need anyway, hold some back to develop in the VFL, trade 28 year olds that have some value, and most likely finish bottom four, and lose some sponsors and members, for the top young picks, and that needs at least 3-4 years in the bottom four, and VERY good list management, and of course holding those young blokes for the next 6 yearsâŠit can work, but not always, itâs hard to hold players for 6 years, while finishing in the bottom part of the ladderâŠ
Another win for North R3 then.
Simple fix,
Make it a draft lottery for 1st overall pick for teams missing the 8
Or, if people think that's rigged, make it 9th gets 1st overall, 10th gets 2nd and so on and so on so teams will fight to improve
Lottery system with the later finishing teams having more entries to the ballot
Bang on - employ a weighted lottery system like the NHL.
As a cats fan, I love this!!
As a Dees fan Iâm right with you!
Well as a hawks fan I quite enjoyed last night lol
Imagine if one of us see sam at a pub
Why is Damo on TV?
Tanking has already showed that it doesn't work anyway. Every club that has tanked has killed their culture and did not taste glory.
Melbourne
@@thedownunderverse If you're talking recent years, they didn't tank. They had picks around the #4-5 mark and chose wisely, then naturally progressed. They did tank in that 2008 era where they got multiple wooden spoons/priority picks but those never eventuated to anything but a decade of culture decay. Look back at the last 10-15 years of those that had a sustained period of success and actually took home what everyone plays for (flag), Geelong, Hawthorn, Sydney, Collingwood, Bulldogs, Eagles, Hawthorn, Richmond, did any of them systematically tank or did they invest in their development, game plan and trade for needs? The statistics say the latter.
So basically your saying donât bet on any games that hawthorn play on
Cheers for the update
No, heâs saying to bet against them đ
Draft systems in any code of sport reward mediocrity and encourage tanking in dead rubbers.
Any football administrator who discourages fielding the best team in any and all circumstances should not keep their job.
Hawks are 100% tanking for the # 1 pick this year but they are not the first team to do it as a result of list management decisions designed to bottom out and build a list.
Aged like milk this comment
Looked pretty good for the first half, lack of pressure and experience cost us in the second. Club seriously lacking a quality key forward with Mitchell Lewis out. With a decent target up front could have easily been a more competitive match. Bring Sicily forward and get Scrimshaw back to shore up as the 3rd key.
They looked ok against essendon, who is also a bottom 6 team. They will have to play some decent opposition this week vs sydney
If you don't have experienced players mentoring young guys, the young guys won't develop or grow to a premiership winning level
The other issue with Hawthorne tanking is the clubs which get them twice get 8 points. Can affect the 8.
Aged well didn't it this comment? I don't think we're tanking at all
@@MaxKerstappen fairish call. Two of your wins v skippies and one v Weagles who turned out worse. The wins v Collingwood and Brisbane were stellar.
@@sithlordofoz and saints
I donât normally agree with Damo but heâs right. Mitchel is ranking. Heâs come out openly and said he wants this years number 1 Harley Reid being the next biggest thing. He also said that clubs that donât capitalise on the draft now will be doomed for the next 3-4 years because of the influx of the TAS team. Heâs cut every major experience talent out of the list to do this. Reeks of TANKING to me
No the club did an analysis on the playing list and and decided the players that they moved on wont be playing when the rest of the list has developed enough to contend for a flag so they traded them to get something in return for them instead of wasting them in a developing side and then getting no value out of them
One week, how you tell if a team is tanking LOL , have to judge after round 10 where Hawks are in the season.
Need sunglasses for these blinding insights.
GWS has always had some 'serious talent' so much so that have never been able to retain them all financially.
They are stuck on a Merry-go-round of losing players they have developed for high trade pics..................but still losing more games than winning.
Going for ALL young players that can 'build together' does not work as players will leave for better deals (SUNS, GWS)
They need to 'mix' up their player list with high end talent and everyday workhorses, with a mix of ages.
Letâs see how Hawks play vs Swans!!!
Ugly
Hawthorn have won 11 wooden spoons.Surely the club has more pride than to want to win a 12th.
bartel the only one with a brain
Tanking
Are you kidding. If thatâs case I the eagle and Brisbane are tanking to đđ
Please get rid of Sam
You'll be a FOOL to question/doubt Sam Mitchell.
Messiah
Even if you're a Hawks fan you have to admit they did cut the list too deep they aren't trying to win for the now and yes it's a form of tanking & I don't think it helps you in the long run because takes ages to get back, you do forget how to win & it's way better being a contender & never bottoming out like Cats & Swans. always seem to be up there.
Oh shush u as a Richmond supporter should know better.... unless u joined later when they got good
so ironic saying that as a richmond supporter considering the fact for the last 25 years richmond have cleaned out and dropped 4 times since
It's not tho is it. Look at how we're going. Beating the pies, saints, bulldogs, dee's. Teams are scared to verse us now
I think the AFL should look at relegation. Like the EPL
Yes. I have heard this suggested by a number of commenters on youtube. It seems like a good idea however what are the negatives? Have you heard of any in the EPL?
@@TheDirge69 I think it would be the money đ°.
So we have to put up with Sam for another year? đ
Unfortunately yes. He moves around quite a lot so hopefully heâs on local Gippsland radio by the end of the season.
no one has to just don't watch! lol
Mitchell? Or Mclure??
Damo is the perfect example of an AFL journalist with no experience playing the game and zero intuition with his opinions. Things happen, his opinions change as they unfold.
Damos
Just a shock jock
trying to get cheap clicks by manufacturing controversy
I'm a one eyed Hawk member nearly 30 years and it's crazy that we dumped so many players. MiItchell to the Pies and he' ll help them win a flag while we pay him to play there. Ridiculous.
I hear you hawker
I am hawk supporters 58 years
Its going to be a long year
Love Sam Mitchell
But His coaching ?
i dont see it yet
I think he got a wake up call
The game plan is an absolute shocker
Its garbage
Lose possession & its a goal
Its a sieve
Its Unsustainable
Theres virtually no defensive aspect to it at all
Even No tackling
A game plan that badky lacks enough discipline, systems & role playing to function
The game plan needs to keep you in the game & give you a chance to win
whilst you gain experience & learn
A squad will have some average players
Mitchells game style doesn't allow for average players
Essendon has played like this for years
You must have a plan that allows to win in all game conditions & absorb injuries through out the marathon season
A plan that allows for the average players in the squad to slot in & play a role & win
Hate to compare
But
That was Clarksons genius
The 2008 side had a lot of average players & beat a brilliant mature determined Geelong in 2008
Its going to be a long year
& a wooden spoon at the end of it
Tongues will be wagging after round 3
When we lose to North a team that won 2 games last year & now coached by Clarkson
â@@cweatherfella547 He appears to be a good coach now
@@MaxKerstappen
He's learning & corrected some poor coaching
but there's a long way to go yet matey
We have won 6 games & will finish 16th
Get back to me when we make finals
When ever that will be
@@cweatherfella547 see you next season â€ïž
You only worked this out now.....get with it and wake up
These billy goats have no clue. Go and ask the blokes that are running out the ground if they are tanking. As far as the racism stuff goes, I am pretty sure that if there was something to see we would have seen it by now !
Spot on damo
Who's gonna be in hawthorns next premiership.. um yeah well they prob haven't been born yet
If you look at the premiership teams over the last 15 yrs with the exception of Geelong and sydney
All the teams have bottomed out completely to win premierships takes roughly 7-10 yrs to get the full cycle
2021 Melbourne terrible early 2010s
2020 2019 2017 richmond terrible late 2000s and early 2010s
2018 wce terrible late 2000s early 2010s
2016 dogs terrible late 2000s early 2010s
2013-2015 hawks terrible early mid 2000s
2010 Collingwood terrible early 2000s
Why wouldn't you go down this path cut back as much as you can and have the best talent coming in together
Dogs and West Coast never really bottomed out.
Dogs terrible in late 2000s/early 2010s? They made the PF three years running from 2008-2010.
West Coast did have two bad years (2008, 2010) but timed the latter terribly due to the entry of the Gold Coast.
Collingwood made 3 prelims in early 2000âs
Hawks won a flag in 2008
There have been clubs who have bottomed out and not won a flag.
@@jeremybean-hodges6397 yeah late 2000s probably isn't right for the dogs they were more 2012-2014 where they were finished bottom 4-5
Agree with most of what you said
I am a hawk
If your club has strong competent management solid systems recruiting on point & coach tough as nails
& most people including players are of good character
Like geelong & sydney are you can go ok as they have proven
Clarkson was on that path again with Hawthorn but had a falling out with the management
Reeves & Kennett
Pulled the old we are in charge not you
So they got rid of him
North will finish higher on the ladder than hawthorn & will win a flag sooner than hawthorn
Sam had to bring in the racism crap
Sam and damo,,, absolute bottom feeders
Hawthorn is tanking. Hawthorn does not want to win in 2023 they want the 1st Draft Pick.
Is Sam on drugs? He doesn't seem right at all?
Iâd love if the hawks got the number 1 pick only to lose it by being banned from the draft for the investigation đđ
sam mclure đ€ź