China Cycling on Factor's New Factory, Cheap Carbon Lay-Ups and Counterfeit Frames
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- Counterfeit frames, main stream brands using open mould design and the cycling industry is BOOMING in China. Just some of the topics we discuss with Cycling insiders, CZcamsr and owner of Panda Podium online retail outfit, Joe Whittingham.
Chapters:
00:00 intro
00:23 What Is An "Open Mould"?
08:22 Does Carbon Lay Up Matter?
13:08 Froome's Tour Of Factor Factory
17:27 Chinese Groupsets in 2024
24:10 Counterfeit Frames
33:20 Who's Buying From China?
40:31 Chinese Market Booms!
46:45 China Cycling CZcams
1:00:01 Hottest Items On Panda Podium
1:05:25 Avoiding Industry Snipers
Check Out Panda Podium: www.pandapodium.cc
Grab A nero kit: nero-club.myshopify.com
Footage courtesy of
@ChinaCycling
@chris-froome
SUBSCRIBE On CZcams: bit.ly/2gMWc1t
The Nero Show is available on your favourite Podcast platform
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Apple Podcasts:
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INSTAGRAM: @chrismiller27 @nerocontinental
TWITTER: @chrismiller @nerocontinental
STRAVA: / strava
Check Out Jesse's Coaching: www.nero.club/coaching - Sport
I was out sick for a few days and only now seeing this. Thanks once again for the fellows for having me on. Also, reading these comments has me feeling a lot better. Thanks for the love fam.
Thank the One True God and absentee single parent of baby Jesus for inventing the carbon wheel!
Are you a Stourbridge boy, Joe?
@ChinaCycling when it comes to the Chinese/Taiwan cycling industry you’re No 1 by a million miles. Good luck with everything you do.
PS I’d love to know how you ended up in China. If you have a minute . . .
8:30 mark - Thanks for the shout out gentlemen! This is the only cycling podcast I tune in for each week. The dynamics between you two work very well and make for exciting discussions.
How's Mom doing? She doesn't call anymore.
@@goldenretriever6261 Holidays keeping her busy
@@PatrickLino oh wow it was a genuine question. thought golden retriever was having a go at you.
Just wanted to say that your interviewing skills were great. You let Joe give full, very insightful answers without interrupting him, and kept it all flowing very nicely. Most professional journalists could learn a thing or two from this episode.
Joe is awesome. A working-class kid from the UK, with a big idea who brought it to life.
I'm pretty risk-averse when it comes to life decisions or business decisions, so this has all been a step by step process. But... couldn't be happier.
@@ChinaCycling I can see that. However, what is more risky than starting business in a communist country? I'd say the risks you do take are managed quite well.
@@user-cx2bk6pm2f communist in name only.
Next level. Nero is THE cycling podcast. Nero playing chess, everyone else is checkers. Fantastic discussion!
❤️
I think Joe has found a niche in that he's made himself into a curator of what's good. He has plenty of product options and he's found the ones he likes. So Panda Podium is a good reflection of his preferences. He doesn't need to pretend to like something to sell it. He's already figured out what he likes and that's why he's selling it.
Pretty much sums it up! :) I like it, and I think you'll like it, so I stock it.
@@ChinaCyclingwhich rims do you recommend as best quality? I notice you dont sell rims - only wheels
Really dig Joe's ethics and how he thinks and works. Honest, genuine and open. Kudos and much respect.
Dig the conversation NCC!!.
Best cycling podcast hands down, Cade’s seem a bit formulaic, this one is for the boys
I'm *over Cade's channel... 🙄 The *NeroShow is where it's at!!
#RobbArmstrong
Ten Lists Every Cyclist Should Know!!!
More like The Mild Ones *yawn*
Sadly Cade is hampered by working with a sidekick who is clueless
@@harrybbbb 🤣🤣🤣
#RobbArmstrong
Thanks for interviewing Joe. I am a long-time follower of China Cycling. Joe and Luke are certainly doing the everyman a great service. Not everyone who cycles is a dentist, lawyer or doctor.
Really good to hear a truly genuine bike nerds and lovers, getting right to the points and talking truth! Spot on guys!
This is the best cycling podcast on planet earth. You guys have been growing so much and in the right direction! Keep it up booooys
Can't believe your content keeps me interested for over an hour. New info I don't get anywhere else, funny, and Hambini recommended! Passes all the tests.
Fantastic show, Joe is always amazing. Congratulations to the Nero show and both of you on not just another great show but on a fabulous 2023! Congrats also on the shout-out from Hambini on his year-end review/2024 predictions show!! With Panda Podium and what Joe is doing, for me, it comes down to trust. As an avid cyclist I have a lot of excitement over the influx of products and tech from the Far East markets, however, the trust factor is always the question. Joe brings that trust to the process, that is why I have purchased from Panda Podium and why I will return and encourage others to support him.
Thanks for your custom, and thanks for spreading the love.
This episode made a subscriber out of me. I'm a consumer of Chinese frames. My third is on the way (for a permanent smart trainer mule.) My road and gravel bikes are both built on Chinese "open mold" frames. Speaking specifically of my gravel frame, I've identified it as being available under 12 or 15 different brand names. It never occurred to me before watching this episode that these other versions of my frame might actually be distinct from mine, beyond the obvious variations (accessory mounts, bottom bracket standard, fork selection, etc.). Maybe the boutique brand selling the frame for three times what I paid for mine is actually selling a differentiated product (beyond the obvious customer service benefits. Thanks for this. Keep up the great work, guys.
The Chinese brands are exposing the Western brands as overpriced
I think early on that the guest said that even open mold layups may be laid up in an inferior way, so one has to be careful about this aspect.
Love this podcast/interview. It’s from interviews like this that make we warm to the idea of new brands aside from the big ones.
Yet another stellar Podcast guys - you keep knocking it out of the park - hot topics and great insight from ‘people’ in the know - You even have the Hambini stamp of approval - Kudos!
Really great episode. Always wondered about the "China Frames/components" . Great to hear the insight into the process and market of the Chinese and asian markets.
Love the podcast as usual. Its entertaining as much as it is educational for me. Keep up the good work. Wishing you and your families all the best for the new year!
Chris and Jesse, great job choosing guests! Above having great guests, brilliant questions and discussion, every time! Keep up the good work.
Great podcast but Joe makes it easy. He really is the man when it comes to cycling products and his story is just incredible. Moving to China is a tough gig but creating a CZcams channel and then a business is just mind blowing. Make Joe a regular. PS you two are quite good as well 😉
Great podcast, you guys did a fantastic job of letting Joe talk without interrupting. Super interesting, thank you!
They are very good at letting me waffle on :) hahaha
Hi, great episode, massive thanks to Joe being invited and so helpful , candid with his time and expertise. I believe that frames, wheels, handlebars and other small components coming from China will do ok but not the groupsets. there is absolutely no advantage going that route, Shimano and Sram offers solid choices for all budgets, you can mix and match, old and new, many are compatible between generations. No one in the right mind believes that could save everywhere, frame, components, wheels, groupset and built a competitive , reliable and high performance bike.
Totally agree. Bought Sram groupset for my latest build, had a bad caliper, my local bike mechanic has a good relationship with Seam, they exchanged it, no problem. Couldn't do that with Twoo.
Many people have already done exactly that.
These videos are great. The best insight in to the Chinese side of the bike industry I've seen. I've gone from a Chinarello 10 years ago to a SystemSix Hi-Mod and now to a Yoeleo R12 with Hypers and a Yoeleo TT bike with disc wheel. It's amazing to watch it evolve. Current crop is pretty top notch in terms of value, but there are still some differences with finishing - for example the resilience of the paint finish on a yoeleo is similar to my ribble, but miles off the cannondale.
For the value proposition I will not be building up a mainstream frame again.
Joe makes so many good points and his evolution backs up everything he does today, his relationship with Asia, China Cycling, Panda Podium, Winspace to mention few. What i admire most about him is how well he understands the audience, customer and industry in general, one amateur rider and consumer can easily listen to him, buy from him, follow him and learn a lot, there is absolutely no risk dealing with Joe, he will take care of you. Wish other will learn what it takes to make a name for yourself, build a business and gain people trust . I believe lots of innovation comes from Asia today and i am happy to hear the cycling business is booming there.
Thanks for the kind words. Me and my team are humbled.
Thank you for discussing the YT commission promo codes. I've definitely left comments about it and it's a nuanced conversation but it's become out of hand. I wish the creators offered more of their own goods to support their content.
Hard disagree on saying whatever about the manufacturers and letting them sort it in the comments. Good to see Joe had the awareness to push back on such a reckless idea and to correct what he said in the previous episode.
From a consumer's standpoint a great change in the last decade+ is the explosion of choice and brands available from China. Previously one was more limited in what was available but with that came brand related assurance and expectation of quality (Shimano, SRAM, Campy). Now? Not so much. There's too much novelty; too many unknowns. That's where third party reviewers come in. When beta quality commonly finds its way to market, determining what is, and isn't, ready for prime time can be a crap shoot. Reviewers' insights are crucial here.
Really interesting to understand the Chinese industry and market. The discussion on how the frames are constructed and the experience of the individual laying the carbon plus the size of the frame shows just how nuanced try quality vs perceived quality can be. Fascinating
One of my favorite episodes! Keep up the great work guys.
41:36 cycling in china is the new golf for the young and affluent. And they are not affected by the collapsing Chinese economy
Great explanation by Joe about the open mold and counterfeit tiers and layers, and well summarized too. I work in R&D for a big home appliance Company and deal with a bunch of chinese suppliers, and could never put in few words like that
Thanks! Some generalisation / simplification for sure... but I think it's a pretty accurate summary.
2023 has been great for the Nero show, looking forward to the 2024 content, Cervelo episode coming soon?
Another great show by you guys! Hope yall have a wonderful holidays!
Thank you! You too!
❤Always a banger episode when Joe comes on!
Seriously, Joe is our go-to product guy for research info on many products we are interested in.
Lovely content guys, way better than GCN and you guys nailed it with right kind of topics.
One of the most interesting videos Ive seen on YT, well done
Awesome episode. Love these tech heavy talks.
Excellent interview! It would be cool to see Chris or Jesse build up a bike from Panda Podium.
Pronghorn = the Danish brand. Listening to a podcast where the owner said they shared the frames/mould with a couple of other brands if i remember it correct.
Great work lads. Nero > GCN. Yes to more collaborative efforts between CZcamsrs. I BEEN saying all the different cycling content creators need to get together more often to really maximise the overall growth. Riding tides lift all boats n all that.. Have been seeing more of it happening. That's what's up!
Best cycling CZcams / Podcast.
Q: What is the best-riding Chinese bike?
A: Trigon from Taiwan
+1000 social credits
I can't begin to explain how incorrect you are with your comment
@@valiantabello i don't know whether you understood the comment or not, and the associated joke or not...
That was great guys. I've been following China Cycling since Joe started it.
Being a chinese and english speaker born from Malaysia. What china cycling saying about china cycling scene is spot on. Buying a top end bike like pinerello is like buying a limited edition hermes bag, some people ive noticed obviously doesnt work out but would pose with a Pinarello and tee shirt on ( i doubt they even have bib or jersey). And most important point was you dont see them posing/ riding with the bike after the initial post. Those brand that had planted AD in china is definitely reaping the fruits.
The facts he uncovered about counterfeit frames was so englightening. Something you can't ever come across on GCN. Thanks for asking him these questions . He came twice on PT and Hambibi show and didn't touch on this
Great job guys, well done 👍
Super interesting pod cast.
Wow, thank you, super informative, and fascinating insider perspective on changing trends in cycling. Panda Podium is bridging the east and the west in a way AliExpress, Alibaba, and direct to consumer from Asia has fallen short. The future's looking more and more exciting.
Glad it was helpful!
Have you seen Hambini's most recent video? He's an avid listener of your podcast!
Haha, just came here from Hambini.
It has his Pen's approval.
@@happydays8171who gives a f?
Super good episode. Loved it.
I have been on a Trigon and it really is super nice to ride! Would love to have one!
more of this content PLZ
LOVE IT GUYS
Loved this episode, was mega interesting.
Thanks for a great interview
Fantastic questions and insights here.
Chris, your reaction to Joe saying cycling is the new golf was much more subdued than I expected 😂
Hambini gave you a shout out in his recent vid. For sure you guys are a fav more many
A lingering thought from a comment that Joe made kinda in passing. China's Cycling Marketplace is booming vs some of the complaints "foreigners" have about the Chinese brands ie; Customer Service, Turnaround Time on Orders, etc, etc. It seems like Chinese brands have shifted their focus to domestic consumers which I'm sure is much easier to service (Same Time Zone, No language barriers, Easier Shipping, etc, etc) vs all the hoops they have to jump through to do the same transaction across the world, even if they want to - it ain't easy.
At the same time a few of the brands seem to be willing to set up traditional distribution models = local distributors & try to establish a foothold.
Will be interesting to see how this whole "Chinese" topic develops and which brands will be able to truly go global .
Listened while doing hill repeats! Not surprised that a W-Tour pro buys...they know "above all" the value of a buck. This sport is INSANE...15k bikes? Bleeding brake lines? I'd be looking for deals
Nice. Enjoyed this. Very chill. 😎
Glad you enjoyed it
Great show guys!
Hey Chris, are you regretting selling the Factor yet...? 🙃😁
Favourite show!!
Great chat!
Thanks for an excellent interview. Would be great if Panda Podium sold MTB gear, parts and bikes.
I never wanna do something "just for the sake of it" or "just for the money" ... China's MTB product scene is probably almost as strong as the road bike stuff.. so, I defo wanna get on that... but, I need someone who rides / has passion for MTB before I do. I suck off road, and wouldn't be able to properly say if a product is good or not...so... no go. Lets see what 2024 brings!
Great watching
main issue with chinese groupsets is the quality/price. e.g l-two groupset (withouth chainset) sell for 720 USD at merlin shimano 105 di2 with chainset / chain is 1000usd. what would you but ?
11:00 (mech engineer but certainly no composite expert) but a longer tube should bend more so with same layup a bigger frame should feel softer (also equal tube diameter/crosssection and width at axles and so on)
Excellent!
Did he say 'Ross"? That was my first road bike back in 1981. A Maroon chrome moly frame. 13-21 42-52 Sun Tour group set. The model was the "Paragon". I don't know how I got up the hills back then. The frame flexed so much the friction shifters would shift on me when I got out of the saddle going up steep hills.
I think it's bross
Bross is the brand. :)
After hearing what goes on in Chinese factories, why would anyone support such underhanded deviousness? To have these things happen on such large scale and be the normal way of doing business is just shitty. However, I like Joe and I'm inclined to trust the product he chooses to sell. His business model and his plan for Panda Podium is brilliant and I hope he is a huge success.
These practices aren’t unique to China, western companies in different industries are no different. If a company can increase revenue they’ll do it. If a company is willing to accept a lower quality product and sell it, that’s on them, not the manufacturer…
Awesome show
Counterfeit frame is still a thing here (I have two cheapest fake dogma f and a fake cervelo s5 on the way). Thing is i really like how these two frame looks, but i dont know who should i ask to buy a real deal and the money of building these three with 105 mechanical components and self laced wheels are cheaper than a single frame i mentioned . The real frames are expensive to begin with ,compunding that price with heavy taxes and distributors marking up the price, we are paying almost s5 frame's price for a soloist frame here. And you may need to wait a whole year to just get your hands one
Really nice genuine guy that Joe, the two yanks ain't bad either..
Gentlemen great information about these industries that confirm my beliefs about these brands.
Fascinating...
Question re western brands selling in the Chinese market: are the western brands selling within China for the same prices that are being charged within the traditional western markets?
Asian marketing is so much different than Western marketing. I see how Westerners understand so much more about an item than the Asian companies do not understand how to explain. I learned how to ask questions differently in order to receive the information I am asking for. It helps to have a Westerner living in Asia that understands the industry to explain product information to Westerners.
I think you can bring somebody like Joe who can talk on just about any topic to do with cycling or culture.
Just give joe a topic and he can do half an hour without stopping.
I do like to yap on and on... :)
Factor Taichung is solely protos and pro frames. Nothing production-production.
The Shimano 105 group set came out in 1982. Much of the line and even later evolutions must be out of patent. An Ultegra groupset design copy from the 2003 version must perform really well for most consumers.
Do you have any insight when prowheel electric groupset will emerge on the market?
Love that Jesse is in the baby room now ❤😂
Does LTWO think this gaming industry? You have customers paying full price to be beta testers? This is messed up.
EA WRC
Not to mention you can buy Shimano 105 Di2 for cheaper than electronic Ltwoo. I got everything brand new minus rotors, cassette, chain, BB and crankset for 842cad, same thing from Ltwoo (eRX) is 951cad.
Messed up, or just different?
Even in gaming it annoyed me so much I more or less quit gaming (e.g. the newer battlefields)
Cyclist used to buy highmarketed low quality items without asking much. It's they feature
Can anyone tell me how the Ceccotti bike frames are like. ? I found this brand that matches the geometry that fits me perfectly.
Any information about them would be great
The eRX groupset really needs to be cheaper. The price is way too close to 105.
There is an er9 which is pretty much the same as erX. Much cheaper and the difference is the levers are alu for the former
Re: China Cycling YT v. Panda Podium stock. I think Zero Friction Cycling and Joe/Panda are doing it right. They have integrity and vision. They sell what they’ve proven to be higher value. I trust their brands (and Nero), if they sell an item, I’m confident it does what it says on the tin
Didnt ZFC sell people some fake dura ace chains? That is what I read.
I mean if you dont know how to clean and wax a chain and are going to pay someone to do that for you then what are the odds you can spot a fake DA chain from a real one? ZFC make up their claims as they go along IMO.
I mean they dont even measure watts accurately lol.
Best show on the channel. Great to get some more insights from Joe 🫶
Glad you enjoy it!
I will be honest: I would highly consider having a Chinese mid/high-end tear frame as a race bike or a bike to travel with. I won't travel with a 14k (us) Sworks frame worldwide and risk damaging it. I would rather have a 1500-2000k frame with a mid/high tier group set for these adventures.
have a background in product manufacturing (not bikes) and for me open mould is a composite manufacturing method not a licensing model! does the bike manufacturing bubble use the term differently?!
Do they make these with different carbon layups
It doesn’t make any sense for brands to do special layup frames for Pro Tour teams… they have no problem in producing built up bikes at around 6.8kg, but most of the teams don’t see every gram as a bit deal… when you ask riders what their bikes weigh you get responses like… dunno about 7kg…7.5kg… 8kg…. whatever
This is easy to achieve on road bikes with DuraAce or SRAM Red groupsets.
Lightweight wheelsets are easier to make now that brake surfaces aren’t an issue.
Not sure why they would want you to make a frame, when the manufacturers already homologate frames based on pro teams already.
Think about it.
There are big problems producing frames that come out to 6.8kg with pedals and cages, at the pro level I assure you, every rider would take a 6.8kg bike over a 8kg if offered to them. The fact that most bikes are about "7kg…7.5kg… 8kg…. whatever" is exclusively due to disc brakes and marginally heavier group sets than 3-5 years ago, also wheels in general are heavier than ever because the peloton has moved on from tubulars to reinforced hub/spoke interfaces for disc brakes which are generally heavier.
Can anyone point me to the full version of the Froome Factor video?
It's on Chris Froome's YT channel and is titled "Everyone Loves New Bike Day!"
Magene makes pretty much all Wahoo stuff, FYI
I brought my pinarello from ally express wount do u think it is very well made I love it
You could make a video just on Mark Cavendish.
did Joe do this show within about 30 minutes of doing the Peak Torque show!?
Haha, they were recorded about 12hrs apart. :D
Scenes at the 42:43 mark is from Singapore. Not China.
Good pod cast really enjoy it but can it be less stereotyping? An Australian saying we 'Western', and saying Giant rides really well and miss leading the listener to think its a 'Western brand' when its from Taiwan which is not in the west. Joe then gives the answer Travero which is also a Taiwan brand?
900 euro's to upgrade to sram red etap AXS 12s rim brake. Do i do this or not
Its actually insane that all these brands outsourced the framebuilding and basically don't have the know-how anymore to do this themselves.
I wonder if that's the reason why prices go up. They have to pay the manufacturer, otherwise they have nothing to sell.
Thanks for a great show! If Joe was corrected by the ripped engineer from "brand x" about their frame lay up not differing from the Pro's. Why is he not allowed to mention this brands name in this video this time? Surely this would give the brand a huge marketing boost and put the stories to bed. I can't see why it should be kept a secret that the frames have the same lay up? This just leads to more conspiracy.
The guy talked to me on the basis of anonymity. (Big corporations obviously don't like their employees just talking to anyone about anything...) I respect his wishes.
Can confirm my open mould FM66 I bought for 300AUD off facebook recently is stiffer, more aero and built up lighter in the end than my 20000AUD s-works SL8 tarmac.